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4:00 PM
@DaveRandom but it's the CNAME right?
 
@Danack The problem with that is that you can't really throw in async code
Or at least, not outside the entry point routine
 
The packet I captured should look like the dig response I get on my computer for dig news.bbc.co.uk
 
@Danack Yeh it is, and the packet must be valid because the libdns decoder would explode if not - that throws all over the place if the packet is not valid
 
;; ANSWER SECTION:
news.bbc.co.uk.		476	IN	CNAME	newswww.bbc.net.uk.
newswww.bbc.net.uk.	243	IN	A	212.58.244.60
newswww.bbc.net.uk.	243	IN	A	212.58.244.61
So it should be returning null when I ask for IPV6.
 
yes
 
4:03 PM
Bloody unit tests....always breaking code.
 
/me wonders if the same logic error in the hosts file exists in other places
 
user895378
@DaveRandom I tagged a new alert v0.9.0 to handle the stuff I was blabbering about. There are no BC breaks from 0.8.1 so if you could update your composer references in Addr and elsewhere it would be appreciated :)
 
@rdlowrey you went from 0.8 to 0.9 without BC? that's ridiculous!
 
user895378
new features!
 
:)
 
4:05 PM
Thoughts on updated PHP.net homepage?
 
@LeviMorrison I don't usually say this, but there's too much contrast even for me.
 
user895378
I'm not crazy about shadows. A design is either flat or it's not.
 
@Danack You mean too bright? Or too much contrast (between blue and white)
 
Guys, I've come upon an OO problem. I'm decorating a Request object to build a request specific to some requirements. I may have 2 different requests, for 2 different clients. That's 4 requests. Now, I want to do multi requests. That means I'll need a RequestSet for each type of Request, for each Client. As you can see, this expands the number of classes significantly. Any ideas?
Any pattern for this sort of thing? Btw the client doesn't just make requests idly, it has descriptive methods for the things it does. Client::createSomethingOnTheServer, Client::deleteSomethingOnTheServer as very arbitrary examples. At the moment I'd be having CreateRequestSet and DeleteRequestSet, and that's just for one client. Seems like a lot.
 
@LeviMorrison I think I mean too much contrast - covering up the blue banner at the top makes it fine to look at.
 
4:10 PM
@rdlowrey The shadows separating the content pieces are all borders, actually. They kinda look like shadows though.
 
@rdlowrey github.com/DaveRandom/Loopio/commit/… - I'm going to remove the submodules from Loopio. They don't make a lot of sense there, being that it's a cross-version-cross-lib compat wrapper...
 
@LeviMorrison love it
@rdlowrey it's not flat...
 
@ircmaxell lol'd
 
@LeviMorrison apart from the PHP logo being barely 'seeable' it looks neat.
 
@MoshMage "visible" is the word you were looking for
 
4:19 PM
@DaveRandom thank you, I engrished for a while :x
 
> seeable - capable of being seen; or open to easy view; "a visible object"; "visible stars"; "mountains visible in the distance"; "a visible change of expression"; "visible files"
Can't say it's a really common word.
Then again I only learnt 'winningest' last month.
 
whoa! "winningest" ?! :O
 
More of an American word.
 
yeah, the Brits wouldn't allow that xD
 
@rdlowrey can you give packagist a kick for alert plz?
 
4:25 PM
Hello
> Namespace declarations cannot be nested
why?
lol
I always touch myself in the afternoon.
 
@Jefffrey why would they be?
 
So no, that's probably not.
@ircmaxell To create a nested hierarchy.
 
@Jefffrey namespaces only simulate hiearcy. They are nothing more than compiler-aided copy/paste
 
@ircmaxell So, there's no way to do something like this?
 
WAIT! I can use namespaces in php? wow.
 
4:31 PM
@Jefffrey No, nor should that structure exist within a single file.
 
@Charles Why?
 
but don't
 
The namespace api\validation\detail should be in api/validation/detail/*.php to comply with modern autoloader standards.
 
@ircmaxell Wow.
 
4:32 PM
namespace Api\Validation\Implementation;
@Jefffrey
 
@Charles lol, I think I'll do without autoloader. Thanks.
@DaveRandom Thanks.
 
@Jefffrey Ideally your namespaces will mirror your directory structure.
 
@ircmaxell my lovely running animated elePHPant :-(
 
@bwoebi :-)
 
@Jefffrey You can have namespaces deeper than one level (such as Api\Validation\Implementation) but each namespace would need its own file.
 
4:35 PM
s/would need/should have/
 
Namespaces are directories, not files.
 
namespaces are copy/paste instructions :-)
 
Shush.
 
:-P
 
You and your truths and semantics.
 
4:36 PM
@ircmaxell Would and should both apply here :D
 
The dude's already anti-autoloader, giving him more reason to do stupid things is a bad idea :)
 
@LeviMorrison yeah, but need is a bit strong (though in practice I agree with the sentiment)
 
@ircmaxell so, REJECTED!
 
s/need/MUST/
 
You don't need an autoloader.
 
4:37 PM
@bwoebi of course :-)
 
It can make things nice but they really aren't necessary.
 
Winamp already uses a llama, PHP shouldn't wheeze their gig
 
> wheeze their gig
 
@Charles autoloaders don't work with functions. So there's that...
 
@ircmaxell I forget, did the RFC on that fail or get withdrawn?
 
4:38 PM
@DanLugg Pauly Shorts speak
 
@Chris I know :-P
 
@Chris Winamp's motto is "Winamp, it really kicks the Llama's ass" vs "PHP Internals, it really sucks the llama's ass"
 
@Chris Lla-aaaaaaaama
 
Perhaps someday we'll have actual packages.
 
When I was a kid, tinkering with my first 286 and noodling in GWBASIC, I never imagined having to deal with such a high volume of animal anuses in a given day of work.
2
Speaking of anus, did you guys know that Drupal 8 is going to be built on Symphony
 
4:41 PM
@Chris it's actually half decent...
 
Correction: Drupal 8 is already built on Symphony.
 
How to multiply numbers with 1.2 with preg_replace? (pure regex)
 
I need to start updating myself to use symphony [because hopefully i'd be able to learn oop properly]
 
@ircmaxell Symphony or Drupal 8? Or the decision to build Drupal with an established library?
 
@Charles I'm not using classes for everything. In fact 80% of my code are functions.
 
4:44 PM
Well guys, You are awesome even if you're not guys but adults but I need to go home. Much cleaning to do :|
 
@bwoebi in decimal?
@Chris that decision was made like 2 years ago. They are stabalizing it now for release soon...
 
@ircmaxell yes.
 
Yeah, we were looking at it today. We have a big project on D6, and the debate is whether to go for D7 now, or wait half a year and jump to 8
 
@bwoebi I mean technically it should be possible, but why?
 
> If you're edged 'cause I'm weazin' all your grindage, just chill. 'Cause if I had the whole Brady Bunch thing happenin' at my pad, I'd go grind over there, so dont tax my gig so hard-core cruster.
 
4:46 PM
17
A: Can I use regular expressions to search for multiples of a number?

ircmaxellHere you go (In PHP's PCRE syntax): ^(0*|(1(01*?0)*?1|0)+?0{4})$ Usage: preg_match('/^(0*|(1(01*?0)*?1|0)+?0{4})$/', decbin($number)); Now, why it works: Well we know that 48 is really just 3 * 16. And 16 is just 2*2*2*2. So, any number divisible by 2^4 will have the 4 most bits in its b...

 
@bwoebi Isn't there a callback option for preg_replace?
 
I don't want to match, I want to multiply.
@LeviMorrison If only I could do that.
 
No 'h' in weazin', I'll allow it.
 
@bwoebi what are you doing? golf?
 
@ircmaxell because mediawiki has no loops, but a #regex parser hook…
 
4:47 PM
seriously?
lol
I love the evilness that you're trying to do
well, multiply by 10 is easy
multiply by 2 is hard
and divide by 10 is easy
 
@Chris I'm bringing back "don't tax my gig"
 
so really, all you need to do is figure out how to multiply by 2, and how to add
 
If only I'd be so good at regex :x
 
^ wrong ping? ... okay^^
 
4:52 PM
@LeviMorrison Better - it doesn't hurt my eyes like the previous one did.
 
@bwoebi look up (*SKIP) and (*FAIL)
 
@Danack It's because the breadcrumbs provide a transition :D
 
@DanLugg I like it, especially in today's cultural context.
 
lolneat.
 
@ircmaxell where was that list with SO references?
 
4:53 PM
@LeviMorrison yep...The black PHP is distracting but presumably that's not going to stay like that.
 
@LeviMorrison please, please make that omnipresent top bar a bit less present by making it thinner.
 
Since we are approaching the '20s again, can we please bring back Jazz music?
 
@bwoebi I think we can maybe remove search from the toolbar on docs pages and make the toolbar scroll away with the content.
Maybe.
 
@LeviMorrison no. That's fine. I just want it thinner.
 
@LeviMorrison It's 64px heigh… Seriously…
 
@ircmaxell lol@the beard pic... I am definitely the poster child for that one
 
@ircmaxell I basically know what these do, but I don't know how to use them here…
 
:-)
 
The problem is how to fit the sea of possibilities together…
 
5:04 PM
I never knew Dolph Lundgren was such a badass... Movie star, Speaks seven languages, Master's degree in chemical engineering, Fulbright scholar at M.I.T., Elite marine ranger in the Swedish military and a third degree black belt in Kyokushin karate.
 
I've solved the version number problem. The next version of PHP shall be known as: PHP VI: Return of the ElePHPant
 
lol
 
PHP VII: The ElePHPant Forgot the Number Six
 
@ircmaxell could you give me a few more hints?
 
@ircmaxell :D
 
5:10 PM
@bwoebi I really don't know... that's how I was going to start trying it
but I can't actually do it
 
@Charles PHP VIII: ElePHPants Never Forget (ElePHPants Never Forgive)
 
@ircmaxell Is it even possible?
 
@bwoebi @ircmaxell I don't think so
 
@bwoebi I don't know
actually, yes it is. PHP's regex is turing complete (thanks to recursion), so it must be possible. How, i have no idea...
 
Using regex to turn an input string into an output string that does not consist of substrings of the input strings is not possible
@ircmaxell Recursion does not imply Turing-completeness ;)
 
5:14 PM
@NikiC Oh, it wouldn't be a problem to first append some numbers to match.
 
@NikiC it's at least context-free
 
Only thing I know for certain is that regex is NP complete. And context-free too, yeah
 
@NikiC it's only context-free with back-references
 
@ircmaxell it's context-free with recursion
 
no?
@NikiC well, back-references are a form of recursion, no?
 
5:18 PM
@ircmaxell kinda
it's more obvious with subpattern recursion though
 
fair enough
CS theory isn't my strong point...
 
mine neither
 
well, you're studying it, right?
 
I'm studying CS
 
so you know more than me :-)
 
5:20 PM
Doesn't mean I understand the theory :D
 
true :-P
 
My module on language theory and automaton theory was by good margin my worst
I really sucked at that
dinner
 
I believe I'd suck at it too…
 
oh, the horrors
 
CS as in Counter Strike?
 
5:27 PM
yup
 
yep
 
Too many beards is distracting me from reading :P
 
The only important vote currently is whether we're going to use phpng as base for PHP 6 or not. Everything else is just kindergarten.
 
@bwoebi as if that won't pass
it's a pure formality
 
5:30 PM
Figured I'd throw my hat into the "internal's logo" ring.
 
@ircmaxell yep. But it's the only one which actually will change something.
 
yeah, true
 
Whether it's master, how it's called… whatever is as important as knowing about bullshit.
 
@DaveRandom I have a suspicion that it would be good to move the ResolutionErrors values in with the other AddressMode values, and make the two of them not have overlapping values. Doing that would remove the ambiguity of what the $type parameter is when it's passed to the callback function, as currently the error codes have the same values as the valid responses. Obviously people should be checking the addr value for null first, but you know people.
 
And Zeev&Pierre should just stop arguing so much. They should present their points, yes, but not distract from every other feedback…
 
5:36 PM
@bwoebi I've tried asking Pierre to slow down. Normally he listens to me, but not anymore...
 
Heya room
 
@ircmaxell I think it helps if Zeev slows down too…
 
@bwoebi definitely, but how the hell can you do that?
 
@ircmaxell no idea. Especially as Zeev still behaves as if he'd have more to say. Even when he always negates that…
 
I almost want to raise an RFC to ask Zend to relinquish its branding in the engine. So we can rename /Zend to /Engine, etc...
 
5:40 PM
Great idea.
no, seriously.
 
Is it because they're Jews?
 
@ircmaxell Especially as PHP6 is going to not be a Zend-only rewrite.
 
lol ^
 
ha
I want ZF to become ZorroFramework as well
 
@bwoebi it'll cause a hell of a shit storm, so I won't
 
5:42 PM
@ircmaxell only from Zend.
 
from the community as well
 
really? :o
 
People like Derick will be up in arms. "You're removing history!"
 
Derick is… Derick.
 
More like "You're removing encrustation" IMO
 
5:43 PM
and these are one of the things which need to be done but nobody has the courage to.
 
History belongs in a .tar
 
@DanLugg and gzipped once.
 
^^
 
@ircmaxell -1 mainly because zval
 
@NikiC What'd be a problem with pval? (PHP val)
 
5:44 PM
@NikiC can stay.
 
user895378
@DaveRandom Just force-updated on packagist. FYI you can add a "repositories" key for the repos in your composer.json like this to bypass packagist because packagist sucks.
 
@ircmaxell ^^
 
I would just not prefix everything with zend_foo, etc
 
@ircmaxell and use php_ instead?
 
yes
 
5:45 PM
@NikiC possibly, I'm not sure. Again, not a flushed out RFC, just thinking out loud...
 
lol, it's funny when naming conventions cross the line into marketing conventions.
it's like peeing on a fire hydrant
 
@ircmaxell You can convince Pierre to do it
Would be a great troll RFC coming from him :D
 
rotfl
 
@NikiC That'd be an … interesting situation. :-D
 
how about microsoft_? :)
 
5:47 PM
@Ocramius ^ that's not funny.
@Ocramius prefixing something with microsoft_ is like prefixing with bullshit_
 
@bwoebi and zend_ is different how?
:-P
 
@ircmaxell well. That's just shit_.
 
Oh, I see :-P
 
HEY!
I still develop ZF <_<
/me is sick of that too btw
 
That ZF is shit, that's nothing new.
^^
 
5:51 PM
@Ocramius It's where teh moneyz is.
 
@ircmaxell you really could propose it once to Pierre privately and post his answer here…
 
no, because it's something I think should happen
and if Pierre's the one to propose it, even if in joke, it'll kill it forever
 
@bwoebi =_=
 
@ircmaxell well… if you can persuade Zeev to propose it… I really don't know who is then then right person.
 
no, because they have no good response to it that makes them look good. If they put their foot down and say "NO!", they are going to look like asses. About the only thing they could do realistically is rely on non-Zend people to lobby for them (and vote for them)...
as far as who is right, there are ideas, just not sure who specifically yet...
 
5:55 PM
for example?
 
Sturgeon?
 
no, not Phil... Although that's not bad...
 
@SecondRikudo still needed?
 
It needs to be someone from the community. Someone known by both groups, who has a strong voice...
 
Actually you would not be a bad person either… but when you don't want.…
 
5:56 PM
@ircmaxell I'm not sure this would even be possible from a licensing perspective.
 
Maybe if @NikiC makes a ninja patch and says "Hi guys, this is done, just click " it'll fly through like expressions ;-)
 
@NikiC it would be asking Zend to change its license. Which would make it possible (since they retained the right in the license to change it ;-)
 
@ircmaxell Just no incentive to do so ^^
 
@NikiC which is why it needs to come from the community, not an individual...
and it needs to be phrased exactly right
 
@ircmaxell btw, the ast port is finished
 
5:57 PM
awesome, how's it look?
 
Well, what sub-group of the community would be sufficiently voiced? @ircmaxell
 
@NikiC nice
 
i.e. everything goes through it now
 
FI-cough-G?
 
@DanLugg no
 
5:58 PM
new drama?
 
@Gordon re-iterated
 
@NikiC what's the flow look like? Does the parser generate the AST directly? Is there a middle-layer or post-processing going on?
 
@ircmaxell I wouldn't think so either; that's why I'm curious who could champion such a cause.
 
ah, so did someone mention nazis yet?
 
@Gordon you just did
 
5:59 PM
@ircmaxell parser generates it directly
 
@NikiC awesome, so now you're free to swap out the parser at will?
 
@ircmaxell yeah, but here only. not on internals. someone prove godwin for the sake of it
 
yeah, should be possible now
 
I wish I knew enough about parsers to understand the differences between them (and why we "should" switch). I know the existing grammar is fubar, but not about the parser itself
 
now gotta merge all the upstream changes
which is a pita if the code is entirely different ...
 
6:02 PM
just never something I focused on...
 
@ircmaxell dunno, I'm okay with bison
never really used anything but bison and variants
 
ok
 
that should be possible with the AST... no?
at least for some of them
 
@bwoebi yes yes yes
 
Traitor.
 
Would exposure of the AST to user-land via an API to decompose expression be feasible @NikiC? I briefly mentioned it yesterday; was jotting some general ideas down regarding it as a feature for the future.
 
@ircmaxell not when the parser generates the AST. With a parse tree, yes.
 
@bwoebi well, some of them would be possible, like isset and unset would stop being reserved words...
 
6:26 PM
^^ more importantly, list ;-)
 
as initially, to the parser, isset() etc could generate a normal function call ast node, and then the compiler converts that to different nodes...
@DanLugg list would still need to be special, since you can't do fcall($arg) = blah
 
@DanLugg no, list() is an operand on the left side of an assignment, that's harder.
 
though, technically that is resolvable at compile time...
 
damn lvalues.
 
1 message moved to bin
 
6:28 PM
My cat does the opposite, he wobbles his head.
 
@ircmaxell Let's get crazy; function &f() { static $a; return $a; } f() = 42;
 
@DanLugg sure
 
@ircmaxell but isset() doesn't support every expression in it. just variables.
 
@DanLugg E_DISOWN
 
;-)
 
6:29 PM
@bwoebi fair, but that could likely be worked around, no?
 
@ircmaxell matrix(n, m) = f; quite normal in C++ ;)
 
@NikiC doesn't mean I don't disown him for using references...
 
of course, no argument there
 
If you could unilaterally remove variable references from PHP userland, would you?
 
@ircmaxell If you want to maintain a list which ast nodes can be inside isset, yes.
 
6:32 PM
@bwoebi well, but the compiler could validate that. There's nothing saying that the parser couldn't parse a technically invalid AST, which the compiler then validates (in fact, doing so could likely simplify some parser expressions)
@DanLugg no
 
@DanLugg no.
@ircmaxell not sure (about the parenthesis)
 
Okay, then is the "hate" due to concerns of unnecessary complexity introduced through the use of references?
 
@DanLugg yes
 
@ircmaxell in many contexts that's how it works. if (zend_is_variable(ast)) { ... } else { ... }
 
@ircmaxell Is there an alternative to pass/return-byref that you'd prefer? (aside from byval, of course)
 
6:34 PM
@DanLugg architecting the application so you don't need it
There are some cases where references legitmately reduces complexity
but they are few and far between IMHO
 
Fair.
 
> Geoff Taylor, chief executive of music trade body the BPI, said VCAP was about “persuading the persuadable, such as parents who do not know what is going on with their net connection.”
That's right. Only kids do piracy :P
 
@DanLugg I would remove the byref core functions, but not the concept all together.
 
ping @Danack?
 
@DaveRandom gnip.
 
6:48 PM
@Danack OK so I've been thinking about Addr on the way home and I have an idea which feels wrong but also seems sensible the more I think about it
All the data sources (hosts file, cache, servers) effectively implement the same basic interface, or should (namely resolve($name, $mode, $callback))
So what if that was turned into an actual interface, and the outer resolver is just a director that takes an array of these things in priority order and keeps trying things until it gets a hit or runs out of things to try
In this way, the server pooling could also work, so you can have a single server, or a set of servers, or some thing with a load of prioritising logic
 
@DaveRandom Sounds sensible - and would also make the ResolverFactory not be aware of all the implementation details of the other things, so sounds like a win.
 
@Danack OK so here's the open question then - where do the cache writes happen? In the server resolvers?
Also I realised it would be good to break the cache API a bit so that it's not just a key->siglne val store
(basically so that store() doesn't overwrite the previous value but appends it to a set, and auto-expiries are only done on TTL)
Reason being that things like google.com return many IP addresses
 
@DaveRandom I think at the same level as where the cache lookup is done i.e. the Addr\Client ?
So I guess the client would need to wrap the callable back to the user, with it's own callable.
 
@Danack Yes, which is where they happen at the moment. But if everything is just a "resolver", that means that the cache is treated differently, which seems a little wrong
(in that model)
Seems to me like maybe you should put the cache in the outer-most layer that's not the "director"
The cache writes, anyway
The alternative is having the director with a ctor signature of basically ctor(HostsFile, Cache, ...Resolver)
But the hostsfile and cache layer should probably both be optional
It might make more sense if I impl it in a dev branch and we can see how it works out
It seems a bit weird to have a thing where all the arbitrary depth layers implement the same iface
 

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