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5:00 PM
Hey guys.
how are you doing?
 
user895378
Wow, is this the worst case of ninja answer you've ever seen?
 
user895378
 
@rdlowrey LOL, link?
 
user895378
0
A: Close a Connection, but continue to do Processing

Frits van CampenShort answer: yes. <?php ignore_user_abort(true); // make sure PHP doesn't stop when the connection closes // fire and forget - do lots of stuff so the connection actually closes header("Content-Length: 0"); header("Connection: Close"); flush(); session_write_close(); // if you have a session ...

 
5:02 PM
@rdlowrey When I was an A grade rep-whore I did worse. :]
 
@rdlowrey dat repwhore mentality: GAWT 2 B FURST ANSUR!
 
@rdlowrey His current answer looks fine though :)
 
I'm going to conference about web technologies this saturday. My presentation is about php frameworks and ready. I just need you to watch slideshow and help me with any possible mistake that I've done. please join room chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/32768/my-presentation
 
user895378
It made me laugh that I happened to catch it in the window before it was edited :)
 
anyone willing to help me?
 
5:05 PM
Yeah, it's pretty funny :)
 
@rdlowrey Except now it's code only -- which is discouraged.
 
@LeviMorrison Full with comments though
 
user895378
Well actually it should be closed as a dup because I know I've answered the question before. Lemme dig it up.
 
user895378
On second thought, the answer I did was for a slightly different question (although the answer is the same) and I can't find another Q that's an exact dup. Oh well.
 
I CALL ALL PHP PROS!! Please waste your 5 minute to give score to my presentation about php frameworks. I need your suggestions. Please join chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/32768/my-presentation
 
5:12 PM
@TuralTeyyubogluAliyev please don't spam the room multiple times with similar messages.
 
@ircmaxell if you consider my messages as spam I can't do anything
 
@TuralTeyyubogluAliyev It's considered spam once you post it multiple times.
We saw your message the first time, no need for more.
 
Hi everyone, just after some help with understanding a regex. I know it may be lame to most of you, but I'd like someone to talk me through what each piece is doing. I'm looking at a regex info sheet, but how the parts work together I'm unclear about.
Here's the pattern

/[.?!](?=\s*[a-z])/i
 
5:16 PM
@Dan [.?!] - One of these characters
(?= followed by
 
yes, and if so, does it proceed?
 
\s* zero or more space characters
[a-z] a character from a-z
the i in the end means it's a case insensitive match
So basically, a period, question or exclamation mark, followed by zero or more spaces and a letter.
By the way, there are sites that can explain that to you.
 
user895378
> Part of growing up is realising that life's too short to cater for people who disable JavaScript.
3
 
@MadaraUchiha Yep, I'm looking at them. The issue I'm having, is that you can see all these commands on their own, but together it's much more complicated.
Why use this: (?=
I thought it would be ?(\s*
 
@Dan This is a lookahead, it tells the regex engine to look ahead and search for whatever is in the brackets.
 
5:21 PM
@igorw how about moving to goo.gl/maps/p1jp1
 
@MadaraUchiha Is this suitable for help? cheatography.com/davechild/cheat-sheets/regular-expressions
 
@rdlowrey by?
 
user895378
@NikiC I'm trying to find the link. It showed up in my console from the streaming twitter api because it matched "javascript."
 
@rdlowrey i don't disable javascript. lynx doesnt have javascript :P
 
5:22 PM
@Dan It's a cheatsheet, a small reference. It's nice, but not informative.
 
@Gordon Use links :P
 
I suggest you look at the other pages of the site I linked you.
It has some really good information there.
 
@MadaraUchiha Yes, I've got that open too. I've found this on the cheat sheet: ?= Lookahead assertion
 
@rdlowrey My tester at work told me our site doesn't work as well for people with JavaScript disabled (again, we generally sell JavaScript products).. I told her she is welcome to open a bug report in our bug tracker :P
 
user895378
Part of growing up is realising that life's too short to cater for people who disable JavaScript.
 
user895378
5:23 PM
@NikiC ^
 
@MadaraUchiha So this is a "group search"? ()
 
user895378
@BenjaminGruenbaum hehe nice.
 
@Dan Yes
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum nah, lynx is more awesome
 
stackoverflow.com/posts/17008972/revisions … see revision 3 … I thought SO only allows post editing above 2k rep because users should then know what's a valid edit… But some people don't learn it… don't ask me why :o
 
5:24 PM
@MadaraUchiha And [] are different because you only need one or more "things" for it to match..?
 
@Dan [] is a character set match.
[a-z0-9] will match a character between a-z or 0-9
 
Anonymous
@MadaraUchiha @Gordon had my first ever interview today :)))
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ Oooh! Nice! How did it go?
 
@MadaraUchiha Does this mean only characters, nothing like /s* ?
 
@Gordon I'm sold
 
5:26 PM
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ interview for what?
 
@MadaraUchiha As in, no metacharacters.
 
@igorw hehehe
 
Anonymous
@MadaraUchiha Not sure. Not so bad also. @Gordon what do you think :P
 
@Gordon I'd wonder if you use SO in lynx :-)
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ tbh, I am surprised you are allowed to work when you are a refugee.
 
Anonymous
5:29 PM
The odds are against me, due to being a refuge and not having a university background, that is why I applied for free @Gordon Just interview. They liked my proposal, because I said, I would work for free. Plus, my SO reps helped. I guess, they were all frechyyy, and never got their hands on SO before. I was told, "You have a good rep on SO" :)
 
@bwoebi nah, I am using chrome but I used to use lynx a lot when I was still doing websites to test their structure.
 
blah
 
Anonymous
I am expecting an answer on the 15. I have told myself, not to raise my expectations.
 
@ircmaxell E_CONTEXT!
 
@Dan Regex is all about the characters
 
5:30 PM
@Gordon the context is: "no context"
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum lol
 
@bwoebi yes, it's driving me crazy when he does that
 
current status: waiting for sapi/cli/php -d memory_limit=499g -r "\$string = str_repeat(str_repeat('x',pow(2, 31)), 4); var_dump(strlen(\$string));" to complete
 
he always does after my messages
 
@ircmaxell 499 gb? you have enough swap space?
 
5:31 PM
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ Your SO rep helped :P? You showed them a SO profile called 'php n00b' with angry eyes? I'm sure that left quite the impression :P
 
@ircmaxell at least on os x swap space limit is 64 GB
 
I am not testing this on OSX
 
@ircmaxell you know you can put -1 to disable the limit, do you?
 
Anonymous
@BenjaminGruenbaum What can I said. I felt pretty embarrassed. I tried to make it seem, as I was a man with a sense of humour.
 
@MadaraUchiha Well, I need one more part, some kind of conditional statement. This is for a preg_split, and I need [.?!] followed by any amount of spaces, and then letters, although the end word must not be "c."
 
5:33 PM
@Gordon doesn't matter
 
Anonymous
My chances are pretty dim, because they all use symfony & drupal. Something I have never tried before ..
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ why would you work for free?
 
@Gordon No experience I guess?
 
@jimbo @cheesemacfly
0
A: What is the best way to notify a user after an access_control rule redirects?

Carrie KendallSo after quite a bit of research, I found the right way to do this. You'll need to use an Entry Point service and define it in your firewall configuration. This method will not mess with your default page settings specified in your firewall config for logging in. The Code security.yml: fir...

 
@ircmaxell why did you use pow(2, 31) four times instead of pow(2,33)?
 
5:35 PM
sigh
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum most interns have no experience either … and get paid.
 
@Gordon We got an intern coming soon with no experience (for marketing though, no programming) so he'll be working for minimum wage (Which is ~1100$ here per month + health insurance and stuff).
 
@ircmaxell at least it will be two times a float in 32 bit…
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ Well then, you should try :)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum yeah, that's not for free
 
5:35 PM
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ Sense of humor is one thing, but you should apply to a PHP job with a nickname "PHP Noob"
 
Yeah, because there are laws here... also, making someone work for free seems cruel
 
$ time sapi/cli/php -d memory_limit=499g -r "\$string = str_repeat(str_repeat('x',pow(2, 31)), 4); var_dump(strlen(\$string));"
Segmentation fault

real	5m3.660s
user	0m0.578s
sys	0m16.701s
 
@Gordon A friend of mine from university (a student) wanted to work for free at some company, I told him not to do it. I told him that if he wants to work for free he should at the very least do it at an open source project doing something good and not for some company making money.
 
Anonymous
@MadaraUchiha I told them, that I am a humble guy, and I rather underestimate myself, than otherwise. :P they believed it.
 
5:37 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum absolutely. I remember ten years ago it was common practice to get interns and let them work for free. it's ridiculous. as if they dont have bills to pay.
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ I think changing your nickname is a smart move from now on :D
 
@Gordon still happens in the US in some situations
 
Anonymous
@Gordon I guess, better do something I like for free with experts, than stay home all day doing nothing. I could learn something from them, that is what I thought. Plus, maybe if I catch up, they would eventually hire me. But, they said, today they won't allow me to work for free, even if I was chosen :)
 
@ircmaxell it still happens here, too afaik. But the mentality of interns (and companies) has changed fortunately. or so I like to hope.
 
@Gordon I'd like to think that I'm at a pretty senior position, I can still probably name 5 developers I'd go work for for free right here right now and take a loan to cover the bills.
 
5:39 PM
agree
 
Anonymous
@MadaraUchiha Yeap. that call for interview caught me by surprise. They asked me to send them my CV, and since I had none, because, I am in this for fun, I just told them the right thing
 
@cheesemacfly this is what got me on the right track, thanks :]
 
Anonymous
They happen to be one of the best company in Switzerland also, which is very scary.
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ oh really, which one would that be?
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ yes, that's what all the exploited interns think. I like the job. I learn something. But it doesn't change that they are exploited.
 
Anonymous
5:41 PM
@igorw Can't tell. I don't want to ruin their reputation :)
 
The difference between an expert and a normal person is often just a matter of perspective...
 
@Gordon But if the choices are work for free or don't do anything at all, work for free wins.
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ tell us. I will delete the message afterwards :D
 
Specifically because you advance through working and learning, plus you get a CV entry.
 
@MadaraUchiha how about work for free on FOSS then?
 
Anonymous
5:43 PM
@Gordon sorry, if you want to see it. You have to come here there are too many people hidden here
 
@Gordon Even better.
 
@ircmaxell @Gordon I think there is a pretty clear cut between good developers and bad developers though. I can't quite name it, but I can tell by meeting them. There are the non-interested developers who got into it for the money, don't read anything they don't have to or had to when they were in college, don't adapt and aren't problem solvers.
 
@MadaraUchiha I find that foul reasoning. If you create value for that company, you shouldn't have to pay for the CV entry. I am not saying interns should be paid a fortune but ignoring that they have cost is unethical.
 
Then again, I can't quite name it, I think a lot of people feel it. For example you can throw an unknown API+code base at a good developer and expect them to 'figure it out'.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum not arguing that point
 
5:44 PM
@BenjaminGruenbaum כדאי לי להגיד לו כמה אני מקבל? :P
 
@MadaraUchiha למי?
We're talking about sacrificing cats to satan in case anyone was wondering what that gibberish is :P
 
לגורדון
 
Anonymous
@Gordon they are the best right? or somewhere along that line?
 
@MadaraUchiha אתה מוזמן, אבל אל תשכח שבסדיר זה לא עבודה זו חובה לאומית, ובקבע אתה בוחר מתוך אידיאולוגיה.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum או ר' :) אל תשכח את הר.
 
5:46 PM
@MadaraUchiha תמיד אומר להם את כל מה
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ well, they are definitely well known. I know people there. I guess @igorw does, too
 
@ircmaxell התרגום של גוגל תרגום מסריח.
 
@MadaraUchiha כן, כן היא עושה.
 
user895378
You guys are driving on the wrong side of the road. Left-to-right, please.
 
Anonymous
@Gordon see, I can really benefit from that environment. around pro's just like, I have learned so much in here. I wouldn't mind working free, at all.
 
user895378
5:50 PM
Before I started filtering for PHP-related stuff on the twitter live stream I had no idea that there is a currency -- the Philippine Peso -- that's abbreviated Php.
 
I'm going to bum you all, but if I were working for free, it wouldn't be on PHP. You can work for free on Haskell - come on :)
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ well, I still don't agree to working for free for a commercial company. Especially not that one. I know their daily rates. And especially not in Switzerland with the insane cost of living.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum
 
can someone link to meta discussion explaining why question upvote rep was lowered?
google is broken ^^
 
@CarrieKendall Question upvote rep?
When was it lowered?
 
5:53 PM
idk, it was 10, now 5 AFAIK
 
@CarrieKendall There is a meta question about that and it's ancient
 
i haven't asked a question for a while, makes sense ;]
can you find a link? i couldn't
 
Hello
 
Anonymous
@Gordon The country is insanely expensive, you got that right. Most of the time, people do not leave the refugee camp, because it costs too much to go to town, and comeback, by bus. even though, it's like 20 minutes. I visit the town, like 4 times a month :)
 
Anonymous
Seriously though, the guys rely in Symfony too much, so I gotta learn that as fast as possible. if, by any unlikeliest chance, I ever get the job
 
5:59 PM
fuuuuuu meta, the vomit of SO
 
@CarrieKendall ?
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum the link rot is giving me tooth decay.. every time i get close to why the question upvote rep was lowered :[
 
@CarrieKendall Around march 2010
 
@CarrieKendall +1 for your answer, I think this is the best way you can do it (even if this still look like a lot of work for a simple message display)
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum thanks, i couldn't find anything -.-
@cheesemacfly true, at least its a direct approach
 
6:07 PM
God bless the person who introduced css box-sizing border-box
 
@Ihsan Amen!
 
@MadaraUchiha :D
 
user image
3
> Hahahaha ^_^
> Don't call him. ఠ_ఠ
 
i have no idea how this is going to work. coupling and cohesion hosted by @jbrains in 12 minutes at http://bit.ly/12j8VeB can't wait
 
6:14 PM
that's now for those who are interested
 
This is a slightly different question... — BubbleMonster 37 secs ago
 
@MadaraUchiha No need for blood spill all around the chatroom. :) (this room will be then rated parental advisory: Blood, Gore, unnecessary violence and bad language)
 
in my presentation, 14 secs ago, by Madara Uchiha
They might say that they implement MVC, but the fact that they use A model per database is proof enough.
I'm getting that @tereško mood now. Please stop me.
 
not worth it
 
meh
 
6:20 PM
 
Anonymous
 
Anonymous
RIP
 
@MadaraUchiha , application logic actually should be part of model layer. That's the part that services does
 
For once I agree with ^
 
controller is part of presentation layer, it handles the user input and informs the model layer about it
 
6:24 PM
@tereško not sure if I agree there... I don't know if I agree that a controller is a presentational element... Not sure I disagree either... Just...
 
well ... i do not know what would be a better name for it
user interface layer ? .. sounds a bit off
 
I don't think that the controller is part of the presentation element, hmm
 
@tereško I know why you say that, I just don't know if it fits...
because it's decoupled from presentation to a certain degree...
 
you will have to elaborate
I'm kinda curious of what you train of thought is
 
without thinking it too deeply
 
6:30 PM
You know what, I thought about it, I think controllers are definitely a part of the presentation if you slice it into layers like you do.
 
you can change the presentation (format, rendering, etc) without touching the controller
in fact, one controller can interact with many different presentational formats
3
which then can mean, a controller is the interface to the outside world, and presentation is related to that only in some contexts
so with that thought
I would make the off-hand assertion that controllers aren't part of the presentational layer, but the presentational layer is part of the controller layer (the controller is the super set)
again, not thinking it out too much, just doing a mind-dump here
 
@ircmaxell you can change the output put not the input without touching controller
i would say that the input is tied to the interface
 
@tereško only to an extent though. Because you can have a front-controller or middleware that transcribes the input before it hits the controller
 
user895378
Is it a violation of the SO ToS for me to programmatically listen on a chat websocket connection, say room 11, and re-broadcast those messages in real time on another public site for demo purposes?
 
We'll find out in a second :)
 
6:34 PM
@ircmaxell there is no way to work around the fact that your form has now an "email field" where there was none before
 
user895378
lol -- I'm going to try it out it after I finish my php websocket client implementation regardless, but just wondered.
 
user895378
Is that worth asking on meta?
 
@rdlowrey I've asked in TL, should get an answer soon.
 
the front controllers cannot do anything about changed input amount of data
 
@tereško and there's no way to work around the fact that your service layer needs to react to that new field as well. The coupling between them doesn't make them the same
 
6:36 PM
I'd need 5 rep now to have 7777 rep, but I assume that I directly jump to 7782 rep :-(
 
@bwoebi Done
Take a SS
 
@MadaraUchiha what's a SS?
 
Screenshot.
 
@MadaraUchiha screenshot done.
 
Great
Back to 7772 you go :P
 
6:38 PM
haha :-D
 
@ircmaxell i guess i have to agree with that one .. but the original point was that, IMHO, the controllers and views are part of the same layer. Do you see them as things from separate layers ?
 
@tereško I don't know... I really need to think this through more
 
ping me when you had some time to mull it over
i would be quite interested in your conclusions
 
in Teachers' Lounge on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 21 secs ago, by Michael Mrozek
@MadaraUchiha http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/ask
That's the answer I got. Go ahead :)
 
@tereško I'll put it to you this way
My gut reaction is that they are not the same layer
BUT
 
user895378
6:42 PM
@MadaraUchiha woot!
 
@rdlowrey Go ahead and ask, that is:D
 
they are definitely related, but I don't think more so than model-presentation
 
But they said that people didn't mind the IRC/XMPP interface they made then, so it's probably OK.
 
well .. the relation is quite strong , since view will (should?) have only one controller
 
Actually, I wonder, the controller may need to be split in half. One at the external API layer, and one as the mediator layer
@tereško why would the view have one controller? One view may have 2 controllers (depending on action), and two views may have the same controller (depending on action)
 
6:45 PM
@ircmaxell i have seen something like that in MVP related publications
 
holy crap
revalation...
trying to figure out what it is
 
if (codeWorks) { goto showBoss(); } showBoss{ codeDoesntWork(); }
2
 
so , what's the good word ?
 
I have an image in my head, trying to work it out...
 
user895378
0
Q: Does reproducing a chat stream violate the ToS?

rdlowreyIf I wanted to demo my websocket client/server functionality by programmatically consuming a chat stream from one of the stackoverflow rooms and subsequently re-broadcasting the feed on another site via websocket push would that be a violation of the SO/SE Terms of Service? There's no commercial...

 
6:52 PM
@rdlowrey Let's see what you get
 
hmmmmmmmmmmm... Time to draw
 
@ircmaxell i will have to watch this panel again on the weekend
seems really good , but i think i missed half of the points
at least i hope it will be posted
 
user1596138
Nevermind.
 
Anonymous
lo.
 
Oh i see
Bring in suspense then fall flat...
 
6:57 PM
                                  +-----------+          +-----+
                                  | API Layer |<-------->|WORLD|
                                  +---+-------+          +-----+
                                      |  ^
                                      |  |
                                      v  |
                                  +------+-----+
                                  |Mediator (C)|
                                  |------------|
                                  |            |
initial draft
 
Now do a bunny
6
 
what is the Mediator sending back ?
 
a serialized response that's specific to the application (irrespective of the output protocol)
 
Just give me an additional layer, I can move the solar system!
 
i'm not sure it is anything MVx related
 
7:01 PM
(\(\
( . .)
c(“)(“)
6
@tereško Well, it expands it in a context where it realizes that the application itself is not responsible for presentation...
 
looks like mediator could be the webserver and the "api layer" - browser
 
perhaps
 
that's vaguely how i would interpret it
 
If anything the API layer would be the webserver
the last bastillion that you have control over...
 
waaaait ... isn't the "API layer" actually and expansion of front controller ?
 
7:04 PM
yes
 
that not only interpret the input , but also the output
 
correct, in PHP it'd be the SAPI
 
Where do you guys learn all this stuff? -_-
 
it communicates with the world, formats an internal representation of the request, hands to the mediator, takes the response and serializes it for the wire outbound
@Fabien this isn't learned, this is a new concept under discussion
@tereško again, not sure here, just brain dumping
 
/me is thinking ..
 
Anonymous
7:10 PM
@Fabien They invented it.
 
@ircmaxell Nice bunny btw :)
 
I'm way too invested in the whole MVx thing ... there is significant cognitive dissonance when I look at something quite similar
 
I try to think about it from the standpoint of polymorphism
 
but this seems to solve the whole "what do you do when you need to produce same response in either html, xml or json"
 
I can polymorphically swap out a View (say JSON vs HTML)
I can polymorphically swap out the API (CLI vs HTTP)
I can't polymorphically swap out a Mediator (as it's coupled to everything)
I can't polymorphically swap out my domain, as that's the point of it all
 
7:13 PM
you basically end up with "view" being in same layer front-controller, where FC interprets the input data and view interprets the ouput data
only i would not send the data back though mediator .. maybe ... queue the cognitive dissonance again
 
Anonymous
I on the other hand, may be the only person who thinks, using frameworks diminishes your potential, by helping you, use pre-made codes in-order to write faster. Whatever happened to writing codes from scratch.
 
depends on the job
If I owned a company making medium->heavy sites, lots of them... framework might not be such a bad idea
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ that's a one-sided negative view on frameworks, regardless of if you personally decide to use them, they support good and bad practices
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ Not necessarily.
 
@Fabien actually its quite the opposite. If company focuses on mayfly projects (produce in a week, let it die next month), like for marketing purposes, then frameworks will let you churn out a lot of projects fast. Basically, you take out technical debt and declare bankruptcy. In long-running project you cannot do that.
 
Anonymous
7:17 PM
@MadaraUchiha For me, since I am almost new to PHP. If I started using frameworks, It sounds like a negative thing for me, because, I want to master PHP first, before having to use something that helps me code better. Its good for the projects, but for me .... I don't know.
 
@tereško Is that saying big sites shouldn't use frameworks?
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ frameworks also can teach good and bad practices commonly used in major design patterns, there's a lot to gain from someone else's perspective on a pattern
or a community's perspective, for that matter
 
Do frameworks ever last?
 
@ircmaxell I will think on this concept. Seems like I could actually try to adopt it for some smaller think and try it out (especially since i will have more free time later this month).
 
@Fabien If the framework does what you need it to and it's a good solution which isn't going to limit you, it's a good solution.
 
7:19 PM
ruby on fails has
 
user895378
@Fabien Big sites that use frameworks are assassinating their $$$ bottom-line. Frameworks, more than any other abstraction, incur major performance costs.
 
@tereško perhaps, not sure
 
user895378
That means major investment in more hardware.
 
Anonymous
@CarrieKendall But, you recommend one to use symfony once, he is at-least at the intermediate level right? or would you advice a newbie to use a framework to ?
 
@Fabien for big sites the framework should be distilled from your codebase. Instead of using some canned solution.
 
7:20 PM
@rdlowrey Can you put that in terms of numbers?
 
3rd party framework, is a form of technical debt .. possibly from a loan shark
 
@tereško Evidence?
 
@tereško I agree. I guess I meant medium sites more than heavy
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ people act as though titles hold bearing. i can't judge what an intermediate programmer can do because there's no definition of an intermediate programmer. you need to decide if you're ready. read the docs, try to use it, does it meet your requirements? if yes viola
 
@Incognito you save time for initial development at the cost of future maintainability and hidden limitations. Especially if you use some of the rapid prototyping frameworks.
 
user895378
7:23 PM
@Incognito Yes, I can. Need to handle 100,000 requests per second? With symfony you're talking about a bare minimum of 500 servers. BARE MINIMUM. And that's if you employ really intelligent caching. I have extensively benchmarked things like this.
 
@rdlowrey have you benchmarked silex?
 
Do you guys ever feel like you're 'caught up' in terms of php knowledge?
 
@CarrieKendall silex is a glorified router+autoloader (also know as - microframework)
 
user895378
When you consider a standard framework will allow you to do a few hundred requests per second for a hello world vs. ~7,500 per second for a native php hello world you're fooling yourself if you think a framework is a smart decision for a really high-volume site.
 
@Fabien "caught up" how?
 
7:25 PM
@tereško i'm aware, your point?
 
Just feels like I always have crazy amounts to learn.
 
@Fabien caught up to whom ?
 
in terms of php knowledge
 
@Fabien Yeah I get that feeling too when @tereško is typing.
 
Anonymous
ex: So many people use jQuery to handle AJAX http requests, if you take jQuery and tell them to continue their project, they wouldn't. That is what using a framework seems to me like. First learn everything, then do the don't-reinvent-the-wheel thing later. First just reinvent, for the sake of knowing it.
2
 
Anonymous
7:25 PM
@Fabien Welcome to my world :)
 
@rdlowrey There's options you could take before 500 servers.
 
user895378
@CarrieKendall I have not. I don't personally think it's useful for anything other than very basic scenarios. It seems nice for those really specific, low-volume use-cases though.
 
Anonymous
If you spend some time in this room, that feeling will keep hunting you down like no other
 
@CarrieKendall just pointing out , that a large applications (that would justify use of SF2) will entail a lot more then basic routing.
 
user895378
@Incognito I was being generous when I said 500. Divide 100,000 / 400 requests/second. It's way more than 500 -- I accounted for those "other options" you're citing :)
 
7:26 PM
@rdlowrey hmm, i find it quite useful when rolling my own.
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ People nowdays don't know what's an XMLHttpRequest object anymore
 
user895378
@CarrieKendall Are you really rolling your own in that scenario (using silex)? :)
 
Do they need to?
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ first reinvent , and then, when you are done learning, see which of the available wheels is better for your particular need
4
 
@rdlowrey no, simply because i have never been in the scenario (via requests/second) but i still try to build as though one day it might matter
 
Anonymous
7:28 PM
@tereško that is what I wanted to hear.
 
there's a lot of wheels to try
 
user895378
Of course, the simple fact is that 99.5% of sites will never reach the level where a framework's performance drawbacks become prohibitive. That doesn't make it a good idea to write an application that won't scale.
 
@Fabien You rarely need to try them all.
For instance, the one that says "CodeIgniter" can safely be disposed of.
 
^ though you would need to understand the "why"
 
I used codeigniter a few times
then I felt it was inhibiting my learning so I stopped
 
Anonymous
7:30 PM
Sometime, I get too radical that, when I see a PHP IDE suggesting box, giving me a hint, I am like 'LEAVE ME ALONE' I can do this meself :P
 
@rdlowrey sure, but it also doesn't make sense to sacrifice a bunch for performance if you're familiar with the needs of your app
 
@phpNoOBఠ_ఠ or worse, the hint covers something you're tryingto look at
 
user895378
@CarrieKendall I'm not really sure what you're saying ...
 
@rdlowrey Based on your bench marking what specific aspects of typical frameworks do you believe causes this degradation of performance? Is it something that can be resolved with the design or just the overhead cost of typical framework's are just that high?
 
user895378
7:32 PM
My point is this: if you have the ability to write something that's targeted toward your specific problem domain you're far better off doing that than using a framework. Most people, however, are not capable of this.
 
@rdlowrey this means: no framework = best performance (if you use simple scripts)?
 
Anonymous
@MadaraUchiha I fear someday tough, that frameworks will evolve to something like WYSIWYG, or a drag and drop application. No one won't code anymore, and the beauty of literal programming will be lost forever.
 
user895378
@bwoebi lol, only if you write it correctly.
 
@rdlowrey yeah, sure…
 
user895378
@cspray OOP abstractions mostly. Tons of method calls to do simple things. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I love OOP, but every abstraction is a tradeoff with performance.
 
7:33 PM
@rdlowrey Fair enough. I figured that might be the case
 
well ... Yii already contains "widgets" and comes with bundled jquery. IMHO, that framework already had gone wrong.
 
@rdlowrey when you begin something serious you never know if you need to be able to distribute load over servers etc.
 
thanks
 
Should help with my trouble sleeping :P
 
7:46 PM
@tereško You may like this : youtube.com/watch?v=RyBc9I6Lvao I like 1:58 - 2:30 part a lot
 
hello.
 

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