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3:00 PM
@nikita2206 I bet my money on !!xkcd standards
 
Anonymous
@tereško ping.
 
Anonymous
I need to ask you about a good mouse to buy.
 
Anonymous
I don't know anything about good mouses :)
 
I have a logitech g5 which is decent unless you are looking for a gamer mouse with twentysomething buttons
 
Anonymous
I don't know. I don't have any experience except with a simple wireless mouse, so I can't tell the difference. But I saw today on sale, so many of time and couldn't decide on which on to buy.
 
Anonymous
3:06 PM
Whichever is the case, I need a silent one.
 
Anonymous
I've seen mouses which don't make those click sounds.
 
@samayo I hate wireless x
 
Logitech G502 is pretty nice in my experience, three years without issues
 
Wes
wireless mice are so heavy...
 
@PeeHaa same here. always out of battery.
 
Anonymous
3:08 PM
@nikita2206 I saw something like that today ~89CHF. I didn't know they were that old.
 
Anonymous
maybe a new model ..
 
@Gordon So annoying
!!? 89CHF to euro
 
Search for "89CHF to euro" (https://www.google.com/search?q=89CHF+to+euro&lr=lang_en)
• 89(CHF) Swiss Franc(CHF) To Euro(EUR) Currency Ra… - Please visit Euro(EUR) To Swiss Franc(CHF). 89 CHF = 82.46964 EUR. Selling 89 CHF you get 82.46122… (http://chf.fxexchangerate.com/eur/89-currency-rates.html)
• 89 Swiss Franc to Euro, 89 CHF to EUR Currency Co… - Real time exchange rates, highly accurate. 89 Swiss Franc to Euro, 89 CHF to EUR Currency Converter… (http://u16201083.onlinehome-server.com/currency-converter/swiss-franc-chf_eur-euro.htm/89)
 
@samayo actually I think I confused the model number, but it looks the same as mine
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa If you are working from home, I guess it's fine.
 
3:08 PM
@samayo not silent, but I use shogunbros.com/commander/ballista-mk-1
 
82 euro for a fucking mouse?
What is this madness
 
Anonymous
Yeah, but there were also for 19
 
hmm, I guess the G5 is no longer manufactured… it sells on ebay for $339 USD ebay.com/itm/Logitech-931376-0403-G5-Laser-Mouse-/272277466361
maybe I should sell mine now.
 
:O
 
Anonymous
@Leigh Looks awesome, but silent is a must, I do my work from a library so I can't have that sound
 
3:10 PM
I would sell that right away
 
Wes
wat, 339. wat. not even if i were a millionaire
 
@samayo I can offer a used Logitech G5 for the bargain price of 299 USD… its used but in good shape. free shipping.
 
@samayo unlucky, I really like being able to calibrate x/y sensitivity independently, and then thumb toggle different sensitivities
 
Anonymous
@Gordon I'll pay 10% now, the rest when I see it :)
 
@samayo yeah the G502 is the usual recommendation
 
Anonymous
3:14 PM
@tereško Does it have a silent option?
 
Anonymous
It doesn't seem wireless also :\
 
my other mouse is a belkin mini. its quite silent but it needs a while to get used to since its very mini
 
Anonymous
Mini is nice though, very portable.
 
Anonymous
Plus, using a giant mouse with the cord in a public place is odd to me.
 
Anonymous
There are a lot of mini mouses, but none of them are silent afiak.
 
3:28 PM
G5 <3 love that mouse
G500 is it's older brother and recommended @Gordon
Well that whole series is good.
I'm using the G500 atm.
 
You are all crazy with your mice fetishes
 
Anonymous
exactly.
 
Spend a long amount of your hours with your hand on your mouse. Better invest.
 
I spend more time scratching my head :P
 
Anonymous
I'm crazy about a new laptop atm, I google, compare price go to showroom and check them out but the obsession is only to buy one and work on it without pain.
 
3:33 PM
though nowadays I barely use the mouse… I only use it when I am in the home office. At work, I am using the thinkpads trackpoint
 
Anonymous
Aside from that I don't really care about laptops that much
 
I actually have Mionix Naos 8200 mouse (really nice, but quite pricey)
 
@samayo the pain usually stems from the OS…
 
Anonymous
@Gordon Yeah that also.
 
3:47 PM
I've been learning more about copyright and licensing.
 
fun times.
 
I have a new distaste for projects with copyright notices in each file.
 
can someone help with a css issue... why does the page content shift on different page tes5bob.x10host.com/index.php?postid=69 tes5bob.x10host.com/rap.php
 
Because of the scrollbar?
 
It makes it really tedious to properly fork a project (as in OpenSSL -> LibreSSL).
 
3:49 PM
@PeeHaa what scrollbar?
 
How many scrollbars do you see?
 
oh
how do i stop the scroll bar shifting the page
 
Always show the scrollbar
 
i know but
could i add like a margin which would make the page shift like the scrollbar
 
What's wrong with my solution?
 
3:52 PM
so overflow-y: scroll;
 
I think that's the property yea
 
ok thank you
 
np
 
@bobjomes you would think, wouldn't you, but no
 
Is there something I should be adding to the Throw Error in Extensions RFC? It was criticized for being too short, and while I realize it's short, there's not much to say...
 
3:54 PM
I actually tried to pull it off once
Needless to say it's horrible
 
That would be user-friendly, and CSS is specifically designed to make web development an unpleasant experience.
 
@Trowski imho the changes should be summarized, so people don't need to be inspecting the PR to figure them out....
 
@Danack I could give a quick summery per extension. Describing each error changed would be tedious and unnecessary.
 
@Trowski it needs to be done for the release notes anyway.....
 
@Danack That's true... bah, ok.
 
4:02 PM
@Levi Any reason why the Reflection RFC is marked as in vote without voting widget and announcement?
 
Because I'm working on it right now? :D
 
@Danack Wait, you mean "more stuff and additional things" is not sufficient?
 
@LeviMorrison well, then you should have put it then into vote when you're done^^
 
If it hasn't been announced it doesn't really matter?
 
@DaveRandom You are not crafting one of your infamous PRs dude
 
4:04 PM
@LeviMorrison reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/4qm6cx/… … well there already is a reddit thread, lol
 
I swear it's fully automated by Rican.
 
lol
 
lol
 
@DaveRandom "Bad stuff will throw Error in extensions now instead of crashing and burning." There, nicely summarized.
 
K, doodle is up; here is draft email:
 
4:05 PM
@Gordon I probably will just switch to programming, rather than trying to use a gui tool.
@FlorianMargaine using Postman or Runscope allows non-programmers to test apis by clicking buttons, or just completing simple forms.....those things are lovely, and are fine for monitoring simple things (like is the API still responding) but I want to write tests that:

* creates a foo.
* adds a bar to the foo, and repeats adding that 3 time.
* tests updating one of the bars.

Those things are possible in Postman.....but you can't re-use actions across different tests....which makes creating them be really tedious. As this does sound like a programming problem, just using a programming lang
 
!!xkcd commit messages
 
The RFC for improving ReflectionType[1] is now in voting phase. The voting window is June 30th through July 8th. I have not finished the patch but I'll have it done before the end of voting.

  [1]: wiki.php.net/rfc/ReflectionTypeImprovements
 
Merge branch 'asdfasjkfdlas/alkdjf' into sdkjfls-final
3
 
haaaaaaaaaands
 
Look good?
 
4:05 PM
I totally forgot about that one. So funny :D
 
@LeviMorrison yes
 
@LeviMorrison ship it
I see @JayIsTooCommon has arrived so I am out for food. later all
 
Anonymous
Ass.
 
Gon
:P
 
:D
 
4:12 PM
wrong room
 
Gon
heh
 
Btw anybody looking for a job :D
 
Anonymous
@Abhishrek are you offering one?
 
My company is hiring :->
 
Gon
Umm... iirc there was a way to get some info on a seg fault in php...
what is it tho?
 
4:23 PM
Hi all! I currently have a bugfix PR against 5.5 that won't apply cleanly to master. Should I create a second PR for master?
 
@PedroMM No need
Note that the change will not go into 5.5
It might go into 5.6
 
ah! support ends in 9 days :)
 
mornins
> Don't underestimated my skills mate :p
 
ok, but so in any case you should always target the lowest supported version (that the bug affects). What is the process to apply the fix to the versions after that?
 
bye
good night
 
@SebastianBergmann Because of ReflectionClassType. It will use ReflectionClassType depending on whether the typehint class happens to be loadable.
 
@NikiC Thanks.
 
A quick question, when creating an extension in C, how do you create an instance of an separate object in the extension then return it?
 
@NikiC What do you mean "happens to be loadable"?
It triggers the autoloader just the same as trying to do new ReflectionClass($type).
 
4:36 PM
composer udpate should just be aliased to update.
 
The difference is it won't error if it's not there.
It just returns a simpler type.
What's not to like there, again?
 
@LeviMorrison The unpredictable return type, which is based not only on the type hint but also on the runtime environment.
 
It's predictable. It's always a ReflectionType.
This isn't a union type thing going on...
I also dont' understand the argument in this scenario.
If it can't be autoloaded you get a ReflectionNamedType.
This means it does not exist or won't by autoloading.
This is exactly the same scenario that will happen if anyone tries to use that type.
Depending on the runtime environment is always what we do for this stuff.
How is this problematic? In case there is any uncertainty I mean that question genuinely. You've cited this in the past but I still don't understand it.
$f = new ThingThatDoesNotYetExistAndWillNotAutoload(); // fails
require 'ThingThatDoesNotYetExistAndWillNotAutoload.php';
$f = new ThingThatDoesNotYetExistAndWillNotAutoload(); // works
This is runtime dependent, right?
Similarly if you use it in a type declaration somewhere and it isn't loaded yet you can't get the class info; just basic info about its name and whether its a builtin, etc.
So maybe using those examples you can help me understand your complaint.
 
5:02 PM
Hey
 
If a PHP router (Klein.php) expects to send an object for a JSON response, how would you guys go about implementing it? Currently using an StdClass object
 
Decode/encode?
 
Gon
Night o/
Is Feedr Down?
 
.com? :P
If yes, I got a temporary page
"http://feedr.com/cgi-sys/defaultwebpage.cgi"
 
5:19 PM
@NikiC Well, the choice is between a method getClass() on ReflectionNamedType returning null if the class cannot be loaded or using a separate ReflectionClassType. I find the latter cleaner as it doesn't have a getClass() method on a class whose responsibility it isn't.
The problem is that while this doesn't seem the most pure, every other solution I can think of are worse.
 
5:36 PM
@bwoebi Actually, the alternative is just not having it
 
@NikiC Is that really a good alternative?
 
It's completely unnecessary
 
@NikiC The current way is not really future compatible … AFAIK that's the point of the whole RFC in the first place?
 
It's an unnecessary API sugar that's at the same time also over-engineered and has confusing semantics.
 
@NikiC at least less confusing than current __toString magic
 
5:38 PM
@bwoebi The only important part of the RFC for future compatibility is the getName() method on an extra type
And I have no problem with that part
My problem is with the ReflectionClassType portion only
 
So, you think we shall not provide a getClass() shortcut method to receive a ReflectionClass?
 
correct
 
I think I'd be fine with both actually.
 
@tereško you work in Latvia ?
 
It's not very useful in the first place, and combined with the weird semantics and the need for yet another extra class, it makes not sense to me
Most cases I can come up with that need ReflectionType have no need for getting a ReflectionClass anyway
 
5:43 PM
I don't find the semantics so weird… It's not a must-have for me, but I imagined it to be a perhaps-nice-to-have
 
Even coming from that perspective, "perhaps-nice-to-have" imho has nothing lost in the language
@bwoebi They may not be so weird, but I'm sure they'll lead to confusion. Like people trying to check whether it's a class typehint by doing instanceof ReflectionClassType -- which would be wrong. Instead you're supposed to use isBuiltin()
 
@NikiC why is that wrong? If we ever get typedefs, checking against isBuiltin() would be wrong… [because they are not a class]
 
@bwoebi Because checking for ReflectionClassType doesn't tell you whether it's a class type, it tells you whether it's a loaded/loadable class type
Which in most context is the same thing, but it's nonetheless the wrong thing to check for, with the wrong result in cases where the distinction matters
 
are there any updates about lxr.php.net? (there are no updates at bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=72396 for past days)
 
@NikiC It depends on what you need. If you check today against isBuiltin and if that's false, pass it to ReflectionClass, you probably will get problems when names are not just class names and builtins
 
5:51 PM
Who needs low blood sugar when you can have these
 
@bwoebi That's a complicated question and should be handled when we actually have the necessary information
You're now designing against some vague concept of "typedefs", of which we do not know anything
 
@NikiC Maybe. Maybe not.
@NikiC I'm not designing against typedefs, but rather against names not being only builtins and classes.
typedefs is just an example
 
@bwoebi They are an example, but it's unclear what they are an example of
Depending on the implementation, it may well be that consumers of ReflectionType do not actually have to care whether it's a typedef, just like they currently usually don't care whether it's a class or interface hint
 
Yes, I might be wrong.
 
But in other implementation the distinction may well be important
We just don't know
In any case, if the distinction is important, then consumers of ReflectionType have to be updated anyway to introduce additional checks.
Unless I'm missing something, the only part important for forward compatibility is the ReflectionNamedType class
With that, everything else can be extended when the moment comes and we actually know what we're arguing about here
 
6:00 PM
^ \cc @Levi in case you're interested in Nikitas reasoning
I still don't dislike the ReflectionClassType in itself enough to be against it, but I don't disagree with you at least @NikiC
 
If I'm creating a PHP extension (for PHP 7) and I have two classes and one class has a method that needs to return an instance of the other class, how would one do this?
 
PHP7 Extensions? wut. I should probably start reading up on 7
 
I'm just not sure if I'm on the right track because Db needs to be constructed with a Handle object.
 
Anonymous
@Fabor holy heart attack, that looks nice
 
6:23 PM
@taco: Do you know how it would be done in 5?
 
@MarkWeiman smaller example gist of your problem maybe?
 
@taco: I just don't know how to init an object and then return it and I am not sure if I'm on track.
 
@MarkWeiman I took a lot and am not sure I can help. But it sounds like you're talking about a Factory Pattern
 
@taco: How about this, does the __construct look okay in db.c?
because I can just do it that way
 
6:39 PM
@MarkWeiman Can you use type-hints?
 
@PeeHaa @Gordon Rebecca is done: kelunik.com
 
@taco: A reoccuring thing while I'm doing this, I have no clue and there's almost 0 documentation on how...
 
public function __construct(Renderer $renderer) { }
^e.g. like that
 
@taco: In C?
There's the problem.
 
I was asking if you could do type hints?
tbh, i have no idea, sorry
 
6:44 PM
Hehe, no problem, but I don't think that's applicable here (unless I'm mistaken).
 
In javascript infinite reference loop is completely ok, when object property references some higher level of self.

Is the same true in PHP? What are your ideas? , i get this \*RECURSION\* word in printing selfreferencing array
And it works ... but is this an performance impact, or not ?
 
Anonymous
6:57 PM
@DaveRandom ping
 
7:09 PM
@samayo pong
 
Lol nice one @kelunik
Might want te make it case insensiti e
 
I think it might be considered ok, in programming overall
 
@PeeHaa I can probably use onBeforeCommand to lowercase it.
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom just wanted to ask you since you are into networking, where can I get some good eli5-ish resource on learning about networks, tcp, ip protocol?
 
Great. The towering PHP inferno on Security SE is now a hot network question
People are holding up register_globals up as an example of why all versions of PHP are insecure
 
7:26 PM
@C0dekid "Ticket ID:123" is valid JSON apparently, but it's a "string". I guess I will stick to using an StdClass so it has the JSON object since I'll be using K/V pairs
 
7:39 PM
Ah, now I understand why PHP is getting so many "critical" security issue reports
 
@animaacija yes, I do
 
There's a bounty for that: hackerone.com/ibb-php
 
Might I ask which company ?
 
@NikiC I love how you put it into quotes :-)
 
@C0dekid derp....I could just cast the array as an object.
 
7:43 PM
@bwoebi ^^
 
@PeeHaa Didn't think of that, that's a good point. Multiple attempts for the same value.
 
@animaacija dyninno
 
hi guys, i got 2 questions:
#1. what is the go-to web framework for php these days?*
#2. what are the good characteristics of a php developer? we want to hire a good dev but not sure what the requirement list should be..
 
@Nima are you a recruiter?
 
no i am ruby dev
+)
 
@Nima #1 depends (laravel, if you are just following the latest hype), but most of us here are actually preferring composer-drive assembly of packages ... it's kinda like gems, but sucks less
 
i guess laravel is the popular web framework?
ah ok perfect and the testing framework is phpunit?
 
phpunit is the largest one
 
@Nima yeah those are the pretty run-of-the-mill options
 
@Nima you will want to get someone who also knows SQL and (some) JS
and a good understanding of OOP
 
7:51 PM
awesome, thanks guys
 
8:02 PM
hi o/
 
Anonymous
\o
 
Silicon Valley reacts to Google calendar outage on Hacker News https://t.co/mgBqqG1AdZ
3
 
Anonymous
8:19 PM
@kelunik is there a way non students can buy a quad core X11 carbon?
 
@AdilIlhan LOL
 
@samayo Dunno.
 
Anonymous
It doesn't really make sense from business point of view to not sell something wanted by everyone to everyone. I don't know what their reasoning is
 
$_SERVER['REQUEST_URI'] returns example.php - how would I get it to return just example
 
ThW
You don't. Use string functions to modify the value.
 
@rdlowrey moinmoin :-)
 
@rdlowrey o/
 
@Trowski did you investigate a bit about the signals issue?
 
Drive-by comment by @rdlowrey ^^
 
If the spec needs some update, then be it that, but throwing random warnings or exceptions not specified by spec isn't the way to go @Trowski
 
8:34 PM
@samayo I've learned basically everything I know from Wireshark + Google + time. Don't have anything more specific than that I'm afraid.
 
@bwoebi No, haven't had time.
 
@DaveRandom I think Google + Time is a good universal answer to everything :)
 
Yup :-)
 
@bwoebi I'm thinking something may have to change, because there's now way to have multiple loops handle signals with libev.
 
@DaveRandom and the RFCs (which you find through google too… but … meh)
 
8:36 PM
@bwoebi yeh I was gonna say that but then I realised that a substantial amount of the time, when you Google something you need to read an RFC to find out, the RFC is in the top 3 results
 
Oh that's a cool looking site, evidently not very well SEO'd or I would have used it a lot in the past I suspect
 
@Trowski … or alternatively fix libev…
 
@DaveRandom yeah, I'm writing a dhcp server for fun these days, and it's very comprehensive
 
Oh I started writing a DHCP lib once, not sure where it went
 
8:39 PM
@DaveRandom the more I look at it, the simpler it looks
I spent more time on a clean architecture than on parsing the packets
 
@FlorianMargaine DHCP runs on layer 3, right?
 
@bwoebi yeah, UDP
 
oh, UDP … I was sure it'd run on top of Ethernet…
 
ethernet is layer 1
 
Layer 1 & 2
UDP is Layer 4
 
8:44 PM
oh?
sorry, my memory is failing me then
right, IP is layer 3, TCP/UDP are layers 4
@bwoebi I thought it was only layer 1?
 
yep
 
a quick glance at wikipedia tells me it's layer 1 only
 
Hi, I deleted my database by mistake and I create a new by import the database file. But when I go to webpage I got error of connection. (I use wordpress) An help?
 
The Open Systems Interconnection model (OSI model) is a conceptual model that characterizes and standardizes the communication functions of a telecommunication or computing system without regard to their underlying internal structure and technology. Its goal is the interoperability of diverse communication systems with standard protocols. The model partitions a communication system into abstraction layers. The original version of the model defined seven layers. A layer serves the layer above it and is served by the layer below it. For example, a layer that provides error-free communications across...
 
8:45 PM
take a look at logs @GregoryCh
 
@bwoebi I suppose that's a possibility...
 
Quick question, does this image not look a gray filled square with red edges on a white background to anyone:
(and if not, what do you see?)
 
same here @Danack
why you asked? i'm curious
 
@FlorianMargaine Ethernet protocol is Layer 2, Ethernet (as in hardware/cables) is Layer 1
 
it's a cmyk image - it appears pure black in an ancient version of safari.
 
8:48 PM
@bwoebi libuv appears to have no problem with signals in multiple loops.
 
@bwoebi ah, ok
 
@AdilIlhan which logs?
 
the web servers' logs
 
@Danack how ancient? Even with Safari 8 it displays properly for me
 
@Danack There is one pixel missing from the red boarder in the bottom left corner, in case that wasn't intentional.
 
8:59 PM
@bwoebi 5.1.10 apparently.
In unrelated news, I ought to buy a new computer.
 
@Danack wha… this version is … uh… 5 years old?
 
@Trowski let's pretend that you didn't see that......
 
Wes
@Danack do you want me to open my army of browsers? can test msie7+ firefox and chrome on linux and windows
 
@Wes found the web frontend dev.
 
Wes
it's rgb(125, 103, 94) in msie11, not grayscale
 
9:07 PM
@Wes that is gray.
 
@Wes if you don't mind - it would be interesting to know.
 
Wes
it's more brown @bwoebi
okay, starting the vms
 
@Danack why is there a very light checkerboard pattern on all corners of the red border? :-D
 
Wes
brown in msie10 too. same msie9
 
@bwoebi jpg encoding produces 'echos' in the macro blocks.
 
9:11 PM
so, not perfect quality…
 
jpg is horrific.....but good enough, particularly when you have high res images.
 
Wes
red X on msie8, can't even display. red x on msie7 too
 
That's slightly surprising.
 
Wes
9:22 PM
@Danack works in android 4.2 and it's 100,100,100. it doesn't render in android 2.something
these are the oldest webkits i have
 
@NikiC This will just make it uglier for the caller.
They then have to do:
 
@Wes thanks.
 
try {
    $class = new ReflectionClass($type);
} catch (ReflectionException) {

}
or:
spl_autoload_call($typename);
or:
if (class_exists($type, true)) {

}
This is particularly true if we end up with things that are NOT classes.
Enums, perhaps.
Forward compatibility with respect to the code I'm touching isn't really improved, but the code that uses it on the other hand should be better for future compatibility.
 

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