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Wes
12:58 AM
evenings
 
Wes
2:01 AM
the man in the high castle is such a great series
 
2:16 AM
I'm not sure I could stomach it at the moment.
 
Wes
just finished watching WWE? :B
 
Wes
2:38 AM
surprising that the whole traits' methods aliasing part passed. not only it's a mess to use, it's also pointless in my experience... if one needs to rename methods they probably designed traits wrong... right? cc @LeviMorrison
perhaps only the visibility
 
2:54 AM
@Wes "surprising that the whole traits' methods aliasing part passed" traits 'passed' in 2008
The RFC process passed in 2011 - wiki.php.net/rfc/voting
 
Wes
yo \o was the rfc process different?
ah, that explains it :P
damn i'm old, i thought traits were newer than 2008
 
That moment you see an interesting question and work for an hour to solve the problem, only to see the question deleted after you finally got it... /cry
 
Wes
rofl :P
what was it?
 
The user had an array and wanted to display the next array key value on each page refresh
 
Wes
sounds pretty trivial?
 
3:00 AM
@Wes old boys club rules.
 
So I had to figure out a way to send the previous key value back to the script on a page refresh (POST was out of question cuz of the refresh). Then walk through the array untill the pointer was set to the old value. Go to the next and display it
 
Wes
i want to be a kid again :(
 
Ye it sounded trivial to me at first too. Untill I tried it.. still I'm just a novice. I probably wrote a very ugly script xD
 
Wes
you probably learned something even if you couldn't post it :P
 
True. You can look at it here: pastebin.com/B7fG7J9M
 
3:04 AM
@Wes Traits are horrible, which is mostly why people suggest to not use them.
The idea they come from is not horrible but our implementation is... confused.
 
misguided?
 
Wes
@icecub here's something worth learning: you shouldn't use functions like end(), current(), key() etc. the trend indicates that in future they could be removed
 
@Wes Ah ok. Good to know. Thanks :)
 
Wes
@LeviMorrison what do you think of the aliasing/renaming part? if i've ever used it, i did it just to realize i could do it in a better way, a way that didn't involve renaming..
 
@Wes I'm a bit impressed it works though. It got so messy to look at that I lost track of what did what and just hoped for the best, lol
 
Wes
3:09 AM
:P
that's how we all do programming. and the only method that works :B
 
@Wes I've used it only for visibility modification.
 
Haha. Anyway, 4 am here.. should rly get some sleep now. Gn8
 
Wes
also i wish i could call methods directly rather than importing. i should write something :B eg
trait Foo{ function qux(){} }
class Baz{
   protected function qux(){ return Foo::qux->bindTo($this)(); }
}
 
When I actually use traits I follow a simple rule: use only non-static methods and nothing else; no constants, no properties, no static methods.
 
Wes
i don't use static methods at all :B but yeah fields in traits are something i ditch too
 
3:14 AM
:)
 
oh, and they are usually to help implement an interface.
 
Wes
:P yeah. and by the way, we should write a traits with interfaces rfc
 
I thought someone did
 
Wes
yes, but it's terribad though
 
The most basic issue is whether something using a trait should automatically implement an interface.
But the trouble with that is that traits aren't visible in the type system at all, really.
So if you use some type (which isn't actually visible) you suddenly implement an interface?
 
Wes
3:25 AM
trait Foo implements SomeInterface{}
// ^ implements SomeInterface completely or partially, must be used in a class or abstract class that implements SomeInterface

trait Foo extends SomeClass{}
// ^ must be used in a class that extends SomeClass (such that parent::calls() from within the trait can be resolved)
this is what i'd like to have :P and the combination of the two
 
In the latter why wouldn't you just use an abstract class?
 
Wes
extends X has very little uses, but for completeness...
@LeviMorrison not sure, it's just what i think it's semantically correct to have
 
Wes
3:38 AM
@LeviMorrison can you join that room?
 
Mornin
o/
 
4:04 AM
@kelunik That's true unless that PR is merged, then React's promises wouldn't need an adaptor… they'd implement the spec as well.
Clue is focusing on the fact that Amp's promises only implement the spec.
Using done() is another can of worms since React has it's own semantics for that function, including effectively calling our rethrow() function if no rejection handler is passed.
I'd consider using a function like done() as the interoperability function… but I feel like that's a compromise rather than the correct solution.
At this point I'm not sure I care… we should just go with the standards the group agrees on and just build adaptors for React (or possibly build support for React code directly into Amp).
/cc @bwoebi @rdlowrey
 
@Trowski well, that obviously is not an option…
If they anyway need to change, then we can just go as well with when().
 
@bwoebi Exactly. Any solution we could present requires change on their part, so…
 
4:25 AM
@kelunik So we just have to read the PID off the 3rd pipe? I don't think that would matter too much.
 
4:39 AM
morning room
 
5:08 AM
Mornings
 
5:48 AM
@Wes
 
Wes
@Stephen
 
@Wes what makes you think current()/end()/each() are going to go away?
 
Mornings
 
Wes
internal array pointer functions are globalish @Stephen iterators are better. recently each() was deprecated and sooner or later the others will be deprecated too
 
i get that iterators/foreach are a better option for truly iterating the whole array, but what's the new golden child to e.g. replace end(), if you just want the last value of an array?
 
Wes
5:52 AM
the problem is that ArrayIterator doesn't have an end() method
$a = new ArrayIterator($array);
$a->end();
$a->current();
but you sure can do it with seek()
 
as in, seek(-1) ?
 
Wes
dunno if that works, but don't think so
seek(count($arr) - 1)
 
So, firstly: if `-1` doesn't work, it should. Secondly, this is not exactly filling me with confidence about "we can deprecate end/etc" when http://php.net/manual/en/arrayiterator.seek.php says it's been available since php 5.0.0, but then says: "Warning
This function is currently not documented; only its argument list is available."
i mean 13 1/2 years isn't long enough to document a method?
 
Wes
evidently not :P i agree it should be documented... someone should do it...
 
indeed, -1 throws an OutOfBounds exception. $a->seek($a->count()-1); works. but thats pretty verbose
$foo = end($bar);
$a = new ArrayIterator($bar);
$a->seek($a->count()-1);
$foo = $a->current();
hey was there an rfc to deprecate each()? I can't find it
oh i see
its in the 7.2 deps
 
Wes
6:03 AM
yep
but hey, maybe php 9 :P it's not going to disappear any sooner than that
 
based on the explanation in the rfc (i have to trust the analysis that its 10x slower than foreach) i can see why each() makes sense, but does that really automatically mean end/current/key/reset will go too?
 
sorry maybe i should rephrase that. i really mean, does that mean it's inevitable they will go. I realise they won't go without an RFC
on a completely unrelated topic.. anyone know of developer version of DevOpsReactions tumblr? I've seen the most ridiculous use of eval() just recently and I need some closure.
 
it's not inevitable that they will go, no
 
Wes
it's not inevitable, but they are considered bad practice since long time, so it could actually happen
 
6:12 AM
bad practice by some subsection of the developer community, or bad practice by internals devs who actually implement the language?
 
Wes
can't speak for everybody but i'd say pretty much bad practice everywhere... the preference is for iterators now
 
it's irrelevant to speculate on either way - nothing will happen without an rfc and a patch. and even if it's accepted I wouldn't count on it 100% until it's released.
 
@Wes you love bear?
 
morning
 
Wes
6:30 AM
\o
 
hi
im going to use google cloud messaging, should i have to do for all platform like android, IOS, ...
or google do it
 
hello does anyone here using PHPExcel?
 
@Trowski They need an adapter to do their form of async using then chaining.
@Trowski In that case the "standards" are worth nothing and no standard.
@Trowski @bwoebi The problem is not that a change will happen, it's that React doesn't benefit from it.
It's pulling in a new conceptual / composer dependency while it currently has none.
But just ping me once you're here, so we can have a discussion. @Trowski
 
6:47 AM
Today, R11's thoughts and prayers go to Sweden!!1
10
 
Wes
lol
 
@Trowski That's indeed another possible way we talked about yesterday, just baking in support for Amp in React and React in Amp and we're fine in 99% of all use cases.
 
Hi there, anyone know how to fix this? jsfiddle.net/erikasaves/8p1weyud/2 it's work normal but if you write example : admin/admin sometimes autocomplete appear with yellow background and when your mouse focus to field, it's make icon (user) gone. sry for bad english
* it's only chrome, firefox working well
 
7:55 AM
moin
 
I just saw the greatest typo for "uploading": ulpadonig. I want to use it for the name of an async file upload library.
 
Morning
 
o/
 
8:13 AM
\o
 
most mentioned books on SO, says 40M questions and answers were analyzed
 
@Ekin Working Effectively with Legacy code is a great book.
 
is it a list of cocktail recipes?
 
^ I was wondering that as well
By the title it sounds like something I better read
 
8:20 AM
@Ekin It offers practical methods for dealing with legacy and getting tests in place
 
\o moin Joe
 
I still use it as reference from time to time.
 
omin ekin
 
The languages used are C++ and Java
 
I see
 
8:21 AM
Also, Morning 😃
 
I'll pretend you didn't say java first thing on a monday morning ...
 
heh
 
he was talking about coffee, it's okay
 
yes coffee, acceptable
 
@JoeWatkins You haven't drunk your java yet?
 
8:22 AM
I'm an Englishman, I couldn't ... got t tho
 
He wants the T
 
@MarkR how did it go ?
the sweeden thing is both funny, and frightening ...
mostly frightening
 
> This whole mess started out as an amusing soap opera, and is turning into a horror show.
 
agreed ^
 
8:25 AM
yeah, I was just saying to a colleague: if this was a comedy movie, it would be hilarious. But this is real unfortunately.
 
(what's the matter with sweden?)
 
absolutely nothing
 
/me Trucy Mc OutOfTheLoopFace
 
@Gordon I got a chuckle from your message, but it doesn't need to be pinned here.
 
trump made up some terrorist attack in sweeden based on a fox news report @Trucy
 
8:28 AM
thank you
 
\o
 
what the fuck is wrong with that guy
 
Attempted deliberate diversion of attention while the us gov do more sneaky things behind the scenes, or just winging it badly
 
Then "Je suis Sweden" I think
@Sean Everybody knows that the govt is doing sneaky things
 
8:33 AM
@Trucy So many things. Soooo many things. We can't even begin to list them all.
 
@Trucy easy, 3 words ... narcissistic delusional megalomaniac
 
Good thing we don't have this kind here… at least, I think
 
I swear, I just want one fucking day without hearing that our president nearly started WWIII.
Just one day!
 
Honestly we're thinking about moving to another country with my gf if thigs go fubar
 
Feels like having one anywhere in the world is more than enough
 
8:35 AM
@Sherif on sundays? Does he make statements on sundays?
@Ekin yeah but some zones are safer than others…
 
@Trucy Yes! This guy doesn't even need to get in front of a microphone to piss someone off. Have you seen his twitter feed?
 
If our next president bans same sex marriage, I think we'll definitely change countries
 
He nearly started a war with China with a tweet.
 
@Sherif oh right.
(even though we have PACS, but it's weaker than a marriage)
(TIL PACS was created to give a legal existance to same-sex couples in 1999)
 
he's very broken ... but he communicates with an electorate that is at least as broken, and at least as ignorant ... it is not apparent to that electorate that he keeps making huge mistakes ... they still think he's "getting shit done" ...
 
8:39 AM
@JoeWatkins I wouldn't buy into that too much. Half the people that voted for him are shit scared of what he's done in the last 30 days.
 
@JoeWatkins have you searched "voted for you" on Twitter? There're some huge regrets
 
well I saw some interviews with people that voted for him ... they are still on his side, willing to ignore outright lies
 
Sure, but the same could be said about half this country.
People are used to being lied to. That's not the issue. The issue is he's not accomplishing anything!
 
Anonymous
mornin
 
In 30 days all he's managed to do is piss off nearly every one of America's allies, create enemies in his own party, and waste tax payer money.
 
8:41 AM
a man that will stand in front of television cameras and say it was sunny when it was raining seems to be obviously dangerous
 
I agree. The guy lives in his own universe. What can I say.
Either he gets impeached or someone assassinates him. Those are the only two logical outcomes for this guy down this trajectory.
 
mornringg
 
yohaa
 
@JoeWatkins Yes, there are stupid people out there. Like we didn't already know that :p
 
8:44 AM
@JoeWatkins And then they complain that people treat trump supporters like retarded second graders
 
Anonymous
moin paa
 
/me is afk, walking dogs
 
You just have to keep in mind he only got like 45% of the vote and half those people only voted for him because they didn't like Hillary. His approval ratings are down in the toilet. He has the lowest approval ratings of any US president in history in his first 30 days.
 
@JoeWatkins how many dogs
 
I expect ~38% of the population to be dumb enough to believe this guy. That's a pretty normal gaussian curve.
 
8:50 AM
@Sherif Don't forget that people get manipulated
 
@Trucy It speaks to the same root problem.
 
@Sherif But he has the most support since Reagan, clearly.
Where are you getting your fake news from?
 
heh
It was entertaining at first to watch him make a fool of himself, but now it's just sad.
 
28 mins ago, by Madara Uchiha
> This whole mess started out as an amusing soap opera, and is turning into a horror show.
 
morning
 
8:54 AM
 
These are sad times for America man :/
He's turned us into the laughing stock of the world.
 
if you think the world didn't laugh at america before trump.. i um.. i have some bad news for you.
3
 
Anonymous
heh
 
"Laugh at America" and "Be made the laughing stock of the world" are very different things.
 
for a lot of things, its just laughing harder.
political system. metric system. health care system. banking system.
 
8:58 AM
umm... @bwoebi ping
 
america seems uniquely capable of trying to "solve" a problem, fucking it up marvellously, and then just claiming the concept is a) too hard or b) not worth solving, because their single attempt is not a roaring success
 
And yet it's the world super power.
 
so is russia and so is china.
big countries with lots of money spent on big guns
and not so much worrying about their own people
 
I mean, you just named every developed country in the world so... that's not saying much.
 
huh
 
Anonymous
9:01 AM
wat
 
Since when do governments not fuck things up?
 
most governments don't fuck things up to the extent the US government does
so, case in point:
 
Sure, the bigger the government the more the opportunity to fuck up.
 
us change of party in power
fuck obama care, fuck immigrants, fuck everyone.
australian change of party in power
 
Welcome to reality. Men lust over power.
Shocker.
 
9:03 AM
excuse me, but your universal health care will now incur a $5 fee for each visit. oh and that project to deliver broadband to every person in the country, won't be all fibre now, some of it will be using copper still.
notice a different
or a difference
your response is pretty typical of americans when confronted with this idea that its not a worldwide thing for government/political parties to be totally and completely self serving and utterly incompetent at the job they're supposed to be doing
yeah, politicians are often somewhat self serving, but the system in general works for the benefit of the country.
in america any benefits for regular citizens seems to be in spite of the people in office.
 
who cares, america first
 
You seem to be drawing some pretty baseless conclusions here. Remember, it was America that helped Europe rebuild after WWII, while other European governments stole other country's gold supplies, the Red army raped over 5 million women, and some refused to participate in alliances. So please don't pretend that any one government is less self-serving than another.
 
Wes
hodor \o
 
All governments suck man. This is life. But I'm not a politician so I don't pretend to purport one government is superior to another.
People should just focus on treating others humanly and this world would be a much better place.
 
@Wes o/
 
9:10 AM
i never said anything about how governments interact with each other. i was talking about how governments/politicians treat their own countrymen.
 
Do you run try_files before passing through to fpm from nginx?
 
@Stephen Sure, when you contrast the worst of American government to the best of Australian government you've made an excellent fallacious straw man argument. What's your point?
Let's compare American government to Nazi Germany while we're at it. I'm sure that will be a winnable argument.
 
you missed my point
 
No, I got your point.
 
i was pointing out the unpopular "bad" things that a conservative "right wing" government has done
 
9:12 AM
I just don't think it's anything more than obvious banter. Who cares? It's politics.
 
the things i referenced from the australian government weren't "the best"
the $5 charge for doctors visits was a HUGE deal after the election
 
You're going to make a great politician some day. Arguing endless about nothing :)
 
moenrin
 
\\o
 
sure, 'nothing'.
enjoy the next 4 years.
 
Anonymous
9:14 AM
:)
 
That's just such a trolly statement. You think my life is going to be deeply effected in the next 4 years because there's one more stupid leader in power?
 
Oh god it's Jay ):
 
@Stephen stop your rambling. I can't even understand what you are whining about.
 
Anonymous
@Sean hooiiiii o/
 
Oh good it's Jay :)*
 
Anonymous
9:16 AM
:P
 
sup Jay
 
!!version
 
o// Jay
 
Anonymous
wasop
 
9:17 AM
trying to get to platinum... in OW
 
How long till season end?
Stuck at the top of plat trying to get to diamond but I haven't played in like 2 weeks
 
24th or something like that
 
So I'm gonna suck hard
 
my current SR is like 2294 after a horrible losing streak from 2410
 
Sean#2321 If anyone wants to beat up some nerds virtually sometime.
Ouch :<
 
9:20 AM
pharah main huh :>
 
@Izopi4a 2
 
nice
 
@Saitama Yeah, loving her atm and I'm one of the DPS roles in the group I play with
 
3 messages moved to Trash
 
9:22 AM
Otherwise, Mei/Junk for Def, Zenny/Ana for Sup, Rein/Road for tank
 
Hanzo/Bastion for def, Lucio/Mercy for heal and D.Va for tank...
 
Love a good bastion. A lot of players underestimate the power of a well placed attack bast :P
I've heard he got buffed but I haven't played since
 
@Jeeves Oh, nice that we also can see aliases that are currently mapped
 
@Sean yep he got buffed on the ptr
I really like to be a bastion on anubis on the first point if we have a good rein
 
Anonymous
!!voting list_reference_assignment
 
9:24 AM
Pls
 
Anonymous
I don't see any command for !!voting though?
 
!!command map voting RFC.php Voting
 
Command 'voting' is now mapped to RFC.PHP # Voting
• list() Reference Assignments - Yes (11: 68%), No (5: 31%) (https://wiki.php.net/rfc/list_reference_assignment#doodle__form__list_reference_assignments)
‌ ◦ Yes: bishop, fmk, galvao, kguest, leigh, mariano, pollita, sammyk, stas, svpernova09, zeev
‌ ◦ No: daverandom, hywan, joey, levim, ocramius
 
Anonymous
:D
 
Anonymous
awesome @Sean
 
9:26 AM
y nobody plays in xbox?
all of my friends play in PC... :<
 
@JayIsTooCommon :D Thanks. Props to @Dave for the formatting though!
A lot of profanity went into getting that right
 
mornin
I've got a question
What does it mean that in PHP Objects are CallByValue by default which is opposite from most programming languages and catches most programmers off-guars?? Taken from pixelcrayons.com/blog/web/php-vs-python-vs-ruby-comparison but don't know the meaning of CalByValue
 
9:42 AM
@brzuchal That article doesn't contain the phrase "CallByValue"
 
because it's in graphic
PHP vs Python vs Ruby: Cons or Disadvantages
 
Call by value is the opposite of call by reference.
 
@brzuchal wat
 
If means that if I do this:
 
that's pass-by-value
they mixed up terms, and facts
 
9:45 AM
Ah okay
 
Wes
@MadaraUchiha that
 
Here is used term Call by value cs-fundamentals.com/tech-interview/c/…
 
objects are not pass-by-value
nobody calls it that anymore
 
@brzuchal PHP's behavior with passed objects isn't different from JavaScript or Java or any other language I'm aware of.
So that article is wrong.
 
Wes
9:47 AM
that article smells poo
:B
 
@Wes Well yes. If you call ruby elegant...
I tend to agree
 
the full name is "call time pass-by-whatever"
but that's a mouthful, so we use pass-by-whatever as shorthand ... I've never heard anyone use call-by-whatever ... sounds and feels wrong to me
 
What do you think about Plugin Interface as a package dependency for Jeeves, as an aid for plugins to be bundled separately /cc @DaveRandom @PeeHaa
 
@Sean As a separate dependency?
 
Thanks, guys, I've vrote a comment to the author to fix this.
 
9:50 AM
@PeeHaa Yeah.
 
@brzuchal Does it read "you article is bad and you should feel bad, could you please remove it all"?
 
Sirius question, this hash super collision CERN PHP stuff, why nikic.github.io/2011/12/28/Supercolliding-a-PHP-array.html still takes a lot of time in PHP5.3+ ?
 
@Sean For some reason having it as a separate dep for jeeves feels weird
@DejanMarjanovic Because the fix was a "workaround"?
 
@PeeHaa I kind of agree, but I wouldn't really know another way. When I think of other working examples of that.. pattern(?) I think of things like PSR interfaces, and they tend to work
 
I remember DaveRandom mentioning it might be a good idea to put (I think non-built in) plugins into their own repos / also having their own process spaces
 
9:55 AM
@Sean Yeah trying to make a point using psr doesn't work really well with me
I see what you are saying though :)
 
@PeeHaa Hahah :P
 
@Ekin Yeah
 
@PeeHaa Really? Oh I get it now, we just limited the max_input_vars and code is a bit faster but the issue is still there?
 
@PeeHaa No, I wouldn't write like that :)
 
@DejanMarjanovic Basically we "prevent" collisions using the max input vars yes
@Ekin Which kinda means that for 3rd party packages / plugins they will need access to the interface somehow
@brzuchal ;-)
 
9:57 AM
Right
 
@PeeHaa So, for example, if limit is 1000, and I increase it to 8000, what happens?
I mean, who measured that 1000 is fine :-)
 
Wes
 
What're the alternatives? Passing through callbacks on plugin registration?
 
posted on February 20, 2017

New Cyanide and Happiness Comic

 
@Wes PHP
 
10:14 AM
@DejanMarjanovic iirc the number is just based on the fact that is most sane applications it should be more than enough
If yu change it to 8000 is just means that
 
@PeeHaa Of course, no argue about that
 
That many collisions can occur
 
Yes, and it's significantly slower than 1000
 
Yes
 
Tested(tm)
Thank you Sir
Come again!
 
10:16 AM
yw milos :P
 
10:54 AM
TEST JEEVES
 
Anonymous
yes yes
 
oh good, it's only coming once a week now
 
TIL Joe runs tests on a weekly basis
Come on Joe, you should test your code after each modification
 
Goddamnit this weather sucks
 
nobody likes a smart arse
 
10:56 AM
Please just go to the UK where you belong
 
we got spring like weather for some reason @PeeHaa
something to do with wind, and the moon
 
:|
That's not fair at all
 
fairt: fair, but also a fart
 
where are you anyway @PeeHaa ?
 

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