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9:00 PM
k back from the depths of linux. What did I miss
 
You know what bothers me? I just commented out a few lines in PHPs foreach implementation and not a single test failed :/
I hate it when that happens. Because I usually use that to figure out what a particular piece of code does
 
@NikiC Aren't PHP's tests like a swiss cheese
?
@GordonM 1 sec. lemme check
 
@PeeHaa They are. Or rather, some parts are crazily over-tested and others are hopelessly under-tested
 
@NikiC What's strange about it?
 
@GordonM Nearly all of it
 
user895378
9:03 PM
You know what makes me happy? I've been doing major refactoring all day with nothing but red in my tests results ... but everything just turned green. Mother F'ing woot.
 
@GordonM why are you adding spaces between functions and (). My mind thinks it sees casts
 
Because the whitespace keeps me sane.
 
P.S. don't argue with @NikiC about CS. You'll loose ;)
 
Code with no whitespace makes my eyes go squiffy.
 
@rdlowrey That's how it should be.
 
9:05 PM
@PeeHaa You missed this.
 
@PeeHaa muah
 
Seriously, i honestly have problems locating the bracketing if there's no space between it and the function name. Shitty eyesight and nystagmus. Also, you leave a space before a bracket in English so why not in code?
 
@LeviMorrison nvm
 
Everyone's loving the colours!
 
@GordonM :)
@LeviMorrison can those release dates be on the same line as the title (aligned to the right)?
 
9:09 PM
I only ever don't leave space between a function name and the opening bracket if I'm using a language that's retarded enough to fail to parse it, such as MYSQL
 
@PeeHaa Probably.
 
@GordonM A non-exhaustive list: You use tabs, instead of spaces. Your variable definitions are $crazily = 'overaligned'. You leave a space after the function name (same for array access). You don't leave a space before the ? and : of the ternary operator. You use the curly-bracket style if in templates. You put the { on the next line for if, but not always.
 
@NikiC 1) so? 2) I like them aligned (Also, readability issues for people like me with shitty eyesight and eyes that won't stay still), 3) Already explained my reasoning on that one 4) You don't leave space between words and question marks or colons in English so why should you in code? 5) so? 6) Probably an oversight on my part, I never leave the { on the same line as the if
 
@LeviMorrison ssh better, but think the other content could be indicated somehow. Perhaps in that right menu
 
@LeviMorrison I like the fact that you get rid of those blocks a.k.a real estate stealers
 
9:13 PM
The "eliminate all whitespace" advocates don't realise that for some people it's the whitespace that's the difference between readable code and a total mess. Then again most people don't have nystagmus :(
 
@GordonM So when I want to type something here in chat that I don't want you to read Icanjusttypeitlikethis? ;)
 
@PeeHaa Not cool dude. You try reading stuff that's typed like that if your eyes are constantly doing this. upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/…
 
@GordonM I just looked at that on wiki :P
 
If I see someone wearing vertical stripes I get the urge to be sick, and to punch them. Usually in that order. :)
 
hehe
 
9:17 PM
Therefore my code has lots of whitespace in it and I'm not going to apologize for that or change because someone like function() instead of function ()
@PeeHaa And I think I just proved that statement wrong :)
 
@GordonM 1) see 2)
(I.e. I also align my variable assignments, but the fact that you use tabs for alignment makes them appear completely fucked up in the browser)
 
It's not meant for viewing in the browser.
 
@GordonM It is.
Code commonly gets viewed in the browser at some point
 
Besides, I'm sure your editor has a "reformat code" option if you really hate it that much. It's not like my coding style would be unreadable to you (though I'm not sure the reverse would be true).
 
@GordonM Oh, I don't care what you use in personal projects ^^ But if you are writing code for php.net you have to stick to the coding standard
 
9:23 PM
Anyway, aren't we drifting off topic a bit? I was hoping to get some feedback on what you guys thought of that as an exercise for a PHP beginner!
 
hehe I just love CS wars
 
@NikiC In that case I'll run "reformat code" on it at the point I submit it to there.
 
Heh
 
1 sec I'm trying out all the banned words... :)
 
Oh dear :)
 
9:27 PM
@PeeHaa Yeah, that was the best part of the example ^^
@GordonM <?php echo $_SERVER['SCRIPT_NAME']; ?> does not work
on viper I mean
 
It's meant to illustrate why you need to validate input without scaring people off.
 
is it safe to omit the action attribute altogether?
 
@NikiC What do you suggest instead? PHP_SELF can lead to... weirdness. php.about.com/od/learnphp/qt/_SERVER_PHP.htm
 
@NikiC mandatory
You can leave it empty though
 
@PeeHaa okay, then empty-value it
@PeeHaa That's what I meant ^^
 
9:30 PM
:)
 
Oh yeah, if the action is empty it should be okay, but it definitely does have to be there.
 
I just wonder whether it is x-browser compatible
 
@NikiC > @Dave - all the major browsers support it, but with so many out there it's very possible that this might trigger a bug in some browsers, and not submit or submit to the wrong page.
 
@NikiC stackoverflow.com/questions/1131781/… suggests it could be problematic
 
Post from 2007
 
9:34 PM
Oh yeah, didn't notice that :(
2009 actually.
 
11
A: Is it a good practice to use an empty URL for a HTML form's action attribute? (action="")

derobertActually, the Form Submission subsection of the current HTML5 draft does not allow action="". It is against the spec. The action and formaction content attributes, if specified, must have a value that is a valid non-empty URL potentially surrounded by spaces. (emphasis added) The quoted sec...

Damn you HTML5!
I hate specs :P
@Kerrick Yes, I believe HTML5 allows omitting the action attribute entirely, and defaults it to empty string. HTML4 did not, it specifies action as required. — derobert Jun 1 at 15:54
 
holy cr@p. This mac mini is SOOOO much faster than compiling in a VM
20 second full builds
 
how full is full?
 
--disable-all --enable-debug
:-P
 
@PeeHaa do you know by any chance, difference between node.js and using websockets with php?
 
9:36 PM
but full meaning from vcsclean
 
@ircmaxell ahh
I already wondered how you could do a full build in 20 secs ^^
 
@webarto nopez
 
@PeeHaa So not specifying the action attribute at all is the best thing to do?
 
@PeeHaa HTML4 always requires action but allows action="" (but it's flaky in some browsers) and HTML5 says you can omit action but if you do specify action it must have a value (and it's probably flaky in some browsers too). :(
 
fully scripted now
 
9:39 PM
@ircmaxell Newest generation mini?
 
@webarto Pain and death? (When using PHP)
 
@ircmaxell ONE OF US! ONE OF US!
 
./php-build master  -> /usr/local/php/master/
./php-build 5.4dev  -> /usr/local/php/5.4dev/
./php-build 5.4.0     -> /usr/local/php/5.4.0/
@CharlesSprayberry yup
 
@ircmaxell Yea, I have the generation right before that. It is pretty nice, especially giving the form factor and power consumption.
 
yeah
 
9:41 PM
@PeeHaa No, they can't.
 
@ircmaxell I am kind of curious though, you're running Linux on it right? Why not just buy generic hardware for Linux?
 
@NikiC from the spec:
 
@GordonM believe it or not, the mini was cheaper given that you're getting a desktop grade CPU
 
> The action and formaction content attributes, if specified, must have a value that is a valid URL potentially surrounded by spaces.
> The action of an element is the value of the element's formaction attribute, if the element is a submit button and has such an attribute, or the value of its form owner's action attribute, if it has one, or else the empty string.
 
@ircmaxell Nifty :)
 
9:42 PM
However as @GordonM noted we all know what user-agents do with specs
 
@NikiC I just can't figure out why, as I've accomplished task with PHP, only problem is if you run out of sockets I think :)
 
@webarto I never used websockets in PHP. But I imagine any async programming to be pain
 
But why ditch OSX? Not that I've got anything against Linux (I like it a lot in fact, it's mostly a lack of commercial support that puts me off it as a main OS), but you could have dual booted.
@webarto PHP is designed to service a single request and terminate. node.js is designed to run daemons. Right tool for the job. ;)
 
installing Jenkins now
 
@GordonM You should add a check for empty name though I think
 
9:45 PM
@PeeHaa Did I not have one? It's late and I could easily miss stuff like that.
 
@LeviMorrison k
ow wait nvm
:)
I stripped that stuff so I could run it in codepad and get all the bad words
 
@PeeHaa lnkpls
 
@PeeHaa if ((!empty ($_POST ['name'])) && (nameIsValid ($_POST ['name']))) Looks like there's a check in there already
 
2 mins ago, by PeeHaa
ow wait nvm
1 min ago, by PeeHaa
I stripped that stuff so I could run it in codepad and get all the bad words
@NikiC coming
 
@PeeHaa yeah, missed that while I was looking at the gist. nvm :)
 
So anyway, what do you reckon? I obviously need to write the actual tutorial to get from empty project to that code, but do you reckon it's a decent project for a php.net tutorial?
@PeeHaa That is so immature ;)
 
@GordonM That's what you get when you add a banlist to it :)
 
Took it off the wikipedia article.
It's meant to demonstrate the need to validate input in a way that's hopefully less scary than OMFG UR HAX'D!
 
You should write it as an example project and integrate somewhere in here in a way that most topics seen are coming back in that I think. Don't know what others have to say bout it
 
@GordonM I see everything as a nail :P
 
9:57 PM
@PeeHaa Will do, I'll try and draft up some actual tutorial text to go with, first.
Will also have to read up on collaberating with github. Not done any of that yet.
@webarto It would be nice if they looked into making PHP a bit more general purpose as something that can run daemons or other stuff that lasts longer than a single HTTP request. Maybe @ircmaxell is the guy to ask on that front though.
 
@GordonM what's that?
 
@ircmaxell Mostly thinking about PHP versus node (which is the right tool for particular jobs) and thinking it would be nice if PHP could do more daemony stuff rather than just request/response/exit stuff. (I know you technically can, but PHP isn't suited to it)
 
why isn't is suited to it?
 
10:08 PM
@GordonM How would make it more suitableß
 
@LeviMorrison much better
 
definitely much better
 
@LeviMorrison Nice.
@NikiC It's not great at Comet/Server push type scenarios.
That's one of the reasons why node.js is getting a foothold.
 
@GordonM Yes I know, but how would you improve it?
I mean, practically?
What features could one add to support that scenario more?
 
Alright well i'm shutting down and going home 2 hours early... So, see-ya later!
 
10:13 PM
@ircmaxell & @GordonM If the downloads box and the sidebar were moved to the left, do you think that would be better?
 
i want to make an array like $myarray =array("1"=>"a",
 
@LeviMorrison you mean floated left?
@GordonM because it's single-threaded. Only
@GordonM BS. If that was true, python would have grabbed a foothold a long time ago
 
@ircmaxell Instead of everything being on the right, it would look the same, just on the left.
 
they r in thousands, how can i put double quotes and => symbol
 
@LeviMorrison try it. I don't think it'll make much difference
 
10:14 PM
@NikiC I'd have to think about that when I'm less sleep deprived.
@LeviMorrison I'd be more inclined to push the sidebar and downloads to the right a bit, it does look a little like everything's crammed into the middle a bit. That's just me though.
 
@GordonM I actually salvaged 30 more pixels on the right side. For some reason there was always a padding on the right side but not the left. I was like . . . lopsided is no bueno.
 
@LeviMorrison I wonder if it would look a bit less cramped if the bar separating the "thanks to" section from the rest was as wide as the main content box only and didn't also span across the sidebar too
Also, while it definitely looks better without the technicolor sidebar, I would suggest that you make the "documentation" like stand out from the other links because I'm sure most requests to php.net are for looking at the manual.
 
@GordonM We're going to replace the Thanks To with logos. I want them to span across both sections.
 
@LeviMorrison ok
 
I'll probably add some more vertical spacing when I add the logos.
 
10:20 PM
@ircmaxell True enough
 
That won't help the 'crushed' feel to the content above it, though.
 
Speaking of sleep deprivation, I really should go.
later
 
later @GordonM
 
I hate PEAR
 
we should automatic response for this line
#css on freenode had one for "i hate IE"
 
10:25 PM
ARG
Beginning install...
Configuration written to /usr/local/etc/pear.conf...
Initialized registry...
Preparing to install...
installing phar:///home/ircmaxell/go-pear.phar/PEAR/go-pear-tarballs/Archive_Tar-1.3.7.tar...
installing phar:///home/ircmaxell/go-pear.phar/PEAR/go-pear-tarballs/Console_Getopt-1.3.0.tar...
installing phar:///home/ircmaxell/go-pear.phar/PEAR/go-pear-tarballs/PEAR-1.9.4.tar...
installing phar:///home/ircmaxell/go-pear.phar/PEAR/go-pear-tarballs/Structures_Graph-1.0.4.tar...
installing phar:///home/ircmaxell/go-pear.phar/PEAR/go-pear-tarballs/XML_Util-1.2.1.tar...
 
PEAR <3
 
$ switch-php 5.4.4
$ php -v
PHP 5.4.4 (cli) (built: Jul  3 2012 18:28:29) (DEBUG)
Copyright (c) 1997-2012 The PHP Group
Zend Engine v2.4.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2012 Zend Technologies
$ switch-php master
$ php -v
PHP 5.5.0-dev (cli) (built: Jul  3 2012 18:09:15) (DEBUG)
Copyright (c) 1997-2012 The PHP Group
Zend Engine v2.4.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2012 Zend Technologies
:-D
freaking pear. ignoring configurations
 
root@debian:~# php -v
PHP 5.4.0RC9-dev (cli) (built: Feb 26 2012 08:12:41)
Copyright (c) 1997-2012 The PHP Group
Zend Engine v2.4.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2012 Zend Technologies

:(
 
10:41 PM
bloody hell. This is ticking me the f#$@ off... Why the heck is pear resolving symlinks when installing
I told it to prefix to /usr/local/lib
but no, it had to prefix to the resolved php binary path instead
instead of the linked binary
 
$ php -v
PHP 5.3.5-1ubuntu7.8 with Suhosin-Patch (cli) (built: May  4 2012 00:50:15)
Copyright (c) 1997-2009 The PHP Group
Zend Engine v2.3.0, Copyright (c) 1998-2010 Zend Technologies
    with Xdebug v2.1.0, Copyright (c) 2002-2010, by Derick Rethans
And you thought you guys had it bad . . .
I'm on 5.3.5 . . .
 
@ircmaxell Just patch it ^^
That's the solution I usually use with PEAR problems
 
too much work
and it's too fubar
 
Jun 23 at 14:31, by tereško
well .. if you are not aware of it , under the hood, foreach runs on blood of sacrificed kittens
How right you were, @tereško
 
lol
 
10:53 PM
I'm realizing this more and more
I spent a lot of time today trying to understand a (small) part of the foreach implementation
I failed
It does a lot of very strange things
 
yeah...
 
yeah .. sometimes i feel that my limited exposure to php's source is a good thing
i sleep better not knowing
 
I'm going crazy
Going to watch south park instead
More pleasant than looking at foreach code
 
11:30 PM
@ircmaxell @NikiC @GordonM @rdlowrey @tereško Do you like the sidebar on the left?
The thinking was that the documentation pages use left-side navigation, so it is more consistent overall.
 
keep in mind that docs only has footer and header in common with landing page
 
nah, I like the right better
feels more fluid
 
two reasons for right side : for 90% of userbase it is easier to reach navigation in right side , and the structure was already tuned towards right-panel layout
 
@tereško . . . but then they have to switch to use the left-side navigation in the documentation pages.
I'm not saying it's better on the left, but it seems more consistent (read: more usable).
@tereško The docs pages still look fine.
 
here is one more reason
in this layout you get very jagged right side
 
11:38 PM
@tereško I noticed that as well, but counted it as a plus.
 
you have left-aligned text, and a solid panel , that create a tangible borders on both sides
here's the thing : php page should move in direction corporate design
 
If I just LOOK at the page, the right-sidebar is better. However, when I'm reading the articles or when I'm using the page as a whole, I like the left better.
The sidebar on the right negatively affects the reading experience on the article, but it looks much cleaner, I'll agree.
@ircmaxell By the way, is one week for voting the standard? It seems so short.
 
In effect it's restricted to biased users (ones who are aware of it because they're in touch with the author) and VERY active @php.net users.
Ah, 1 week minimum. I guess all the ones I've seen stayed open much longer.
@ircmaxell Do we have a proposed release date for 5.5 you are trying to beat?
 
not that I know of
Anyone know how to get clover (or some other standard xunit) output from core's run-tests.php? Would make reporting to Jenkins a lot easier.
 
11:52 PM
@ircmaxell You might want to look at how ci.qa.php.net does it
 
yeah, right now I'm dumping an output file from run-tests.php and parsing it with regex
but there has to be a cleaner and better way
 

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