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3:00 PM
@Gordon Yeah I will just go with the integration ones. These unit tests add no value, just technical debt
 
@JayIsTooCommon * rubs nipples and licks lips *
I hate markdown
 
Anonymous
:-D
 
I am thinking about this @Wes sorry
 
I'm beginning to think that most of my infrastructure code just needs to be integration tested instead of unit tested. I unit test all my application and domain layer code but i'm starting to think I would be better off just integration testing infrastructure stuff since it has little to no logic and is just an integration point essentially. Does anyone do this?
 
no
 
3:06 PM
@PeeHaa what spec?
 
320
 
So is that actually 2ltr petrol? Those numbers no longer mean what they used to
 
I really need a car fast even if it's just temporary
 
320 bhp?
 
How much (money does it cost)?
 
3:08 PM
^ 310bhp, 3.5 V6, around 10k
 
Yeah that's an actual 2l
Unlike that 316i thing that's actually a 1900...
 
@Jimbo yes but if you buy a Nissan you end up with a Nissan
 
@DaveRandom Hey now, I owned one remember and it was epic, never missed a beat
 
@DaveRandom Not sure yet
 
3:09 PM
I'm not a wanker who buys a badge because I'm a badge wanker
(so never buying a bmw, audi or merc)
 
Anonymous
Just to impress you all, I have a Vauxhall Corsa 1.2
3
 
@Jimbo Yes and no way to dump my groceries :P
 
@Jimbo My concerns are build quality and parts cost
 
@JayIsTooCommon do you need parts? :P
 
I have not driven a nissan made in the last ~5 years but I have driven 2 in my life and they were both built very badly
 
3:10 PM
some of my vectra may fit :D
 
@JayIsTooCommon You are small, you can get away with that
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom I'm not small, you're just weirdly tall
 
@DaveRandom So you choose an audi or bmw for parts cost?
Modern nissans are fantastic, but then again it was just my experience with this one car tbh
and research beforehand
 
@JayIsTooCommon I physically struggle to get behind the wheel of cars that small, and I weigh a lot so those 1.2lt don't go as far
@Jimbo No I'd choose a VW
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa Yeah, new engine and chassis would be a good start :>
 
3:12 PM
And not for the parts cost, but because they are built properly so I don't need the parts
 
@Jimbo what's wrong with a bmw or merc? I drive a merc and I'd totally drive a bmw
 
@JayIsTooCommon hahahah. Unless you are really handy I doubt my engine would be of much use :P
@Gordon merc?
 
I drive a BMW, but I would not buy one with my own money
 
eeeew
 
@PeeHaa …edes
 
3:13 PM
blasphemy
 
@Gordon "You're a big posh sod with plums in your mouth"
 
Anonymous
I really want an A class tbf
 
@Jimbo why, thank you.
 
@Jimbo I thought you had a bike ;)
 
@Gordon Beware the edes of Merc!
 
3:14 PM
You either drive a bmw or a merc. Especially when you are german
 
@JayIsTooCommon I do have an A class
 
I am dissapoint
 
@Leigh I had both, and was in massive debt :P Now I'm debt free and about to buy a Ducati outright :)
 
Anonymous
@Gordon I fancy you.
3
 
@Jimbo I wonder how long this one will last
 
@go_oh I fancy you.
 
Nice! Does Jeeves map usernames on here to twitter names? Gotta be entirely manual though
 
yeah, I was kinda of amazed just now too
o/
 
apparently
 
3:15 PM
@Jimbo indeed, and my experience is based on not-recent ones
@Jimbo Gets it from the SO user profile
 
what name do you use for column, that contains "order" in DB table ?
 
position, listposition, listorder, listingorder
 
that sounds good
any other options (preferable single-word)?
 
hey, I want a christmas hat
 
... order?
 
3:17 PM
I use position
 
fuck_keywords_order
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier keyword
 
@JoeWatkins o/
 
order :P
 
@SergeyTelshevsky or.. `order`
 
3:17 PM
:D
 
yo bob
 
I couldn't write that with this MD
 
@tereško rank?
 
situational_awareness_indicator_snapshot
 
Depends on the specific entity in a way, order describes an operation rather than a property
 
3:18 PM
"rank" carries additional meaning ... I think I will go with "position" too
 
@JoeWatkins Get one of these, partypro.com/mm_PARTYPRO_/Images/20736.JPG
 
it doesn't look diversity elephoant is gonna make it ...
 
@JoeWatkins The usual curve of ks projects is a huge influx in the last few days of an underfunded project
Also there is a contingency plan, albeit an undesirable one
 
what is it ?
 
Mark will make up the shortfall out of his own pocket (although £12K might be a stretch)
 
3:23 PM
@tereško p. it should be called p.
 
I have a good idea for a plan B. Support diversity without needing a prop.
 
@Leigh naah ... you need a prop. It's for virtue signaling. Otherwise some will see it as "throwing money away".
 
what keyword should i look ?
 
@Leigh oh my, how out of the box ...
 
3:26 PM
@JoeWatkins Sorry, I really don't like these kinds of projects, I feel they actually do very little to promote anything.
 
I've gone back and forth myself
 
1 message moved to Trash can
 
if there was a good idea in it, it wasn't very well executed ... but it's easy for me to say that ... I dunno how hard it is ...
 
@Leigh .. also the title is really misleading
 
Anonymous
If it was to support a charity based on the subject then I would understand the need for the prop, but I'm not a fan of prop for props sake
 
Anonymous
3:28 PM
heh prop, what a weird word
 
Not really, as in "to prop you up". Something so you can feel better about yourself, or "prove" to others that you have an acceptable mindset.
Or convince yourself that you do
 
a proper mindest
 
I don't think women should be allowed to work, but if I get a rainbow elephant people will think I'm OK. :thumbsup:
2
 
Anonymous
^ :)
 
@Leigh as I said "virtue signaling"
 
3:35 PM
> They are kinda 'running on their own without anyone knowing how they are running'.
#lolphp
 
wat
 
Despite
 
> Bullet Tooth Tony: A bookie's got blagged last night.
Avi: "Blagged"? Tony, speak English. I thought this country spawned the fucking language, and so far nobody seems to speak it.
Remembered this after I saw @Jimbo's tweet
 
A few hundred lines changed in vm_def.h … TWELWE thousand lines changed in vm_execute.h ………
 Zend/zend_vm_def.h     |   385 +++++---------
 Zend/zend_vm_execute.h | 12592 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
goddamn autogenerated code ^^
 
3:46 PM
It's from a scene in Snatch
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins - What do you think about having final interfaces for example. Do you know maybe how big effort would be to allow interface_modifiers in the same way we have class_modifiers. I'm struggling with modifying language_parser grammar. Cheers
 
@bwoebi ha
@SilvioMarijic urm ...
you get conflicts when you try to modify parser ?
I dunno if a final interface actually makes sense
there's no implementation, why would you close the interface, how can you decide the interface is final without an implementation ?
I think it doesn't make sense
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins - I'm a little bit ;) I wouldnt close it from beeing implemented ofcourse. I would close it from beeing extended
 
doesnt final violate OCP?
 
it feels like something has been violated ... what, I cannot tell ...
 
user3018350
3:54 PM
@JoeWatkins I have to be honest. Final interface modifier was just example. The real reason is for immutable interfaces which are part of my RFC. So I'm trying to find out from some of you that are more experienced is it worth of changing parser grammar
 
you have the rfc written up ?
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins yes
 
What is an immutable interface?
 
yeah I was just typing that
 
@NikiC Dmitry has been trying to do it for a while.
I figured it had landed already ^_^
 
user3018350
3:55 PM
@JoeWatkins It adds constraint that every class implementing immutable interface has to be declared as immutable
 
What is that effect of that, though?
 
how do you declare a class as immutable?
 
Why don't people just make APIs that don't mutate?
 
@Gordon "I hereby proclaim this class to be immutable!"
 
user3018350
@LeviMorrison Because language doesn't force them to do that
 
3:57 PM
You just shout that as loud as possible
 
hmm, nothing happens. do I have to shout louder?
 
Well, I didn't hear you
 
you have the bell, and rest of the costume ?
 
@SilvioMarijic So if they want mutability they write it that way; if they want immutability they write it differently. What's the issue?
 
3:57 PM
I need the bell and costume? oh
 
@JoeWatkins Hear Yii, Hear Yii...
it only works with Yii
 
so the actual feature we are discussing is immutable classes, which you seem to think should apply to interfaces too ?
 
user3018350
@LeviMorrison It depends. A lot of times when you should be sticking with immutability, you'll go to mutable states just because it's easier and there is 'nothing' to prevent you from doing that.
 
@JoeWatkins it seems to be more constraints, a la generic constraints, which we also don't have
 
4:01 PM
@SilvioMarijic If a class has only an immutable API how are you going to 'easily' switch to mutable state?
 
@SilvioMarijic Yes but what does immutable actually mean in practice? You can't change the value of any property? What about private properties?
 
user3018350
@DaveRandom It means that properties don't have to be protected anymore. You don't have to do 'immutability' trough encapsulation
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins Yes, it might needs some updates, sorry
 
@SilvioMarijic Yes but does it actually make sense at the class level?
Surely what you actually want is read-only properties
 
or perhaps final from Java.
 
4:03 PM
or just, y'know, actual properties with accessors
 
user3018350
@DaveRandom It goes also per property base
 
open a pr please so we can see ci
 
user3018350
@DaveRandom You will be able to have some immutable properties on 'regular classes'
 
when you say things like " Memory optimizations.", or "Safe for concurrency", you need to follow that up with details ... if those things are theoretical, not actual advantages of merging this patch, then don't mention them ...
this rfc is too large
 
$email = new Email("foo@php.net");
$email->email = "bar@php.net" // Call will result in Fatal Error
I dont like that
 
4:06 PM
it needs to be broken down into component parts, even if you had an implementation that worked, it would be too large to get in at once ...
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins It's filled with examples. I also think that we should cut that
 
I should not be able to access the email over the property at all. it should implement toString. The object is the type.
 
user3018350
@Gordon What if there is no need for 'smart' serialization to string, just as in Email example
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins I do have working implementation, might not be pretty but it works for as far as it's tested
 
@SilvioMarijic I don't see a usecase where you wouldn't use an Email as a string
 
user3018350
4:10 PM
@Gordon It does, but do you need really toString for something simple as email in this example
 
Yes. Because that Email VO is really a String with added validation.
 
user3018350
@Gordon RFC proposes Immutability, VO's are just one application
 
@SilvioMarijic yes, I've quick glanced over it ...
I think there's a case for immutable properties, but don't think it's worth going further with class/interface/trait or any other kind of immutability ... and for immutability to work acceptably on properties, you need to solve the references problem properly, not just disable them ...
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins That is also first time I've tried to do something in Zend Engine itself, but I tried to learn as much as possible from rest of the codebase
 
user3018350
@JoeWatkins What do you mean by solving references?
 
4:16 PM
@SilvioMarijic yes, because you can also implement other castings/accessors
public properties never make sense imo
 
@JoeWatkins What's the 7.1 release status?
 
@bwoebi I don't even know, waiting for Davey
 
@JoeWatkins Is he still sleeping?
 
that slacker!
 
ah now this will be the last bit we need to make typed props acceptable ?
 
Preparing everything for static property types :-)
 
cool
 
What is the meaning behind the value in op1 for INIT_FCALL?
 
@JoeWatkins it will still need dedicated incdec ops, but that's not for now I think @Joe
 
4:23 PM
is there any way dmitry could make use of this in o+ ?
 
e.g. INIT_FCALL 112, "date"
 
@Dereleased From the top of my head, it should be the calculated stack frame size
 
@bwoebi size of all ZVals being passed in?
 
IS_UNUSED is just a prank
:)
 
@pmmaga No kidding =D
 
4:24 PM
@JoeWatkins not really. But we finally could introduce __getStatic and __setStatic
 
Seems like it's only true in result fields heh
 
@Dereleased basically, including the zend_execute_data
 
@bwoebi so what's route for getting this into master then ? not another rfc ?
 
@bwoebi yeah, cause 80 is the min size I'm seeing, for a call with no args, e.g. INIT_FCALL 80, "time"
 
@JoeWatkins well, __getStatic/__setStatic probably need at least a discussion on internals
For getting in just this patch, dunno
@Dereleased yes, 80 is the (aligned) size of execute_data
 
@NikiC github.com/php/php-src/compare/… … how do I squeeze that best into master without Dmitry complaining too much?
 
I am also interested in answer to that ...
 
@bwoebi hide it into something else
 
@PeeHaa into something I can be sure that it'll succeed, please.
@PeeHaa and tell me what…
 
@tereško I know I failed you on that topic last time, but if you had a music group to suggest, I'd be glad
 
4:31 PM
@PeeHaa this patch is not quite insignificant and cannot be well hidden.
 
Maybe ask yasuo
He tends to succeed in getting crap in :P
 
Initiated PCP [Punch Control Protocol] packet over IP
 
Is the entire pdo debugging thing v1 scratch?
As in what happens if v2 doesn't pass
 
4:49 PM
there is no php whatsoever in that list.
 
Anonymous
Which means it's... bs?
 
I think the correct BE term is interesting
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier need a music group to listen to?
 
Phish
they are touring up in your neck of the woods this coming spring iirc
 
5:14 PM
Let's say I have a PHP extension named "ardent" in "ext/ardent" for now. If I wanted other packages to be able to use my API from C then I should expose the stuff in "php_ardent.h", correct?
 
Hi, I have just discover this forums, and i was wondering if someone can give a really quick hand with url redirections
I did not knew about the chat rooms
 
thanks, i will give it another try, but my problem is "a bit more" complicated than usual @Ghedipunk but thanks a lot any way
 
Chat typically isn't a place for giving a general quick hand on a well documented topic. It's for helping find bonehead mistakes (leaving a semicolon out) or for getting opinions.
If it's more complicated, be more specific than asking for a quick hand.
 
yeap you are right man
sorry
didnt want to interrupt
have a nice day!
 
5:24 PM
Feel free to interrupt. There's not much discussion here...
 
hahahahahah
so.. should i expose my "question"
in fact.. im not quite sure if im even in the right chat.. as i need to do a redirection of a url but i guess it might be better through .htacces file
 
Yep, nobody's going to ask you what your actual question is, unless it's clear that you're stuck in a specific way of thinking about a problem, when the actual question will lead the more experienced to a different solution than the one you're trying. Don't ask to ask, just ask.
 
wow.. hahah that is a good answer
It is a bit long so let me phrase it
 
You are ignoring my question about ssh because you don't like me or you missed my ping @JoeWatkins?
 
My money is on both
 
5:31 PM
@PeeHaa The former, obviously.
 
:D
 
Also: TFW one single fundamentally unrelated test of these 12000 tests or such catches your fuckup
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa I support you in this decision @JoeWatkins
 
bitch
 
@NikiC the static_prop assign patch should be fine by now, could you please review it; I consider it quite unsusceptible to being problematic, though there may be some stylistic adjustments needed?
 
5:45 PM
@DaveRandom Part 2 done. Needed minor refactoring. :-D
 
What's the difference between invalidate_current and dtor?
Also it seems weird that get_current_data returns a zval * but get_current_key is provided one as an out parameter...
Uhm... look at _zend_object_iterator... isn't that a hazard if someone adds ad-hoc properties to an iterator? /cc @bwoebi
 
@DaveRandom The point mechanism there is stupid in a world of timezones.
 
@LeviMorrison well, the former just removes the current value of the iteration (i.e. what current() and key() return), the latter destroys the whole iterator
 
Is it ever called from the engine?
 
@LeviMorrison engine, no
 
6:00 PM
...why is this on the public API then?
 
@LeviMorrison because it needs to be consumable?
@LeviMorrison it's a purely internal structure
 
@bwoebi So if I'm making my own iterator in a C extension... what one am I supposed to use?
zend_user_iterator?
 
@rabbitguy thx! trying that now
 
@LeviMorrison not sure TBH
@LeviMorrison well, you use a normal class and set the get_iterator function
150 zend_object_iterator *(*get_iterator)(zend_class_entry *ce, zval *object, int by_ref);
 
Yeah but I want to define a custom iterator.
So I guess a zend_object_iterator since that's the return type of that function?
 
6:09 PM
@LeviMorrison yes
 
What is this data zval?
That name makes it difficult to search for.
 
@LeviMorrison which data zval?
ah in struct
 
@LeviMorrison A custom zval just… nothing particular
 
I am free to use it for whatever I want?
 
6:14 PM
@LeviMorrison I think
 
@LeviMorrison wat?
@bwoebi pls PR
 
@NikiC Yeah - remember constant propagation? If the constant is already defined then it has to bail out.
 
@NikiC wasn't sure whether I should PR this standalone
 
@bwoebi yeah
 
@NikiC github.com/php/php-src/pull/2226 in PR form here
 
6:28 PM
Sorry to ask another question I could probably just pore through the source for, but what is the meaning of the IS_UNUSED value in op2 for SEND_VAR (e.g. SEND_VAR ~3, 1)?
 
@Dereleased that's the offset (i.e. the first value to send)
 
Anonymous
About to play football in this weather.. my nipples are going to be a hazard
 
ah ok. I keep looking at these things in little vacuum examples.
@JayIsTooCommon it is 64 Freedom Units where I am.
 
Wes
6:56 PM
evenings
 

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