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11:00 AM
fuck apache httpd
 
is that a request, or a statement ?
 
@JoeWatkins NL again
 
@PeeHaa ah, what weather you got there then ?
 
Anonymous
I'm in NL on Wednesday, it better sort itself out otherwise I'm going to complain.
 
@JoeWatkins Rain, fog, wind
 
11:03 AM
that was rather mean for a moment there
 
Fag will be here wednesday
:P
 
Anonymous
lol
 
so you really do have my weather ...
 
Yeah
Have been telling it to go back the entire day now but it's typical asshole UK brexit behvior
 
you should build a wall
 
11:06 AM
yes, a wall will keep weather out
 
Is there a recognized way to add tests for methods which yield?
Just looking at a lot of plugins and core components for Jeevsies
 
invent one
invent it as a part of phpunit not jeeves, then pr the changes to phpunit
 
I've got 16°C and light rain shower :( feels gloomy after all the sunny weather the last couple days
 
@Sean amp/wait()
 
Also is there any reason why Amp's Promise object doesn't extend Generator?
PHPStorm always gives me angry prods when I return Success() etc.
 
11:09 AM
@PeeHaa I think phpunit lacks a way to assert anything specifically about generators though
 
@JoeWatkins yes you would need to resolve it to assert it
 
@Sean Generator is final
 
@PaulCrovella Ah.
Yes that would do it
:P
 
@Sean What does it complain about in specific?
Just declare the return as Promise
@Ekin :(
 
11:11 AM
@PeeHaa Yeah, the returns were originally as \Generator. Nowadays they's just no return type declaration. May as well just switch to Promise though.
 
I got 13 degrees and sunny, hardly any wind ... maybe 8 kmph ... so basically british summertime ...
 
@Sean Imo it should be Promise
 
Yeah, considering it works in Amp
It makes total sense
 
At least for the "edges" of the packages / api
 
are you working on testing jeeves @Sean ?
 
11:12 AM
having a proper way to specify yield/return types on generators would be lovely
 
@JoeWatkins I've written some basic unit tests but nothing actually testing the innards or anything around promises
 
async function foobar(): int
pleeease
:D
 
that would mean something else @PeeHaa
 
It's what I want
 
it's good to want things
 
11:14 AM
you couldn't yield from it ...
 
When a dev forgets their private key passphrase and needs me to update all the servers with their new bloody public key.
Mondays. ARGhhhhh
 
you may not need too whatever ... but it doesn't solve the problem of generator return types ...
something in the direction of generics would, because Generator is generic ... so Generator<int> would be okay ...
 
Yes that's going to happen anytime soon :P
Fix it Fix it Fix it Fix it Fix it Fix it
 
omg, I mentioned generics ... brb, whipping myself
although maybe it could happen before generics ... generics is a vastly complicated topic, but there are a few places we could implement quite simple stuff, like ^^ and then full blown generics feels less alien, less complex ...
it isn't really less complex, but it feels it ... and we all know programming is about feelings ...
 
you mean we all feel programming is about feelings
 
11:18 AM
yes, yes
 
@Saitama pong
 
moin bob
 
moin Joe :-)
 
11:21 AM
the bbc picked up the story about uber ... uber has completely destroyed their chances of hiring any female talent in the uk ...
 
and... the thing is I cannot reproduce it anymore...
 
hey james
 
also, mornings
 
11:22 AM
@JoeWatkins any thoughts on how we could specify a generator yielding one type and returning another?
 
@PaulCrovella urm ... urm ...
do they need to be distinct ?
 
would prefer it
 
maybe Generator<ytype : rtype>
that's nasty ... strike that from the record
no good ideas
 
Wes
Generator<K, V, R> : Iterator<K, V> ?
 
11:25 AM
@Wes less nasty
@PeeHaa who dat, and why holy fucks ?
 
@PeeHaa I take it something dramatic happened?
 
Only thing I can find is the rollback war between him and mods on his answer meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/343685/revisions
cc @MadaraUchiha
What did he say to warrant such a harsh ban?
All mods have poop faces?
 
Why was Undo being an asshole there
Oh wait, he kept changing it to third person?
 
@JoshCaswell: I can confirm that the rollback war is not the whole picture. Suffice it to say there were other circumstances and a history. — Martijn Pieters ♦ yesterday
 
It's his post, he should be able to do what he wants
 
Wes
@JoeWatkins /me doesn't even know why the return is needed on generators :B
i should have looked into async by now...
 
@PeeHaa cartman is my hero ...
 
Anonymous
@Jimbo still, why does it matter? am I missing something?
 
@JayIsTooCommon It doesn't, but looks like one of the mods got on a power trip
 
Anonymous
11:32 AM
@Jimbo yeah thought so
 
It's the sort of thing I'd do for a laugh - keep changing my post back ever so slightly
 
Wes
@PaulCrovella no idea what that means. but i like your hair
 
@JayIsTooCommon undisclosed affiliation with something you're directing someone to offsite = spam. (oddly enough you can get away with a lot of actual spamming simply by disclosing your affiliation)
 
moin
 
if you think the world didn't laugh at america before trump.. i um.. i have some bad news for you.
 
Wes
@PaulCrovella so basically in an async app, all return types will be :Generator ? :B
 
Anonymous
@Stephen ^^ :D
 
Anonymous
moin david
 
Good day, Baroness Too Common
 
11:40 AM
haha
 
@Wes not all of them, but a bunch will yeah
 
@Wes No
The return types should be Promise
 
@Sean @PeeHaa 2 things w.r.t the external module for plugin APIs: yes I think it's a good idea in principle, no I don't think it's a good idea right now. I think we should have a future scope discussion where we determine how viable it is to break plugins out into their own process space (Uncle Gordon suggested we could use Docker containers?) because if we did that there would likely be some breaking changes to the API.
 
If you had generics, it would have been Promise<TypeOfValue>
Generator is an implementation detail.
 
Wes
right
 
11:42 AM
I want to get to a position where we have a stablised API and can start with a 1.0 and follow semver
 
Makes sense to me
Moin btw
 
you have an engineering problem. someone on your team suggests you can use Docker to solve it. now you have 2 problems.
 
morn
 
3 really, because you have to find a way to fire the guy who suggested docker.
 
11:44 AM
lol :-P
 
@Stephen -.-
 
you can't say bad things about docker ... they will come with their pitch forks and .... pitch fork you, I guess ...
 
Anonymous
saucy
 
@JoeWatkins everyone says bad things about docker
at least everyone who has seriously tried to ops with it
 
Well I only recently learned anything at all about it, and I must say I do like some elements of it. It certainly does make sense for the lxr use case.
 
11:47 AM
didn't I hear you defend it's use in production the other day ?
 
It was a pretty steep learning curve that I am still climbing with difficulty though
It's pretty retarded that it doesn't remove exited containers nor are names reusable by default
 
@JoeWatkins I objected to the claim that it was not meant for that
and Daniel mentioned they are using it in production
 
I hate it
 
@DaveRandom very retarded
 
11:49 AM
not everything needs to be a container ... where container means a virtual machine ... virtual machines running inside virtual machines, that may even run their own virtual machines, this is a terrible idea, I don't care what anyone says ...
 
a container is very much not a vm
its much less isolated
 
@JoeWatkins You'll be saying that the double layer of reverse proxy for lxr is a bad idea next
 
@Gordon why has every container I've ever run created a virtual machine, and executed in a virtual machine ?
 
because you used an old version of docker on mac os :)
 
I don't do mac
I'm using ubuntu 16.04
 
11:52 AM
then docker will not create vms
 
but but ... it does, as a matter of fact
 
no, latest docker uses runc.io and containerd.io
 
I probably don't have latest of that, installed on ubuntu 14.04
 
a container is really just process isolation. it uses namespaces, cgroups and chroot
 
I'm very glad to be wrong though, I shall read about it and update my opinion accordingly ...
 
11:53 AM
@DaveRandom Had this exact same issue.
 
I only hated vms inside vms inside vms aspect of it ... isolation is perfectly sensible thing to do
 
Step 1: Make whale talk. Step 2: ??? Step 3: use docker for a real use case
 
a docker container is a container full of NIH and Daddy-Didn't-Love-Me issues
containers as in LXC/LXD can be useful
Docker is for masochists who think its fine to run a 0.0.0.1-pre-alpha for a mission critical system
6
 
@Sean very much so. My Dockerfile had roughly 1trn iterations, and every time I rebuilt it after realising some new thing I had to go through a huge apt-get routine. I still do not fully understand the point of VOLUME or EXPOSE, they are a total mystery to me.
 
11:57 AM
also, like many modern projects/companies, their imagery is quite disconcerting. whales are fucking terrible transport devices for shipping containers, mostly because they tend to spend most of their time underwater.
 
twitter.com/_DaveRandom/status/833423382708363268 (thread) @Leigh in particular I would like your thoughts/opinions on this, but anyone else who has something to say is welcome to chip in - subject is handling unicode in passwords
 
i guess its about as appropriate as the term 'cloud'.. a gaseous shape that literally disappears with a gust of wind
 
It's not interesting at all. Password is a binary string, hash it, job done.
 
@PaulCrovella woah, thanks
 
11:59 AM
@DaveRandom Why would you even do that?
 
Usernames, sure you want to do unicode stuff. Passwords, no, just treat it as binary
 
like wtf
 
@Gordon none of that is news to me at all ... the only thing that's news to me is that docker doesn't mean virtual hardware ... when did this happen ?
 
@DaveRandom yuge learning curve. It's not really ready to be used. But I'm have happily setup my development environment on it. It was like hell
 
@Leigh Not even sure about usernames tbh
 
@Leigh how do you guarantee that the browser will always submit it to you in the same encoding/normalisation form?
From a user PoV, that could cause some major wtfs
 
@DaveRandom The browser is consistent
 
@JoeWatkins afaik it only used a vm on mac because it needed boot2docker to boot a linux. I am not aware of requiring a vm on linux ever.
 
@MadaraUchiha At least you hope so.
 
@DaveRandom Because all browsers do pretty much the same utf8 thing?
 
12:01 PM
@MadaraUchiha every browser is consistent in it's behaviour?
 
@kelunik Unless you're IE8
 
@PeeHaa For UTF-8 it's standardized.
 
@DaveRandom If you give it a Content-type header of utf-8, I can reasonably say they are.
 
maybe if kernel is too old @Gordon @JoeWatkins
 
yeah, maybe this
 
12:02 PM
@kelunik Well isn't that that the question is about?
 
@MadaraUchiha hahahahaa.. nope. there was a version of safari (or chrome? I forget which) that decided to normalize as nfc for a while
 
Come to that, and here I am definitely exposing my ignorance about front-end-y things, how do I tell the browser what charset I expect a form to be submitted in?
 
@PeeHaa Which question? Just joined here.
 
debian.. wheezy i think needed a back ports kernel for lxc
 
This is a *very* interesting question. I guess not well, none of my apps ever have done unicode normalisation on pw… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/833423382708363268
 
12:03 PM
@DaveRandom My gamble is that it would be submitted in the encoding of the page, by default.
 
@DaveRandom I'm probably in the camp of: "If your browser doesn't support UTF-8, I don't care about you as a user"
 
@DaveRandom charset attribute on the form?
 
@DaveRandom You can tell e.g. forms it
And fallsback to page
 
Is that behaviour actually specified anywhere?
 
Basically @DaveRandom imo it all boils down to !!canon utf8 to me
 
12:04 PM
It should default to the charset of the document
but nothing stops the client doing whatever the hell it wants
 
@JayBlanchard For the same reason you want to apply NFC - it's not always clear to a user that, for example, their phone's on-screen keyboard might be sending different codepoints that just happen to look the same as what they send via their laptop's keyboard. For a more visible example (and reason to apply NFC normalization) one might send ά as U+03AC while the other sends it as U+03B1 followed by U+0301. — Paul Crovella Apr 27 '16 at 20:10
 
You can only hint at what you want it to do
 
accept-charset
 
12:05 PM
@MadaraUchiha great, thanks
@PaulCrovella Right. But normalising a password does not feel like the right thing to do.
 
@DaveRandom Why not?
 
8 mins ago, by Leigh
It's not interesting at all. Password is a binary string, hash it, job done.
 
lol
just use client certs and avoid the problem
 
I fundamentally agree with this ^^^ A user should be able to use a null byte in their password if they want to.
 
@Stephen In the browser?
 
12:07 PM
yes
 
Client certs make sense only for a small number of use-cases
 
@Stephen Would love it if that was easy to do
 
@DaveRandom Passwords aren't binary by their very definition.
 
i was 75% joking @Leigh
 
@kelunik why not?
 
12:08 PM
/me ignores everything because shiny new welder came in post
 
@DaveRandom Because it's a password
 
A password is a key
 
@DaveRandom if you don't normalize the password you end up teaching users to limit the characters that they use in passwords to one that work the same for them across all devices (basically ascii). you limit their keyspace. this is bad.
 
@kelunik Uhm, characters by their very definition are represented by binary
 
It's something you type
 
12:08 PM
@PaulCrovella Indeed. But how, then, do you handle e.g. a stray LTR
Or zwnj
normalisation forms don't eliminate those
 
@Leigh No, they can also be written to a paper.
 
but to a user they may be transparent
 
require they have kinnect and motion capture interpretive dance as a password
 
@Stephen I require that they lick my ear in the pre-agreed pattern
 
@kelunik If you want to turn it into analog, sure, but we're talking about digital here. Everything is a sequence of bits - the correct sequence of bits unlocks something for you
 
12:10 PM
wat
 
@DaveRandom I'm not just talking about unicode normalization forms. give that rfc a read through - it was made for real life reasons
 
@Leigh It's not what any user cares about. They're not digital. What if your encoding changes?
 
> security at the expense of usability comes at the expense of security
 
@kelunik Then I have broken my site
And it's my job to fix it
 
my site requires a secret handshake in person in a locked vault
also cookies
if you don't give me cookies i won't let you in the vault
 
12:17 PM
it's not just about encoding. you don't need encoding to change in order for a user to put in U+03AC registering then later to log in U+03B1 followed by U+0301. the user has no idea there's a difference, or likely even that they're doing it. not to mention the wealth of whitespace codepoints available
 
Sounds like someone else's problem
 
@PaulCrovella I understand that, but specifically in the context of password the "correct" behaviour is not obvious to me. Although I will read the RFC you linked earlier.
 
Hi. I have an issue with loading CSS, images and js after URL rewriting using .htaccess was applied. Could anyone please help me fix it? Thanks
 
@Pramod <link href="foo.css"> <-- don't do this
<link href="/full/path/to/foo.css"> <-- do this instead
 
@Pramod
Have you posted any question?
 
12:25 PM
@Leigh if you teach your users that they can only rely on ascii for their passwords then you have broken your site
 
URL rewriting breaks relative paths, never use relative paths for anything, it is almost certainly not what you want.
 
@Dave . Not on the SO yet.
 
@PaulCrovella No, if you teach your users that you can only rely on ascii for their passwords it's a major win because you imply you've taught your users what ascii is.
 
@Dave. Paths to css files are css/w31.css.
 
@Pramod then they need to be /css/w31.css
With a slash at the beginning
 
12:27 PM
@Dave. I tried that too but to no luck.
 
@Pramod What's your rewrite rules look like?
 
@Pramod Imagine I have a page, /article.php?subject=bar&id=123
I use URL rewriting to turn that into /bar/123
If the page uses css/w31.css as a path, before rewriting it will get /css/w31.css but after rewriting it will get /bar/css/w31.css
 
@Pramod Is this problem on your localhost or on shared server? maybe directory access rules problems?
 
Rules are as follows.
RewriteRule ^([\w-]+)$ detailspage.php?category=$1
RewriteRule ^HTML/([\w-]+)$ detailspage.php?category=$1
RewriteRule ^PHP/([\w-]+)$ detailspage.php?category=$1
RewriteRule ^PHP/(css|js1|images)/(.*)?$ /$1/$2 [L,QSA,R=301]
 
... and here I am, looking at two tables holding admin pwds in plain text, where pwds are mostly 4-5 letters long,.. this monday couldn't get any gloomier
 
12:30 PM
@DaveRandom on localhost.
 
@Ekin Oh dear :<
 
@Ekin Gloomier? I'd find it hilarious
 
@Pramod Can you try to illustrate us directory tree of your web page and your css/images?
 
nothing really hilarious about any of this (now) 17GB codebase...
 
@KuKeC Sure.
 
12:31 PM
@Ekin wat
 
@DaveRandom sent not to harass you, but for the benefit of anyone playing along on twitter
 
@Pramod And where is the file found?
 
yes... you've read the number correct
 
@PaulCrovella yes, not interpreted as harassment :-) and thanks for the link
 
Anonymous
@Ekin how?
 
12:33 PM
@DaveRandom oh, you already covered it. didn't see that. nm.
 
@KuKeC.. CrdLabsPHP is the root folder under which folders css, images, js1 are placed.
 
@Ekin mondays are always my fav day also :)
 
end result of 5 years, min 10 developers, mostly working for $5/hr
 
@Pramod and where is located web page in which you are including css?
 
@Ekin Hopw is this even possible?
 
12:35 PM
^3 like that
 
So the directory should look like
-CrdLabsPHP
--css
--images
--js

Where is located your page?
 
@KuKeC , web page is in the rootfolder CRDLabsphp.
 
only good thing about this monday is it's mum's birthday aaand I'm gonna take her out making that an excuse to say fluck it, so, laters o/
 
So your directory looks like
-CrdLabsPHP
--css
--images
--js
--web_page.php

?
 
Exactly
@KuKeC exactly
@KuKeC. As an additional info..All the "href"in details page are href="<?php echo $category; ?>/<?php echo $new_friendly_url; ?>">. I added "/" to remove the second appearance of some value, say $category.
 
Wes
12:41 PM
mornings afternoons, actually
 
My boss just tried to get me to go to this. I basically told him to fuck off.
Although I'm tempted to go so I can laugh at one of the speakers whose job title is apparently "Head of Cloud"
6
 
!!xkcd 908
 
> for the past seven years has been focussed around driving innovation to customers through the leverage of Cloud technology and services.
Cool story bro
 
12:45 PM
you get to see hat man. i'd go.
 
> Jonathan leads my Butt business in Exponential-e bringing experience...
still funny
 
12:56 PM
Are there any other simple ways (excluding ReactPHP) to nadle simple HTTP requests with PHP using sockets ?
I've built simple HTTP server on top of socket_listen i a while (true) loop, but it's to sloow, allows me to handle only up to 30req/s
 

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