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8:00 PM
@RonaldMunodawafa totes unreadble
 
@darkyen00 I know the Indian authors I have come across have the worst books on C
I don't know about other languages. But I detest "Let Us C"
They are a disgrace to Indian heritage
 
indian code? lol
 
@RonaldMunodawafa my colllege recommends it
to all the C developers
@AwalGarg its like indian porn
 
Throw that book away
 
@RonaldMunodawafa i threw the college :3
 
8:04 PM
cs50.net did it for me
 
India has the best and the worst (literally idiot) programmers in the world.
 
I don't know about best because the Russian code I came across was just OMG
It was inspiring
It was complex yet simple
It was intelligently written
 
russia has good hackers :p
 
If it were not for the Russian programmers I would not have wanted to learn C and Scheme
 
8:08 PM
 
A good language is one which antiscales
The easy stuff is complex because it doesn't matter and the hard stuff is simple because it matters
 
Folks, I’m new to web dev and JS, but I already know that there is a way to dynamically change a web page by moving a branch of a DOM tree and assigning a different parent to it.
Is there a way to clone a branch of a DOM tree and dynamically create HTML that way? I have a specific scenario in mind: a table where a visitor can dynamically add and remove rows.
If cloning a branch is possible, it may be more code-efficient than making lots of appendChild(…) calls for every node within the branch.
The only idea I had so far was newClone.innerHtml = templateDonor.innerHtml; . But, I’ve read that innerHtml is deprecated.
 
I need to learn JavaScript properly
Not just hack through it
I didn't know innerHTML was deprecated. Perhaps, you could provide a reference I could read through
 
@RonaldMunodawafa I don't mind hacking, as long as I don't hack myself into a corner too often.
 
Believe it or not, I "discovered" JavaScript through a graphics app extention that also provided an extension for Lua
That said, I haven't written code in a while
 
8:20 PM
@RonaldMunodawafa There are many places where innerHtml is criticized, and its deprecation is mentioned. Here's one: Break your innerHTML addiction. Just looking up innerHtml deprecated on google finds half-dozen pages.
 
I have mostly been working at a very conceptual and architectural level
For the simple reason that it is faster I will keep on using it
 
@NickAlexeev from 2006... heh
 
There is no such thing as a JavaScript standard. There surely is an ECMASCript standard
But
We know the only thing dragging the web are the standards committees which always play catchup to what is already there
Personally I think HTML is garbage, including the "living" standard. They should have developed XHTML further.
 
@twiz 2009, if you read a little further.
 
I think the real point is to generally not use innerHTML to add DOM elements. It usually makes more sense to document.createElement and an appendChild.
 
8:24 PM
Still
 
but I don't think there is anything wrong with innerHTML itself.
 
I agree
Don't believe people who tell you goto is bad
Those are the same people who tell you innerHTML is bad
 
@RonaldMunodawafa innerHTML is bad
what do you mean?
 
Can you define bad and provide proof that innerHTML assumes the state of bad based on something that is factual
 
what do you usually use innerHTML for?
 
8:28 PM
@RonaldMunodawafa If something is at a brink of deprecation, then it's not future-proof. Not good. Bad.
 
"If we could all get behind the standards and use them it could force the software engineers (pronounced “Microsoft”) to actually care about the standards." No one really cares about web standards because if we followed them too closely a web page would just be a means to download documents
@towc I use innerHTML for setting innerHTML without second guesses
 
@RonaldMunodawafa why not use document.createElement and element.textContent?
 
For the same reason I will use recursion instead of loops
Sometimes I don't want to create an element or text content
 
if you have to set html with a string, then you're probably doing something wrong
@RonaldMunodawafa what else does innerHTML do?
 
innerHTML is like goto. It is very general
 
8:31 PM
@RonaldMunodawafa explain yourself
 
Okay. I've heard enough here. I'll go post a proper question on SO.
 
list me all the things that innerHTML does, that createElement and textContent don't
 
List me things that goto does, that while and for loops don't
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Ronald, you are arguing for the sake of arguing. Then again, that's what chat rooms are for, right? They are not for going forward and solving problems. No.
 
I have a question
 
user2620028
8:35 PM
I don't have an answer :(
 
@RonaldMunodawafa neither do I
 
If innerHTML is to be deprecated who will deprecate it?
 
@RonaldMunodawafa gotos surely don't help with readability, nor does innerHTML
 
On the basis of innerHTML being faster I prefer it
 
@RonaldMunodawafa you mean you can type it faster?
I can type minified code faster than full code, but that doesn't mean that minified code is better
 
8:39 PM
According to your link: I know, innerHTML came out first, it’s so easy to use. Browsers that use it render it faster than the pure DOM method. There are many reasons to use innerHTML, but one major reason not to:
Not everyone accessing a webpage is using a modern Celeron processor
Whenever a document starts talking about "Web2.0" I get nervous about the document
There are people out there who are using smartphones whose browsers are not the best in form
@towc this is the real reason why we should prefer createElement and textContent to innerHTML: stackoverflow.com/a/2947012/3998051, not that it is on the brink of being deprecated.
 
user2620028
8:56 PM
I use a windows phone with IE lol
 
That is actually a decent browser and phone
 
user2620028
extremely finicky settings in the browser however
 
user2620028
the meta tags and veiwports and zooms and whatnots
 
9:10 PM
Do web developers count as software engineers? If so, what would make the web coder different from the web developer?
 
software engineer != web coder
 
@Jonathan Welcome to the JavaScript chat! Please review the room pseudo-rules. Please don't ask if you can ask or if anyone's around; just ask your question, and if anyone's free and interested they'll help.
 
@Jonathan how are the two different
 
engineers 'eer' engines.. web coders type code
:P
a software engineer gives the web coder the plan for the web coder to write the code
 
So the guys who coded the V8 engine do not count as engineers right
 
user2620028
9:16 PM
uhhh no its all bullshit to be honest
 
the guys who built the javascript engine aren't 'web coders'
 
user2620028
Its all just sales words like ninja, rockstar, engineer, doctor
 
lol, its totally not
 
user2620028
make of it what you want, none of it really matters
 
So when someone says they are learning code and saying it can be learnt in a day what will they be learning
Does designing concurrent algorithms still count as coding?
 
user2620028
9:18 PM
Depends on the person, and also what you mean by learning it ALL in a day, because no one programmer will ever know everything to do with coding. Maybe they are learning enough to complete whatever project they are doing.
 
designing != coding
 
user2620028
so jonathan.... to you coding means just typing on a keyboard or punching out cards?
 
What is the difference between coding and programming then
 
user2620028
because that is a mechanical action that monkeys are capable of
 
there isnt a difference between coding and progrmming
no
 
9:19 PM
Because in 1999 I was an HTML coder while I was still in junior school
 
because the last part that you do when you engineer software is write the code
 
And I can't say I was a programmer
 
writing the code is about 20% of the process
 
There is more to software than coding
 
agreed, but there isn't necessarily a need for the person who does the coding to understand the whole system, or for them to be interested in how it all works, as long as they understand the function calls to make - that would be a programmer
i.e. the programmer gets a software-design from an engineer, who designs the architects vision
 
user2620028
9:22 PM
buzzwords again. This is all work that can be reasonably completed by a single person
 
user2620028
as shown on many single person startup projects
 
bollocks
* depending on the size of the project
 
user2620028
Absolutely
 
so your statement doesnt hold
 
user2620028
by that logic neither does yours?
 
9:23 PM
?
 
Microsoft Excel has a lot behind it and I would like to see a spreadsheet that does everything properly on par with modern spreadsheets written by a single person
 
one person can do multiple jobs, but they are still multiple jobs
 
user2620028
But that doesn't mean that you have to break down people into buzzword roles based on what they should or shouldn't be capable of indicated by the buzzword job title
 
no, you break it down based on their skill set
 
user2620028
So then if people have a skillset that applies to multiple job titles
 
user2620028
9:25 PM
then they get all of those job titles?
 
?
not sure what you mean?
 
user2620028
Why cant they just be called employees for fucks sakes lol
 
where would you draw the boundaries for responsibility?
 
user2620028
getting back to my original gripe. Why do we have to have all of these buzzword job titles
 
But I have seen of programmers like William Gates who have designed algorithms like pancake sorting
 
9:26 PM
eg, if you are a front-end javascript coder then should you be making UX decisions for the app?
 
Because a lady today told me I could become a software engineer in a day
 
user2620028
Jonathan that is for the management of the project to decide
 
user2620028
We can't write a guideline for every business to follow
 
or should you be doing a sysadmin role and configuring servers?
 
user2620028
I was just griping about all of the crap that comes out in our industry for buzzword job titles
 
user2620028
9:27 PM
It is way out of hand
 
She told me software engineering, like computer science, is coding
So I had to ask if I was confused
 
Or she was insulting
 
she was insulting
:D
 
user2620028
look at that and try to find 5 jobs in that list that does not have at least one buzz word in it
 
9:28 PM
at least to me
 
Here is my opinion
 
user2620028
software engineering is a subset of computer science
 
You are not a software engineer until you can engineer software
No
 
no
 
user2620028
How not
 
9:29 PM
lol
 
Software engineering is to computer science what electronic engineering is to physics
 
no @HatterisMad, yes@ronald
 
user2620028
sorry to the physics people but eletronic engineering is still physics
 
@HatterisMad what does writing specifications and documentation have to do with computer science
 
I'm lucky that I did an electronics degree (half physics and half low-level software engineering) and then got a job as a programmer (now doing MSc in Advanced Computer Systems Design) they are totally different
 
We MUST reinvent the wheel
 
user2620028
Is computer science not the application and subject for your specifications and documentation
 
software engineering is the part that comes after business guys talk crap and before programmers write code
@HatterisMad - yes
but who writes the spec?
and who works out all the gotchas before the code is done
 
I will say this upfront
 
user2620028
Someone with the skillset for doing so
 
9:33 PM
There is a difference between someone like Joel Spolsky and someone like Mark Zuckerberg
 
@HatterisMad - a software engineer, or a software architect and a team of software engineers if you have a massive company
 
user2620028
@Jonathan i could have named the buzzwords for you but that is not what you asked
 
@HatterisMad lol
 
user2620028
I am not trying to argue that the jobs should not exist or that there are different skillsets here, i am just saying that we have TOO MANY buzz words in our job titles, you are stretching this way off of what i was trying to say
 
Some people who end up being called software engineers are just coders who wouldn't know what space complexity was if they were told their app is too large
First we need to drop the coders
 
9:36 PM
first we need to drop the sales-guys
and the monetary system
 
user2620028
@Jonathan that most of the time i will agree with hahaha
 
then it could be like startrek
 
By the way, front-end architecture is something that could be taken seriously
 
and we could make proper stuff
 
We do not need the business guys trying to write code as well
And not understanding why they should compute in cents
 
9:38 PM
and not understanding rounding errors when they dont
 
And we should drop the guys who cannot understand why passing an object by value is more expensive than passing it by reference
 
:D
 
And people who deploy Python apps on underpowered Android devices
 
or the ones who want to spend weeks to micro-optimise their code, removing a couple of cpu-cycles and leave their SQL queries running joins without indexes and wonder why its still slow..
 
yeah
I personally don't like the people who can't understand how iteration is recursion
And then go around telling the bright young minds that functional programming is not practical and only for phD academics
 
9:43 PM
iteration isn't recursion
 
There you go
 
iteration can easily be rewritten into recursion
 
this is where my electronics comes into play - its all the same at that level, the only thing that matter higher up is how easy it is to understand for the coder
 
Thanks @Jonathan
 
there is no object-oriented assembly, no loops, only line after line of procedural instructions
 
9:44 PM
Exactly
I still think C++ is more complex than ASM
 
written in all-caps and abbreviations, if I may add
 
never learned c++, did asm, 86000, delphi, then php, perl and now javascript, etc
 
I have two questions
 
I think I want to have a look at erlang
 
@Jonathan what about Java bytecode?
 
9:46 PM
oh, I learned basic on a zx spectrum
 
Is this recursion?
class Mother(object):
    def __init__(IsRecursive):
        if IsRecursive == true:
            child = Mother(true)
 
not sure - dont know java, but think the bytecode is the stuff that java is turned into by the jvm, which is then processed and turned into cpu calls
through a load of other parts
A Java virtual machine (JVM) is an abstract computing machine. There are three notions of the JVM: specification, implementation, and instance. An instance of the JVM can execute any executable computer program compiled into Java bytecode. It is the code execution component of the Java platform. == Overview == The Java virtual machine is called "virtual" because it is an abstract computer defined by a specification. JVM specification omits implementation details that are not part of the Java virtual machine's specification. For example, the memory layout of run-time data areas, the garbag...
 
Is that recursion?
 
the bottom left block is the bytecode, the other two on the bottom are the native libraries, and after that are the cpu calls
 
@RonaldMunodawafa Infinite recursion, to be exact. One that overflows the stack pretty immediately.
 
9:51 PM
That is not infinite
 
Morning
 
It looks to me like Mother(true) calls Mother(true)
 
Anyone seen the weird thing with angular in Chrome where you have a list of options in a select, and it keeps flicking back to the value from the model when you move your mouse onto a different option?
 
fiddle?
 
@JanDvorak okay is this recursion:
struct Mother { int weight; int* name; struct Mother* Daughter; }
 
10:04 PM
that would be data recursion
 
But it still is recursion right?
 
yes; infinite recursion again, though
struct Mother *daughter to fix
The above wouldn't even compile in C++
 
Fixed thanks
It is not supposed to
We are speaking hypothetically
 
So I just forked @BenjaminGruenbaum's challenge repo, and I want to add my submission as a subfolder. But I worked on it in a separate folder (also under git).
Moving it while preserving history may be...interesting
 
@RonaldMunodawafa I wrote you some code that checks if some other code is recursive, it might help you:
var doesreCursive = function (bigCodes, depth) {
    var depth = depth || 0;
    var muchCodez = bigCodes.length;
    var nu = Math.random() * muchCodez ;
    if (nu > muchCodez * 0.25 && depth < 100 ) {
        console.log('I haz keep checkin.', depth);
        doesreCursive(bigCodes, depth + 1);
    } else {
        console.log('scrotes!');
    }
}
 
10:12 PM
@Zirak push from one repo to the other?
 
You use it like this: doesreCursive('some code')
 
@phenomnomnominal God bless you
 
@JanDvorak I've got a git-folder foobar, I want to merge it into blanketsburg/Zirak
 
@RonaldMunodawafa I pray to the other guy
 
@phenomnomnominal may Ozzy Osbourne bless you
 
10:13 PM
It's not pushing since the root's different. Everything's different.
 
So @JanDvorak aren't singly linked lists recursive in nature?
 
@RonaldMunodawafa they are
 
@JanDvorak I like you
You are cool
So we can then say the below is recursive in nature
i = i - 1
right?
 
@JanDvorak You probably don't care, but: nuclearsquid.com/writings/subtree-merging-and-you
 
@Zirak I will take a look
 
10:21 PM
 
@Zirak The text overflows my screen and doesn't want me to scroll it :-/
 
You know css and your way around dev tools, fix it
 
This should be running in a terminal
 
Not worth it. I'll just zoom out. Still a bug.
 
two questions in the comments ^
 
10:26 PM
WTH is delete this?
 
this is the image resource
 
I mean, delete removes a property from an object. There's no such object here.
 
@rlemon It doesn't do anythig
 
in chrome if i just use the same image resource (gif) to replace the static image the gif plays in memory. so when you swap back it is at a seemingly random spot in the gif
I can re-request the image, but that seems wasteful.
 
is gifv an option?
 
10:29 PM
trying to think of a way to prevent the second request, but to 'reset' the gif
this is just interests sake.
 
hrm, I'm not sure you can do that, it's pretty low-level
 
Improve caching?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Accept pull requests. github.com/benjamingr/JS-Monthly-Challenge-Nov-14/pull/7
5
 
you annoying clever bastard
 
@Zirak 2.9 brah
such
 
10:41 PM
is that what you were working on last night?
 
@rlemon Yep! Specifically, I sifted through lots of to-js languages trying to find one which both wasn't boring and wasn't already covered. That's when I found djs. Much awesome.
 
lol nice
 
Dogescript looked promising, but it's still very immature. I couldn't figure out how to pass an anonymous function
 
maybe is really nice
 
10:56 PM
@Zirak I need to look into this
 
@Zirak different language for every file?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum Yep
 
Coolbeans
 
maybe I'll stay at work after hours and take a look
this laptop doesn't cut it
 

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