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11:14 AM
morning
 
indeed
 
@DaveRandom I've been reading some PHP source codes and according to our talk from yesterday there is somethiing like symbol_table but AFAIK it's adopted to hold scope variables, so is this misguided name? or am I missing some cocncepts? what actually should be understand as symbol in a language?
I sometimes feel like an actor who barely comprehend concepts related to writing languages. Can anyone tell me what exactly symbol should be in language construct? Variable names or function,const,class,interface,trait declaration? Or both?
 
11:30 AM
you mean language context ...
I would define it rather widely, something like, a symbol is anything that the compiler needs to make reference too ...
so it's any of those things ... if you split code into syntax and symbols, anything that isn't syntax is a symbol ... it may not have first class support in whatever language you are currently thinking about, but a symbol nonetheless ...
 
@brzuchal Anything that you can name
 
yeah that's good
 
It makes no sense to have any of those things with the same name, and not allowing duplicate names between any of those symbol types allows you to make some things syntactically valid that are currently not e.g. invoking an object property that contains a callable value directly, passing references to callable symbols directly by name instead of as strings or weird array constructs, + others but those are the two that piss me off daily
 
>
It makes no sense to have any of those things with the same name
reallly ?
it seems to make sense that we need to have variables and classes with the same (ci) name
 
*fully qualified name
 
11:43 AM
So thinking of symbol_table in context of PHP language this should consider variabled separately from function,const,class,etc. right ? Because variables have sigil in syntax and other things dont.
 
oh things are very different in php
wait wait, I'm not sure what this conversation is actually about ... what are we talking about here ?
 
@JoeWatkins Well sometimes it might, but the cost/benefit of disallowing it stacks heavily in favour of forbidding it
 
Yesterday I started about namespaces refactor and conversation goes into symbol table concept which could flush:

HashTable *function_table; /* function symbol table */
HashTable *class_table; /* class table */
HashTable *zend_constants; /* constants table */

in one tree with unique names in a few words, so I started studying source code and found out that `symbol_table` exists but it's desibned to hold scope variables
 
That's just bad naming though (as is zend_constants)
 
Correct me if I'm wrong
 
11:48 AM
yeah a symbol table in php is just for variables
I thought we were discussing theory ...
 
Yes, theory also
 
there is no theory used in the construction of php, or there wasn't until a couple of years ago ...
 
but it could be fixed right ?
 
well, how could it be fixed while retaining bc ?
 
and named properly
 
11:49 AM
yesterday, by DaveRandom
@brzuchal yes, yes it would. There are many things that would benefit from this, not least of which is that you would be able to pass method pointers like $this->foo instead of [$this, 'foo']. But it would be a huge BC break and it will probably never happen.
yesterday, by DaveRandom
@brzuchal a good business case, as it were. I think there are enough of them, but you need to be 100% clear in your own mind about why it's worth doing it, what benefits it brings, what problems it solves. You also probably need to propose deprecation in 8 and removal in 9, I suspect (you can try for deprecation in 7.2 and removal in 8, but I suspect people will not be happy with that).
 
whether or not it is sensible to have classes and variables with the same name ($ is not stored), that doesn't matter, that is the behaviour you have to make any solution to merging those tables compatible with ...
 
Well you could deprecate, and remove
 
DOCTRINE Q: Can I cascade persist and have it so that if an entity exists (due to the unique property) it uses that one instead of trying to create a new one?
/cc @Ocramius
 
It was done with ext/mysql, that's almost as big a deal
 
that's totally different
I don't think there is a realistic chance of deprecating that behaviour ...
 
11:51 AM
Neither do I, but if someone was going to try and do it then I would support it
 
you would have to have a lot of justification beyond that's the correct way to do it, and it allows some nice things ...
 
@DaveRandom can't justify his ass
(Also thanks Chris for helping me with the presentation I don't know if I thanked you)
 
haha, moin @Jimbo
 
can you point and name those nice things? I need pros to this concept
 
@Jimbo I can but it's uncomfortable. I prefer to keep it left aligned whenever possible.
 
11:53 AM
Chris just mentioned one ...
and I think he mentioned some others before ...
 
Also, ask twitter/reddit
 
but I think it worth mentioning that probably none of those advantages are impossible to achieve today, though they may be of the kind of complexity that gets refused, so is changing two decades of history and breaking so many expectations ...
 
so U think it's worthless to proceed with that idea ?
 
realistically, you're not really solving any problems by merging all those tables, introducing rules like "a variable and class cannot have the same name in the root namespace" is fucking weird, is the bottom line ... if you're focus is on merging the tables, then you need to attempt to do that while not breaking bc, you need to focus on the obvious performance problems that your solution will have compared to what we have today, rather than trying to change minds ...
 
nooo, I wasn't thinking of merge with variables and classes unique names
variables are ok , they have sigil "$" in their usage context so they should be considered separately
 
11:59 AM
the compiler doesn't have that, it has names
 
I'm speaking of merge with functions, consts, and classes
 
it's worth trying, if you can retain bc with the current behaviour, I don't think it's worth trying to change minds ...
will you also merge the function, and constant table inside classes, what about properties, what about static properties ?
what will your rules look like ?
 
in a namespace tree so there sould be tree struct with namespaces and their symbols, like HashTable with unique name in each namespace with unique function, const, class names
hmmm, don't know yet
 
well I would start there :)
 
properties and methods could be a problem mentally because there are no setters and getters support so there are developers who creates methods with same name as property as read-only getters
I'm trying to fully understand how this is now, why, and how to prepare clarified concept of this feature
 
12:05 PM
maybe, just accept the rules the way they are ... to accept them, and not change anything for the user, what you need is a fancy hashtable, which maybe using some collision management strategy can store many things with the same name but of different types (zend_constant/zval, zend_function and so on) ...
if you had that, and the performance wasn't terrible, then you wouldn't need to change any rules for the end user, you would just need to develop the algorithm for lookups so that it delivers optimum performance most of the time ... I have no clue what that looks like ...
you can still deliver the benefits, later, like method refs, but that's a different thing that needs thinking about separately ...
s/some collision/some fancy collision/
because you would want to go through first->next->next to get the constant with the same name as a property, or whatever ...
you need a clever thing that can fetch any type from the base address of the bucket, or somewhere within it ... in one add
s/lookups/lookups and the structure of the thing/
I really don't know what any of this really looks like, or if it's reasonable to talk about it ... but I think I do think it's worth trying, I guess ... it may be able to deliver unseen advantages such as reducing rather drastically memory consumption of classes, and maybe trim some fat from functions too ... if such a table existed ...
 
THX it's quite helpfull, I have to process it one more time
It' may bring class and namespaces access modifiers
I think it's the most important thing to resolve some dead ends on for eg. private class PR's
 
if you're asking what the most important thing is for php, it is fixing bugs ... always ...
 
an easy way to compare namespaces just by comparing pointers to this tree
 
yes it is, but I don't have such skills in C programming, thats why I whink I may be good in conceptual things
sorry my english is poor, I know that
 
12:18 PM
you're doing okay :)
 
thanks :)
 
@Leigh I summon thee, again (sorry)
also @DaveRandom and @kelunik
 
we need to reply to yasuo, he's saying that there was no bc implication, I can see that is not the case, but I don't know enough about it to sound authoritative ... so, voices please ...
 
Ahh, then I am not a good person to be talking to, you need clear, concise arguments and my understanding is not good enough to provide them.
 
12:24 PM
@JoeWatkins Did you see my latest response that it needs a RFC?
 
actually I just did ...
@DaveRandom yeah me neither ...
well ...
I wonder if he didn't understand your words or something
 
Try an interpretive dance
 
brb, trying interpretive dance
 
@JoeWatkins one more question: thinking of good naming for such table the most reasonable sounds symbol_table (first was thinking about declaration_table but actually I'll be looking different things) and if this would need to rename already existing symbol_table with all those functions including same in their name into for eg. scope_table or variable_table etc. that would require an RFC? or could be considered complex with whole idea?
 
SymbolTable is nicer imo, but naming things is hard ...
and yes, it would require an rfc
 
12:34 PM
@tereško ta. was thinking I would finish in prison someday
 
can anyone reproduce this ? (I can't)
 
me neither
 
which is pretty strange if it's a known bug in curl with a known fix
 
Hasn't there been some OpenSSL fixup work recently, especially regarding using openssl after fork
^ In php-src I mean, of course
 
ah that could be it, I didn't connect those dots
 
12:44 PM
@JoeWatkins Sure he did. He's just... special
 
I was too busy rebuilding different versions of PHP, because I'm a dumbass :D
 
@FélixGagnon-Grenier you have been warned
though, in your case you will probably get jailed for "fist degree hate speech"
(not gonna edit the typo .. it's better as it is)
 
> I added large warning to the manual recently, though
Uhm did somebody review that :P
 
@m6w6 thnx
 
np, yw
 
12:48 PM
@JoeWatkins Cannot repro on 5.6.1, 5.6.24, 7.0.11 or 7.0.12 (all CentOS 6 remi builds)
Oh no sorry, the 5.6.1 is built from source
 
@DaveRandom savage
 
It's a dev VM :-P
 
lol
 
bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=71915 was the fork thing, but that's just about rand...
 
I wonder if it might be an issue with a libcurl build that ships with a specific distro
 
12:51 PM
oh look at that, I was involved in that conversation
 
hehe
 
oh wait it's OSX and "linux"
anyone got an ubuntu box they can test with?
 
I'm ubuntu
that's a lie, I'm not ubuntu, I'm using ubuntu ...
 
Hello ubuntu
 
!!dadgreet status
 
12:53 PM
Dad greeting is currently enabled with a frequency of 1000
 
@JoeWatkins "ubuntu" is ancient african word for "I cant install slackware"
 
Dammit why can't you be sentient and figure out when it would be really funny
 
!!docs beSentient
 
[ event_set() ] Prepare an event
 
lol
 
12:55 PM
That algo is really weird, I have no idea how it comes up with those suggestions
 
does the doc search actually work or is it just picking a doc page at random?
 
when it doesn't get an exact match it returns the top result from the search page... or in other words "it's not my fault, it's php.net's fault"
 
morning
 
@Shafizadeh the point is: dont trust the attribution (identification of the author) of quotes on the internet
 
Anonymous
@Tiffany o/
 
1:04 PM
\o
 
o/
 
\o
 
\o/
I'm a dork.
 
lol
 
:O the Starcrafts hoodie is on sale for 27.50
 
1:13 PM
@Tiffany I thought it was a minimal requirement here
 
@tereško hah. Except I write with PHP 5 :(
and if I'm considered an engineer, then the bar is pretty low
 
Anonymous
@tereško @Jimbo Room 11 hoodies please.
 
What, our firewall blocks imgur now?
!
I actually use imgur for legitimate purposes :/
Weird, now it's working.
Jokes frequently go over my head. It usually takes me at least a minute to catch on.
 
@Tiffany so everyone can just buy my outfit now? :(
 
1:27 PM
@Naruto yup, and it's on sale
 
Anonymous
oh maaa gawwddd
 
still no HL3
 
@Tiffany look up the story of "PHP 6"
 
@Tiffany better change my outfit to someting unique then ;)
 
1:31 PM
What I really want is a remake of Goldeneye though. I know there are fanmade reproductions of it, but I want an official remake...
!!? PHP 6
 
Search for "PHP 6" (https://www.google.com/search?q=PHP+6&lr=lang_en)
• PHP: rfc:php6 - 5 jul. 2014 - The main confusion point cited by proponents of 'PHP 6' was that people will wonder '… (https://wiki.php.net/rfc/php6)
• What happened to PHP 6? | Hacker News - They skipped 6 because 7 contains none of the Unicode changes and didn't want … going to ask…. read… (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8786919)
• The Neverending Muppet Debate of PHP 6 v PHP 7 |… - 23 jul. 2014 - PHP 6 was attempted back in about 2010 and it ended up getting stuck in the mud. One… (https://philsturgeon.uk/php/20
 
/me is waiting for Skywind
 
@tereško made me think of Breath of Wind.... the only game that has made me consider getting a TV. But then I was told the NX may not require a TV...
not Breath of Wind
 
@Tiffany you don't have a tv?
 
Breath of the Wild.
 
1:32 PM
I was referring to Morrowind remake in Skyrim's engine
 
@Naruto I haven't owned a TV in six years.
Right now, I have one temporarily, my sister is letting me borrow one of hers because her household has about five, and I'm currently without a desktop. She felt bad, so she let me borrow one.
 
evening
 
o/
 
1:36 PM
thinkgeek.com/product/iprr this is pretty sweet...
 
\o
 
\o/
 
@tereško ah
 
Can someone close this or just remove it? stackoverflow.com/questions/40108571/…
 
I used to have 2100 geek points saved up on thinkgeek. Most of them expired, I'm down to 150 now. :(
 
1:50 PM
@JoeWatkins I was going to reply to internals with this question, but thought better because who knows what random asides and attacks I might get from asking a question. You said that the PHP-7.0 branch is "frozen" but isn't that where bug fixes are supposed to go (for the 7.0.x changes)?
 
I really need to try increasing my reputation.
 
@Tiffany you been slacking on the geek stuff havn't you?
 
@Naruto in regard to SO? Yup.
 
2:07 PM
Good morning
Is it possible to figure out what PHP version PhpMyAdmin 3.3.7deb11 is running on?
 
If you have access to the box, just look at phpinfo(). If you don't have access to the box, you don't need to know.
 
@DaveRandom What does it mean that I don't need to know?
 
Anonymous
!!caniuse
 
It means that you don't need to know. The only reason you would need to know is if you plan to run code on the box, and if you don't have access to the box then you can't do that.
 
Anonymous
2:11 PM
!!caniuse contenteditable
 
Anonymous
nice
 
@DaveRandom I have access to the FTP server to load PHP files that can be run on the "box".
 
Then just upload a phpinfo() script
!!docs phpinfo
 
[ phpinfo() ] Outputs information about PHP's configuration
 
2:12 PM
@DaveRandom But that's not what I asked. I asked if it's possible to see that via PhpMyAdmin.
 
why would you want to do that?
 
If the answer is no, I have other alternatives.
Because. It doesn't matter.
 
Well actually it does matter, because knowing the PHP version might enable an attacker (or you) to exploit some version-specific security flaw.
 
Found a question where someone was wanting to use multiple ids on an HTML document, circumventing the rule with iframes. wat.
 
I need the PHP version to plan what framework to use for the project before the admin gives me access to the web hosting admin panel tonight.
Does that help you with anything?
Thought so.
 
2:14 PM
Right, well if you have FTP access, just upload a script
If you are allowed access to that information, then get it. If you are not, then stop trying to do something you are not allowed to.
 
...
 
Anonymous
@Shoe getting shitty because you don't like the answer won't help either
 
Morning.
 
lol
The reason as to why I needed that info had nothing to do with anything and is purely my business.
Moreover I have FTP access and access to PhpMyAdmin which pretty much gives me a lot of ground if I were an "attacker".
Which is clearly not the case.
Why did I feel like I needed to specify that is beyond me.
 
Evenings
 
2:24 PM
@Jimbo not really, no. You will need to sync your tree manually
Something like Thing::newFromStuff($parameters, $existingOtherThings)
 
@Shoe Ever considered the idea that when people question what you are asking, maybe it's because there's something odd about the question? If you had access to the server, why would you take the time to see if you could find some information from a tool not for that purpose, when you can easily get that through other mechanisms?
Now, maybe it's because you don't know about those other mechanisms, and maybe it's because you cba with the rigmarole of FTP for a simple task, both of which are valid positions - I can't be fucked with FTP if I don't have to use it because it's stupid and long and complicated. But treating queries for clarification as hostility gets no-one anywhere useful. Avoiding answering simple, reasonable questions just makes you look suspicious and will be greeted with hostility.
tl;dr chill the fuck out
 
My point is that they were not reasonable questions. And I'm calm. You are the one using profanities.
Whatever. Thanks anyway.
 
They are perfectly reasonable questions, they are simply XY detection.
 
Cannonball in place! I mean.. canonical was added successfully.
 
@Tiffany shame! ding ding! ^^
 
Anonymous
2:39 PM
@Sean ping
 
@JayIsTooCommon Pong \o
 
A hardware question. I've bought a new HHD recently. The speed of coping file from a flash memory to it is 20mb/s ... is the speed ok?
 
Anonymous
Can't remember if it was you, but did you say you were working on the Jeeves imdb ?
 
Was going to take a look at adding the descriptors in, aye
If you fancy swiping it, go for it
 
@Shafizadeh Mb or MB?
(bits or bytes)
 
Anonymous
2:40 PM
@Sean you sure you don't mind?
 
@DaveRandom bytes (if it was bits then the HDD seems shit to me)
 
Then yeh that's probably reasonable. The bottleneck is likely the I/O bus(es), not the drive.
 
ah ok
 
@Shafizadeh USB2.0 max speed is like 60MB/s
no ... it's probably normal
btw, did you manage to get your data back from the old HDD?
 
@tereško what "no" refers to?
@tereško Fortunately Yup :-)
 
2:44 PM
@Shafizadeh it refers to me loosing the "train of thought" in the middle
it should have been "yes"
 
lol :-P
 
ah ok :-)
 
@Naruto yay, I got an accepted answer
 
on a different note, you probably will want your next PC to have SSDs instead ... cheap ones these days clock in around 500MB/s
 
@JayIsTooCommon Go for it :P For the cause!
> -Yeah, but apparently in the web we love making things complicated and then going back to the basics.
That hackernoon article is both spot on and hilarious.
 
Anonymous
2:46 PM
Cheers :)
 
@tereško SSD hards are pretty much expensive in here
 
they are kinda expensive everywhere, if you simply go by GB/$
I personally have a 240MB SSD + 4TB HDD setup
both of them did cost about the same (~150$)
 
do you have two hards on the same computer ?
@tereško ha ha ha :-)
 
I just found this
$this->json_data->token = md5("pizza" + time());
2
 
@Shafizadeh yes, the "system drive" is on the SSD (that's where OS, programs and games go) and the HDD is for "storage" (music, movies, tv series, books, archives, etc.)
 
2:51 PM
@tereško well that's a good idea
 
I actually have another SSD in that same machine: a 128GB one for linux
 
@Tiffany unique would have been my word choice :)
 
@tereško your computer seems like a giant
 
@Shafizadeh I am not sure about Iran, but in EU you can buy a 128GB SSD for 50$
 
@tereško lemme check
 
2:54 PM
@tereško 240MB is ridiculously low
 
@Shafizadeh I invested approximately one entire salary in it (about a year and a half ago)
@littlepootis for what?
 
An SSD
 
well .. what are you storing in it?
do you have more than 5 games installed at once?
 
What fits in 240MB?
 
FUCK
not 240MB
 
2:55 PM
@littlepootis GB
 
yes, I meant GB
 
that was obvious
hah, 240mb isn't a HDD at all .. it's more like a flash :-)
 
@littlepootis edited ;-)
 
@Naruto heh
 
2:57 PM
@JayIsTooCommon I did some research on it before
 
in 240MB drive (and not 240GB) you can put a OS with no GUI and some server (like DC hub or IRC terminal or firewall)
 
@Tiffany an id should be unique ;)
 
Apparently Newegg is going down the toilet, which makes me sad because I'm going to be building a new computer within a few weeks.
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa Difficult?
 
@Shafizadeh my fridge probably has more memory
 
2:58 PM
@tereško whaaat? which OS is less than 250MB ?
 
Anonymous
and hoi o/
 
@JayIsTooCommon Not so much. Just several external api calls
imdb doesn't really have a useful api
 
@Shafizadeh yes
 
There is a 3rd paryt one which I wanted to use
also hola
 
@Naruto That's what my answer was :P The person wanted to execute code using an iframe element, that had an element with a replicated id from the originating document?! Seems really weird, but I try not to judge after some of the systems I worked with, I can understand being limited to very specific things.
 
2:58 PM
@tereško what's "fridge" ?
 
It's not wide enough for most, but some fit.
 
@littlepootis well which one?
 
^^ and tiny core
 
That's what she said
 
2:59 PM
@Tiffany I just mean I would have used the word unique somewhere in there ^^for the rest everything is fine ^^
 
@Shafizadeh "refrigerator", that humming box where it is cold inside and you store food
 
@PeeHaa giggles ^^
 
Anonymous
@PeeHaa Hoki, will take a look. Just trying to build up the OS contribs. Pingable tonight? :D
 

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