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8:00 PM
2. What version of PHP are you running?
3. What would you like to see from the PHP core projects in the future (some kind of ranked ordering)? Better training (docs, tutorials), new language features, language performance, stability
 
@LeviMorrison Everybody would scream consistency and performance
 
4. Classification of organization (if a wider PHP audience than the university)
@PeeHaa Consistency is not an option :D
 
:P
 
And it's why we would rank things; do people care about stability more than performance, for instance?
 
problem there is 2 fold. 1) what people want (need), and what people think they want are often very different things. 2) You're asking rather than measuring :-)
 
8:05 PM
@ircmaxell Sure, I know what people want and what they need are different many times.
I'm also not sure how to measure this kind of thing. Any ideas?
 
I'm not sure. But if you can answer that question, you'll get really meaningful results
 
This survey started because I wanted to see how people use PHP currently here at the university and what things they say they value.
 
and selection bias, of course ;)
 
Yeah, yeah. My wife has a degree in statistics so I know any survey I do is meaningless because it's all horribly done.
 
@LeviMorrison s/I do/anyone does/
 
8:08 PM
@LeviMorrison :D
 
So maybe I'll just stick to the university for now.
Won't try to target a wider audience.
 
Hey, NikiC, I don't think I've heard from you on this design: leviathon.homenet.org
Oh wait, I think I did. Scroll lag or something.
 
@LeviMorrison I don't think it's as good as the current one.
In particular the top bar seems over-prominent
I'm having a hard time looking at anything else on that page ^^
 
8:12 PM
2
 
I think I would try to put different navigation there (maybe what currently exists in breadcrumbs)
 
UTF-8 called, and it wants its characters back. Seriously, don't use htmlentities() for, well, basically anything. Instead, the proper API is htmlspecialchars()ircmaxell 10 secs ago
Yes, you still can inject a floppy and then boot it from the floppy! However, XSS is not possible via floppy, at least that is what IETF says how a floppy must behave (for 5.25 floppies, not so sure about 3.5 though). — hakre 31 secs ago
ROTFL
 
@PeeHaa oh .. the phpuniversity-guy
 
@salathe ALL of the recommended videos after that were tits.
 
8:19 PM
Ah that's right. I knew the name looked familiar
 
Except one.
 
@DanLugg I know! ( . Y . ) [censored]
 
:-P
 
so now can someone tell me if it's possible to deliver a website in Punycode encoding?
 
how do you do the strikethrough?
 
8:20 PM
foo
 
---foo---
 
@salathe Like ---this---?
 
Thanks guys :)
 
couldn't have those up there uncensored!
 
8:21 PM
( Y )
 
@salathe now you made 'em look like doped up eyes
 
That... could be a number of things.
 
@tereško doped up eyes are totally safe for work :P
 
Also note, your examples are incorrect: Proof. Your exact code produces identical results on all versions of PHP (all the way back to 4.3, though with notices for the lack of ENT_HTML401). — ircmaxell 48 secs ago
@PeeHaa some should be brought into core. And some should simply not exist...
 
8:28 PM
muhahaha, let's try this for your website encoding: tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jseng-utf5-01
 
@ircmaxell I doubt there is a big chance of that happening any time soon tbh
The "brining into core" part
 
@PeeHaa why not?
 
AFAIK the last time people were calling each other dicks and some stuff eventually ended up in core
 
maybe it's also fancy to encode as en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code
 
Wasn't there a lot of shouting between esser and internals?
 
8:32 PM
@PeeHaa yup, which is why it's worth trying again.
 
@PeeHaa Isn't that how it always works?!
 
@PeeHaa yes, and I'm not saying that it should be proposed as "port things from suhosin". but "Implement this security feature"
 
I completely agree with that sentiment btw
 
@NikiC well, maybe it's not always dicks but something different?
btw thanks a lot for that RFC about the syntax in PHP.
 
++
@NikiC how's progress on the AST going?
 
8:34 PM
@ircmaxell I've ported everything apart from top-level statements.
I.e. namespace + use basically
 
:-)
 
so should be done soon ;)
then merge upstream changes, use the arena allocator and cleanup
 
how's performance? Any ideas?
 
not tested yet
 
So it goes text > tokens > AST > ops?
 
8:37 PM
I'll test that after switching to the arena allocator - right now it should be awfully slow because all nodes are allocd
 
ah cool
I look forward to playing with it (and having it exposed to userland ;-)
 
Anyone want to see the Counting Crows in Grand Rapids, Michigan tonight?
 
I really hope the perf impact won't be too bad ...
 
With Toad the Wet Sprocket opening.... I have free tickets to give away :p
 
Would hate to have this rejected on perf grounds
 
8:39 PM
@ircmaxell What're your thoughts on exposing the AST to userland? As an expression-tree API?
 
@Chris it's a great show, enjoy it :-)
 
Heh, I am not going to be able to go
 
@DanLugg are you saying to convert it to nodes on-demand?
 
user895378
Ah Counting Crows ... soundtrack to my adolescence.
 
Hell, I might though
 
8:40 PM
@ircmaxell Oh, I think I just misread what you meant; but... yea.
 
Are the Counting Crows worth pissing my wife off a little bit?
 
nah, I'd have an api get_ast($filename) or something like that...
 
user895378
@Chris Does Adam Duritz still have sweet dreadlocks?
 
@rdlowrey yup
 
@ircmaxell Blah. I'm really hoping for code-as-data, inlined. Such that $e = expr($x * $y); stores to $e a tree.
 
8:41 PM
@rdlowrey They don't look so sweet anymore.i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02539/duritz_2539013b.jpg
 
user895378
Referral Denied

You don't have permission to access "http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BMjE3MzE5NTU4OF5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwOTk1MzEwNA@@._V1_SY317_CR6,0,214,317_AL_.jpg" on this server.
Reference #24.f073e17.1405975322.943affc
 
@DanLugg Well, as long as I have a way to turn an entire file into a tree, I'm fine with that
 
@rdlowrey refresh
 
@ircmaxell Oh of course. I'm aiming for language transformations, as done in other environments like LINQ
 
user895378
@PeeHaa same result with a different referral hash each time :)
 
8:43 PM
hmmm did work for me
 
Yeah, weird hotlink protection for imdb.
 
user895378
Maybe my ip subnet is blacklisted or something because of questionable traffic volume ;)
 
:D
 
@DanLugg well, that could be allowed by adding the ability to pre-process trees prior to executing them, which would be way more power than the vast majority of PHP developers should really have
 
@rdlowrey Quit looking up porn actresses.
 
user895378
8:44 PM
The real reason I wrote an http client!
 
user895378
Mass pr0n retrieval in parallel!
 
@ircmaxell :-( I don't think exposing something like that is too much power to give to userland.
 
can you draft up how you expect it to work (with some pseudo-code)?
 
@rdlowrey try in browser pref. with chrome. then copy as curl in developer network tab ;)
 
@ircmaxell Probably
 
8:45 PM
argh, stupid mistake
 
Damn, I thought I had something gisted already
 
9:01 PM
@SecondRikudo are you polishing your boots yet? :P
 
@webarto Luckily, I'm not
 
@SecondRikudo Hope it stays that way :)
 
Hey peeps, are there any hacking fourms on here?
 
Why should I send email using SMTP Authentication, rather then a server-side script?
 
9:08 PM
hacking is such a big word.. =] @TyreeBrown what kind of hacking?
 
My manager's asking me this question, and the only answer i can come up with is 'because it's better' lol
 
More "chopping" than "hacking"
 
Tek
Question. I found PSR-2 doesn't mention chaining methods. What do you guys prefer when chaining methods?

$this->method1()
->method2();

or

$this->method1()
->method2()
;
 
user895378
@TaylorWilliams Those two things aren't even related. More information is needed. "server-side script" could mean anything and it sounds like your manager doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
 
9:17 PM
sorry, i meant php-script. not server-side script!!! that's my fault
 
@TaylorWilliams You would be sending with "server-side script" in both cases.
 
user895378
If by "server-side script" you mean "a php script using the mail()" function then yes ... pretty much anything is better than that as mail() is more or less useless on its own when unconfigured.
 
user895378
But you can send mail using a php script that correctly authenticates via smtp
 
user895378
So the two certainly aren't mutually exclusive.
 
$this
->method1()
->method2()
;
w/e
I'm trying to express the fact that I prefer to use the final semi-colon in a fashion similar to a closing brace
 
user895378
9:19 PM
$obj->method()
    ->method()
    ->method()
; // If I have to, but I almost always try to avoid chaining because: don't like it
 
^^ yes
 
Tek
@rdlowrey Well, some libraries you know. Looks over at Symfony2's tree node builders :)
 
@rdlowrey thank you, do you think you could explain or link me to some more information on why using mail() is crap?
 
user895378
Jun 29 '12 at 1:46, by rdlowrey
user image
 
9:22 PM
thank you!
 
user895378
IMHO the mail() function should be removed from PHP entirely; it's not helping anyone and no real mail service will accept it because it's so easy to abuse and so much wordpress code has been hacked to do just that.
 
mail() should internally call @unlink(__FILE__)
5
 
thank you
 
user895378
@Charles yes!
 
Tek
@Chris @rdlowrey Symfony, pls. symfony.com/doc/current/components/config/…
 
user895378
9:26 PM
@Tek Are you laughing at Symfony or are you holding it out as a reason why chaining is okay?
 
user895378
Because the correct answer is the former.
 
Tek
@rdlowrey Haha. More like saying I don't have a choice. : P
 
@Tek What am I to do with this information, aside from reinforce my long-standing conviction that I won't use Symfony for anything other than an example of a framework that I won't use?
 
@Charles uopz_delete('mail'); uopz_function('mail', function() { throw new \Exception('gtfo'); });
 
user895378
Perfect.
 
9:28 PM
@DaveRandom Noice.
 
Tek
@Chris Wouldn't you at least say it's one of the lesser evils of most existing PHP frameworks?
 
@Tek That's like asking which STD one would prefer
 
Tek
@DaveRandom That's... kinda easy. I'd pick HPV :)
 
That's a pretty weird fetish you got right there
 
Tek
@DaveRandom Well I had to choose an answer for the analogy you provided me. HPV doesn't really show symptoms in men so I think puts the argument in perspective pretty well.
 
9:36 PM
> ...in some people subclinical infections will become clinical and may cause benign papillomas (such as warts [verrucae] or squamous cell papilloma), or cancers of the cervix, vulva, vagina, penis, oropharynx and anus.
As a man, I'm reasonably sure I have 3 of those 6 things...
 
Tek
lol
I'd rather take that chance than a terminal disease...
 
@DaveRandom vulva, vagina and anus?
 
No I was tragically born without an anus.
You don't want to be around when I sneeze
 
Tek
hahaha
 
My role in this room, by the way, is to lower the tone
 
9:39 PM
O_O
 
and the humility.
 
and sometimes the humanity
 
And the dignity.
 
also my hunger
/me throws up a bit in his mouth
 
Nah, Dave wont even share his phpies.
 
9:42 PM
@DaveRandom Choosing your favorite flavor of poop
 
lol guys
Too much 7, sickness and poop
 
@rdlowrey No but the whole thing is in for a major refactor. @Danack already did some work on caches, there's a little more work to be done, and I'm just getting ready to start work on handling multiple servers which will touch caching as well so... it's coming
@PeeHaa awesomesauce :-)
 
All right, going to mosh at the Counting Crows show. Have a good night guys, look for me on the news :p
 
@Chris Blueberry every time
@Chris show off :-P
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Cool, I'll push a (mostly) functioning artax refactor branch at some point tonight. Still a few things to get working correctly. TLS in particular.
 
9:53 PM
@rdlowrey ffs. I have got to write part 2 of that TLS article. I keep forgetting and being reminded at some point where I can't do it.
Also, awesome :-D
 
@DaveRandom :)
 
user895378
Jesus H. Christ, Julien.
 
user895378
Summary of twitter conversation forthcoming ...
 
user895378
J: I wrote an article about php and mysql go read it!
D: Hey do you know if anyone is working on mariadb support for php since our mysql can't do non-blocking?
J: Yes it can! Here's a link!
D: Yeah, no. That's busy-waiting and totally useless for real async. It doesn't even qualify as non-blocking.
J: You should use python or C or something lol
 
user895378
10:01 PM
And I discover why PHP sucks at concurrency: because php-internals doesn't understand concurrency.
 
@rdlowrey You mean like Bitcoin? That's a con-currency.
 
user895378
@Danack nice.
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Also, FYI, I benchmarked my not-thenable-because-thenables-suck concurrency primitives today ... 100% faster than React\Promise with the same functionality and an API I don't hate.
 
user895378
Because I hate Thenables and Javascript Promises/A. Did I mention that? Because I do. That API blows.
 
user895378
Like, a lot.
 
10:07 PM
@rdlowrey I don't disagree.
tbh any API that takes more than one callable in an fcall sucks for me
but it seems basically impossible to avoid...
I really wish there was a sane way to throw in async code
 
user895378
10:27 PM
@DaveRandom there is if you have generators :)
 
user895378
And php does!
 
user895378
anyway, will get to that.
 
Yeh I really really really need to wrap my head around that stuff
I get generators, but the way you use yield in async is just fucking magic to me at the moment
I'm sure it's simple enough when you understand it
 
user895378
It totally is. Took me lots of trial and error before I could get it through my thick skull.
 
user895378
But now I'm like ZOMG so simple! How did I not understand this!
 
10:30 PM
So the new Artax has a minimum PHP version of 5.5 I take it?
I ask because there's at least one place in Addr where I wanted a finally and I didn't do it to maintain 5.4 compliance
 
user895378
@DaveRandom no, actually I'm not using that in the new artax. Though I'm not against requiring 5.5 if you want. What do I care? It's not like I'm some company that lives and dies on the number of users and downloads I have.
 
user895378
Although, I'd prefer to still support 5.4 if possible just because.
 
^ me too
 
Do you think you're getting close to a 1.0 release?
 
user895378
10:37 PM
@cspray yes, actually. This next one will be 0.8 and I have a roadmap with a couple of very doable features for 0.9 (which will essentially be a 1.0 release candidate).
 
user895378
So hopefully within a couple of weeks that will be 1.0 ... just need to get feedback on the updates and make sure things are bug free first.
 
user895378
@Fabien whhhhhhhhhhhhaaatttttttttttt. How do I not own this.
 
@rdlowrey You'd fill yours with creatine and BCAA anway :P
 
user895378
true ...
 
I slammed 4g of beta-alanine earlier forgetting about the pins and needles it gives you.
 
user895378
10:39 PM
ha
 
I've never had pins and needles in my balls before.... -_-
Halfing the dosage and taking it throughout the day now.
 
user895378
Intravenous beta-alanine drip.
 
lol. You might be on to something.
 
I still prefer PHP6, but I really love the marketing potential for PHP7. I've been convinced enough to not be upset if 7 passes.
óÒ
Marketing potential, as in "the number is bigger"?
 
user895378
As in people will get excited about it and rally around/to the cause of PHP.
 
10:49 PM
Not sure I understand that
How will a version number make people rally?
 
user895378
I think userland frameworky types will get excited about it.
 
user895378
Don't get me wrong, I'm still voting for 6 all the way, but I just don't feel like being upset when 7 is chosen. I'm bracing for the impact.
 
user895378
Based on the voting in the initial thing before it got stopped I'd be really surprised if sanity won out and PHP6 was chosen.
 
I'm still not getting what the version number has to do with any of that...
 
user895378
It shouldn't, but human beings are irrational creatures. Especially the unwashed masses of php programmers.
 
user895378
10:54 PM
They'll see "PHP7" and be wowed by shiny.
 
user895378
But I don't see why we don't push out a PHP6 with a shorter time frame based on phpng.
 
user895378
Then really go big one year after that with PHP7
 
user895378
That seems like the ideal scenario to me.
 
People will probably piss themselves about the implied huge amount of BC breaks if we do that :D
 
user895378
A coder can dream.
 
10:56 PM
Like, whoa, upgrading two major versions, no way that's gonna work!
 
@rdlowrey Awesome. Glad to hear
 
user895378
Dear @gmail: I really don't like that all my github notifications are now showing up in the "Promotions" inbox. I can haz fix? k thx. bai.
 
user895378
^ Is that happening to anyone else or just me?
 
user895378
It's really annoying and it started in the last couple of days.
 
@rdlowrey yeh me too. I keep moving them back to forums in the hope it will learn
 
11:03 PM
Ugh. Over salted my eggs. Must eat anyway :(
 
So my dog just grabbed his dog bed and bolted down the stairs. He fell down about half of them. He stands up at the other end with a look on his face like, "I meant to do that"
 
Wonder what was going through his head
 
Probably something like.. "OMG THEY ARE GONNA CHASE ME! PLAY PLAY PLAY! CHASE ME! OMG"
The runs and walks through the woods that wear me out are just a warm up for him
So he gets back and I'm friggin' whipped and he's still wanting to go
 
When I was a kid I used to go round to this guy's house who lived a few roads away and he had this dog that would sleep against the aga and permanently had a huge burnt patch of fur on her back, and whenever you rang the doorbell you would hear her jump up from slowly cooking herself and run down the hall towards the door. The floor was polished wood, and every time she would get to about 10 feet from the door and start trying to stop, completely fail to do so and crash into the door at speed.
 
Nasty. Probably had nerve damage or something
 
11:10 PM
Once he calms down he's pretty lazy really. However, we just got back from a run that included a rabbit chase and this dog's prey drive is through the roof. He'll kill or attack just about any prey-like animal he sees.
He tries to attack butterflies through the door even. Quite hilarious actually.
@DaveRandom Fortunately he has no burnt patches of fur but he's ran into a wall or door quite often chasing after a ball or his own tail.
 
Yeh my cat actually chases her own tail, which I've never seen before
 
Hah, I'll bet that's hilarious too. I've never seen a cat do that either
 
Also I came downstairs in the morning once and I guess I must have left the big thing of cat food open because there was just a cat's arse sticking out and some annoyed sounding meowing coming from the bag
The other thing about that was her food bowl still had loads of food in it
 
Damn lack of Fibre. My area is a fairly ritzy part of town too.
My cat likes playing fetch every now and then.
 

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