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12:00 AM
We all dont.
My EBC picture is evidence of thst
Also, yeesh, scotch :-/
 
Wes
!!urban ebc
 
[ EBC ] Refers to the eastern portion of a small town on Van Isle. Stands for East Black Creek, or the region of Black Creek on the eastern side of the highway. An excellent place to drink a couple [OE]s. Can also be used to refer to the gang of creekers who live there. Natural enemies include, West Side Creekers, The ORC (oyster river crew), Merville, [LG]s and fuckin' Townies.
 
Everest base camp
 
Wes
didn't go there, what's the altitude?
5000km lol, that's proper high
higher than @PeeHaa
 
Around that yeah
 
Wes
12:06 AM
*5000m
(clearly)
 
Not so bad after you spend a day in it
TBH I would recommend anyone do the Everest Base Camp trip. Even if you don't know if you like trekking or not. It's a great intro
 
Wes
i think i would die after walking like 50 meters :B
 
heh, I am sue you'd be fine. I have a video here
 
Wes
too old for cold weather
eheh that reminds me something
 
@DaveRandom ping
 
Wes
12:17 AM
nicest place i've been is new zealand though @Fabor it feels like being on another, more beautiful planet. been there?
 
Nope, but hopefully next year
I'd like to do a lot more hiking
 
Wes
i'd like to travel again :B i didn't travel at all in years
 
So go for it :P
 
Wes
maybe south america :B
 
Sure, SA is nice. Just be careful of the roads :P
The people are so small too :P
 
Wes
12:24 AM
not spider infested jungles, andes :B
lol, i'm small too
 
Ekn
here I was thinkin everyone's mind is set to EU :p
 
We rarely explore our backyard @Ekn :)
 
Wes
programmer's life :B
 
Ekn
I guess that applies to the majority anyways
sudamerica is peaceful, mostly. has it's own terribads and bads.
 
morning
 
12:26 AM
Western side is a bit more peaceful I think
 
Ekn
o/
 
Morning bwoebi
Saying that I didn't visit the eastern side. Can't say it's high on my list of visits
@bwoebi Got any opensource projects using Aerys available?
 
@Fabor What are you fiddling with? github.com/kelunik/demo-chat ?
 
Learning mostly, examples work best for me. I want to make it so I can create new rooms on the go
 
@Fabor you already are through the tutorial in docs?
 
12:28 AM
Aye
 
Wes
i want to have a trip in south america a-la top gear
 
But I don't understand much about async programming/event based stuff I am afraid
 
Wes
not joking. need to find out a couple of crazies to join me
 
@Wes get started then :P
 
Wes
nobody is crazy enough
 
12:30 AM
Sure they are, coax them. Or find them
 
Wes
they are all like they are going to be robbed or something
 
Part of the experience
 
Wes
ahah
@Ekn ever watched top gear bolivia special?
 
Bolivia was lovely. Salar De Ayuni pic
 
@Fabor well, that example is a bad one actually… needs to use redis pub/sub to be useful… … Ah the README says it anyway
 
Ekn
12:32 AM
nope, sounds like I should
 
Wes
best top gear episode ever :B
 
Ekn
s/Ayuni/Uyuni :p
 
@bwoebi Well, hoping to find more examples. maybe the chatroom you guys used to have
Danke
 
@Fabor Well, that chat is here: github.com/kelunik/chat-main
 
Manly pose. I really did like Bolivia
2
 
12:36 AM
@Fabor but apart from that I'm not aware of other real Aerys examples
@Fabor yeah, we really need good Amp docs too…
 
Wes
@Fabor pahaha indiana fabor
 
Awesome thanks @bwoebi
I think the 2 day trip was like $50 too
It gets cold at night though :P
 
Ekn
the route from buenos aires till salar de uyuni is really an amazing one
a long trip but worth it.
 
If we are really being honest the number one reason to go to Bolivia is Pizza Cono
link fail. Edited
 
Wes
12:40 AM
that's... italian
 
Ekn
ha, you have them in BA also
everything italian and spanish can be found in BA
 
Maybe BA is worth revisiting then
 
Ekn
and after a while... you realize that's all you got.
 
There was a really wide road in BA. I remember that much.
 
Ekn
Every place either has sushi, pasta, pizza, chicken or panchos.
 
12:41 AM
Making me hungry
 
I got a network question.
how does a random router on the internet know where an IP should be routed?
 
$5 @DaveRandom knows the answer
 
Ekn
according to some sorta routing table it has defined?
 
Al-pack-a my bags and head back to Peru.
 
@Ekn how does it define this routing table?
 
Wes
12:46 AM
i just remembered i made the cover of a book that is about italians from my very village emigrated to uruguay
 
(it's an honest question.)
 
Ekn
!!? routing table
 
Search for "routing table" (https://www.google.com/search?q=routing+table&lr=lang_en)
• Routing table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia - In computer networking a routing table, or routing information base (RIB), is a data table stored… (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Routing_table)
• What is routing table? - Definition from WhatIs.c… - A routing table is a set of rules, often viewed in table format, that is used to determine where d… (http://searchnetworking.techtarget.com/definition/routing-table)
 
Ekn
the wiki one is what I meant
 
Wes
i should read it :B
 
12:47 AM
@FlorianMargaine BGP.
 
@Ekn I know what a routing table is. The problem is, how do you define the list of routes in this routing table?
@bwoebi yes, the routing table is defined "thanks to BGP"
which is the missing thing I'm trying to understand
what does BGP do?
 
@FlorianMargaine propagating routing information/changes basically.
 
@bwoebi how?
 
And routing changes are primarily done directly by humans.
 
Ekn
isn't it this sorta thing
 
12:50 AM
@FlorianMargaine direct communication to the next server basically. Thus you configure something like a local connection via DHCP [not actually I believe, but I do not know the exact details] and then exchange BGP over TCP to that server
 
@Ekn this thing is updated thanks to the BGP protocol
@bwoebi what is "the next server"?
a random router you choose on the internet?
 
@FlorianMargaine the servers at other ISPs you're physically connected to
 
so you can configure your home router to send BGP requests to every ISP server?
what does "physically connected to" mean there?
 
@FlorianMargaine If it isn't prevented, technically yes… but obviously these servers are hidden behind a VLAN only reachable from other ISPs
 
@bwoebi so I, as a random guy, can't advertise my own IP I bought from ARIN?
 
12:56 AM
@FlorianMargaine right
you'll have to ask your ISP to add an entry for you
 
@FlorianMargaine the routers of the ISPs are directly/physically connected by cable/fiber without other immediates except for repeaters
 
Time to find the route to bed, Bonne nuit
 
@FlorianMargaine BGP is a trust based network and it would be very bad if everyone could add routes there … after all you do not want to have your network traffic read by random criminals
It's already big enough of a problem when state-based agencies redirect traffic … imagine everyone could.
 
@bwoebi yes, that's why I thought I didn't understand -- I was just missing the "only ISPs can add BGP entries"
 
1:01 AM
@FlorianMargaine which is why it's also so bad when ISPs get hacked… they now could read worldwide traffic…
 
1:52 AM
Hey guys, I need a bit of advise. I'm working on a chatsystem that is expected to have a reasonably heavy load (think about 500 to 1000 ppl online at the same time). That's why I'm using a websocket for this.

Now my country has a law that dictates that chatsystems must keep logs of all the messages for at least 2 years. Saving all the messages directly to a MySQL database is out of the question. The server wouldn't be able handle that many queries per second. It would also completely nullify the idea of using a websocket.
 
Wes
mysql will be way faster than saving to xml files
especially if you use myisam, which you could use
 
Ye I thought so myself as well, but since I hardly ever work with file operations I had no idea how much server resources it would take. So I guess the memcache solution is the way to go?
 
Wes
not even needed imho
 
Are you sure? I once read somewhere that even dedicated mysql servers can only handle about 250 queries per second. On busy chatserver it can easily become 2000 messages per second or more
 
Wes
you could use memcache to delay in an interval the saves, but imho it won't be even needed. 2000 inserts per second isn't much really if you have a decent machine, imho
try it out, make a myisam table message, room, timestamp without indexes and check how many messages can insert in a given period of time
 
2:05 AM
Ye exactly my idea. It'll be easy to just add a thousend bots spamming messages to test the performance. Thanks a lot for your help @Wes :)
 
Wes
yw, also wait for other responses
 
I will
 
Wes
remember, no locks, no indexes, blob, not text, for the message body
 
Alright
 
@icecub mysql should be able to handle tens of thousands of inserts per second easily
@icecub for extreme cases you can temporarily buffer messages in your application and write bulk inserts like every 100 ms to the db
 
2:16 AM
@bwoebi Really? Hmm, nah in that case I should be fine inserting directly. I'm not expecting half the world to use it
 
@icecub If you meant 250 k queries per second, I'm believing you … 250 q/sec is not believable
 
@bwoebi It's just what I remember reading a few years ago. I might have missread it or it was a very unreliable source. I don't know. Either way I'm glad I asked here
 
@icecub but that's only for small, non-locked inserts with only a primary AI key, and nothing more… basically what a chat is.
@icecub what really slows down things is when you intermittently read or delete from that table… but seems to be mainly insert-only, so not an issue
 
@bwoebi Ye that's all what I need. There's no need to read the data back unless there's a very good reason to retrieve the logs
 
@icecub what are you using as websocket server?
 
2:22 AM
in general terms, what are the differences between a "hook" and an observer-pattern "event"?
 
@bsapaka in general terms there's no real difference, it's just another name for it
 
@bwoebi This one: code.google.com/archive/p/php-websocket-server Been using it for several projects and it's proven reliable so far
 
@icecub but probably not for up to 2k msg/s which each need to be broadcasted to hundreds or thousands clients simultaneously?
 
Wes
!!should i get a coffee or go to sleep
 
You should get a coffee.
 
Wes
2:25 AM
don't tell me what to do, @Jeeves :o
 
@bwoebi It does actually. I've tested it in the past and if I remember correctly even a couple of members here tested it and were impressed by its performance
 
@Wes You asked him and he gave you the correct answer
 
Wes
what if i'm too tired to go make myself a coffee
 
@Wes Its called senseo over here. All you have to do is press a button xD
 
@icecub uh… for 2k/s inbound messages no problem… but how many outbound messages do you expect? 100k/s? 500k/s?
 
Wes
2:28 AM
that's blasphemy for italians @icecub
 
@Wes if you're not too tired to find your way to bed, you aren't either to make coffee
 
@bwoebi Right.. I forgot it has to send the messages to all the clients as well.. that would be max 1k * 1k which would be 1m... damn
 
Wes
bed is like 50cm away from me :B, kitchen like 20 full meters
 
@bwoebi So what would you suggest? Use Node.JS instead of PHP? Or isn't that going to solve the problem either?
 
@icecub with node you're probably even slower
@icecub If you really have that much traffic, you're probably best off with redis
@icecub github.com/amphp/aerys is my favorite project for such requirements
 
2:34 AM
@bwoebi I'll have a look at that. Currently the statistics of our website is: Saturday 20 August 2016 | 760694 members | Online: 162
And that's because it's 4:30 am here xD
 
Wes
you are such a spammer @bwoebi :D
 
@icecub how many are online at day?
 
Wes
my trip to kitchen didn't go well. i took beer instead
 
@bwoebi It depends. Most of the time we don't see more than 500, but in rare cases it goes up to a 1000
 
@icecub how do you even get to 2k msgs sec when there are max 1000 people?
 
2:38 AM
Well say there are about 1000 ppl in all the chatrooms actively chatting (we have a timeout that removes inactive members). Those ppl are used to type fast. They easily spam more than 1 message per second. Even if it's only a smiley or something
 
@icecub but not all simultaneously? but well, you need to care for peaks
Ideally you can handle at least the double of your normal peak load for exceptional cases
 
@bwoebi Ye you're right. I guess I'm being a bit to carefull and expect a lot more data going around than actually really is happening
 
@icecub but still, you probably need to be able to account for 100k outbound messages per second
I'd be very surprised if a single PHP process could handle that.
 
@bwoebi You're right. I'm gonna have a look at that project you've given and see what I can do with that
@bwoebi Well last case scenario would be to just add more servers either linked together or 1 server per chatroom
 
@icecub one server per chatroom can work (if the chatrooms are small enough)
but this means that you have to spawn servers dynamically and distribute your load yourself
 
2:45 AM
@bwoebi They are. Rooms don't allow for more than 75 members at once. New chatters are put "on hold" untill another one leaves after that
 
@icecub more servers linked together - yeah, but then you still need things like redis to communicate.
 
@bwoebi I'm looking at their website now
 
@icecub (I still need to do a lot of docs for the other repositories, but Aerys docs are fairly complete)
 
@bwoebi Awesome. You've given me a lot of insight in this. I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. I'll definitely dive into it
 
best datepicker with easy ui for erp use quick entry shortcuts should be easy to use
angularjs / bootstrap / jquery
 
3:05 AM
morning
 
Alright. Time for me to go to bed. Agains thanks a lot @bwoebi and @Wes for all the help and information. I've bookmarked your project. So far I'm quite impressed by it and will learn more about tomorrow. Gn8 guys
 
 
1 hour later…
5:16 AM
good morning
 
6:13 AM
posted on August 20, 2016

New Cyanide and Happiness Comic

 
 
1 hour later…
7:30 AM
morninings
 
wow… the application is in gc for 99% of its runtime…
 
The GC in PHP could do with some love....
 
@Danack As long as it's not a bottleneck, all fine…
 
If we could persuade any of the Java people who have made huge improvement to their GC come and give a hand, I'm pretty sure a lot of improvements could be achieved.
 
7:48 AM
oh, root buffer is full
 
I read that as "roof butter" several times
moin
 
I have used the php script for verify emails from github github.com/hbattat/… .This code works but I want to check 100 emails at the same time.I have to check all email addresses in array instead of check email address one by one.So i have added one extra email in it and check 2 email addresses at the same time but code is assuming my second email as port no.So please can you tell me the solution of this how we can check 100 emails at the same time in an array.
$ve=array();
$ve = new VE\VerifyEmail('dave@gmail.com', 'dave@gmail.com','dave1@hmgamerica.com','dave1@hmgamerica.com');
 
That script is flawed in the way it verifies that the mailbox exists anyway
RCPT TO: acceptance is not reliable test in any way
If you want to verify an email address, send it a mail, and have someone click on a link in the mail
There's a reason that this is what you have to do for every service you sign up to that wants you to verify your email address...
 
what is the solution for it.
 
@DaveRandom well that and they want to know it's your email address, which is a different question
 
7:57 AM
true, I suppose, but I'd counter that you should not be sending emails to people who haven't asked you to do so anyway
2 mins ago, by DaveRandom
If you want to verify an email address, send it a mail, and have someone click on a link in the mail
 
my code works if i mention only $ve = new VE\VerifyEmail('dave@hmgamerica.com', 'dave@hmgamerica.com');
//print_r($ve);
// for ($x = 1; $x <= 2; $x++)
// {
//echo "hi";
var_dump($ve->verify());

echo '<pre>';print_r($ve->get_debug()); then it works and it tells that it is vinvalid or valid email
I have already verify email address by this code.But this code is verify email one by one .i want to verify 5 or 10 emails at the same time.So i put this $ve variable an array but this code used my third email id as a port no.
 
@babi you almost certainly want to put things in a queue to be processed rather than actually processing them in a web request. I don't have a good resource for queues, but I do recommend using supervisord.org to run them.
 
@DaveRandom there are cases where it's appropriate to just validate email addresses (typically per syntax + some additional constraints), or to send emails to people that didn't give their addresses to you directly.. I've dealt with both and they weren't in situations that were spam or otherwise annoying or unethical
 
I posted a question here stackoverflow.com/questions/39051640/… please do help me...
 
@PaulCrovella I'll take your word for it. What I am 100% certain of is that checking whether the MX gives you a 250 response to RCPT TO is about as reliable as my FOSS contribution patterns.
 
8:09 AM
whut… I've just increased GC buffer to 1M entries, still full…
 
what application is this?
 
Aerys. Websockets. Benching.
 
hello
 
and the GC buffer is things that cannot be GC'd yet or things that are waiting to be free'd?
 
@jezz fyi - you're free to ask questions, and other people are free to not want to answer your question....
 
8:11 AM
@DaveRandom yes
 
That's not a yes/no question :-P
which option?
 
@DaveRandom oh totally. the technical side of it is a mess, and it's impossible to answer the question "will a future email reach its intended recipient". I've just seen way too many assumptions and generalization around the applicability of email validation and verification, and it annoys me.
 
@DaveRandom well, both :-P
 
Right so it's basically just "all objects"?
You probably have a $this leak in a closure somewhere (or more than one) that's stopping stuff from getting collected
or is it just that GC is never running?
 
@DaveRandom well, all objects whose refcount has been decremented at least once
 
8:12 AM
oic
 
@DaveRandom gc is running. Zero objects are freed.
 
php developers in particular presume that the only two reasons you'd ever have someones email address are either because they're signing up for your site/newsletter, or because you want to spam them.. and it's crap.
 
@bwoebi closures are what usually get me here (in C#, anyway)
 
@DaveRandom In C# you don't have a cycle collector (AFAIK?)
 
@bwoebi it's mark-and-sweep with cycle handling afaik
 
8:16 AM
ah… must be confusing with C++ then
 
that... doesn't have a GC?
@PaulCrovella no I totally get that there are other reasons to be sending people mail, however I do think there's a fairly clear black/white separation between solicited and unsolicited mail. I also accept that there is such a thing as solicited mail to people who did not directly give you their address, however in those cases I would treat it as syntax, possibly domain verification then fire-and-forget.
Although if you can give me a concrete example of where that does not apply I will change my view. I usually change at least one view per day.
 
off-topic - can anyone recommend a good audio transmitter + microphone for using in talks?
The ones on ebay/amazon seem to be either $15 or >$150
 
what, like a radio mic that you can connect up to an existing PA?
 
@Danack given the amount of speakers in here I consider that on-topic ;)
but most confs give you that, so no need to buy one. at least I never needed one
 
@DaveRandom The first step for me is just something so I can record the talks at my local user group, so the audio just needs to go to a recording device, which would almost certainly be the video camera.
I will consider acquiring a PA at some point....we've had some meetups in places where the acoustics are shit, and so some amplification would be useful.
@Gordon it's for my local user group. I also want to practice with it.
 
8:24 AM
@DaveRandom The latter is basically what we had, and that was more or less how we dealt with them. But it did mean we had to do a level of validation without being able to send verification emails.
(If you're curious, one example is authors submitting their email along with the article they've written to a publisher. It all went through many people and vendors, editors and typesetters and such, as well as revisions; before getting to us for final sanity check and production, which included emailing the authors that their work was up.)
 
@Danack well not even that, necessarily. A cheap dictaphone might do the job, you could always mux the video and audio after (wouldn't be too big a job, just need to sync it at start then recode). I say this because I would expect the cheap radio mics to be shite.
but cheap dictaphones with handsfree are probably better
 
Yeah - the £10 ones will be awful.....but spending £40 to save having to edit hours of video seems a reasonable thing to do.
 
Well it's not editing hours of video though, that's the thing. It's just lining them up at start and leaving the computer alone to mux them into one stream. But yeh I agree that if you can find something decent + reasonable price it's preferable
 
@DaveRandom root buffer is full of arrays
 
@bwoebi it's also full of aerys
also, wut?
 
8:30 AM
… of size 2
 
@Danack I have a friend who is likely to have useful opinions on this (audio engineer), what's your budget? I can ask him for a recommendation if you like
@bwoebi lolwut
 
@DaveRandom containing an object and an integer
 
@DaveRandom I think can you ask "Are there any microphones + audio transmitters that are worth buying for under £100? Or are they all rubbish?"
 
@bwoebi can you get the object class? (I'd assume they are all the same)
 
@DaveRandom stdClass
 
8:33 AM
My local usergroup can probably afford to buy this - but I don't want to recommend buying stuff that is going to be a waste of time.
Though as the videos that have been recorded 6 months ago still haven't been processed.....I might just start looking after this myself.
Also, I might want to acquire the equipment myself, for various reasons.
 
@Danack sent him an FB message, will let you know when I hear back
 
ta
 
@bwoebi ugh
can you see what props they have? that should be a clue
 
(gdb) p (char*)$25.arData[0]->key->val
$27 = 0x7ffff56c0290 "remaining"
(gdb) p (char*)$25.arData[1]->key->val
$28 = 0x7ffff568b188 "results"
(gdb) p (char*)$25.arData[3]->key->val
$29 = 0x7ffff3418070 "opcode"
(gdb) p (char*)$25.arData[2]->key->val
$30 = 0x7ffff56c02f0 "promisor"
^ I've just looked myself right now
 
ahh, so looks like an amp issue rather than an aerys issue
 
8:37 AM
the one with opcode is weird
 
Is there a good reason to not just use an assoc array for those structs anyway? reference semantics?
 
ah
I think I now know where it comes from
from amp combinators … but the opcode is still weird
oh, no opcode there, only 3 elements
 
well that's from the websocket frame parser I guess?
 
@DaveRandom yes
that confused me right now
so, an array of a promise from Amp\all() and an integer… huh?
ah
 
You got any calls to send() with an array of client IDs in you app logic?
don't seem to be many all() calls in aerys in general
 
8:45 AM
@DaveRandom yes…
[$struct, $key] in all()
 
/me is out for a bit, ttyl
 
I see why… for every connected client a promise is created and when() is called upon it…
so… let's do a thousand clients each a hundred broadcasts… boom… 100 M messages sent
good, that was not intended. Anyway, I probably should make all() lazy so that it only calls when() on the promises when somebody is interested in them… (i.e. calls when() on the promise returned by all())
But this gcs buffer is too small
 
9:15 AM
Interesting fact. 1 in 9 questions on SO tagged contain the phrase "not working"... and discuss!
 
Mornding
 
ThW
Morning
 
9:43 AM
oh wow, it is morning
 
Anyone else having issues logging in to yahoo?
 
@Fabor yahoo isn't a thing anymore. forget about it.
 
nm, logged in.
@bwoebi It is for Flickr :P
 
meeh
 
flickr died when yahoo bought it
 
9:47 AM
Yahoo was the biggest powder keg of engineering culture I ever worked at.
 
What other choice do we have for storing higher qualities of our photos though?
 
@Fabor None really.
Nobody cares about the high resolution image storage anymore.
 
how much higher quality?
 
It's an antiquated problem.
 
Solved now because?
 
9:50 AM
Because it's not seen as the problem that it once was.
 
People stopped wanting to store their good photos online?
 
There are very few people who care about sharing the high resolution copies of their photos online. Specifically a minority of users that are into digital photography.
 
@PaulCrovella Not sure tbh. Better than most is all I know. I was just looking for somewhere other than FB where I can share my stuff.
 
No, no. I'm just saying that the bar for "high resolution" isn't what it once was.
The fact that it's not such a wide-spread problem is why you no longer see people competing for that space. Now people just build image boards around niches rather than as general purpose storage.
 
I suppose I don't care too much about the high resolution. At least for the number of photographs I would put up. I still need a place to share albums though.
 
9:54 AM
morning
 
@Fabor flickr is fine. It's not going away any time soon.
Like I said, no one is going to compete with it.
 
Fair enough
 
@Danack Yes, thanks, but no thanks.
 
It wouldn't be the first time Microsoft's tried to buy its way out of a problem.
 
10:19 AM
morgen
 
@Fabor if flickr works for you it works for you, but there's plenty out there depending on your needs - e.g. imgur, google photos, smugmug.. all fill slightly different requirements
 
"Dynamic typing": The belief that you can't explain to a computer why your code works, but you can keep track of it all in your head.
 
@bwoebi So from a config standpoint if I wanted to make an endpoint /room/{name} which creates a new chat room, roughly what would it look like?
 
10:35 AM
@Fabor $router->put('/room/{name}', [Room::class, "create"]);
for a put request to /room/{name} with the callback Room::create
 
Does Aerys' router support ->put() ?
 
@Fabor It's __call() magic.
 
Oh, furry
 
Why would a research scientist contact me? Did you see any part of my CV that says researcher? confused
 
@Sherif They must be researching the dumbness of devs … :-D
 
10:42 AM
she
@bwoebi She's asking if I'm seeking funding. I'm not even a researcher! What made you think I was?!
 
@Sherif oh, well… she probably just thought you'd enjoy receiving money ^^
 
I got an email like that once from Nigeria.
 
:-P
Just once? :-P
 
I mean, I'm used to recruiters reaching out to me all the time. I can understand that, but why the heck would you think I was involved in any kind of academic research.
weird Internet is weird
 
10:58 AM
@bwoebi So the create method should be static?
 
@Fabor not necessarily.
 
How do store passwords in my filesystem?
 

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