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2:00 PM
@Ocramius fortunately yes
 
I'm sure there are a lot of people behind the leaving campaign and their actual reasons appear nowhere in the arguments the campaign offers…
 
@Blazed That depends on your learning capabilities ;-)
 
@DaveRandom @bwoebi I dunno, I have no actual answers, and when I try to listen to the "debate" it's not a debate at all, there are obvious holes in the arguments put forward on both sides, but also some validity, personal attacks on people ... it's all very confusing ...
 
@Blazed note: it is not a tutorial, it is for doing it right. For learning the basics, you'd probably look at other websites
 
Anonymous
2:01 PM
@bwoebi tizag
 
i know the basics, i know string, number, variable etc.
 
I think the only people who really know what they are going to do is those people that have been thinking about it since we became part of EEC ...
 
@Ocramius What I can study later basics?
with basics programming in php you can't do much thing
 
@JoeWatkins The problem is that there both sides cannot fully justify it. There are some benefits of being in the EU for them which they don't want to show people. And the same is true for the leaving campaign.
 
@Blazed Good question. I'm not really aware of good basic courses myself, but I should make a list or something.
anybody else got suggestions?
 
2:03 PM
anyway, I would become both web developer (Html, js and php) and programmer desktop/pentester
 
Anonymous
@Ocramius codeacadamy, lynda, pluralsight .. ?
 
I want study much thing
not just in one
 
Yeh, those could work
though they are paid websites. I can endorse, but not spam them around :P
 
i can't pay sry
 
Anonymous
Codeacadamy is free. I learned python there.
 
2:03 PM
I'm only 14
 
I find politics strange ... in the sciences, in engineering, you dispute an argument on the grounds of evidence, on the grounds of theory ... in politics you oppose opinion, principally because that's your job, it seems inherently dishonest ... these are pretty important questions though ...
 
python is good for pentesting and networking?
 
@JoeWatkins No argument there, it's a complete farce. I'm definitely in the "remain" camp, but I'll freely admit that it's really based on a deep-rooted belief that co-operative efforts are a good thing in general, and an aversion to storming off in a huff just because my friends didn't decide to do the exact thing I want.
Maybe we would be better off out in the medium term, but that would be screwing a bunch of other people over in the short term and wouldn't necessarily be good for anyone in the long term.
 
impartial press doesn't work either, because they can't just come out and say "actually X campaign is lying about that", they have to be "impartial" and present arguments they know to be false, as equal ...
 
@Blazed yeah, but there are also PHP courses on codeacademy
 
Anonymous
2:04 PM
> Codeacademy is free
 
Anonymous
@JoeWatkins Yeah, sadly that is true.
 
I'm not cool with walking away from something without some vague idea of what I'm going to do instead
 
@DaveRandom right, the maybe is the problem…
 
anyone would test me in html/css/js? (I studied recently html, css and js depth)
 
Are you folks bragging about the brexit bs?
 
2:05 PM
@NikiC @bwoebi If I null a variable holding generator containing a finally block that has not been executed yet, can I count on the finally block being executed at that point, or is the timing unpredictable?
 
@JoeWatkins The problem is that politics is done by informing people about the comforting facts and leaving the other part out…
 
@Ocramius bragging is wrong word, but yes
 
Sorry, probably translated it incorrectly, I come from the EU :D
 
@Ocramius do you would test me in html css and js?
 
:-P
 
Anonymous
2:06 PM
@Blazed Codeacademy also have tests codecademy.com Have a look
 
@Ocramius are you italian too?
 
Anonymous
For me it makes no difference, I won't be allowed to visit UK for at-least 12 years.
 
@Blazed sadly, yes
 
@Trowski not exactly sure what you mean … can you quickly write 6 lines up?
 
@Ocramius why sadly?
 
2:06 PM
Why not?
 
because italia is good
 
@Ocramius bragging means "showing off about", talking yourself up in some way (fyi)
 
sure, america is better
 
@Blazed hahahahahaha NO
 
Marco, any idea why I call you Marcus ?
 
2:07 PM
@Blazed also really NO
 
why italia isn't?
 
have you referred to yourself as that, or did I make it up, and you just never corrected me ? I noticed a few weeks ago ...
 
@JoeWatkins probably Marcus Germanicus or something?
 
@JoeWatkins I'm generally pleased if I can remember my own name, anyone else is a bonus
 
@DaveRandom yeah, too many names which begin with Chris*
 
2:08 PM
@Blazed man, you'll realize when you go look for a job contract (or a business contract) ;-)
 
@Ocramius You can always do worse, mate
 
@bwoebi Dave*
 
$generator = function () {
    try {
        yield 1;
    } finally {
        throw new \Exception('test');
    }
};

$generator = $generator();
$generator->current();
$generator = null; // Can I count on finally being executed here?
 
Anonymous
 
@bwoebi Just call me Christ, that's close enough
 
2:08 PM
@bwoebi ^
 
@DejanMarjanovic yo, you didn't come to PHPSRBIJA!
 
@DaveRandom hehe
 
conference was awesum
 
the first test they do to determine if you should get a UK passport should be exactly this ... call you by the wrong name and see if you are polite enough to go along with it, or alternatively apologize for having the wrong name in your correction of the mistake ...
 
Anonymous
haha
 
2:09 PM
@JayIsTooCommon I could swear I already did that
 
@JoeWatkins the INfamous British politeness confusing everyone? :-D
 
Anonymous
@DaveRandom N00b ?
 
Well that's a given
 
@Trowski yes, that's the last reference to it … same rules than __destruct() in general
 
@Ocramius I was trying to arrange a van with my former colleagues, and they turned out to be total pricks, and I couldn't make it then... they chose Exit Fest. Glad you had nice time :)
 
2:10 PM
@bwoebi I can make the Coroutine class simpler for handling exceptions thrown from finally if I can count on that.
@bwoebi I understood __destruct() timing to be somewhat unpredictable?
 
@Trowski yes, in case there is a cyclic reference.
 
anyway, I've a problem with every language that I'd studied a few (html, css, js, python, php, ruby, c and c++). I study syntax, basic etc. but I don't know never how to do program other "calculator" or stupid program
 
@DejanMarjanovic oh well, you went for partying. Can't blame you, it was a Friday after all!
 
so, if the generator holds a reference to itself, you won't be able to predict timing @Trowski
 
2:12 PM
What you do later study syntax and basics of a language?
 
@bwoebi Ah, that complicates things then. Plus I really can't be sure the code that created the coroutine doesn't hold a reference to the generator.
 
$generator = function () use (&$generator) {
    try {
        yield 1;
    } finally {
        throw new \Exception('test');
    }
};

$generator = $generator();
$generator->current();
$generator = null; // now you cannot rely on it anymore
 
@Ocramius Not exactly, they decided it's better to pay for tickets here exitfest.org/en/tickets than conference... But, I got drunk regardless.
 
(at least with 7.1)
 
must have been awesome
 
2:13 PM
@Ocramius What you do later study syntax and basics of a language?
 
re
 
@Ocramius It's in future, so not sure yet :D
 
wait @JayIsTooCommon you didn't remove the whole link?
 
@Blazed are you already familiar with software design practices, such as SOLID and/or clean code?
 
no, but if i don't know how to program normal program, I've need really of clean code?
 
Anonymous
2:15 PM
@DaveRandom Well they're still offering a pastebin, just the codepad goes to an error page. So I wasn't sure. Want to remove the whole thing?
 
just with html and css i'm good
 
@Blazed yes, you will need some idea of how clean code works, once you start working
because we spend much more time fixing stuff than actually building stuff
 
@JayIsTooCommon For now, yeh, I live in hope that he'll get it back up and running eventually (I threw him $20 because I've had a lot of use out of that site over the years)
 
@Ocramius i have an idea, but is really hard to code
same impossible
 
@JayIsTooCommon also can you rebase on current master? I just merged another outstanding PR to that line
 
Anonymous
2:18 PM
@DaveRandom No problamo
 
@Ocramius i would do a web app with html, css and js/jquery, i would do a web app to draw 3d shapes
but it's really hard to code in js/jquery
i'm just a beginneru
 
well, you'd use something like three.js
 
mh
I hate use framework (jquery except)
anyone, with html and css i'm good with css shapes
 
you can use raw WebGL, but that's very complex
 
hm no
have you any idea for a beginner?
jsfiddle.net/ossw8gw7 what do you think about it'
 
2:21 PM
I think we have a different concept of "3d shapes"
 
ok, i have another idea too
 
@Blazed there's tridiv that does that - codepen.io/juliangarnier/details/hzDAF
 
css to png
for example you write: <div></div> div {background-color: #000;width:100px;height:100px;}
and save a file.png with a square
@Ocramius you have understand what I means?
 
@Blazed yeah, I just don't really have a use-case for that. What you describe is HTML5 canvas
 
@bwoebi Not sure but think about if we had intersections too.
 
2:30 PM
@LeviMorrison yeah, then there would be an other method getIntersections()
 
That literally does the exact same thing?
 
in a way yes, but semantics…
 
I'm not strongly against it but feels off.
 
Do you have a better name?
 
@Blazed wkhtmlto
 
2:33 PM
Foo | Null
Bar & Baz
Hmm.
Btw, I missed a detail:
> ReflectionType::isUnion(): bool
Please, please no.
The whole point of ReflectionType was to avoid the is* API on ReflectionParameter.
 
But how do I then know whether it's an union?
 
isType(SOME_CONST)
Maybe?
 
I may have instead getUnion() and getIntersection() and compare their array size
 
That's what we were pursuing before but we pulled it.
Can't remember why; been too long.
 
@LeviMorrison nah, I prefer an explicit API then
@LeviMorrison that's IMO even worse
 
2:38 PM
It's definitely better by most people's evaluation. Can actually use switches, etc.
/cc @rdlowrey to see if he remembers this better than me.
 
@LeviMorrison Why Daniel? Daniel wasn't involved at all with unions?
 
He was involved with the reflection API discussion when we made ReflectionType.
 
I guess ReflectionType was made as a result of STH merged in
So then it makes sense for it to have only __toString() method (and isNull and another one)
 
@nikita2206 Return types, not scalar types.
 
ohh
oh so I can't do $refFunction->getReturnClass() or something
Maybe ReflectionType should be enhanced a bit in independently from unions rfc
That's what I've felt when I was trying to come up with reflection extension for callable prots
 
2:44 PM
@FlorianMargaine Only what's in the fpm source, it's not documented in the manual. :(
 
ReflectionType should be the better API for this stuff – it's just small right now so it doesn't screw things up majorly.
Right now we have the following options (in idea):
 
@salathe who do I have to hit to get it documented?
 
 - SingleType
   - Array
   - Callable
   - Otherwise assumed class, but what if we add enums?
 - MultiType
   - Union
   - Maybe intersection
 
@LeviMorrison hmm?
 
This was a bit quick and I have to go to a meeting:
interface ReflectionType {
	public function allowsNull(): bool;
	public function isBuiltin(): bool;
	public function __toString(): string;
}

interface ReflectionSingleType extends ReflectionType {
	public function getName(): string;
	public function getReflectionClass(): ReflectionClass | Null;
}

interface ReflectionMultiType extends ReflectionType {
	public function getTypeList(): Array;
}
 
2:55 PM
@Trowski Do we need an interface for Disposable?
 
Just think about it and we can talk later.
Obviously still need to discriminate between union and intersection.
 
@LeviMorrison I don't particularly like the idea of being able to discern unions and intersections solely by instanceof
 
if we get, in the future, other complex types like prototypes or generic types, they would fit this model easily
 
@bwoebi Not necessarily. Only if we ever had two different base implementations of Observable (which seems unlikely).
 
J.S
does anyone know if Google Rank business vetted SSL higher than domain vetted SSL’s?
 
3:00 PM
@nikita2206 I'd possibly even do gist.github.com/DaveRandom/5080dd15d39be2d8984bcfadd4863c16 but generally +1
 
@DaveRandom +1 for this one. /cc @LeviMorrison
 
@Trowski Even if we do, observables are fundamentally built upon an Awaitable and as you inject the dispose callback anyway, you can just hardcode it to Subscriber (which should be non-final then though)
 
@FlorianMargaine yourself? edit.php.net/?project=PHP&perm=en/… :)
@FlorianMargaine otherwise, raise a bug on bugs.php.net
 
@bwoebi We can always make Subscriber the interface if we needed another subscriber impl.
 
3:14 PM
@Trowski right
 
@bwoebi I'd rather see the method name be unsubscribe() instead of dispose().
 
me too
(That's what it does, right?)
 
Yep. The name Disposable came from Rx.
 
How often do I still have to repeat that you shouldn't inherit shitty names? :-P just kidding :-D
 
Naming stuff is hard and I couldn't be bothered. :-P
 
3:23 PM
that's a cheap excuse :-P
 
@Trowski I hope you don't have any children...
 
user895378
Really starting to believe that lots of discrete repos are an antipattern. Monorepo is the one true way.
 
user895378
versioning is stupid.
 
user895378
Don't break BC. Put related functionality in the same repo. Periodically do new releases.
 
@rdlowrey We agreed on that
We'll put the things into amp repo after initial dev
 
user895378
3:25 PM
\o/
 
user895378
We're just running into this same issue at work right now. We're going to be moving to a monorepo soon ...
 
Yep, I plan on merging awaitable and observable into a v2 branch on amp.
 
@rdlowrey It's just the loop which will be separate then (as you may use amp primitives with a loop provided by another party)
As there is no dependency between the loop and the primitives
they're only coupled to the interop
 
user895378
Yeah I get that, but why bother to split the loop out?
 
user895378
It costs next to nothing to package them all up together?
 
3:28 PM
@rdlowrey The main point is that the loop will have a file setting the loop factory
 
user895378
what does that have to do with splitting out the repos, though?
 
And if you have somehow two loops in your composer deps, you get both loops loaded and the one who comes last wins
the thought is to just include your wished loop in composer.json and don't bother anymore
 
user895378
Oh, so loop "instantiation" process is actually part of the interop spec?
 
@rdlowrey yes, in a way
 
user895378
makes sense, then.
 
user895378
3:30 PM
I'm still sad we're not requiring php7
 
@rdlowrey not too happy with that either… but well…
we can upgrade to PHP 7.1 in 2018
 
user895378
The only argument I've heard against php7 requirement is @kelunik wants to run php 5.x :)
 
right
That's the only argument I've heard too
but it's not a bad one (sadly)
 
I'd like to go 7 only... but honestly supporting 5.x isn't that big a deal.
 
user895378
With php7 you really don't need docblocks anymore.
 
user895378
3:33 PM
I hate docblocks.
 
@rdlowrey well, you do for actual documentation
 
user895378
IMO actual documentation is the code :)
 
user895378
If you write self-documenting code you don't need documentation
 
@rdlowrey That's fine for non-interfaces
 
"My code is self-documenting" -> "I didn't write any documentation"
 
3:34 PM
But interfaces still need to describe behavior expectations
 
user895378
Documentation is a lie.
 
user895378
It's a waterfall development lie.
 
@rdlowrey documentation is expectations (not necessarily actual behavior)
@rdlowrey Gooooooood
Now, have fun looking up everything in source code if you want to write PHP
documentation is important on API boundaries. In the inside, it isn't.
 
@rdlowrey you are confusing documentation describing implementation and documentation describing behavior
 
3:36 PM
anyone using ejabberd chat server
 
@Trowski It rarely is. It's generally a matter of principle rather than acute need.
 
Just go with 7 already, will ya?
it's not like anybody sane will build a reactive async app on 5.5 :-P
plus them interfaced return types. SO GOOD.
 
@bwoebi re: union types and reflection, having to parse it from __toString() strikes me as unfriendly. wouldn't it be nicer if you could get an array of ReflectionTypes? but then I suppose ReflectionType is already weird and already requires string parsing, so…
 
@Andrea We had a discussion about that…
 
@bwoebi ah
 
I see
 
o/
 
@Andrea what do you propose? Agree with Levi's interfaces? Better name for the function?
 
tbh I think ReflectionType as-is is messy
if I could go back a few months I'd want to re-redo it
 
@Andrea Agree
 
3:53 PM
@bwoebi Levi's interfaces would be an improvement, I guess, but they're not quite there
 
@Andrea So, what then?
 
@bwoebi I think ReflectionType would be some sort of abstract or base class, and you'd have some derived classes, I guess, which would look something like our AST nodes
 
@Andrea so basically what Levi proposes, just not interface
 
@bwoebi yeah, I like the direction he's going in
 
Prebecca!
u-u-u u-u-u umm--uhh yea
 
3:56 PM
* ReflectionType
  - ReflectionBuiltinType
  - ReflectionClassType
  - ReflectionTypeUnion
 
@Andrea so, you propose distinction via instanceof?
 
@bwoebi yeah
 
@Andrea Maybe… not the biggest fan… maybe…
 
this could be retrofitted to the existing ReflectionType, thankfully, but sadly there's a bit of messiness we can't clear up (allowsNull)
 
@Andrea But it's not that bad compared to ReflectionParameter
 
3:58 PM
though I guess we have to treat nullables specially anyway
@LeviMorrison yeah ^^
 
@rdlowrey That's why Amp has such low usage. It doesn't even have a generated API reference.
 
* ReflectionType
  - ReflectionBuiltinType
  - ReflectionClassType
  - ReflectionNullableType
 
@bwoebi We do?
 
@kelunik we do.
 
oh god I realised a problem now
 
3:59 PM
@rdlowrey That's a different case. It makes sense there. It doesn't for libraries.
 

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