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12:00 PM
notified , i want to be able to push what one user did to the others
 
/* {{{ proto ajf\Opcodekit\OpArray::__construct()
   Constructor preventing direct instantiation */
ZEND_METHOD(OpArray, __construct)
{
    zend_throw_error(NULL, "A-a-ah, you didn't say the magic word!");
}
 
can any one guide me ?
 
@Andrea sure it is… (except for internal classes marked final)
 
@bwoebi o.O
 
(because when you extend an internal class, you still can skip ctor by just not calling it)
oops, I'm still leaking mem^^
 
Wes
12:08 PM
@PaulCrovella still around?
 
@Wes I just woke up a minute ago. In my dream I was having trouble sleeping. Fuck.
 
Wes
lol
 
oh heh
even in PHP 7, zend_closure still has the object at the start of the struct! ^^
there's no property fields to clobber its data :3
 
jip
 
Wes
i want to try to add something to your rfc, but i need a suggestion. i'm not sure if i should mention that the void rfc wasnt necessarily wrong. what is bad is the lack of plain null, or rather returning null on purpose as a meaningful value
otherwise, it looks pretty good to me but i haven't followed the discussion on the ml so i can't tell what's needed to convince voters
 
12:16 PM
@ErikLandvall full disclosure: I currently have a use case for stringifying arrays. :) Still don't agree with http build abuse, but thought it was funny to share
 
@bwoebi do you know what get_constructor does and why zend_closure needs to override it to prevent construction?
 
@Andrea not 100% sure without reareading code
 
hmm
 
I'm TBH rarely writing extension code and even more rarely classes
 
@Wes ask me again after I've had more than 2 hours sleep please. the thinky part's malfunctioned.
 
12:21 PM
it's just part of the object API
so that custom objects can do weird stuff for ctors
__construct is never invoked by the vm, the engine invokes it implicitly in ZEND_NEW, zend_class_entry has zend_function* constructor (or something like that), but it can't be referenced directly just because custom objects may override constructors ...
 
Wes
@PaulCrovella lol, sorry about that. have a good sleep
 
having both looks like an effort to make the class reflect reasonably is all @Andrea
 
@JoeWatkins that might be it
 
(presence of get_constructor, or the value it returns does not set __construct in class entry)
 
oh hmm
op arrays aren't refcounted
 
12:26 PM
yes they are
 
oh?
> /* op_arrays are allocated on arena, so we don't have to free them */
 
@NikiC I consistently get over 1% runtime improvement in Aerys
 
@Andrea op_arrays are refcounted (i.e. the opcodes) … just the struct itself doesn't have to be freed.
 
@bwoebi ah, okay!
 
12:28 PM
(but only without opcache)
 
so, what, do I just do if (--op_array->refcount <= 0) destroy_op_array(op_array); ?
 
*
what are you doing ?
 
@Andrea destroy_op_array is doing the refcount for you
 
if you increased the refcount, you just destroy_op_array
 
@JoeWatkins ah okay
 
12:29 PM
use that to increase refs
(or something that looks like that, if you're doing something weird)
certain things are expected of the run_time_cache ...
it's too hard to guess what you are doing ... so I'll just shut up and await more questions :)
 
@JoeWatkins ah cool
@JoeWatkins my class is called ajf\Opcodekit\OpArray if that's any hint ;)
 
@Andrea github.com/krakjoe/inspector may be relevant ...
 
In PHP's sprintf, is there any practical difference between %s and %d if the argument is an integer?
 
@JoeWatkins goddamnit, I think this is exactly what I was looking for :D
 
@Andrea sorry ...
 
12:35 PM
@JoeWatkins no no, this saves me a lot of work ;)
 
it might not ... I haven't compiled it in a while ...
 
October 2015… should still work ^^
 
Only @JoeWatkins would apologise for being useful
6
 
@Andrea if it doesn't, you can fix it :)
 
@JoeWatkins shouldn't be too hard :D
 
@JoeWatkins Who needs Inspector when you have this and this? ;)
 
haha
'/^ L(\d+)\s+#\d+\s+([A-Z_]+)\s+(\S+)\s+(\S+)\s+(\S+)\s*$/'
in some way, I'm partly responsible for that ...
mostly @Andrea's fault ...
so is bob probably ...
 
Wes
@JoeWatkins how much time left to put gist.github.com/pcrov/3be13cb5937b096580d92293500c3319 this to votes?
 
^^
 
12:41 PM
phpdbg is probably the only thing left on earth that does not serve json for some reason ... maybe it could serve opcodes as json, on a unix socket, maybe ...
 
that would be less brittle when parsing ^^
 
@Wes nikita reckons 4 weeks and 6 days too late ...
you first need to discuss it, which takes two weeks, then voting ...
so, a day ... or so ... realistically ...
 
@Wes noooo
RFC: Introduce feature A
RFC: Remove feature A and replace with B
RFC: Restore feature A, ban B from ever being reintroduced
RFC: Lift ban on reintroducing B, remove A
 
lucky you ... working crystal ball ... mine doesn't do anything ...
I'm not really sure what chance it has @Wes
 
Wes
i thought the general agreement was "ok this was a bad idea" already. let's revert it asap before it lays eggs
 
12:46 PM
personally, I see the arguments on both sides ... both valid arguments
 
@Wes I don't think it's that clear
 
@Wes There is no agreement
 
Wes
no offense to @Andrea i thought it was ok too at first
 
void is bothersome in some respects, but null is probably even worse
 
yeah there's no agreement ...
@Andrea can we have both ?
 
12:48 PM
function modestProposal(): unset { return NULL; } // for consistency with (unset) cast
 
what is that ?
 
Wes
i don't mind having void as long we have also null
that's the problem...
 
I like the idea of not actually having a complete set of available type declarations
 
Hi I'm not sure if this is the best place to ask about this. If not please can someone point me int he right direction. I'm looking for some advice on video storage and how it works
 
I would rather not have both, and think there are better reasons for wanting to support null than there is to support void ...
 
12:49 PM
Instead, include the ones that are useful and encourage good practices
This is why I like void over null, while I dislike union types and resource
On the other hand, there is an argument to be made for a complete set of type hints that covers everything possible with dynamic types
 
Wes
define "good practices"
 
null|false|true|int|float|string|array|object|resource
 
there's nothing about supporting a union of two types that encourages you to create unions of ten
 
@bwoebi @JoeWatkins Dmitry has agreed to use my RFC (we're coauthors on it now)
 
basically I have a web application built using laravel, the app lets users download and stream videos. I have around 200gb of video content.
 
12:51 PM
@LeviMorrison GO
 
My plan was to upload the videos to my application , but this would make my vps very expensive and overkill, and someone told me to look at video storage through maybe amazon/google
 
He wants me to update the patch with some minor things first.
 
ok do minor things, then GO
 
Does anyone know how this works? Is it as simple as logging into amazon/google uploading a video and then getting a link to the video which i can save in my database?
 
@bwoebi Does artax have a way to get a client option that I don't see?
 
12:53 PM
Curl query - So usually when I went to "login" to a site view curl, I'll just open the site in my browser, sign in, copy cookies to file, use curl to read cookies from file and login. This works well in most situations. However, a site I'm trying to do this with now has facebook login - can I do the same thing with facebook login to view the site as logged in? would I need my facebook cookies as well? ... or barking up wrong tree?
 
You should always accept all cookies when doing things like that
 
@Andrea I take a more pragmatic approach, none of us are purists, few of us would know how to be ... if a feature makes a thing that already happens easier, or in some way better, that makes it worth considering ... it's matter of fact that we've created a world where lots of functions want to return one or two different types, there's no harm in catering for that, and there's no implication that you should take it to extremes ...
 
@JoeWatkins I'm cautious
 
me too
 
we don't particularly need any type hints at all
 
12:55 PM
but can we worry about people writing bad code ?
 
we can discourage bad code!
 
but, as mentioned, this already happens, we fail at discouraging it, we directly encourage it with a dynamic type system ...
 
@JoeWatkins yes, because sadly, people write code
 
can anyone tell me the best stackoverflow site to ask questions about servers?
if i make a question on normal stackoverflow it will probably get deleted
 
@Ocramius not enough minutes in an hour, hours in a day, or days in a week for me to worry about the shit other people write ...
 
Wes
12:56 PM
@LeviMorrison did you check the draft about void -> null ?
 
@MatthewSmart serverfault?
 
i need to ask about video storage and which host would be best
 
Off topic everywhere
 
@Wes No - I would wait until unions passes or fails to do it.
 
12:56 PM
erm, porbbaly not that as its not a server fault
 
But that's me ^_^
 
That's something you need to find out yourself for your specific use case
 
also
 
6 hours ago, by Joe Watkins
if anyone has any small rfc's they want to get into 7.1, you have 24 hours to announce/PR ...
 
Wes
@LeviMorrison today is the last day to put it into votes
 
12:57 PM
@JoeWatkins you are in a different role than me. Most of what I do is tech-lead/review/coaching
 
anyone have any opinions on killing #ifndef FAST_ZPP?
 
so I'm a CI for developers :P
 
@Andrea making sense
 
cool
 
Wes
@JoeWatkins isn't creating an hierarchy of ten types grouped by a common interface type just as stupid? what if you need just 9 of them later? what if again you realize you need only 8 of them? how big the type hierarchy must be to make you prefer unions? :B
 
12:58 PM
nobody's replied to that thread on internals yet
 
@Ocramius you misunderstand ... I worry about the code written by teams I work with ... but I can simply tell those teams to do it again until it's right ...
what I don't care about is what happens in the wild ...
 
@JoeWatkins ?
 
duplicate symbol _zm_startup_file in:
    ext/inspector/src/file.o
    ext/standard/file.o
ld: 1 duplicate symbol for architecture x86_64
clang: error: linker command failed with exit code 1 (use -v to see invocation)
make: *** [sapi/cli/php] Error 1
 
the first alpha is a month from tomorrow, so, I was going to suggest (not require) that there are no more /Zend rfc's after tomorrow ..
 
o.O
@JoeWatkins oh heck, it's May now, isn't it…
 
1:01 PM
yes
 
@JoeWatkins You can send a mail to internals with reasonable warning
 
Wes
@LeviMorrison unions can go in 7.2, it's ok, no hurry. void must be fixed now, instead
 
we may be in a position where a week before first alpha, all of these complicated RFC's are being merged
 
As in, you have one month left to submit your RFCs
 
well, four RFCs in 7.1 isn't bad…
 
1:02 PM
I'm waiting for davey to ok suggested timetable
 
Not: "Oh, I forgot to mention, but the deadline actually ended yesterday"
 
Wes
or @LeviMorrison let's propose to delay void to 7.2 (or after unions&intersections)
 
Alpha 1 - all features targeting /Zend must have completed voting.
Beta  1 -  all features must have completed voting - Feature freeze.
RC1     -  anything without implementation pushed back for 7.2
this is my current suggestion, okay ?
 
ah, found the problem
> PHP_MINIT_FUNCTION(file)
damnit, joe, namespaces :p
 
@LeviMorrison GOTO vote; :-D
 
1:03 PM
@Andrea :)
 
@JoeWatkins nah, that's even more restrictive than usual
 
Because the usual works so well...
 
@bwoebi I'm aware
 
You voted for him, NOW FEEL THE PRESSURE.
 
@JoeWatkins Just drop the alpha 1 line and it sounds fine
 
1:05 PM
we need dust to settle at some point ... there are people planning rfc's still today ...
 
To compensate, can require that everything has landed for beta 1
 
@JoeWatkins I'd rather have Alpha 1 … all RFCs much have been put to discussion … Beta 1 - all RFCs which shall make it into 7.1 must have been voted on
 
landed as in merged implementation ?
 
or that, yes
 
@JoeWatkins understandable. Not right, but fully understandable :)
 
1:06 PM
@JoeWatkins yah. though would be good to know how long alpha/beta periods are planned to really reasonably comment on this
 
indeed, worrying about everyone is not sustainable
 
@NikiC true … If we have like one month in alpha (two alphas)
then what I proposed is quite resonable
If we're going to have 12 weeks alpha, not so much
 
@JoeWatkins I wonder, maybe this would be a good time to actually have real "RCs"?
As in, use "beta" for beta only use RC for actual release candidates
 
@JoeWatkins I think the number of RCs is quite exaggerated
 
1:07 PM
As in, something that is going to be released if no critical issue was found
I.e. there can only ever be one planned RC candidate
 
there needs to be 6 month pre-release period @bwoebi
 
for PHP 7.0 it was somewhat required, but for a typical release 3-4 RCs should be fine
 
@PeeHaa What's the use case you mentioned? and how don't you agree? My point is not that the http_build_query function is in anyway doing something it should't, just that we offer the same functionality without the encoding.
 
@JoeWatkins it needs?
 
1:09 PM
@Andrea cool, you don't need to ask, ship it :)
@bwoebi apparently ...
 
6 months is as said, fine for something with such many changes like PHP 7.0
 
@JoeWatkins oh, hehe, hadn't noticed you'd added me :D
 
where we found a lot of bugs (like DEREF's missing etc. in RC phase)
but that won't be the case in 7.1
 
well it's still producing a lot of bugs ?
so where would the last beta be if we had real rc ?
also, it doesn't look like I'm allowed to change the day that releases are tagged, so I doubt I'll be able to change anything ...
 
@JoeWatkins I'd say 10 weeks beta and then RC
 
1:10 PM
anyway, thank you so much @Joe, now I can get elePHPants their coffee somewhat less hackily :3
 
@JoeWatkins Yeah, it's always the same weekday
 
@Andrea yw
 
:)
 
but apart from that it should be just pretty much reasonable
 
of course the entire concept is basically a huge hack anyway, but :D
 
1:11 PM
@ErikLandvall I need to stringify a list of headers from an array
 
can I change anything @NikiC ?
 
And I don't agree, because I still think this three line array_map solution works just fine for the times I ever need to do something likr this
 
I like that idea, I'm not sure why we need 6 months, or several RC's after several betas ... but I'm not sure that I can change anything ...
 
@NikiC start in early June, 2 alphas until July… then 10 weeks beta until mid September and target a release in October
@JoeWatkins just propose to Anatol first
 
oh heh, I last worked on ELC in May 2015, it's been almost 12 months since I last touched this code
 
1:13 PM
What is the opposite of an associative array?
 
guidelines say don't release on weekends, so I put the releases at the beginning of the week, because having them on thursdays ignores that we live in the real world, and sometimes they end up happening on fridays (just happened) ...
 
@JoeWatkins Don't we need multiple RCs because new functionality gets added at that point :P
 
@QuolonelQuestions not everything has an opposite
 
i.e. an array where we only care about its values and the keys are incidental
 
got told to move them back to tuesday/thursday :s
 
1:14 PM
@QuolonelQuestions It's called an array
 
@JoeWatkins I think we have tuesday/thursday to align with other version releases
 
associative arrays are a lie
6
;-)
 
that's called an array with one element @QuolonelQuestions
 
lol that ^
It's funny cause it's true
 
@bwoebi On the other hand, we don't want to release significantly earlier than a year after 7.0. (Though end of October does sound like a good target)
 
1:15 PM
Perhaps "unassociative array"?
Disassociative array?
 
Wes
@QuolonelQuestions sequence, or array
 
@NikiC oh yeah, I forgot ... the passage of time ...
 
@NikiC precisely … at least I expect 1-2 RCs to happen at least (that'll happen pretty much from experiences with 5.5/5.6)
 
@QuolonelQuestions dictionaries vs arrays
But oh well
 
another problem is that davey may not agree to needing an impl for beta 1
 
1:17 PM
@JoeWatkins why?
 
he's working on a thing with pierre, http2 cli-server support ...
 
!!wotd
 
margaritaceous: resembling mother-of-pearl; pearly.
 
@JoeWatkins About that ... I think the whole premise there is pretty stupid
 
@QuolonelQuestions enumerated arrays if you wish
 
1:17 PM
and it was his suggestion to allow impl to be delayed so late (I hate that, I don't like voting on anything without a patch)
 
Another useless word -_-
 
Exporting some curl features should not block on use implementing full blown HTTP 2.0 support in our server
If we can't properly test them, so be it...
 
@Fabor it's hard to see the difference between urban and wotd :)
 
@JoeWatkins I think Anatol will agree with you though
 
See I knew I voted right
:P
 
1:19 PM
At least I understood it in a way that Anatol can consult you when you disagree between each other.
 
o/
 
@JoeWatkins Anyway, that doesn't sound like a critical feature for 7.1 … may as well go into 7.2 if it doesn't make it in time.
After all, beta is for ensuring stability. Small more self-contained things may still make it in in early beta, but big patches like http/2 cli-server support … nah… either it's finished for end of alpha or 7.2.
no, alpha
 
yeah sorry ...
 
(assuming you're not going to plan 7 RCs…)
 
1:24 PM
@Levi anyway, I'd be happy to see an update on internals about the actual state and a time when you want to start vote on it (I'd appreciate if this were quite soon, like e.g. on Saturday or Sunday)
 
is that what you're objecting too ?
it looks like it has a common dependency with curl, but not dependency on curl
if I understand it
 
yes
libnghttp is quite a common open-source lib for most HTTP/2 things
 
@JoeWatkins I'm objecting to us requiring an implementing of HTTP 2 in the build-in server, just to land a trivial change to curl.
 
But it must be an optional dependency in any case
 
@NikiC oh that's what this is about ... I see ...
 
1:26 PM
@NikiC how is that related to curl?
 
@bwoebi The whole reason why they want to do this is so they can test a 100 line curl patch
 
that's the reason for the proposal "we find ourselves without the ability to test http2 things"
it's been one time ...
 
@NikiC That's a joke, right? … no wut???
 
no that is what is happening
 
anyway, they shall first fix http/1 server
I still have an open bug report around…
 
1:29 PM
I dunno if it makes much sense to talk about server pushing from cli server and performance optimizations ....
it is not and never will be for that ...
 
oh great, Inspector segfaults at PHP process start :D
 
but these are only our opinions, I need agreement on a schedule ...
@Andrea awesome
 
currently refactoring ELC to be "OOP"
 
@bwoebi Sorry... which RFC?
 
1:31 PM
specifically, putting the PHPDbg parser thing into the PHPDbg class, and making it implement an interface
 
@LeviMorrison the nullables you co-author with Dmitry?
 
so I can then add a class that uses Inspector to do the same thing ^^
 
@bwoebi Oh, I will update the patch today and send out an update to Internals as the "pre-vote" update I like to do.
Usually nobody says anything then, but I like to give the opportunity.
 
@Andrea phpdbg is written lowercase :-P
 
@bwoebi oh, yeah, but my class isn't :p
 
1:32 PM
@LeviMorrison yeah, that's what I meant :-D
@Andrea what exactly are you doing?
 
@Andrea it passes tests for me against master
(after minor mods)
 
ah, hm
when I built PHP-7.0 with it, phpdbg would segfault
 
also, ci is about to run I guess
 
@Andrea Ah, that's ELC, okay
 
1:35 PM
oh crap, phpdbg doesn't show <unused> now… my parser is screwed
 
@JoeWatkins As said, ask Anatol on his opinion
 
also passes against 7.0, may have found a phpdbg bug there @Andrea
 
@JoeWatkins heh
it begins - now I can make an Inspector-based back-end ^^
 
afk bcoz life
 
have fun ^^
 
1:46 PM
So opinion question: I've been avoiding using square bracket arrays unless the user indicates their PHP version. But now all current and supported versions of PHP support it. So should we just move forward with square brackets in answers and push users to use square bracket arrays?
 
@Machavity Yes.
 
@Machavity eh, user preference
use it if you like, but array()'s fine for those who prefer it
 
@Machavity you don't need to push anyone to use them, but it's fine to use them in answers and set an example
 
omg
  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
  | Author: krakjoe                                                      |
  +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
*/
@Joe I love that you didn't even include your email here :D
 
> Author: krakjoe *mic drop*
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