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8:00 PM
If something is removed, and you intend on continuing to use it you have to options AFAIC -- 1) Upgrade your version and emulate it 2) Continue using an older version that supports the behavior, and become responsible for patching a fork of that version with security patches as necessary.
Don't drag the whole fucking system down with your refusal to continuously audit and improve your code as the evolving environment mandates.
5
 
user895378
@DanLugg Preach it, brother!
 
I mean, I get it; legacy code gonna legacy, but that's not our problem. That's your problem. Deal with your problem in a way that doesn't make it our problem.
 
@DanLugg s/your refusal/management's refusal to allocate time/
 
@Charles Doesn't matter.
 
This is why we are still running PHP 5 point fucking zero in live production.
 
8:04 PM
@LeviMorrison Not trolling...at least, not entirely. :) I use varvars, and i like them. And i really don't like this campaign to try to turn PHP into a half-assed Java.
 
Evening people
 
@cHao Well, first off, PHP's type system when present is already better than Javas.
Secondly, what do you use variable variables for?
 
@LeviMorrison i can only agree with that because of the extent to which PHP supports duck typing.
which is basically the opposite of strictness. :P
 
@cHao It's not about "being Java", or "being C#", or "being <X>". It's about giving people tools to improve their development/testing workflow. Also, great point here: generally, you don't have to use the features you don't like.
 
@NikiC In a database we are storing`\0`, that is two characters. When we retrieve it seems to be transformed into a NULL char.
 
8:09 PM
Mind you, in the case of removing features, I can appreciate that it's problematic, but I'd wager that the reason for removing the features is that they're problematic to begin with.
 
@DanLugg Except when people go and start with the "this is evil" and yanking out stuff you do use.
 
Ideas?
 
@cHao "Evil" is subjective which is why JSON license is dumb. Easily abused, implemented poorly, cause for great confusion, etc., are all valid reasons though.
And I'd consider varvars to be in at least 2 of those mentioned categories (and probably countless unmentioned ones)
 
@DanLugg Actually, I think the JSON license is great. It just wouldn't hold up in a legal system which is the whole point.
 
Hello from Newark Airport
 
8:10 PM
@LeviMorrison NULL as in the type NULL?
 
Holy shit. I just got the first ever SO.careers message :|
 
As in a null pointer in the string and the string truncates (at least on echo; it may not be truncated in memory)
 
@LeviMorrison A thing that doesn't do the only thing it's intended for? I don't think I'd call that great.
 
@DanLugg sorry, but no, they're not justification for removing a feature. Especially in PHP's case.
 
@ircmaxell Hello from Rotterdam (ZH), The Netherlands
 
8:11 PM
@LeviMorrison It truncates at the first nul byte?
 
@cHao Well, this is where we'll agree to disagree.
 
@LeviMorrison but in any case, I don't know, never looked at db drivers
 
And "PHP's case" is no special case. It's just another crummy language with years of mold growing inside of it.
 
@cHao So what do you use variable variables for? I missed it if you said.
 
@DanLugg it is, actually. PHP was a hack from the get-go.
 
to go and retrofit strictness now, is to redefine the language :P
 
@cHao PHP doesn't have a "vision", but I'd be rather perturbed if I learned it was "continue being a hack in the same spirit as it's conception"
 
@cHao Isn't the language redefined every day or rather perhaps evolving?
 
@DanLugg and i'd be rather perturbed if it were "remove features because some people don't know how to use them" :P
 
@cHao Good. Retrofit optional strictness. You can continue doing most of the wonky batshit you've come to love, others can use it with a bit more certainty than that of passing gas through a cheese grater.
 
8:15 PM
@DanLugg i'm fine with that. like i said, adding stuff is ok. but if someone wants to remove it, they need a far better reason than "php programmers are morons".
 
@PeeHaa why "troll"?
 
@cHao Unfortunately (for you and the likeminded), retrofitting optional strictness comes with a bit of "mold-removal" too.
Or should, IMO.
 
@DanLugg i love how dynamic-ness is now "mold". :P
 
> A member of an internet forum who continually harangues and harasses others
@bwoebi ;)
 
@cHao varvars are a scary form of dynamic programming, in a manner of speaking. It's a kludge to treat the scope as a lookup structure; why not use an assoc-array?
 
8:21 PM
So... @cHao... you still haven't said what you use variable variables for. I am genuinely interested.
 
@DanLugg the scope is a lookup structure. That's its entire reason for existing.
 
Also, apparently GoDaddy has a 4-day period where they make you wait for a transfer to another registrar. You can cancel in that time frame, but there is no 'expedite' option.
 
Okay, reword: it's a kludge to expose the scope's symbol-table through a syntactic API. Why not just use a more readily understood construct such as a dictionary?
 
@DanLugg why should i? if they're discrete things, why should i stick them in an array just to satisfy some purist's ideas of what code ought to look like.
 
8:24 PM
@cHao So rather than accept uniformity as a benefit, you'd rather reject it to write perlfuck?
 
@cHao Because for the vast majority of programmers an associative array is gonna be easier to think about and work with as compared to variable-variables.
 
@DanLugg yes. and for the record, i like Perl. :P
 
@DanLugg You will accept my line noise and like it!
 
In this case it isn't about purity, in my opinion, but writing code that simple brains like mine can understand and reason with
 
@cspray i don't care about your simple brain.
 
8:26 PM
@cHao What about the brains of those people you do work with?
 
Well, this all boils down to something I've already said to you @cHao
Sep 19 at 16:49, by Dan Lugg
@cHao If you're ever looking for code-review, and somehow my name ends up on the list, please just cross it out.
 
@cspray the people i work with understand my code just fine. i overstate my preferences just a bit here; my code isn't quite stuffed with varvars and such. :) but i like that they're there when i want them.
 
@cHao So when do you want them?
 
@LeviMorrison when i want them? :P there's no case where you couldn't use an associative array instead. but i don't always see the need to.
 
@cHao Such as when..?
 
8:30 PM
@LeviMorrison when i don't feel like sticking stuff in an array.
 
Example, please?
 
if ($venus->aligned($sun, $mars)) use VARVARS;
 
@DanLugg if ($venus->$varvar_method_name($sun, $mars)) use VARVARS;
 
if ($$something->$$$does($$$$$$$$stuff)) // i lost track
 
@LeviMorrison there's no example. it's entirely a personal preference. sometimes i use them, sometimes i don't. but i see no reason they shouldn't exist.
 
8:34 PM
@cHao So you are saying that I need a justification to remove them, but you don't need a justification to use them? Is that correct?
 
@DanLugg lots of dollars, it must be important :))
 
I'm suddenly reminded that I have a $r = new \ReflectionClass($_POST['class']); $instance = $r->newInstanceArgs($_POST['ctor_args']) in my codebase...
 
@LeviMorrison pretty much, yeah.
 
@cHao I think we disagree then ^^
 
@LeviMorrison well, i already knew that much. :)
 
8:35 PM
For completeness, I think generally people should have to justify a lot of language features, such as using inheritance.
The more and more I program the more I dislike it and find it to be a frustrating source of silly challenges.
I'm not saying we should rip it out; I am simply saying that one should be able to defend their use of Feature X to accomplish Task Y.
 
Unimplemented features seem to have gone that way for the most part; we have to justify their addition more than their rejection. Legacy gonna legacy, but it'd be nice to fine-tooth comb the current feature set with the same position.
 
@Charles That sounds potentially dangerous
 
it's weird to argue that we shouldn't have generated files in git
 
@NikiC I have the class filtered down to a subset, and it's internal users only, but yes, very hypothetically dangerous.
 
@LeviMorrison i can agree to a tiny extent -- if one can easily point at them and say they're being used wrong (like class View extends Database), then someone had better be able to justify it. if you think a feature is inherently wrong, though, that argument loses a lot of weight.
 
8:42 PM
@cHao What if you had a feature which only allows you to make views which extend the Database and nothing else?
 
All features are inherently broken and wrong, except to those who have found a way to incorporate them into their daily keyboard-mashery.
 
Wouldn't it be inherently wrong if View extends Database is wrong?
 
@LeviMorrison then that would be how the language works.
 
Why is it somehow acceptable now because the language works that way?
 
to an extent, yes. it would simply be "how things are done" in that language. course, most people simply wouldn't use the language. :P
 
8:44 PM
Anyway, I need to get back to work. From this conversation I learned that everyone who has argued for variable variable has only used illogical arguments.
 
and everyone who has argued "against" them has too, as well as implying that we're all morons.
 
@LeviMorrison Wow, who would have thought that?
 
11 mins ago, by Levi Morrison
@cHao So you are saying that I need a justification to remove them, but you don't need a justification to use them? Is that correct?
11 mins ago, by cHao
@LeviMorrison pretty much, yeah.
 
@LeviMorrison that's right. they exist. if you want to go and redefine the language for the millions of people that use it, you had better have one damn good reason.
 
@cHao But you are saying that you don't need to defend your usage of it.
 
8:47 PM
and so far, the only reasons involve treating developers like children.
 
It exists, therefore its okay.
I am saying you should have to defend all features, whether currently present or not.
 
@LeviMorrison *because it already exists.
 
And I tried to get a valid use case for variable variables from you which you would not provide.
That's not logical.
lol
 
because it's another way of doing the same thing.
 
@cHao Being treated like a child is often a feature. I'd say that one of a primary jobs of a programming language is to prevent the programmer from doing stupid things.
Like memory safety - totally useless feature, we all know that programmers are perfectly capable of writing code that never causes memory errors and never segfaults.
 
8:49 PM
@NikiC i don't want a language that assumes i don't know what i'm doing.
 
@cHao then use C.
errr, I mean assembly.
 
@FlorianMargaine no, C is fine. It's just the compilers which warn too much ;-D
 
I can make a wheel out of cheese. For some purposes it will be a good wheel, if I'm in the right mood.
 
@FlorianMargaine i do, when the mood strikes. the problem with assembly is that it takes explicit to a whole other level. :)
If i know what i want the code to do, though, the last thing a programming language should be doing is getting in the way.
 
@cHao I don't think it's that simple. It's pretty common to give up a certain degree of flexibility in order to receive certain guarantees from the compiler.
Which is why some people use C++ instead of C. You give up a level of flexibility for type-safety
 
8:53 PM
Especially certain guarantees. Like correctness.
 
And which is why some people use Rust instead of C++. You give up a level of flexibility for memory-safety
 
@NikiC except that if you want to, you can still rather easily bypass the type system.
 
The compiler preventing the programmer from doing stupid things is considered a major language feature nowadays
 
@cHao I imagine you like multiple inheritance too?
@NikiC Possibly as far as the defining feature.
 
@LeviMorrison i do, actually.
 
8:55 PM
@LeviMorrison Yes, in the case of rust it's definitely the defining feature ^^
Weird how not allowing you to write certain code becomes a feature ^^
 
meh. i was going to try rust, too.
now you've killed it for me.
lol
in order for me to accept something as a "feature", i have to understand the reason behind it. what it offers (particularly when it's also taking something away).
in C++'s case, the vast majority of its restrictions have very good technical reasons.
In Java....meh. seems like it's more purism than anything else.
 
I'd like an opinion on the current thread w.r.t. the generated lexers
is it me or Stas only quotes the parts of the mails he wants to, and ignores half of the argument?
 
9:17 PM
got sigsegv because I tried to emalloc() in the error handler after getting a memory limit hit error :-D
 
9:28 PM
Well. I'd like to get warnings from compiler if passing wrong type into HashTable. So that it can infer what we pass into and what we fetch from it and verify if it makes sense...
 
@DaveRandom @DaveRandom @DaveRandom
 
@bwoebi surprised you didn't get worse :-P
 
@ircmaxell well, what else should I get?
 
well, pedantically, your RAM could have exploded. Which would have been worse :-P
 
emalloc after memory limit shouldn't be a problem - php still runs the shutdown sequence on memory limit errors, which can perform allocs fine
 
9:35 PM
@bwoebi totally understandable :) but that should be something you opt in to (or can very easily opt out of)
 
@NikiC well, no, the chunk of memory I emalloc()'ed in the error handler was too big...
 
@PeeHaa You rang?
Sorry I was busy stuffing my face with pizza
 
@DaveRandom No worries. It was fast enough :P
@DaveRandom Soooooo you were going to pick me up tomorrow?
:-)
 
@PeeHaa I think I have a couple of adapters somewhere, I'll go have a look in a minute
@PeeHaa Yup, 10.30 terminal 3 right?
 
Yeah . Somewhere around that time <3
 
9:44 PM
AM or PM?
 
:-P
am, need to get some drinking in
 
@webarto I don't always start drinking, but when I do it is early in the morning :P
 
@PeeHaa you will have your mobile phone with you I take it?
I've managed to find 3 euro adapter thingies, like this
I don't know if all/any of them work (I'm pretty sure at least one will though)
 
@DaveRandom Sane in, Insane out
I think the conf also has charging service
I doubt they only have retarded uk things :P
 
I've had issues with tranfsormer plugs in those things, some of them don't fit in a way that allows you to actually plug them in
but if you have anything that takes a kettle or fig8 lead I have shitloads of UK ones of those
 
9:53 PM
@DaveRandom Yeah I will give you a call when I hit the ground (one way or anoter)
 
I may even have one of those weird ass clover-leaf things somewhere
I guess your laptop is probably fig8?
 
/me google's images of fig8
 
Two pin, pretty standard
 
Is it the sane two pin or the strange non rounded ones? :)
 
^ that
 
9:55 PM
ow yeah ofc. It decouples :P
uhhhhm
 
I have a crapload of brand new ones, I'll just give you one
 
just check, I have a full blown desktop thing
 
I have plenty of them as well
We call them "kettle" (because that's what kettles used to use)
 
Just wow. You people on your island are strange. Normal people only have it for IT stuff over here ;)
routers and desktop and shit
 
@PeeHaa Yeh i mean in like the 80s
 
9:59 PM
-1
Q: PHP redirect not working after changing development machine

JDelageRecently I moved my WIP site from a Windows XP machine with WAMP to a MacBook with MAMP. As I test the site I'm finding that the redirects (i.e., $this->redirect="Index.php";) don't seem to be working. They worked fine on the Windows XP machine. For example on one of the page (at the end of a ne...

OMG IT SUDDENYL STOPPED WORKING!!1111....
 
@PeeHaa lol
 
@DaveRandom Either OP is stupid or the API is reeeeeeaaaally stupid
 
@ircmaxell do you need any UK cables?
I could do with offloading some of my crap on you people :-P
 
cables? or adapters?
 
10:01 PM
@ircmaxell Again a BGP fuckup :(
 
Cables, I don't have any US adapters (I don't think, maybe)
 
The fact the internet still kinda works just amazes me at times
 
@DaveRandom not particularly, what do you want to get rid of?
 
Should my function accept optional parameters or should it just accept an array?
 
I have a metric ton of fig-8 leads, and many more than enough kettle leads
so prob useful for laptops
 
10:03 PM
lol...
nah, the only one I could maybe use is a mac adapter, but even that I don't "need"
@ircmaxell Hey Anthony! Would you be interested in joining a @PHPRoundtable talk on PHP internals on Sun, Oct 19 @ 8PM CT? :)
 
Basically, I am writing a function to which you supply the sql query and have it execute. But sometimes, there maybe a need for variable binding.
 
What's that, cloverleaf? I have no idea what mac use, is it some crazy apple-specific thing?
 
yes, it's apple specific
 
Should I bother? or should I just copy paste the sql query block of code everywhere I need to use it?
 
Another Apple win. No, wait, the other thing...
Oh, do you mean the new iphone-y lead?
I forget what they call it
 
10:05 PM
no
which results in
 
Isn't that just a fig-8?
 
not sure
 
@DemCodelines what about 2 functions, one with a parameter, both using a third function having the common part?
 
@DaveRandom It's the same shape, but the total size of the brick is tiny, so it's not the actual figure 8 connector afaik.
 
Apple: because fuck you, IETF
 
10:13 PM
$$Goodnight guys.
 
Apple: because fuck you everyone who's not Apple
 
pretty much
 
@tereško sorry for phone ping :)
 
10:29 PM
I'm gone people. Cya all later. @DaveRandom see ya tomorrow tnx for picking me up :)
 
:-)
@PeeHaa text me at some point before you take off so I have your number
 
Will do
 
root@39113:~/php-src-full-duplex-phpdbg# ./sapi/phpdbg/phpdbg -nqb -rr
[Registered test_function]
array(0) {
}
root@39113:~/php-src-full-duplex-phpdbg# php -r 'echo `./sapi/phpdbg/phpdbg -nqb -rr`;'
[Registered test_function]

array(0) {
}
^ note that additional empty newline in second output
 
how do you increment a value in oracle sql?
update ... set ... = ... + 1 where id = 0 does not do anything.
 
10:50 PM
anyone good at basic regex?
 
If I do set value = value + -1, would it decrease the value by 1?
 
yes
 
See ya all tomorrow!
Well, all of those that I will see ;-). And yes, I realize that is a tautology...
 
@rdlowrey does your @php.net email receive mails to somewhere you'll actually read them?
 
11:13 PM
@ircmaxell See you later today maybe?
 
@Danack what time are you likely to be in town?
 
train arrives at 3pm - so probably will be at the wharf by 4-ish?
 
@DaveRandom Can I text you too?
 
Depends, I'm not sure I trust you not to mms pr0n to me randomly
oh gdi I forgot to ask @PeeHaa to get me 200 camel blue on his way through the airport
 
#define phpdbg_try_access \
        {                                                            \
                JMP_BUF *__orig_bailout = PHPDBG_G(sigsegv_bailout); \
                JMP_BUF __bailout;                                   \
                                                                     \
                EG(bailout) = &__bailout;                            \
                if (SETJMP(__bailout) == 0) {
#define phpdbg_catch_access \
                } else {                                             \
took me 40 mins to track that thing down…
 
11:37 PM
it sets the wrong global?
 
yes.
 
:)
 
so longjmp was really borked. Took me some time to first get from where it jumped to the wrong place... and then where the global was changed...
It's never a good idea to copy-paste too much code :-D
 

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