« first day (403 days earlier)      last day (4545 days later) » 

3:00 PM
GWT is used if your an idiot :D
@jAndy Assembly wasn't made for machines to interpret?
I think the whole language is designed for machine optimisations rather then programmer optimisations
 
@Raynos: again depends on how we define 'assembly'. "assembly language" is just like macro-names for byte-codes, which in turn represent binary data
 
Languages express computation and assembly describes processor actions.
 
A machine does not need names like JE JMP MOV or whatnot
humans do
 
@Raynos If you're too stuck-up to learn the platform's language, then you are an idiot
 
(most humans do)
 
3:02 PM
@jAndy Right, but they came from describing the machine, not computation.
if (some logic) { do computation} else {some other computation}
That's a computational expression
 
feels like this discussion is ending up arguing if the matrix exists :p
"those names and macros came from a machine world, so you can never be so strong and fast like them!"
kind of reversed matrix tho
 
Beyond bytecode, all "languages" are abstractions to make programming easier. Assembly included.
 
however and whatever, I probably will never get this "html5 & ecmascript is the assembly of the web" term
who is responsible for that cowbell crap
 
Has anyone here written assembly before?
 
@jAndy I used to be a proponent of that state of mind. Now, I think JS/ES is more like the C of the web.
@Incognito Yep
It was required in my Computer Science program
 
3:06 PM
@Incognito Unfortunately, years ago
 
I did also, quite a lot actually
(x86 assembly)
 
Okay, so is your code trying to express a computation, or guide a processor?
 
@Incognito Both
 
I'd say, the latter
 
What's the point of guiding a processor if you're not accomplishing something?
 
3:08 PM
Guiding the processor leads to computations
 
Sure, but with higher-level languages you're describing something agnostic of a processor.
It doesn't matter how the processor works
 
OMG ABSTRACTION I CAN'T DEAL WITH IT
 
The language expresses the computation where it gets parsed to a machine expression
 
yay :p abstraction levels are huge :) imagine the pyramid of C# for instance
from byte-code to C# level
 
Transpilers change from one computation expression to another computation expression then back to the machine expression.
 
3:09 PM
that pyramid would be as high as f***** mount everst
 
@jAndy Crap?
 
@Incognito True, but the point of the language the programmer is actually writing is to abstract concepts in the language that it gets converted to
 
nah probably not that hard
 
@RyanKinal I absolutely agree with you.
 
however, what I was saying is, I was always a fan of writting apps and codes which are able to run on a system, pretty standalone. without the need for 250 mb of library codes & stuff
talking about C and asm
 
3:11 PM
But I'm saying assembly expresses things for a machine, languages express things for computation-- which yes, does eventually end up on a machine.
 
try to do that with C# (or any other highly abstracted language)
 
hhm, I'd say that languages express what you mean. Assembly does as you say. Languages have abstractions. When you do var meep = '';, you mean "assign a block of memory in here"
You don't talk machine/CPU, you talk intention.
 
Right, all of that is abstracted away. The compiler takes care of it. In the end, though, you're always expressing something for a machine, and the machine is always going to do what you say (not what you mean).
 
@Zirak That's what I mean when I say computation -- to express computation is express what you mean.
@RyanKinal Right, but that's because it gets interpreted to a machine expression.
 
If languages expressed what you mean, then there would be no errors. It's always going to do what you say, no matter what you mean. It's just that you're able to say things more succinctly.
 
3:16 PM
Some things are interchangable. Math is the same in machine level as in language level.
 
isn't that what abstraction is all aboout ?
 
@RyanKinal Do not underestimate human stupidity.
 
makeing things more "expressful"
 
@Zirak Remember division in x86?
@jAndy Yes.
 
instead of 010001110010101000111010100101001001000000101010100001010( continued like forever) we have a language where you can say CreateAModalWindowAndPutStuffInIt()
 
3:17 PM
My point has nothing to do with "don't transpile code," I'm saying assembly is not the same thing as JavaScript and HTML, they express computations, not machine instructions.
 
@RyanKinal They express what you mean to a limit. They do as you say, but there are lines to how it can guess. js "guesses" what you mean when you do [] in different contexes.
 
@jAndy yes! That's my point! And even transpiled languages are meant to make things more "expressive" - it's just that they don't necessarily succeed, especially when it comes to people writing in the base language. I can only assume that ASM programmers shunned C when it came out, the same as we shun Dart and GWT.
 
first one = fast as possible, 100% precise but errorproune like hell
 
@jAndy But we couldn't do that anyway, the machines are not the same, this is why we convert expressions to instructions.
 
@Incognito People misunderstand assembly. They think it means "low level as fuck and you can compile stuff to it."
 
3:18 PM
second one = slow, far less precise, huge memory usage but readable and easy to understand
 
You can make a different phrase like "Web Assembly" which means "lowest you can go", and then js & html will be "web assembly"...
 
@Zirak Which is where the analogy comes from, and we've come full circle.
 
...but that'd not be true. If anything, js is a VM
 
Agreed, and that's why I've switched my viewpoint from JS == ASM to JS == C
It's an imperfect analogy, but it's not a bad one
 
actually, talking about abstraction levels, ecmascript would be on top of everything (in a browser). Browser->C++->Whatever tons of library->compiler->asm(bytecode)
but that changed, when v8 entered the stage
 
3:23 PM
Right
 
actually, since v8 intepretates ecmascript and compiles it into byte-code directly, things changed in a way I cannot really describe in that picture :p
 
I'm not sure if it's that alikened to C. js' C version will probably not have any host objects available at first (exposed through includes and stuff like that, though) and other stuff. When people say C, I think of a language, not a language with libraries pre-included and pointer coverups and so on.
 
Right :-)
 
it's like... the toaster gets an awareness of, beeing a toaster
 
God is dead?
 
3:24 PM
@Zirak Sure, but that's core JS, anyway. Host objects are a matter of where the JS is running.
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I like @Zirak's suggestion that JavaScript is a VM.
 
I also have trouble accepting C <-> js because C is compiled. That's why I think js is a VM. You can have some compilation, but at the end, it's a run everywhere interpreter.
 
@RyanKinal All the languages that transpile to JS/HTML are DSLs
 
Y'all are going to kill me for this comparison, but check it out:
CoffeeScript -> JS -> Bytecode
Java -> Java bytecode -> Bytecode
So, not exactly a VM in itself - that would be the JS engine. But it's similar.
 
        RYAN KINAL
---------------------------
      DEATH BY NERD
          RAGE
2
 
dum dum da dum, dum da dum da dum da dum
 
3:29 PM
Javascript == Java. We all know that. 'nuff said.
 
You're lucky that's a non-strict comparison ;-)
 
Affirming the consequent, sometimes called converse error, is a formal fallacy, committed by reasoning in the form: #If P, then Q. #Q. #Therefore, P. An argument of this form is invalid, i.e., the conclusion can be false even when statements 1 and 2 are true. Since P was never asserted as the only sufficient condition for Q, other factors could account for Q (while P was false). The name affirming the consequent derives from the premise Q, which affirms the "then" clause of the conditional premise. Examples One way to demonstrate the invalidity of this argument form is with a counterex...
 
@Rasmus haha
 
@Incognito Dude. analogy - not logical certainty
 
My Javascript brings all boys to the yard, and they're like...
 
3:32 PM
@Incognito "Butterflies are pretty => God exists" vs "God exists => Butterflies are prtty"?
 
@Zirak More like butterflies are pretty, cats are pretty, therefore cats are butterflies.
@RyanKinal Nobody ever likes when I link to fallacies :(.
Like, ever.
 
I like it <3
 
"Trolls exist -> God does not exists"
 
There's a difference between -> and => (and <=>)! A => B means "if A, then B". A <=> B is "if A, then B, and if B, then A". f: A -> B is "function f maps A to B" (usually found in set theory)
This is a listing of common symbols found within all branches of mathematics. Each symbol is listed in both HTML, which depends on appropriate fonts being installed, and in , as an image. : Symbols {| class="wikitable" style="margin:auto; width:100%; border:1px" ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Symbolin HTML ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Symbolin ! style="text-align:left;" |Name ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Explanation ! rowspan="3" style="font-size:130%;" |Examples |- ! Read as |- ! style="text-align:right;" |Category {{row of table of mathema...
 
3:37 PM
@Zirak good math
 
Don't trust anything I say. Especially if it's math-related. I'm mostly wrong, and lie a lot.
 
what about coffeescript?
 
It's also mostly wrong, and lies a lot
 
is someboy use it for work?
 
cs is a piece of shit
avoid it
 
3:41 PM
@Raynos I don't think any of us are saying JS is web assembly. Not at all. I think we're recognizing that JS has become the low-level language of the web (relatively speaking), and we're trying to find a suitable analogy.
 
@RyanKinal javascript is not the low level language of the web
 
Is my validator wrong or is <meta http-equiv="X-UA-compatible" content="IE=9"> not valid in HTML5?
 
its the high level language of the web
Next your going to say C is a low level language
 
stop trolling @Raynos
 
What editor do you find most useful when writing Javascript btw? I'm finding Sublime Text 2 to be a wonderful tool, but would love to hear some opinions.
 
3:42 PM
We must not think of those tools as compilers
 
Vim & Emacs
 
they dont compiler from a high level language (java/ trolls) to a low level language (js)
They transpiler side ways
 
@Rasmus I use notepad++ like all the cool kids
 
from a high level language to another high level language
 
@Raynos Compiler or Transpiler, it doesn't matter. It's a tool for abstraction.
 
3:43 PM
They are not an abstraction its a transformation
 
@Raynos teach me some reason
 
Dont think of them as layers on top of javascript
 
We're not speaking in absolutes here, we're speaking from a relative viewpoint.
 
think of them as transformation tools
Anyway I dont want in this conversation
 
@BenBrocka I used Np++ before Sublime Text 2. I just recently switched over. (Multiple selections <3)
 
3:44 PM
@island205 coffeescript is rage. why would you ever want to compile down to js
 
cough
cough cough
ahem
 
CS is for lazy codehipsters
 
@Rasmus Hadn't heard of it honestly, I'll have to take a peek at it
 
CS is ruby -> js compiler
@Rasmus sublime text 2 / vim / emacs
 
cough
 
3:45 PM
@BenBrocka @Rasmus Vim & Emacs ftw
 
I don't like coffeescript either, but .. the pure idea is a good one. Create a language (which probably is somewhat shortener and abstracted) and compile it into the language which is too verbose and errorprone
that is why I would agree to someone who is using coffeescript
 
@BenBrocka It's in Beta as of now. But still good progress in there.
 
@jAndy that language is called es6 ;)
 
js is buggy and incomplete
 
@Zirak Bleh :(
 
3:46 PM
why not have a compiler which avoids all those lacks
 
@jAndy ES5 has a few rough edges but its not that incomplete
 
(unless you're an excellent ecmascript guy who really knows what he is doing)
 
@Rasmus I'm a keyboard fanatic. Vimacs (Vim &&|| Emacs) are a perfect fit.
 
@jAndy the main reason against it is that you dont want to read compiled js.
 
@jAndy Frameworks solve that problem quite well though (granted they have the bloat necessary for frameworks as opposed to a high level language)
 
3:47 PM
@jAndy Every language is buggy and incomplete
 
@Zirak I know they are good editors. No doubt. But they are so darn ugly :P
 
I also think having a few shorthands is useful, but it would get out control
 
@Rasmus "Ugly"? wut?
 
@zirak: good point
 
imagines the previous 20 messages or so, substituting "C" for "CS" and "ASM" for "JS/ES"
 
3:47 PM
@BenBrocka ugh frameworks, there are plenty of small javascripts libraries which solve the problem
 
@Zirak Ugly = Not nice looking
 
@Raynos: honestly, I've never seen js-code created by coffeescript, I though its quite readable
 
ahe, i am another new javascript learner.
 
@jAndy every time I read js code written by cs I rage
 
@Rasmus Why would you ever lift your eyes off the code and into the GUI? I run everything in the console anyway, and never use the mouse.
 
3:48 PM
@jAndy i think so
 
@Rasmus vim is command line. Next you say the terminal is ugly
 
@Zirak Well, I'm ashamed of it. But I still need it. I LIKE NICE LOOKING THINGS! :<
 
I go even further and say
 
SHINY THINGS!
 
vim is ugly
hide
HAIL TO NANO !
now the truth comes out :/
 
3:49 PM
~_~
 
@jAndy did you just say nano?
 
Shiny things are useless. Good things are useful
 
@Raynos solve which problem though? Maybe you can take out a bit of verbosity with a tiny library, but Frameworks are large because they're solving more problems than that, giving you the high level functions you really (might) need
@Zirak But what if they're good AND shiny?
 
@BenBrocka meh I dont use frameworks, frameworks are crotches to fix incompetence
 
even joe is nicer than vim :o
 
3:50 PM
@BenBrocka No such things
 
@jAndy but "return" bit me
 
Teehee, he said "crotches"
 
The main thing is that all you need is a cross browser normalization layer and a few tools to make your programming style easier
 
realizes he may have lost his mind
 
but .. as vim is like a religion I'll stop with that, I don't want to have a suicide vim terrorist exploding in my bed some day soon
 
3:52 PM
I don't see Vimacs as a religion. But I just don't notice the GUI, because it matters shit if you've got the keyboard
In text editors, text is what matters, not the editor
 
@Zirak Well, it's the small things which makes something complete. Vim is helluva boring.
 
Why is it boring? And how are IDEs roller-coasters?
 
@jAndy Here's your new desktop viemu.com/vi-vim-tutorial-1.gif
 
@Zirak It's boring because it LOOKS boring. That's enough for me, it makes me puke :(
 
Is Chrome lame and boring because it doesn't have much GUI?
If you mean the syntax colors, there are themes.
 
3:56 PM
@Incognito: lmao
 
The GUI itself is like 1% of everything
 
@Zirak Man my favourite part of the IDE is right before the splash zone and the camera takes your picture.
 
@Incognito lol
 
My favourite part of Vim is the tunnel of love.
 
So basically, the whole thing?
 
4:00 PM
A bit NSFW: pbfcomics.com/185
 
How much is a bit?
 
Mine is the way to edit
how about idea IDE?
 
@Incognito ~3 25x25 pics of boobs inside the last comic panel
 
I like how msdn links to es5-shim :)
 
4:04 PM
> Some examples, like Dart, portend that JavaScript has fundamental flaws and to support these scenarios requires a “clean break” from JavaScript in both syntax and runtime. We disagree with this point of view. We believe that with committee participant focus, the standards runtime can be expanded and the syntactic features necessary to support JavaScript at scale can be built upon the existing JavaScript standard.
 
> Some examples, like Dart, portend that JavaScript has fundamental flaws and to support these scenarios requires a “clean break” from JavaScript in both syntax and runtime. We disagree with this point of view.
I like how Microsoft can make sensible statements
Microsoft has stopped being the elephant in the room
 
They're also fighting SOPA
 
if only it can adept the 6 week release cycle for IE :(
 
ppk:If you like Java and can’t get yourself to like JavaScript, you program Dart.
If you like Ruby and can’t get yourself to like JavaScript, you program CoffeeScript.
If you like JavaScript, you program JavaScript.
 
If you can't get yourself to like JavaScript, you're dead inside.
5
 
4:09 PM
alright enough chat for today, i'll be back again maybe later today or tomorrow. Cheers everyone.
 
in the future, could js be a great laguage?
 
wow cant believe Im the only one who starred @Zirak comment lol
 
In the present, js is a great language
 
in the present its a great language!
 
Jinx, you owe me Adobe CS5!
 
4:10 PM
lol
 
@Zirak lol
 
idk something about JS makes me love it.. I dont know what it is, maybe how easy it is to just dive in and start doing stuff regardless of the platform or tools available. All you need is a web browser and notepad and you can make something cool.
 
ecmascript is just an awesome language, nuff said.
 
I have a soft spot for dynamically typed languages
 
yeah,i agree with you very mach
 
4:12 PM
I love js because of many things. The most important is that it's truly dynamic.
 
Imagine JS being a strictly typed language. Oh what a dream.
 
It allows you to put the circle in the square slot if you want to. It complains when you try and eat yourself, but inside the js world, you can do whatever you want and it won't complain.
 
should js have "class" keyword?
 
well, I'm not sure if ES.Next comes slightly closer to a stricly typed language
thinking of all those binary types
 
Strictly typed language in a sandbox metaphor will be a sandbox with cement walls around you
 
4:14 PM
@Zirak Meh
 
@island205 No. Learn prototypical inheritance. Classical inheritance is yucky once you grasp prototypes.
 
@Zirak: inheritance itself is yucky once you grasp object composition
 
@Rasmus I'm serious. Dead serious. Learned that lesson the hard way, from doing Java things.
 
@Zirak Oh, I bet you are serious alright. I'm a cat.
 
@Zirak i understand prototypical inheritance now!
 
4:16 PM
...why do people like static typing? What good does it bring them?
Memory fanatics, k. But why does everyone else like it?
 
efficiency
 
@Zirak Efficiency
 
Because js is so slow
 
@Zirak: excuse me? :p
 
I mean, really? No one cares
@jAndy See: Sarcasm
 
4:18 PM
@Zirak: I just got that with your next line
however, its not only for efficiency, dealing with binary data its stone necesarry
uint8 needs to be uint8 and nothing else, reading or writting binary files
 
There are always edge cases. But for anything else, for that gigantic gap in the middle between these edge cases, static typing is useless
Computers are so fast and have so much memory, that it's just not worth the trouble of getting "Error: Expected (int, int, int) but got (int, int, uint)"
 
maybe someday efficiency is not required
 
I would not neccesarily call it edge case. Since ES6 is pushing things further (just like node), we have to have strict types, because dealing with binary data (files, open gl / webgl, etc.) becomes a huge part in the future
 
Meh. It's possible that I'm just crazy.
 
it's time to bed,good-bye
 
4:50 PM
Hi ...
 
Hello :-)
 
can som1 help me :3
 
The answer to that question depends heavily on what sort of help you need.
 
its easy
 
@RyanKinal: rofl
 
4:59 PM
just 1 reason u think that makes flash suck ?
 
@Abhishek Kind of a subjective question =)
 
[and reason = ' This is js room ' is invalid ]
 
@Abhishek Not subjective at all - Adobe Drops Flash for Mobile
 
its non-standard, non-w3c, non-public, hence it sucks
 
It's a plugin.
 
5:01 PM
is the first reason in a list of several hundreds of thousands
^^
 
@RyanKinal Aren't all opinions subjective?
 
@RobinAndersson I suppose that's true. But the undeniable strength of the mobile market should be a huge factor in any current web development.
 
jsfiddle y u lag :\
 
If you build something and work on it for years, spend a lot of blood and tears and money on it, and then admit it's a piece of shit, it's most likely a piece of shit.
 
And if Adobe is saying "Yeah, Flash for mobile isn't really a thing to do", then I think it's a pretty big hint.
 
5:02 PM
jsfiddle is a classic example of it not being build to scale
 
Interesting question: In a snake game, how would you handle the snake's growth? (imagine the snake itself is an array)
 
@Abhishek yous trolling
@Zirak The snake is a movable object that has a shape
The shape knows how to move itself
you just augment the shape
 
0
Q: Malzilla Tutorial #4 - how to get it working

SimI am trying to understand the basic work flow of using Malzilla , and therefore doing the tutorials. But already in the first one, where you actually get to do something I am lost as it doesn't work for me at all, even though I follow it step by step. In the first paragraph where you have to con...

 
Yes, it knows how to move. But, when it eats something, how would you add the extra body part?
 
Er... snake.push()?
Or, I suppose, snake.unshift()
 
5:11 PM
eye roll It's an array of coordinates. Like: snake.addSegment(x, y) (something like that, you can be imaginative)
I can think of several ways. But it's a nice question.
 
So... the question is "How many different ways can we think of to add an array element to an array"?
 
No no no...I'll give you more details I didn't think were necessary.
There's an array of coordinates that's the snake. Hit detection is pretty obvious - loop through every coordinate, see if it overlaps another coordinate.
 
@Raynos : You should see a discussion
which i had to go through -_-
people dont wanna understand why flash sucks :(
brb
gonna spend some time with php
 
When a food item is eaten, the snake needs to grow. You need to find a way to add the coordinate in a way that the snake won't "collide with itself" and won't collide with the walls as it grows
 
@Abhishek php sucks too
 
5:21 PM
When the snake moves, I guess it updates all the coordinates in the array.
If the snake is about to move away from a tile where it just have eaten, then add the new distination to the array instead of updating coordinates.
That's a lazy way to do it
 
@Raynos mediawiki guys wont understand that
 
@Zirak trivial
game.nextTick(snake.size++)
You delay the snake growth to the next game round.
 
@JPuge What do you mean by "add the new destination"?
@Raynos And then what?
 
@Zirak then your done
 
Anyone here get to play with gitWeb before?
 
5:25 PM
@Raynos I think the point is that the snake moves forward on every tick, so the space where the "tail" was will always be available. Thus, you add a new coordinate on every tick, and you're always adding to a blank space.
 
Dunno what you actually mean. What I thought of is on every move, predict where the next coordinate will be. If food is there, you just add that position to the snake. If not, then it's the new head position.
 
@Zirak Each game tick you update the positions. Add the new position of the snakes head to the array, and do not update the other places in the array :)
 
@Zirak That works too, assuming food only adds one segment to the snake
var tick = function()
{
    // For now, I assume the snake is a simple array
    var snakeLength = snake.length,
        lastSegment = snake[snakeLength - 1],
        lastX = lastSegment.x,
        lastY = lastSegment.y;

    moveSnake();

    if (snakeLength < totalLength)
    {
        snake.push({lastX, lastY});
    }

    if (snakeAteFood)
    {
        // totalLength is stored elsewhere
        // and represents the length the snake wants tobe
        totalLength += food.value;
    }
}
 
@AndyE that room was made to keep stupid out of channel
 
5:42 PM
dunno, whether its a library or not, its community is huge. Anything which grows beyond a certain level is qualified to get more attention
 
ANyone know of a good internet bank
@AndyE I agree, it's mainly a barrier between them and us. i.e. elitism
 
internet bank?
hmm loktar.com has great rates!
 
Bitcoin?
:-P
Paypal?
 
@Loktar cool lol
 
yeah just email me the money, Ill keep it safe
Ill give you half the rates my bank gives me.
 
5:55 PM
HELLO
I need some help
Can I use Jquery to create a Fill-In exercise for students?
Like I could put a text there and it would show an tip for every textifield
and student should think what word goes in the field ?
Anyone?
 

« first day (403 days earlier)      last day (4545 days later) »