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12:05 PM
bears these days :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Xo21L0ybE
 
12:28 PM
I have been having serious doubts about Star Citizen project
especially since they have been pulling this kind of stuff: robertsspaceindustries.com/pledge/ships/misc-endeavor/…
 
Anonymous
seems like my kind of game
 
Anonymous
@tereško Star Citizen is an upcoming space sim video game for Microsoft Windows and Linux .. have you every tried a game on linux?
 
yeah, but it's a kickstarted driven project, which already has burned bout 80mil of budget, if some reports can be trusted
it also has been in development since 2012
 
The prices of their games go up to $900, wtf?
You can buy a bloody iPhone for that much.
 
that project will fail and the shitstorm will be epic
 
12:33 PM
iPhone for $900? No, thanks I'll buy a feature phone instead...
 
Anonymous
@HassanAlthaf Where does it say $900? Unless it is based on Virtual reality, it's not worth it.
 
Anonymous
@tereško Sorry for the oblivion, but I assume one needs a GUI to run the game on linux, right?
 
@samayo well, you need Xorg installed
but the games on linux are not in any way tied to gnome or kde
 
Linux is too boring for me. :(
 
12:36 PM
riiight
 
I don't know why..
I can bare crappy windows, but not Linux.. :/
OS X is mi love <3
 
oh, you are one of those people
 
Anonymous
:)
 
I really love the feel of OS X lol
Once use OS X = Hate Linux and Windows forever
Especially OS X El Capitan <3
 
I prefer to have good hardware instead of good feeling
 
12:39 PM
The hardware is good in this.
Battery life is simply wow.
 
I keep my laptop on the entire night sometimes to download some large files, and I lose only about 10 to 20% of my battery.
 
yeah , I don't know how to tell you this, but I dont really care about batteries
 
@samayo Time to switch to another Http Component. Any recommendations?
 
I have a desktop PC
 
12:41 PM
@tereško I hate desktops. I love laptops <3
I just am lazy to sit on the desk all day long. Bed is the way to go <3
 
good for you
 
Anonymous
@HassanAlthaf github.com/guzzle/guzzle is mostly talked about
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kGHHMc5dqE
i am waiting for this
 
Anonymous
No sure how it fares for small scale apps.
 
@samayo Why are you saying 'small scale' apps? I didn't even mention why I'll use it. :/
 
Anonymous
12:43 PM
@HassanAlthaf Small does not mean bad. I just assumed that guzzle is very huge for anything other than huge apps.
 
Thank you for it though. It looks dope af.
 
@AnmolRaghuvanshi based on history: it will be a disaster
 
@samayo I realized it when I saw the example code on README.md. It has too much features I will never use.
Might use the one on Laravel/Symfony. Heard Symfony has a decent one.
 
yeah :) but previous parts are awsme..
 
not really, no
 
12:45 PM
In my honest opinion, games are becoming crappier day by day.
Although they become more HD, the story becomes shit.
Example: CoD
 
lol
 
@HassanAlthaf maybe stop playing crappy shooters that are released on a yearly schedule
 
I totally disliked Black Ops. I like that classical Brothers at War. It is amazing, although the graphics aren't as much as satisfying as Black Ops.
 
I don't think many people buy the likes of CoD for the single player story. It's a multiplayer FPS first
 
12:46 PM
ahahaah
 
@tereško I haven't played a desktop game since over a year. That means, I haven't played every game out there.
 
that might be because you are running a glorified tablet
 
Not really. I'm a busy and hard working boy. :P
I do play some online games when I have some free time on my smartphone.
I don't even own a tablet.
 
you do
you just think it is a laptop
the hardware you are running is pretty much the same
 
I own a MacBook Pro and a Galaxy Note 3.. :/
The only electronics I own.
 
12:51 PM
@HassanAlthaf this is what's inside a macbook pro: images.techtimes.com/data/images/full/58213/macbook.jpg
 
Damn, neat.
 
which pc game did you really liked teresko
 
@tereško I don't know of any tablet having an 8 GB RAM and an Intel Core i5 processor.
 
Anonymous
surface?
 
@HassanAlthaf I hop you are aware that your "i5" is a throttled mobile chip
the macbooks have terrible cooling, which makes the system to down-clock the CPU even at average loads
 
12:54 PM
I haven't experienced my macbook warm at all.
 
@HassanAlthaf .. which indicated that you did not understand what I wrote
 
@tereško 'have terrible cooling'
 
@HassanAlthaf do you know that "cpu throttling" is?
 
Of course I didn't understand the next part. I am not at all aware about these hardware stuff.
 
@AnmolRaghuvanshi xcom, hard reset, deus ex: hr, warframe, heroes 6, frozen synapse, ftl (those would be the interesting ones that I have played recentl)
 
12:58 PM
@tereško It's when you get angry and want to strangle your computer?
 
@Danack naah, that's the side-effect of cpu throttling
ok, I need to make a quick run to farmer's market
 
you are really interested in killing alliens ;p
 
Damn, my external hard drive cannot be formatted. :/
Wow, just realised I have a fkin SSD in my macbook lol
 
Anonymous
Meanwhile, my plans to buy dell xps13 has been downgraded to WD external hard disk fml :/
 
1:14 PM
good morning peeps
 
Anonymous
peeps morning good
 
morning
 
Anonymous
1:31 PM
o/
 
\o/
 
Anonymous
/o\
 
Anonymous
damn, part of me says use this logger the other part says, use monolog.
 
@samayo I'm not sure what to make of that one...
 
Anonymous
@NikiC It logs anything a file, send it to email or to database. Coupled with cronjob, it can scan /var/log/* files and sends/relogs any newly logged errors periodically.
 
Anonymous
1:43 PM
But since I made it, its as, always crappy :D
 
Déjà vu sensation but... @Danack did I ask you why not make a language construct like callable("func") instead of closure("func")? not sure if I asked this already, but now it's being asked on the mailing list and I couldn't find nothing on chat history.
 
@samayo no no, I meant /o\
 
Anonymous
Other half of the body :P
 
or perhaps I'm just fabricating memories :/ weird
 
@marcio yeah, I'm just drafting an email saying that the RFC is changed to Closure::fromCallable() as that is clear, and can get past internals for 7.1. And yes, making it be a language construct should be done as a separate RFC.....however I don't think that will pass, as people need to have a change in mindset.
Currently people think 'callable' is the type that represents things that can be called in PHP. And also think that closures are just an implementation detail. However that's probably the wrong way round.
 
1:47 PM
maybe the problem is that closures were stuffed in a "clever" but weird way in the language and now it's showing up.
 
Closures should be the built-in type to represent things that can be called, as they can represent anything that can be called, have a single reflection API. i.e. you don't need to call ReflectionFunction or ReflectionClass based on what it was generated from, which you do have to do for callables.
@marcio I think they're fine. Closures work perfectly for all use-cases as far as I can see, and I invite arguments as to why they don't.
The only downside to them is that the manual says that they are an 'implementation detail' and people seem to have just got hung up on that.
 
@Danack TBF, "closures" are implemented very awkwardly in PHP
 
Or to put it more simply, can anyone think of any difference that would result from having a custom syntax like $(SomeClass, staticMethodName) vs Closure::fromCallable('SomeClass', 'staticMethodName') ?
 
@Danack For starters, nowhere else in PHP can class or function names referenced like that
(Not that the current way of referencing callables as an array of strings and better, mind you)
 
Unless the proposal for the new syntax also introduced a new way of representing things that can be called in addition to callable and closure. Which sounds unlikely to happen.
@marcio For your perusal - Andreas RFC wiki.php.net/rfc/function_referencing
 
1:52 PM
I'd much rather want to do something like this:
 
@Danack I'd rather have $callabe = (callable) 'SomeClass::staticMethodName';
 
doThatThing('whatever', $myLogger::log)
Where $myLogger::log is the equivalent callable to [$myLogger, 'log']
 
/ combo breaker
 
@marcio *runs*
 
that breaks BC
learn your constant reference syntax, kids
 
1:54 PM
@Ocramius Yes, it does.
But then again, I kind of expected a major version that skipped a major version to have serious BC breakage for the sake of "greater good"
 
@AnmolRaghuvanshi that has never been a factor
 
@bwoebi what?. We even have (unset). Why not :P
 
@marcio You mean callable(SomeClass::staticMethodName)
 
@NikiC that was my first suggestion.
 
@MadaraUchiha make it a different syntax. $instance#method could be a thing :-P
 
1:57 PM
@marcio But callables are a pain in the butt to handle. If you want to inspect the parameters by reflection, you have to look at what type of callable it is and then use ReflectionFunction/ReflectionMethod as appropriate. With closures, you can just use the one reflection type for all type of thing that can be called.
 
@Ocramius # is a comment...
 
(since comments starting via # are already deprecated)
 
@Ocramius only in inis
 
I mean, PHP obviously needs three different ways to write comments
 
@NikiC aware, but they are already being dropped
 
1:57 PM
not in PHP code
 
@Ocramius Not deprecated
 
@marcio @NikiC also what I wanted and almost implemented
 
Oh, dammit, thought they were :X
 
@Ocramius The syntax really doesn't matter here
But it needs to be sensible
 
@Ocramius nah, they're a nice way for comments…
 
1:57 PM
An array of object/string or string/string just looks like a mega hack.
 
well, ClassName::function::bar then ;-)
 
@NikiC @Andrea @Danack I'd be 100% satisfied with callable(...).
 
@Andrea The main problem I have with it is the ambiguity if you consider things dynamic.
 
@marcio me too…
@NikiC hmm?
 
1:58 PM
:) i never played those games and mostly are releated to alliens now i will download and will have a look @tereško
 
@marcio yet another function to increase API fragmentation :P
 
@Ocramius E_NOT_A_FUNCTION, callable would have to be a language construct :)
 
@AnmolRaghuvanshi start with xcom
 
@bwoebi We couldn't unambiguously support something like callable($fn) only callable(strlen)
 
1:59 PM
Hi.
 
I had an RFC, you may recall: wiki.php.net/rfc/function_referencing
@NikiC how so?
 
@Ocramius it'd be a language construct… how dare you calling that a function?
 
Let's make it impossible to use as a callable, just for fun.
 
Even worse? :D
@bwoebi cool, more useless constructs that nobody can use with functional principles :P
 
1:59 PM
@NikiC why not? because method/property ambiguity?
 
@marcio did you understand what I meant by doing reflection on callables is a pain? Do you not think that's important?
 
@Andrea Damn, that feature is bloody amazing!
 
@bwoebi that and all other ambiguities ^^
 
@NikiC all other?
 
Maybe I should just revive the & RFC
 
2:00 PM
like constants and funcs?
 
with a new symbol maybe
 
well…
 
@bwoebi There's also the class constant / static method one, for example
 
looks like somebody is back to internals ^
2
 
And yeah, constants
 
2:00 PM
@Andrea the & RFC?
 
So I'd say callable() can only be used for non-dynamic stuff ^^
 
@marcio already reviving void :p
 
@NikiC What's the advantage in that?
 
2:01 PM
@MadaraUchiha no advantage
 
@NikiC So no point...
 
@Andrea looks pretty C-ish ^^
 
@MadaraUchiha It looks sexy. If that counts as an advantage, there you go. ;)
 
@bwoebi Alternative: Use callable($foo->bar()) syntax. That would be unambiguous
The distinction would then be with callable(($foo->bar)())
 
@HassanAlthaf No, it looks like a normal function returning a function
 
2:02 PM
but it's freaking ugly ^^
 
Which PHP doesn't really have
 
callable(Foo::$bar) can work, it's only as confusing as callable(Foo::bar)
people might think it's a constant after all
 
Functions are not first class citizens, yet.
 
@Andrea oh, please, that one would be useful. I'm tired of seeing people relying on return values from interface implementations that shouldn't be returning anything.
 
@marcio mhm
 
2:03 PM
@Andrea What's $bar in this?
 
@MadaraUchiha read back...
 
A function name? A property name?
 
@MadaraUchiha a method name
 
la property
wdf
 
@Andrea So why put $ in front of it?
 
2:04 PM
this will create confusion between a property, function.
 
Like in Foo::$bar()
 
You break the concept of least surprise
@Andrea That's how PHP works today?
with $ in front of method names?
That's not how I remember it
 
@NikiC I feel like we are doing the same than fn(...$args) => $cb(...$args), just very complicated…
 
@bwoebi hm?
 
Guys, all this is nice and all, but without proper first-class citizenship for functions, this is all just sugar talk, with no real benefit
 
2:05 PM
@marcio ping?
 
Let's be fair, it doesn't really matter if you call it ['Class', 'foo'] or Class::foo or fn('Class', 'foo')
 
@NikiC All we're doing is closure-wrapping a callable… and with a short closure syntax that's now so easy, do we really need callable(...) or similar syntaxes?
 
@bwoebi I really need to try getting types to work with ==>
 
@MadaraUchiha it gets the method name from the variable $bar
 
It's all the same underneath
 
2:06 PM
@MadaraUchiha this is existing syntax, variable method calls
 
I still want that syntax :P
 
@NikiC okay, but no lexer/parser hacks!
 
@bwoebi uh ... how else would this work?
 
it wouldn't :-P
 
2:07 PM
The nicest solution to callables is merging the namespaces. I am prepared to try that, it's not as hard as you think
 
Obviously it's gonna a be a big fat parser hack
 
@Danack sorry, was typing a gist. Yes I do understand that. I have no idea how to accommodate these reflection hacks.
 
@NikiC have fun with parenthesis counting ._.
 
@marcio just use a closure...
 
sure it will work, but, please, no.
 
2:08 PM
and everything works...
 
^ this is really one of the better gifs…
 
@bwoebi Yeah, really well made
BTW, any news about moving internals elsewhere?
I abandoned the thread midway
 
the thread died…
 
Sounds like internals
 
2:11 PM
@Danack I'm going to read the RFC again... something is wrong on my rationale.
 
I'd really like to be able to do something like this in PHP, without much of a hassle
 
internals will never move anywhere - too many people prefer the mailing list format. As for alternative interfaces, I doubt that's going to happen either - no one's even been bothered enough to fix the official NNTP interface
 
@bwoebi We could just allow T &$a => $a, no paren counting :P
 
@NikiC have fun with default values and arrays.
 
let fn = (function() {
    let i = 0;
    return function() {
        return i++;
    };
})();
fn(); // 0
fn(); // 1
fn(); // 2
 
2:13 PM
@bwoebi Who said anything about default values?
 
@NikiC ;-P
 
$fn = (function() {
    $i = 0;
    return function() use(&$i) {
        return $i++;
    };
})();
fn(); // 0
fn(); // 1
fn(); // 2
 
@NikiC And that works?
 
Yes
 
Not bad, it's a good start
 
2:15 PM
@MadaraUchiha I'd expect it to, at least ^^
 
(although you probabbly meant $fn();)
 
@marcio Just imagine that the current callables didn't exist, and we only had closures. Can you think of any problems that would produce?
 
I want to merge the namespaces but static properties fuck everything up I hate them so much
 
@MadaraUchiha 3v4l.org/INBqA
 
Now do this:
 
2:16 PM
whoever came up with that syntax, I do not like them
they are bad and should feel bad
 
function foo() {
    function bar() {
        return 42;
    }
    return bar() + 1;
}
foo(); // 43
bar(); // reference error
 
No, that works in php
 
@Danack by "current callables" you meant just the [$obj, 'func'] aberration only, right?
 
bar() exists outside foo()
 
@Andrea I think he means that it's not supposed to work
 
2:17 PM
@Andrea No in languages with proper scope
Also, I want to be able to call bar() multiple times without FATALing out
 
@MadaraUchiha PHP's scoping isn't wrong
 
@Andrea No
 
@MadaraUchiha you can
 
PHP's way of handling functions are
 
@MadaraUchiha it's different but by no means wrong
 
2:18 PM
@marcio yes. So that doesn't exist, and the only type that can be used in a function to indicate that a param should be executable is closure - function(Closure $fn) {}
 
What you call "closures" is a step in the right direction (at least in my mind)
But there is great power in languages being first class citizens
 
@MadaraUchiha That's just not how you do it in PHP. In PHP you use closures. In Python you use named functions.
If you do it vice-versa you're gonna have a bad time ^^
 
@Danack so, in this hypothetically universe you're proposing, even anonymous functions would be typehinted as 'Closure'?
 
@marcio yes.
 
@Danack Yeah ... don't do that.
 
2:20 PM
@NikiC why not?
 
I agree, languages should be first-class. während (wahr) { für ($i = 0; $i < 10; $i++) { sagen "Hallöchen!", PHP_EL; } }
 
You do not need to be opinionated about it
 
Mhhhh… I think we should add the foreach problem to Quick fix list at bugs.php.net
 
@Andrea Indeed.
 
If you like acquiring closures for everything, that's your problem, don't require it of everybody
 
2:21 PM
That's not exactly bad, but if proposed it should be a plan for PHP10 (considering sane +1 version increments)
 
@NikiC It's not that I don't like acquiring closures for everything
 
35 mins ago, by Danack
Currently people think 'callable' is the type that represents things that can be called in PHP. And also think that closures are just an implementation detail. However that's probably the wrong way round.
 
@Andrea you mean PHP_ZE ? :-P (Zeilenende)
 
But there is great power in being able to do something like this:
 
@NikiC I like acquiring closures but only so we can have nice syntax
 
2:22 PM
@Danack No, no, you are absolutely positively wrong about that
 
@bwoebi EZ because end of line
 
If we had introduced the closures we currently have first, and called them callables - what would the problem be?
 
mysql_fragen(...);
 
@Andrea Ende der Zeile That's so not German :-P
 
@Andrea :D
 
2:23 PM
$myEcho = echo->bind('Simon Says:');
(And I know that echo isn't really a function, bear with it)
Sure, you could do this:
 
Why not keep the callable thing? making it 'Closure' would be too much hassle. But first, callable(...) would have to pass.
 
$myEcho = function($whatever) {
    echo 'Simon Says: ' . $whatever;
};
But why the extra bloat?
Why can't functions be objects of their own? With methods and properties of their own?
 
@Danack I still do not understand the problem with callable(Foo::bar()).
 
1 message moved to Trash can
 
schlafen(3600);
 
2:26 PM
@NikiC lol
 
Sorry, I can't stand that
Code written in german ... uh
 
@marcio Look at what is needed to get the parameter information from a callable. It varies based on what the callable was made from. That problem does not exist for closures.
 
0,1 + 0,2 !== 0,3
 
@NikiC well… these poor English people where code is written in their mother tongue…
 
(I think this is valid in PHP just now but it doesn't do what you think)
 
2:27 PM
german is better suited to java
 
@Andrea PHP in general doesn't have a comma operator, except for.
 
@PaulCrovella lol, that's very offensive
 
@Andrea Yes, it's valid PHP. In HTML mode...
7
 
@bwoebi huh, til
 
2:30 PM
3 mins ago, by Danack
@marcio Look at what is needed to get the parameter information from a callable. It varies based on what the callable was made from. That problem does not exist for closures.
someone please give me an explanation. what's the conflict between this ^ and callable(Foo::bar())
 
sagen „Hallo!“;
Think I'll write a German PHP translator on the train
 
While you're at it, share the link to the slides of your talk.
 
s/slides/video
 
do we have a video already?
 
@marcio ajf.me/talks/… no video yet, sorry @PaulCrovella
 
2:34 PM
le sigh
 
ty
 
Aw I'm getting all emotional about all the awesome people I met at PHPNW - if you don't go to conferences and you're in this room, you really should :-)
3
 
@Jimbo I met you! :D
 
@Andrea Haha, finally! (Btw the train's at Preston - you are getting off now right?)
 
@Jimbo you suck and I don't want to meet you again (j/k)
 
2:37 PM
@NikiC we might only change called_scope when binding and leave scope intact for non-Closure Closures. That way the assumptions all still hold … the only question is whether that would be too inconsistent or not?
 
@Jimbo I got off, dw :)
 
@bwoebi Too inconsistent for sure
You can't just change what the binding does for a particular case
You can restrict it, but not just change the behavior
 
@Ocramius It's a shame you weren't here man, I had some really interesting conversations about not using auto increments but using GUIDs. But for nicer urls, holding a mapping between shorter, non sequential ids and longer complex guids
 
@NikiC because actually, while it's inconsistent, it's probably what you want to happen.
 
@bwoebi Uh ... want to happen? I don't think anybody who does that wants anything to happen.
Because it makes no sense, does it?
@Andrea ah, slideshare?
That format is somewhat inconvenient
 
2:41 PM
@Jimbo just use UUIDs
nobody manually types URLs anyway
and if you do, you use a URL shortener anyway, which does the mapping for you.
 
The point is called_scope is deciding about $this… which is probably what we want when we're rebinding non-Closure Closures.
 
@bwoebi That is what we want?
 
@NikiC doing things myself is more fun
 
@NikiC At least that's what I'd expect to happen when rebinding. I wouldn't expect the actual scope to change…
 
@bwoebi Doesn't the scope decide method visibility?
 
2:45 PM
@Jimbo UUID and GUID are a great idea and a horrid implementation. Just use 16 random hex bytes
 
@Andrea +1
 
I made a nice format for a project recently. 16 hex bytes, lowercase, with dashes every 4 bytes. So much nicer than the mess that G/UUIDs are
 
@NikiC it does. But what we actually need is the ce the properties live on...... mhm… I see that's going nowhere.
Yeah you're probably right.
 
So uh
the & RFC had this weird unbound closure abomination, basically it's like using :: from the wrong object on an instance method
 
@Andrea I don't like the & RFC
I mean the & part
 
2:48 PM
Yo
 
I think if I re-did it I'd make an UnboundClosure class instead
Yo @ircmaxell!
I did the talk on scalar type hints yesterday
 
@Andrea But why do you even want to make it unbound?
 
@Andrea I saw, looks to have went well?
 
@NikiC SomeClass::instanceMethod
@ircmaxell very! Glowing joind.in feedback mostly
And people I spoke to liked it ^^
 
declare(antialiasing=off)
 
2:50 PM
@Andrea yeah, couldn't hope for better for a first talk. Nicely done and congratulations
 
@ircmaxell thank you!
Yeah it went surprisingly well for a first. You were right that you speak quicker on stage. Funnier too, apparently
 
Lololololol!
 
@PaulCrovella NT 4 had it off by default and I doubt PowerPoint 97 supported it, might be wrong
 
@andrea did you submit to Benelux?
 
"PowerPoint 97" - new rule. Software provided to do a presentation must be younger than all of the paying delegates.
5
 
2:53 PM
LOL
 
I'm tempted to recreate the slides in minecraft
 
@Danack younger? Molder would be funnier
@PaulCrovella one of the talks in newm Zealand did exactly that.
 
@ircmaxell seriously... :o
 
Yup
 
please tell me it used fancy redstone transitions
 
2:55 PM
Was distracting, but cool
 
@ircmaxell no, when is it?
@Danack the OS is actually 6 months younger than me :3
 
The cfp likely closed, it is in january
 
@ircmaxell ahh
 
Hmmm, flipping through love songs is depressing and mind numbing.
 
Interestingly NT4 and PowerPoint 97 are both older than PHP 2
 
2:58 PM
@ircmaxell Listen to hardcore, metal and rap then!! it will get you hyper! :D
@Andrea Does anyone even use them pile of shts?
 
No, it is more that I am doing a video for my parents anniversary, and need to find the music...
 
Put this one:
Rain Over Me, Pitbull.
 

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