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6:09 PM
Hi room
is anybody aware of wiki.php.net/rfc/php8/merge_symbol_tables status or any discussions about it?
 
8 hours ago, by DaveRandom
@Gordon Merging the symbol tables
 
@PeeHaa gosh, thanks ... and are you sure you are human and not a robot like Jeeves? You always know The Answer ;)
 
I am just very good at lurking in chat
 
true
@PeeHaa what do you think, how likely it will be declined/accepted (if ever will be bring to rfc and voted)?
 
It's internals. I would have more luck guessing all lottery numbers :P
 
6:18 PM
ffs, that's what killing me in php
and the hardest question: how to name a library that wraps php-v8 into simpler and user-friendly abstraction?
 
Naming things... I'm running away
:D
 
wait! I have a caching invalidation one too :)
 
CONNECTION ERRO....
 
Wes
@pinepain we discussed that just today, levi, ocramius, peehaa, daverandom are in favor, my guess kelunik too, don't know about bwoebi and nikic, joe is probably against it, gordon is against it, probably ircmaxell is pro it (my guess, though)
we would've started with a strict standard, "cannot use the same name at the same time for both a method and a property"
and effectively merge the tables in 8
 
do you have in mind when E_DEPRECATED could be potentially landed?
 
Wes
6:25 PM
i wanted to do for 7.2 but i didn't (still in time ish though)
apparently there is a lot of people that wants that, i thought it was just me and levi :B
so perhaps we will have a go...
 
wait, but what is it exactly preventing you from doing?
 
Wes
implementing the notice is probably not easy, and will impact performance a bit, as it will need creating the actual "merged" table now, even if just for holding the member names
 
Wes
o/
i would've had a table for static stuff (const, static props and methods) and one for actual members, but we cannot do that, as static and non static props and methods already share the same table
so there will be a single table only for everything, case sensitive (currently constants are sensitive, properties are sensitive, methods aren't)
so just the notice is going to be a mess :P but for a good cause..
 
ugh, last time i was looking into a way to implement first-class methods i decided I'd better switch to any other language rather then break the ice of internals (the community, not code)
 
Wes
6:35 PM
@kelunik can you vote now? also cc @Trowski would you support adding a "strict standard" notice: "cannot use the same name for both a method and a property" in 7.2/3 and actually merge the class' symbol tables into one in php 8
can leigh vote?
@pinepain i did this github.com/Netmosfera/Symbola which works. there are for sure problems, but so far i haven't found any :B would be awesome if php had that natively...
 
@Wes looks decent and scaring :P
 
Dan
My boss just posted this on slack
 
@Dan 403
 
Dan
Awe
One sec
 
@kelunik Might be a good idea to just have a different extension entirely if the API is going to change so much. /cc @bwoebi
@Wes So not a deprecated notice, but only if E_STRICT is enabled?
 
Dan
6:48 PM
user image
5
@PeeHaa ^
 
lol not sure if they like what you are doing or hate you
:P
 
@Trowski It's still uv, just a different version.
 
@kelunik Right, but if it's going with an OO-style API, maybe just fork it to a different extension and abandon the old, like libevent vs. event.
 
Dan
@PeeHaa Column A, column B... :-P
 
@Trowski And what's the new name?
 
6:53 PM
:D
 
Whats the reason for that?
 
@kelunik Perhaps libuv. Reason being that it's an entirely new API and unfortunately versioning with extensions doesn't work as elegantly as with composer packages.
So few people actually have uv installed anyway that it's probably a moot point though.
 
Is there an easy way to run both on the same machine?
 
That would be a good reason to have a separate extension.
 
As much as I would want to rewrite legacy stuff chances are time does not agree
 
7:13 PM
evenin
 
Being antagonistic towards Vampires is a motif in the majority of Werewolf fiction A lycan trope, if you will
 
@Leigh Coming over to Palma
 
@Jimbo we kinda needed everyone on board right?
 
@tereško I had to comment out stuff in development so that I was able to test stuff without code specific to production interfering, like recaptcha, but I didn't know that I could add local server names to google's end and recaptcha be able to recognize those as site domains
 
I mean, happy to solo it, but wouldn't be the same
 
7:16 PM
@tereško not much of an excuse, but if I didn't comment the stuff out, I would be stuck in testing otherwise, and I'm still getting used to the idea of using if ($env === "production") { ... }
 
All else fails, I can beach myself
 
@Leigh We didn't ask everyone :P
 
I did
 
@DaveRandom @PeeHaa @Danack etc (for those who I forgot), can you afford one weekend and 40 euros? You can stay at mine for free :-)
 
40 euros?
 
7:22 PM
What does it cost me to not stay at yours?
:P
 
you can stay in the garden for €50 extra :D
 
\o/
Also when?
 
He said end of June
and Weekend
so I guess last weekend in June?
 
2017?
:P
 
Wes
@Trowski yes, that's how levi suggested we should start
 
7:25 PM
I'm looking at flights out on 23rd, back on 26th, ~£100, not bad
 
!!skyscanner adam mallorca
 
@Tiffany it should probably be more like $config = include __DIR__ . "/config/$env.php";
 
I think I can do that
Is your mom coming too?
(asking for a friend)
 
She would if I invited, she loves a bit of sun
 
@Wes That would be reasonable. It is very common for properties and methods to have the same name, so we don't want to cause too much issue for 7.x.
 
7:28 PM
go ahead and invite her yourself
Is @Ekin coming?
 
Wes
it's not really common anyway imho @Trowski fields are nouns, methods are usually verbs or pretended with verbs. the only thing i had was $count and count() which is both a noun and a verb...
 
@Leigh I am going to say that's going to be hard for her
 
Why?
 
Wes
of course there are some libraries that use that style, but the vast majority follows the above i think
 
@Wes Maybe it's just something I do then… I have no actual data to back up that statement.
Or maybe it's because so much of my code has callbacks, so I'm using verbs for property names :-P
 
Wes
7:31 PM
:P
 
@Leigh Dunno, I hate the visa dance
Will keep in mind though, still plenty of time
 
argh, fucking visas :(
what about south coast?
Also, (because I'm a privileged UK person) I got no idea how visas work :/
although maybe soon I'll need to get a visa to go to amsterdam for the weekend, who knows
 
We don't want those drunk brits in our glorious country
 
@Leigh you will soon
 
next line slowpoke
but now you're here, think about Palma
 
7:36 PM
I've already dropped the mic today, everything else didn't happen
 
You could bring LadyRandom and uh... seed?
 
gmfdi
I am so bad at window focus
 
@tereško can you explain how it would work?
 
It's fine. You are great at everything else
 
I accidentally pasted a ~200 line SQL script into a terminal earlier
 
7:40 PM
sql is nothing
real men paste binary crap
 
@Leigh to what sorry?
 
Palma
 
@Tiffany the point is that the difference between production and development environment should only be the configuration
 
Anyone utilize a CMS at their work place? If so, what platform, and is it easily extendable?
 
sorry, PHP Mallorca 2017
 
7:41 PM
the uncon?
or... link?
 
@Tiffany we have been playing around with sonata-project.org, but I wasn't all that impressed
 
A+ 10/10
Would rescue princess again
 
i'll try to get my employer to pay for PHPSC tomorrow :D
 
@tereško hmmm, interesting. What weren't you impressed with?
 
7:46 PM
sorry the original was in a pub in London's east end
 
@Tiffany a lot of configuration magic, docs seem out of date and the versioning is inconsistent
 
@DaveRandom I'm sorry, but you can't do that with PHP
 
@tereško docs out of date is a point deduction. I'm debating on looking at stuff that requires set up (like Sonata would) or something like CampusSuite. Since I'm the only developer, I'm dependent on people who have no HTML experience to keep content updated.
And using something barebones may be too much for me to handle...
 
user6061856
Hello fellow people.
 
Hello fellow person
 
@Tiffany do you have any previous symfony experience?
 
@tereško I do not.
@FélixGagnon-Grenier wtf am I reading
 
then the learning curve will be somewhat steep
 
@Tiffany A reminder why we don't talk about Laravel in here
 
I briefly had the idea of writing a new platform myself, using current code as a rough guide, and scrapped that idea within a few seconds. A lot of the things I complain about would just get carried over.
 
7:54 PM
@Tiffany Actually, writing your own platform is a great way of understanding the challenges involved and thinking up solutions.
Although, I feel like it might be a bit of a big bite to chew for you at the moment
 
@Machavity still good
 
I might be wrong though, haven't really been active here for a while 😛
 
@MadaraUchiha Yeah, that's my thought. If there was more than me, I'd be all over the idea. I can't see getting approval for a project that I don't know how long it will take me and I'm not sure will work.
 
@Tiffany Oh, you mean at work?
 
I've only gotten slightly better :P
 
7:57 PM
And as a single dev, nah, I wouldn't
 
@Leigh Is there an official thing happening or just a bunch of people going there for a "conference" i.e. drinking
 
I'd certainly undertake it in my free time as an open source thing
 
Yeah, we're wanting to switch platforms from our custom-written CMS to something else.
 
But not with me being all of a company's R&D
 
our PR has done research on platforms, boss wants me to do research from a web dev perspective
 
7:58 PM
@DaveRandom It's just Jimbo's apartment
 
Oh, so medieval torture equipment is already provided, that will save on the baggage allowance
 
@Tiffany Steer clear of Zend Framework. Rasmus declared PHP was bad and Zend was like "Hold my beer"
7
 
I'll talk to Her In Charge
 
@Machavity noted. I doubt I'll get that close though.
 
calendar is clear for that w/e atm so it's a possibility
 
8:00 PM
I think my choices are something barebones but extendable, or something that has a lot of the stuff we need already built, but restricted by a third-party for development. Which actually might be a good thing.........
 
As long as there are no compromises on PHPSC
 
and I'm late for a meeting
 
I already have my sc ticket, barring untimely death I will definitely be there
@Jimbo where is you apartment? (for purposes of looking for hotel with reasonable radius)
 
@Tiffany my recommendation would be: try Sonata's "admin bundle"
if you cant make it work in 2-3 days, then scrap everything and look for a different solution
and, btw, using Wordpress purely as backend CMS is also a viable option
 
@Machavity still true of ZF3? (not looked at it at all)
 
8:06 PM
I was planning on crashing on his floor, you may have standards, but I sure as hell don't have lower ones
 
@DaveRandom ZF2 got better (ZF1 was before autoloading) but it still had a confusing ORM
 
Was Peehaa working on a CMS sometime back?
 
never used ZF3
 
@iroegbu only if the C is for a rude word
 
@iroegbu Yes, but then business moved in another direction
 
8:07 PM
@Leigh If I am coming it will be with family
 
If it was really cool, it'd be in reverse
 
@Trowski the API won't change? … except that is_resource() will fail and is_object() succeed
 
@Leigh Reverse physics, take a dump and then tell me you prefer it that way.
 
@DaveRandom It's in Santa Ponsa, though seriously dude, you've seen the pictures, why wouldn't you want to stay there?
 
Could feel pretty good
Also, I obviously meant if he spun the key into the hole from a remote position with it flip flopping on the way
 
8:19 PM
12 mins ago, by DaveRandom
@Leigh If I am coming it will be with family
inb4 yes they would mind, and so would you :-P
Is that a very round hill or justa fucky road layout @Jimbo? hard to tell from Google maps :-P
 
I'm like, there :)
Bit of a fucky one way street
But i'm not on that super round hill that's south of that
@DaveRandom And hotels will cost you a bomb
Although the conference one (Catalonia Majorica) isn't super expensive (where the conference was held)- and car rental is about 10 euros a day
 
@Jimbo "nuke here" ?
 
@Jimbo not completely ridiculous, ~£300 incl flights on a quick expedia search (3 nights thurs-sun)
It's not cheap but better than I was expecting
 
@bwoebi If that's your plan that sounds great.
 
@Jimbo you were talking last weekend of June right?
 
8:36 PM
 
@Jimbo did you say you were going to PHP Serbia?
 
I saw "Nudes" at first, I should get some sleep
 
Wes
8:48 PM
@NikiC WHY is php so unnecessarily COMPLEX, with this PropertyProperty madness
do people actually write public $prop1, $prop2;
i hate theeeeeem
 
@Wes Because of people like you, you know?
 
Thanks.
I think Wordpress/Drupal has been a consideration.
 
Wes
i never did that, why you offend me
 
@Tiffany not drupal. Trust me on that one.
wordpress is bad, but it is "just bad"
 
Wes
wait drupal is worse than worstpress?
 
8:51 PM
drupal is a perversion and their community seem to be imploding
5
 
@Wes I remember distinctly you saying a number of times something along the lines of "just because there are few use-cases doesn't mean we shouldn't include the feature"
That's exactly how this happens
 
Wes
@NikiC what was it?
 
@Wes That happened more than once, I don't remember specifics
 
Nikita is a mean drunk, clearly
 
@Wes there are several issues causing a perfect storm: they attempted to migrate it to symfony, but about a half of the community said "fuck that" and instead kept writing in the "old style". And then they decided to jump on the social-justice bandwagon and have been going on "ideological purges". Basically, you have a project, that seem to be going for a "half refactored" state, whole bleeding away talent. It makes for really bad long-term investment.
 
8:54 PM
@Leigh Nah, I'm just mean :P
 
All PHP needs is an alloc, memcpy and call function
the rest can be implemented in userland
 
@Leigh I like how you added memory leaks as a built-in feature there :P
 
meh, python has a huge stdlib, but it doesn't have the same drawbacks as PHP's
 
eh, no, you clearly memcpy some shellcode to scan the import table for the offset to call free
 
stdlib and language level features are different
 
Wes
8:56 PM
@NikiC it feels that things that might be useful are missing, while we get overkill stuff like this shortcut for avoiding writing "private"
 
Big reason php stdlib sucks so much is that it's all written in C
 
@NikiC yes, and I thought we were talking about stdlib :)
@NikiC that's true.
oh so true.
 
Not because C makes it buggy (it does), but because C gently guides forces you into shitty API descisions
 
the stdlib would get so much traction if it were written in PHP, and so many people could contribute
 
We can rewrite in Go if you like..
 
8:59 PM
we need to rewrite PHP in Erlang instead of C
 
@Leigh did you drink the Sara kool-aid?
 
Seems like a waste of Erlangs features
@FlorianMargaine No, I've been playing with Go for like a year now
maybe more, dunno
 
liking it?
 
Anonymous
@tereško Why not rust?
 
I am :)
It has definitely added a bit of fun into side-projects
 
9:00 PM
traitor, how dare you write in anything else than PHP?!
 
@samayo He's not literally made of steel
 
I... am experimenting with PHP extensions written in Go... is that allowed?
 
Anonymous
:)
 
(my current side-project is writing a multithreaded event loop, trying to reproduce golang runtime.)
 
@samayo it clearly is not cool enough
@Leigh HERETIC !!
 
9:00 PM
@FlorianMargaine Ori hinted that you have some passion apart from PHP
 
BURN HIM AT THE STAKE
 
@Leigh did he mention Li...?
 
For a moment I thought he said EVE
but he was across the table, I missed it
I mentioned I know you, he said do you know him from "bleh bleh pampelmousse"...
 
something like this?
@Leigh lol
 
I better not be chided for laughing at you guys, dammit. I am working!
 
Anonymous
9:02 PM
Rust is the coolest thing. The popularity is exploding. Too bad the learning curve is steep
 
Meh @ Rust, I tried it, it was hard
 
Anonymous
off topic: has anyone seen "kubo and the two strings"?
 
@Leigh he's not a fan of grapefruit then
 
then when I tried it again it was all different
 
meh @ rust, I tried it, it wasn't hard, but it was verbose because you need to go unsafe mode as soon as you want to do any real work.
 
9:03 PM
@samayo it's somewhere in my "watch later" list
 
and unsafe mode requires typing 50 lines of code for something simple
 
@samayo yes, enjoyed it
 
Anonymous
Yeah, it looks good.
 
Maybe it was hard for me because I tried reading docs before diving in.. the memory borrowing shite was always on my mind, and I had no idea what was actually going on under the hood
which is why I like C... it's all very boring
 
I think it might be the last movie I saw in theatre. Not because I haven't wanted to watch anything else, but because I watched it with someone who wanted to see it. And I feel weird going to the theatre by myself.
 
9:04 PM
@Leigh absolutely
 
predictable, I'll take that over fancy stuff any day
(as long as we're talking code ;))
 
Rust is not really doing magic though, the compiler just doesn't let you do what you want to do without sacrificing your first-born
 
also, I have decided I don't like Paris
 
Versailles was alright, but Paris was kind of horrible
 
9:06 PM
depends where you're going really
 
anywhere away from the 18th arrondissement was usually a good choice
 
@Leigh Yep
Although not 100% on date so will need to confirm Maybe 23rd/24th/25th
 
How essential is it that the variables is declared after bind_param? Can I declare $val before or do I have to do it after?
 
@Jimbo it's approximately what I was thinking :)
@William82 I'd say logically, you want to have all of the values you're binding defined before you bind them...
 
@Leigh Thanks. I just needed to be sure of this safety-question.
 
9:12 PM
Is bind_param the one that lets you change variables and then re-execute the query for different results?
I usually use execute straight up
 
Anonymous
@tereško add "Passengers" into the list. I was it recently and it was good
 
(with an array of key => value)
 
bind_param opens the door to the database first, and then sends the values.
 
@samayo from what I have heard - it was somewhat creepy :(
 
Anonymous
nope, not at all.
 
Anonymous
9:14 PM
It's a sci-fi
 
Anonymous
Just don't let the trailer ruin it for you.
 
@William82 binding is done by reference
(which is one of the reasons I prefer PDO's bindValue() instead)
 
is there some benefit of bindValue that I've missed over execute([':placeholder' => $value]) ?
 
@Leigh yes. the only sane-ish use case is when foreach ($array as $id) {/*execute saving one line*/}
having precendently bound $id width bindParam
 
but that's with Param, not Value
 
Anonymous
9:17 PM
I always use placeholders "?" and never bothered with bind*() stuff.
 
@samayo I started with that, then started using named placeholders. I prefer it now
 
@samayo names are verbose, it'll tell you when you fucked up instead of carrying on
ok.. sometimes
 
Anonymous
Eh, maybe the next time I write something I will check it out.
 
also verbosity shows your intent more clearly to people who read it later
 
tbh, I made the switch when having more than 20 params in a query. making sure to keep the order right is bothersome
 
9:21 PM
@Leigh fyi the : at the start of the array key is unnecessary (a lot of people seem to not realise this)
 
just because PDO actually adds it afterwards if it's not there
 
I know it, but still put it in
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom TIL
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier TIL too :)
 
9:22 PM
:P
 
I knew I didn't need it, didn't know about the hidden magic
stupid hidden magic everywhere
 
That's just an implementation detail though
 
aren't we all...
 
@Leigh The ability to use int data for stuff like limit
 
Anonymous
9:23 PM
!!docs pdo
 
[ PDO ] Represents a connection between PHP and a database server.
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom is that actually in the doc?
 
@PeeHaa you can use named params for limit
 
@samayo yes
 
@Leigh no, I'm deep rooted technical debt at the design level.
 
9:24 PM
@Leigh It's not about naming or not
It's about being able to pass the type or not
 
I'm... like 99% sure I pass values to LIMIT via execute without using bindValue
 
Maybe it depends on the dbms / driver
 
it'd be pdo_mysql
 
Surely that needs an actual int
 
9:25 PM
not willing to write the boilerplate to test right now :P
 
I believe there is some hidden magic as for the colon. I'm pretty sure I have already executed limits with strings
 
Surely some poor sod was confused on SO
 
... maybe not, I don't know
 
4
Q: Problem with mysql LIMIT and PDO

CremboTrying to do the dreaded pagination using PDO, but I can't find an answer fitting my situation: $pageVar = 10; $startRowLimit = ($page * $pageVar) - $pageVar; // returns correct value $articlesQuery = "SELECT `ID`,`Title`,`Text`,`Poster`,`Date`, ( SELECT `ID` FROM users WHERE article....

 
9:28 PM
@Leigh You may have been running emulated prepares though
 
@PeeHaa use-the-index-luke.com/no-offset //cc @FélixGagnon-Grenier
 
That has the same issue though :)
 
Wes
@NikiC is there a reason you added "return null;" explicitly in some methods in php-parser?
it's gonna be phpstorm complaining about "void method results used"
 
A method that explicitly returns a value on any path should explicitly return a value on every path
You cannot argue with that, mostly because I am going to bed
nn
 
Wes
ahaha
gn \o
 
9:39 PM
@DaveRandom What's the fun in that?
There
Argued
 
@Trowski github.com/felixfbecker/php-language-server/issues/… have a look at that question please. I'd like to avoid reiterating myself without really answering his question.
 
Ah shit, I need a FactoryFactory
 
9:55 PM
@Jimbo if you think you need FactoryFactory in your code, it is a sigh sign from the great Beer God.
 
Yeah, I've been at this too long today now... I'm on: getDispatcherFactoryClassNameForExecutable
 
ah, you are still banging you noggin against that particular brick wall
 
Am very close, except that if I want to scale this particular solution I either use Encapsulated Context (basically contextual service locator) or introduce Auryn
 
10:12 PM
or you could just use a laravel facade
 
and an ice pick
 
Would rather have an ice pick to the face
 
10:34 PM
so is this some sort of module loader or something?
 
How many here has CS degree?
I want to know should I go get mine.
 
I don't have one... but wish I did
 
Why you wish?
 
some more abstract concepts would have been easier to learn in a classroom setting.
 
I see, but does that really make a huge different in your everyday programming?
I really want to know if it would have impact on employment statues.
 
10:48 PM
depends on what "everyday programming" looks like for you
I think it has more of an impact now then it did 20 years ago
also matters if you want to work in the corporate/government world
 
I want to work in Government.
 
@Leigh Yep
 
Many Government and Government contractors require educational degrees (at least in the US)
 
Agree, I guess I'm going back to school lol
 
I was a lucky exception
 
10:59 PM
Me too... but I got in a very entry level IT role.
And like I said... that was 20 years ago
Best thing to do is look at job listings for the jobs you are interested in and see what the listed requirements are
 
I did, they all say B.S degree or Equivalent experience. What hell count as Equivalent experience? lol
 
If you know any tech recruiters personally I would talk to them as well...
 
11:34 PM
Err guys... 3v4l.org/cFFGX
Do we have array of??
 
not native
 
Yeah, but effectively, and I've only just noticed
 
yes we do
except there are definitely some limitations
but I've used that before
 
I've use this a couple of times
 
11:49 PM
@ircmaxell Nice, I've been moaning about ArrayOf[] for ages
 
yeah, there are some limitations and performance penalties to using unpacking like that, but overall can be good
 
I want generics but an ArrayOf would solve about 80% of the issues
 

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