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9:00 PM
@ssube as a startup, most of our projects are like that - we get technical freedom. I have at least 6 different languages in my code - I make justifiable choices though.
 
I'll happily do tech support for devs in exchange.
 
I use 6to5 at work. Here:
 
6 is an awful lot.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yeah, I don't have that option on frontend stuff. Our products have to be performant on XP with IE7 and up (found out we still support 7 in one product earlier today).
 
9:01 PM
^ *2 after the first commit to production of 6to5 code I did that. So far no one noticed.
@ssube that's not frontend's fault - that's just the projects you're working on :D
 
Services are Groovy and Scala (although I demanded to use Java on the only app that's never crashed), frontend is basic JS with Underscore in place of ES5 and weird build processes (thanks to Grails, largely).
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, but CSS is silly.
 
Yeah it is, but you can work around it with flexbox, and CSS is super easy anyway.
 
We can't use flexbox.
 
@ssube I like Scala, why would you demand Java? (Unless it's old) Scala has been nothing but stable for us - in fact I only touched scala again recently because the scala we had was so stable we didn't touch it in a year.
@ssube again - that's a problem with your tech stack and requirements - not frontend. Also CSS is easy anyway :P
Compared to doing other programming stuff HTML and CSS are super easy.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum CSS is stupid easy, but making it work on IE is just a pain, and not something I care about.
 
9:04 PM
yay
I'm reddit famous now
 
@ssube maybe you should move to a company that has you working on more interesting projects.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Because we needed a REST API to (largely) abstract out a few others and some SOAP APIs and such, and do a little bit of authorization on the way through. I don't know Scala very well at all, and Java (with Jersey) was more than enough for the reqs.
 
@FlorianMargaine gj
 
The rest was just a single-page(-ish) web app with various contractor code iframed in. It's ugly in a few spots, mostly the iframe handling, but works rather well.
 
@ssube oh, I just like Scala a lot better than Java although Java 8 has made Java bearable again. Sort of.
 
9:06 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum This was simple enough that Scala's memory overhead would have been annoying (not fatal, just really annoying), and the time to get the basics down would have been as long as the whole backend actually took.
Plus, Java + Jersey + Shiro + Guice isn't a bad stack, not at all.
 
Lol, it really is compared to C# + ASP.NET WebAPI + EF + Ninject :P
 
replace EF with NHibernate and you have what I've been working with.
 
In every parameter pretty much, C# is better than Java, the .NET web stack is better than Jersey, EF is pretty solid. Well, maybe except Guice, I actually like Guice.
 
Anything Hibernate is more trouble than it's worth.
 
@Luggage yeah, NHibernate is nice - lots of goodies there.
 
9:08 PM
(we started using NHibernate almost 10 years ago before EF was a twinkle in Microsoft's eye)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Oh, C# is much nicer than Java, but we don't run Windows servers.
 
NHibernate has lots of problems but lack of features ain't one.
 
and Guice is a pretty nice piece of tech. Took a few days to get the feel for it, but haven't had any problems since.
 
@ssube Well, EntityFramework takes about a minute to setup, it extracts everything automatically from your database and then just works. You can execute strongly typed SQL with real generics from that point on easily - or you can use LINQ which is even easier.
 
Can do all that with nhibernate. Though I think the EF linq api is better.
 
9:10 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum ORM's performance is always questionable, though.
 
@ssube in practice EF knows the DB server it's running against better than most developers who are not DBAs and will run quite fast. For cases it doesn't you can always run SQL or call a stored procedure just as easily as you could before.
 
How does it know the DB better? does it understand the staistics of your table? does it choose indexes for you?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum that may be EF-specific. I know Hibernate (Java type) and GORM and the like are really bad at optimizing anything.
 
@Luggage no, but it's aware of what indices there are and tries its best. It's not a DBA replacement.
@ssube also Java doesn't have LINQ, I wonder when LINQ like adapters wll pop up for Java 8
 
Hm. I'll have to read more EF but I can't se how. Knowing an index is there doesn't help if you tell it to filer by something stupid.
That's the databases job to take all your where clauses and use the right indexes first.
 
9:13 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum People have tried to write linq into Java forever, it never works.
Java ORM also has the problem where almost every DB vendor is at odds with Oracle, so it will never get really good support for specific DBs.
 
The j2ee reference ORM is just hibernate, I think.
 
At least MS has realized they aren't the whole universe.
@Luggage Don't think so, reference would be JPA or JDO or one of those, which would be the datanucleus one or any of the libs GAE supports. Hibernate is sort-of retconned support for the spec (unless I'm mistaken on history).
 
It was as of a couple years ago. They even used HQL as the query language
 
!!afk beer
 
The new libraries are mostly annotation-based and largely avoid HQL.
 
9:18 PM
i see.
 
Java ORM is still a mess, though. There are at least two standards, and two or three major implementations. They're all super slow, too.
 
I hate how long it takes to change avatars in chat
 
Call me anti-java but that seems to be the way. Java seems to be such bureaucratic environemnt.
 
@Luggage the correct term is "enterprise"
@SecondRikudo Observable's API is fucking sweet
 
9:24 PM
@ssube His example is rather crappy though
I doubt an Observable is best used as an event handler's replacement...
 
@SecondRikudo I think the best example I saw was images loading or something like that.
Maybe scripts. Either way, you take an array of ones that have now loaded, and do [stuff]
 
@ssube Promises FTW
 
Anything async + batchy
 
@SecondRikudo You can very easily replace an event emitter with an observable, events are what people easily grasp onto
 
bluebird is insanely strong with Promises collections
 
9:26 PM
Promises are nice, but imagine if you had to wrap each DOM event in a promise.
Observables are useful there, especially if you do an on-change type observable (DOM mutation observers).
 
Please forgive me if I were mistaken, but isn't an Observable an OOP pattern for a class that needs to "broadcast" events to subscribers?
How does that fit here?
 
@SecondRikudo There's the basic table of value/collection <-> promise/observable analogy
@SecondRikudo No
 
AFAIK the Observable there is a particular handler for async operations to be batched and sent to a handler en-masse later.
 
OO observer/observable (pub/sub) is similar, but not as focused on async, and doesn't have the same batching semantics.
 
9:27 PM
@Zirak Yes, I'm not hallucinating
The observer pattern is a software design pattern in which an object, called the subject, maintains a list of its dependents, called observers, and notifies them automatically of any state changes, usually by calling one of their methods. It is mainly used to implement distributed event handling systems. The Observer pattern is also a key part in the familiar model–view–controller (MVC) architectural pattern. The observer pattern is implemented in numerous programming libraries and systems, including almost all GUI toolkits. The observer pattern can cause memory leaks, known as the lapsed listener...
 
oh, it fits some sort of design pattern or another, yeah
But an observable is basically a collection of async values, like a array of promises. Read the gist.
 
Observable largely inherits Observer, the former watches, batches, then dispatches
That's a large part of why it's useful with DOM stuff.
 
Further investigation pending
@Zirak How much free time do you think I have? XD
 
days upon days
 
@NickDugger Who am I, @Zirak?
 
9:34 PM
@SecondRikudo pfft, I'd wish
 
user1596138
> my complaint: We aren't able to access our cPanel and can only intermittently access our databases with you. We also are having problems uploading files, every upload times out.
CS response: Sounds like you've hit the maximum number of simultaneous connections per IP address over FTP
 
user1596138
This is why I fucking hate everything and everyone. People are just so fucked in the head.
 
@SecondRikudo You probably have 20 minutes. It's more than worth it. If promises blew you away, observables will make you continuously orgasm. Seriously, they're awesome.
 
user1596138
We don't even use FTP!
 
@Jhawins What color do you want your database in, sir?
 
user1596138
9:35 PM
@SecondRikudo Size 12
 
@Jhawins Size 14 offers more RAM
 
user1596138
Ugh....
 
@Zirak They are very good. I would say that if promises were sex before bed, observables are a wake-up blowjob.
 
Fuck everything that is android right now
It shouldn't be this hard to sign a damn app
Stupid fucking errors
 
user1596138
And now someone calls in to tell me drums != percussion
 
user1596138
9:42 PM
!!afk fuck the world
 
@ssube I was sceptical about promises at first, but reluctantly accepted them. It wasn't until the thought of a "promise stream" leading to the discovery of FRP that I realised how truly amazing the concept really is.
 
@Zirak that's likely because the early APIs were pretty bad
like, jQ promises.
 
0
Q: chrome remote debugging 'inspect' button not working

aminI have followed the instructions in chrome remote debugging. Close and Reload buttons work, but Inspect button is not working:

 
@Zirak You closed my old PR, why not the one I care about?
 
10:04 PM
@Zirak I read it all
 
Ahoy hoy
 
That does indeed sound very interesting, it's quite the shift in thought process
 
What the hell's up with iOS checkboxes?
Have they always looked that awful?
 
beer!s/I care about/have relations with/ 21310542
@Zirak @Zirak You closed my old PR, why not the one have relations with? (source)
 
beers! tel I suck
 
10:10 PM
beer!s/have/something funny/ 21310738
 
Or not XD
Clearly I broke it.
 
You used the wrong prefix, singular beer, not plural
 
@Zirak Closed a couple of Benji's PRs, hope they didn't break anything
 
@SomeKittens Saw that, thanks, and no they seemed harmless
 
10:12 PM
beer! tel test
 
@SecondRikudo That didn't make much sense. Maybe you meant: tell
 
@Zirak Mostly harmless
 
beer!s/have/something funny/i 21310738
oh I'm stupid
@Zirak something funny they always looked that awful? (source)
oh, that sorta makes sense. ish. nvm.
!!refresh
 
!!s/Zirak/KendallFrey/ 21310542
 
10:21 PM
@Zirak @KendallFrey You closed my old PR, why not the one I care about? (source)
 
@SomeKittens, @SomeGuy, @BenjaminGruenbaum: github.com/Zirak/SO-ChatBot/pull/169 revisit while I go to bed
github.com/Zirak/SO-ChatBot/issues/219 as well, by all room members
btw, whoever's hosting the next meeting, I'd like to point something out about the room rules.
 
@Zirak oh?
 
Too tired, later
 
Oh but when IM too tired...
:P
 
10:25 PM
Shut up and fluff my pillow
 
... oh the urge to make a fluff joke
Wow, did not expect this imgur.com/gallery/NtMYzIl
 
Don't drink and drive
 
hi...
I noticed that most of the people ignore to include .gitattributes file in their repository, may be because they have to read documentation
So, i created .gitattributes generator (written in javascript). It lets people generate .gitattributes file for their project very easily.
The project isn't even in beta...
You all are invited to contribute to it ihopepeace.github.io/gitattributes_generator
 
@copy or you'll slowly drift into a snowbank, explode and die.
Or get pregnant. And die.
 
@Vishal TIL
 
10:38 PM
@copy sorry, but what is TIL?
 
Today I learned (about .gitattributes)
 
ok
 
@Vishal you ask for contributions but don't say what's needed.
 
@SomeKittens Everyone is welcome to review the code. Code doesn't include edge cases for now.. It can break very easily. Also, the interface of generator sucks at the moment... I made this today... And I am a beginner. There is a lot to contribute :)
 
@BadgerCat imgur.com/gallery/R89vgJB thought of you
 
10:44 PM
Also, the generator will probaly work in modern browsers... I have only tested it for chrome & firefox latest stable versions
oh god.. I m so tired... i will sleep now...
 
TIL pbcopy
how cool
 
(Making something using canvas) Does it make more sense to accept user input (such as an arrow key) all the time or once during each frame? Or should it not make a difference?
 
what's the difference?
 
Each logic tick
 
Your user input code should not be in the game loop
 
10:53 PM
Which is different from render tick
 
Ok that makes sense I think
How would you create/use a logic tick?
 
@joshhunt If it's something like "hold right to run right", do it in the logic loop. If it's something like "press Esc to quit", it would also work to do it with events.
 
so
logic tick = excepts input and calculates data such as position, velocity etc
render tick = excepts logic data and calculates drawing
?
 
You essentially do setInterval(function() { if(/* the appropriate amount of time elapsed since the last tick */) { doTick() } }, 0)
 
@joshhunt The simplest way would be setInterval(update, 5); where update is your logic function
 
10:57 PM
user image
2
 
I prefer setTimeout or requestAnimationFrame
it's a bit more code though
 
@KendallFrey how would that be different from your render tick?
 
@joshhunt Your render tick should always use requestAnimationFrame
@SterlingArcher Who was the idiot that put jeans on it?
 
@SterlingArcher Wait... it's a robot with an ass that doesn't bend?
 
@KendallFrey oh.... xD
 
10:59 PM
@joshhunt Yes, render just draws the current state of the world. Maybe interpolate before doing so, but that's not really a beginner concept
 
@copy I prefer updating on the render loop to interpolation
function toHomo makes me smile every time
 
@KendallFrey and by idiot you mean... genius?
 
So you need to make sure update works depending on how much time passed since the last update
 
@SterlingArcher :(
 
Ok here is my current js: http://jsfiddle.net/os9p5m7h/
How can I construct it better?
 
11:02 PM
IF YOU BUILD AN ASS ROBOT WHY WOULD YOU NOT INCLUDE THE PANTS
Ohhhh....
 
@copy I almost assume that's a given
@SterlingArcher :)
 
iseewhatyoudidthere.jpeg
 
omg that worked
 
@joshhunt use requestAnimationFrame instead of setTimeout
 
11:03 PM
whats the difference?
 
requestanimation runs in sync with the browser's refresh rate
it's smoother
Also use delta timing
 
Ah I see, it is a lot smoother
 
Delta timing is when you update based on how much time has passed since the last frame
 
@KendallFrey Thank you, was just googling to see what it was :D
 
I forget what the real term is, I don't think delta timing is it
 
11:06 PM
Is this the correct way of doing it? stackoverflow.com/a/14006703/1661462
 
@joshhunt That's exactly how I do it
 
Awesome thank you, also thanks for the article, will read through it
Anything else I need to address/research?
 
Well, if you want to research something more advanced, look into fixed time step physics and especially how to make it work with variable time ticks
Fixed time step physics are useful for things like physics puzzle games, where it has to be deterministic
 
Ah yup
 
You usually still want variable game ticks though, so it gets fun
 
11:12 PM
what do you mean by variable game ticks?
 
Each tick, you want the game to move forward based on how much time has passed since the last tick
however, you want to do it in discrete deterministic steps
So, for every game tick, you could be doing 10 physics ticks, or 9, or 11.
 
I've actually never done it that way
 
thats a lot of ticks to get my head around :D
 
If you abandon delta timing completely, then you can do fixed steps, but the timing of them is up to the browser
 
Just a tick function that runs exactly every N milliseconds
 
11:15 PM
@copy exactly is the hard part
 
+-5 ms?
 
Being that I trust Date.now() more than I trust setTimeout, that's what I'll use for important timing.
@copy If that's the required precision, you don't need to make it as complicated
5ms is pretty forgiving for setTimeout
 
Well, you don't need more unless you do simulations or so
I guess you do
 
So delta timing is used so that "update" is accurate even if "draw" lags?
 
@joshhunt actually, it's so that update is accurate if it lags
 
11:19 PM
And doesn't drift off over time
 
If you expect it to update 60 times per second, but it updates at 45, your stuff will be messed up unless you use delta
 
so you use it as a multiplier?
 
usually, yes
position += velocity * delta
fairly idiomatic
 
makes sense
 
thank god
 
11:22 PM
why is it called delta time?
 
MLM
@joshhunt Difference(delta) in time between loop iterations
 
@MLM Interesting, thank you
 

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