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10:00 AM
Also gtranslate may fail pretty hard for some sentence structure
Also u jelly
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Its “controversy” section went AWOL
 
It was terrible
Understandable but awful D:
 
It was understandable
 
yeah, I never said it would be lyrical...
 
sbi
10:01 AM
Wow. We broke through the 80 users barrier.
 
Eu não falo Esperanto
 
@sbi Life expectancy?
 
@sbi holy shit.
I think there's a ton of inactive users though
 
According to some scientists, the first baby to "live forever" is already alive
 
Pubby is already from 11h ago
 
10:03 AM
Hi
 
@KonradRudolph That's Portuguese.
 
sbi
Mhmm. There's something fishy going on, though. Other rooms are just as full as we are.
 
yeah well shit.
 
Which is to say, when he reaches ripe old age, technology will extend his life just a little more, and a little more after that, until it exponentially increases so that he'd never die.
 
sbi
@rubenvb There always is. Usually 30 users is a lot despite that, though.
 
10:04 AM
Let's see if Tony reacts to porn.
or sex and titties.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Eu sei
 
You speak it? Or is this just Google-powered?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes My ex was Portuguese. Not that I learned a lot :p
 
Pubby already came in on a plain typo'd message mentioning him without Pling.
 
10:05 AM
(less hairy than their reputation :p)
By the way, the std::optional proposal lists alternatives but misses the most important one, in my opinion
 
@Konrad Ah, here are some human-readable details on what counts as fair use for Uncle Sam: eff.org/issues/coders/reverse-engineering-faq#faq9
 
namely, a potentially empty set (i.e. a singleton vector)
 
Optional conveys stronger semantics.
(And is stack based, but that's secondary)
@Fred "Printing the decimal part of a floating point number turned out to be quite easy. Printing the decimal part is harder:" I think you have a typo in your question.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes singleton std::array :)
 
@rubenvb That can't be empty.
 
10:10 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Of course, but the other alternatives are just as bad. And the singleton set actually corresponds exactly to how mathematics (and hence, pseudocodes) denote optional elements. It’s quite a powerful and convenient formalism
only inefficient
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I see.
 
If we end up with a std::optional that can't do references with assignment rebinding it, it will suck.
 
hmpf, there should be a visitor for std::optional, maybe using for (:)
 
@KonradRudolph hehe, you're late...
 
Been there, done that. Told you mine is better.
 
10:13 AM
… which is another advantage of using a singleton std::vector, the for trick just works
@LucDanton So did you propose it?
I also don’t like the other proposal’s use cases. find_biggest using an optional value looks horribly inefficient
 
sbi
0
Q: Very unusual amount of users in the chat

sbiThe C++ lounge used to have ~30 users logged in at a well visited day during the week. When I noticed this morning, it was >70 users, now it's >80. When I look at the list of rooms, there's two other rooms who have an incredible amount of logged-in users, which seems really fishy. Has there b...

 
@KonradRudolph No. It is true however that a competing proposal would be a better answer than trying to convince the author. He's aiming for a lo-fi interface here.
 
seriously, not impressed
 
@LucDanton lo-fi is a very polite way to put it. It is suck.
 
@sbi By posting that, you just invited more
 
10:15 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Well I did make an effort to pick the right word.
 
sbi
@Manishearth I very deliberately did not link to this room.
 
I mean, seriously there's people arguing for no references at all? No perfect forwarding at all? WTF, that's just forcing me to write mine.
 
hmm, it seems that the rooms don't clean out inactive users any more who don’t respond to ping …
@RMartinhoFernandes Where, what, when?
 
@sbi room>moderator>delete this room. Problem solved
 
@KonradRudolph On the mailing list?
 
10:18 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes What's the point of having a parallel optional<T&> that's not quite the same interface as optional<T> though?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How very specific ;)
(I don’t read the mailing list)
ah, you mean this here?
 
optional<T&> is pretty much a T* no?
 
sbi
@Manishearth Manishearth=>kicked-out=>Which problem?
 
@KonradRudolph Yes.
 
@Node Yes.
 
10:19 AM
@LucDanton What parts of the interface change?
 
sbi
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, 1 min ago, by balpha
maybe your rooming is increasing its fanbase :)
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No assignment at all. That's the proposal.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes optional<T&> t = someValue; now what happens if you assign to t again?
 
@Node That's not assignment.
 
@LucDanton Oh, right, but it should have assignment. And rebind.
 
sbi
10:20 AM
Oh, Anna followed my proposal to close John's question. Good.
 
To be honest I can't understand the other option (not rebinding) at all.
 
I provided an example where it bites you but it's still too contrived for my taste.
Someone else put it in very good words when they said that you don't want specializations to reduce the interface of the primary template.
Well that makes no sense now that you edited. I think.
 
sbi
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, 2 mins ago, by balpha
yeah, something is broken there
in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Overflow Chat, 2 mins ago, by balpha
people aren't being auto-kicked
 
by the way, Dave points out another crucial flaw in their proposal (non-uniform initialisation) … wouldn’t that be solved by simply not providing any default constructor?
 
10:23 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes You mean a = b having the semantics of *a = *b?
 
i.e. optional<int> x; wouldn’t compile
 
@sbi Ah, as I suspected :)
 
@KonradRudolph That was mentioned/suggested, yeah.
 
@LucDanton Damn, that thread is simply too long for me to read it all. But that sounds both natural and desirable. Default-constructibility is overrated in C++ anyway
 
10:25 AM
@KonradRudolph But now I need to always make a move or use quirky syntax for emplacement.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Which is fine, no?
 
Which one?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Either. Furthermore, can’t you emplace none?
 
> A rebinding behaviour of optional<T&>'s assignment would be incompatible with the assignment of tuple<T&>.
I don't understand.
 
@KonradRudolph I'm talking about filling it.
 
10:27 AM
Oh yeah, they're not the same.
 
@LucDanton std::tie(x) = 4;
 
I found the Clang-libstdc++ header incompatibility bug for Windows.
Yay for me!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, the optional? I thought you were talking about using it. What does it matter what the implementation of it looks like behind the scenes?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I suggested std::tuple/std::pair as examples of generic class templates that deal with reference types transparently. Yet I completely overlooked that the semantics of assignment is opposite to the one we want (same as Boost.Optional). Force of habit I suppose.
 
enjoy the following demostration of what Marc once dubbed "shaking the tree"
meh, it's boring without animation :)
 
10:29 AM
@KonradRudolph I'm saying that you need a way to emplace construct a T on it. How do you propose to do that?
@balpha Didn't see anything.
 
I wanted to see fireworks :(
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Eh, initialisation and assignment? What’s wrong with either of optional<int> x = 42; x = 23;?
 
@KonradRudolph Think of Ts!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes a lot of users where kicked at once. That looks pretty fun if it's animated, but when the room is too crowded, we don't do animation anymore
 
@KonradRudolph Obviously it looks fine with ints.
 
10:30 AM
I don’t get it then … optional<T> x = some_value_ot_type_T;?
 
sbi
@balpha So will you now and for all eternity walk through all the rooms and shake the tree, or will the chat do this by itself again and let you sleep at nights?
 
or optional<T> x = T(); if T is default-constructible
 
@KonradRudolph But that doesn't emplace.
 
@KonradRudolph I think he means in the case where T is neither copyable, moveable or default constructible?
like std::vector::emplace_back
 
@sbi we'll see...
 
10:32 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes Ah, got it. But does this change when we make the type default-constructible?
 
@Node It can be all that and emplace is still useful/desirable.
 
ah fuck, now I see it
 
@KonradRudolph How do you emplace-default-construct a T?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes yeah, i was trying to narrow it down so its easier to understand what was meant :)
 
sbi
@balpha Oh, a very philosophical answer indeed. Please don't forget to answer my question on meta, so I can accept your answer.
 
10:33 AM
I shall
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Ok, next question. Is this case relevant? Do we often need a default-constructed T inside an optional?
Or can we just say that that’s an edge case that merits using a special function?
 
Dunno. I'm weary of adding warts to cover edge cases, though.
 
And more importantly, could we make it compile? I.e. would optional<T> x = default_instance<T>(); work (and emplace)?
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah, no - can't do that. People in chat are dangerous enough while shooting nouns at each other. I cringe when thinking what they'd do with bottle rockets. — Tim Post 3 mins ago
Haha!
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes, I understand that
@RMartinhoFernandes Also, you’re probably wary rather than weary ;)
 
10:36 AM
Dammit, I can't get one right today.
@KonradRudolph That one has different requirements: it requires a movable type.
 
Presumably default_instance<T> is a tag type.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Fine by me. :) But yes, I get that that’s a problem
 
sbi
Movable type is the system of printing and typography that uses movable components to reproduce the elements of a document (usually individual letters or punctuation). The world's first known movable-type system for printing was created in China around 1040 A.D. by Pi Sheng (990–1051) during the Song Dynasty; following that, the first metal movable-type system for printing was made in Korea during the Goryeo Dynasty (around 1230). This led to the printing of the Jikji in 1377—today the oldest extant movable metal print book. The diffusion of both movable-type systems was, however, limite...
 
@LucDanton Oh, actually possible but now what I meant. Clever
 
10:39 AM
You don't need a <T> then.
 
@sbi Well, C++ is that good. It re-invented movable type. The most important invention since the wheel.
 
It's already on the type.
 
Oh suuure, you Germans invented it all centuries ago…
 
Oh man, ?: discriminates between xvalues and prvalues. std::common_type is going to be a headache.
 
@LucDanton What do you want to do that makes xvalues look like prvalues but not lvalues?
 
10:40 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes: The true sign of a spoiled child... — sbi 8 mins ago
@sbi what do you mean?
Can't an adult enjoy fireworks?
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes "Ah, that one. Was expecting some with more colors. And sound."
 
What is a scratch register generally used for?
 
How's that a sign of a spoiled child?
I think that's normal to be expected of fireworks.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter "The world's first known movable-type system for printing was created in China around 1040 A.D. by Pi Sheng (990–1051) during the Song Dynasty"
 
Are fireworks different in Germany, perhaps?
@ManofOneWay Registering scratches, duh.
 
sbi
10:42 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes I was sooo waiting for that.
 
Come on
=)
 
@sbi I can't be bothered to read the entire article, sheesh. Germans invented the press etc. I have an eye infection. Bah.
 
@ManofOneWay It's just like using scratch paper. You use them to do your computations but don't give it any important role.
Once you have the results, you toss the paper in the garbage.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Is it for storing temporary values kind off?
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Obviously, you cannot even be bothered to read beyond the first sentence. (The one I quoted was the second one.)
 
10:44 AM
@ManofOneWay Yeah.
 
@sbi Nope. Those guys you mentioned were probably mostly German anyway. Song dynasty… probably from the Catholic era.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Are there any benefits of using a gpr as a scratch register?
 
@sbi I'm way too predictable.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Algorithms are deterministic.
 
@ManofOneWay As opposed to what?
 
10:45 AM
@Potatoswatter Not using any scratch register at all
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Yeah, in fact I have a Catholic neighbor named Pi Sheng Schmidt. I think he's just invented black powder.
 
In the x86_64 architecture, there are no scratch registers, only one register that is recommended using as one.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Not using a gpr as a scratch register?
 
I thought x86_64 had tons of registers.
 
8 general purpose ones IIRC
 
10:47 AM
It has, but I thought a scratch register has a different purpose than a gpr-register?
 
It's not register starved, but 16 is still fewer than most RISCs.
"Scratch register" can mean different things.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik That's x86.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, it's register tonnage is truly gross.
 
In some architectures, "scratch register" is just defined as one that isn't preserved across function calls.
 
@sbi Did you know that term or did you google it?
 
10:49 AM
Or it might mean "accumulator register" because that word is too long.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes Wish you had our associative memory, don't you?
 
For example, in a register allocation algorithm, one wants to store values within a register for as long as it is live. But a scratch register might be used for just one instruction, as a temporary register, for example when loading an imm to mem, (imm -> scratch -> mem)
 
Or it might be a register with relatively limited usage, for example some instructions read it as zero.
 
But maybe I'm wrong
 
@sbi I think I have a pretty good associative memory.
That's why I can cook up great keyword sets for queries.
 
sbi
10:50 AM
@RMartinhoFernandes For a robot, you're impressive.
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah, but for cooking rice you need us to hold your hand. :)
 
sbi
Oh, I just realized the neighbor's last name should have been Krause. That might have freaked out the @Potatoswatter, though.
 
Is Krause German for potato?
 
Hehe. But he would have to be Jewish too.
 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Oh well, I'm afraid a Catholic Jew would have been rather hard to come by in my neighborhood.
@RMartinhoFernandes No. ("Kartoffel" means "potato".)
 
10:53 AM
Really? No 1200 year old Chinese Catholic Jews on your whole street?
 
Your word for oil is our word for beer; öl.
 
sbi
> Krause ... is a common German surname — fourth hit at google
 
0
Q: Compiling Java Generics with Wildcards to C++ Templates

gexicideI am trying to build a Java to C++ trans-compiler (i.e. Java code goes in, semantically "equivalent" (more or less) code comes out). Not considering garbage collection, the languages are quite familiar, so the overall process works quite well already. One issue, however, are generics which do no...

 
sbi
@Potatoswatter Yeah, not a single one. I admit I live in a rather strange neighborhood.
 
@Pubby Oh gawd.
 
sbi
10:55 AM
@ManofOneWay Only you write the "ö" funnily.
 
Hehe "more or less"… at least it's still in the spirit of Java.
 
How do you write it?
 
möre umlaut
 
@Pubby Ha, I knew I had seen that guy before.
0
Q: C++ Casting between template invocations

gexicidesuppose X<T> is a template class taking a class as parameter and A and B are classes with B being derived from A without involvement of multiple or virtual inheritance (i.e. no pointer adjustments necessary when casting between A and B). is it safe to perform a chainsaw reinterpret cast fr...

 
sbi
@ManofOneWay Ah, you're from Sweden, so you write it "ö", too, don't you? Is it just the Danes that write it with a slash?
 
10:58 AM
I don't think that guy understands C++
 
I do yes, ask @jalf about the Danish version, but I believe it's ø kind of
 
It's like he's trying to maximize the most danger from the least knowledge.
 
sbi
@Pubby Of course he doesn't understand C++. How else do you think he could stand dabbling in Java?
@ManofOneWay Right, I didn't know how to make this with my German keyboard. I think the Norwegians are using this one, too.
@Potatoswatter I also tripped over is it safe to use chainsaw reinterpret cast? That's like asking "could it cause permanent damage if I cut my head off?"
 
@sbi Why do you have the nasty double s? Where does that come from? Why not write "ss" instead?
 
Not fancy enough.
 
sbi
11:02 AM
@ManofOneWay It's a ligature of (old German) "sz", actually, although nowadays it's usually substituted by "ss".
In the German alphabet, ß (Unicode U+00DF) is a consonant letter that evolved as a ligature of "long s and z" (ſz) and "long s over round s" (ſs). Like double "s", when speaking it is pronounced (see IPA). In standard spelling, it is only used after long vowels and diphthongs, while ss is written after short vowels. Even though long s (ſ) has otherwise disappeared from German orthography, ß is still used as a ligature and is replaced by 'SS' or 'SZ' in capitalized spelling. Its German name is Eszett (, the lexicalized expression for "sz", from "s-zed") or scharfes S (, "sharp S"). Whi...
 
I see
:)
 
Is it ever easily confused with B?
Or did I say something incredibly stupid just now?
 
It looks a lot like a beta
 
sbi
@Neil Yes, a lot. By furriners.
 
furriners
 
11:10 AM
I guess that makes me a furriner
 
sbi
A furriner.
 
I always thought it was a Greek beta
 
100 users it is
 
Merkins are furry.
 
sbi
@RMartinhoFernandes ROTFL!
 
11:12 AM
Le Sigh
lunchtime
meal loading
 
Bon appétit
 
Ty
 
sbi
@Neil I think I know exactly how that happened to you, because it happened to me, too, the other day. :)
@rubenvb Greek letters usually look pretty italic in print here. Also, they are used mainly in math etc., where there's no umlauts and ß in use.
 
For a long time, it was common to write "beta" in versions of Macintosh software with the eszet. It's conveniently typed as option-B, among many Greek letters.
 
How'd you get a beta?
 
11:18 AM
Command-Shift-Option-B?
 
macfags!
 
Wut, I'm not a Macfag.
 
I just type \beta and be done with it.
 
I was just making shit up.
 
If it's no Word or Latex, I use wiki to copy-paste it.
 
11:21 AM
You faggots have been saying fag a lot recently.
 
sbi
Damn, I'm trapped at Wikipedia.
 
@Pubby Fagfags.
@sbi Hehe :P.
 
Oops, it's option-S. There is no beta, hence the confusion. @sbi, "Africa alphabet"? For a symbol representing a click? Remember your beers, IPA makes tongues happy!
 
11:32 AM
 
When you keep clicking the second link on Wikipedia articles, you always end up with the article on philosophy.
 
I ask you, what is 4532=?
 
@rubenvb 0
@rubenvb or 1, if triangle is a circle
 
That one has been posted here at least trice.
 
11:34 AM
oh, well, There's no 4's
So you can't know
it's indeterminate
Conclusion: it's a sucky puzzle
 
I'm hungry.
 
and I wasted my time on it.
 
Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan is a great movie.
 
@rubenvb the hell is this
 
@Cicada the hell it is what is?
 
11:38 AM
Lulz
Some Wikipedia readers have observed that clicking on the first link in the main text of a Wikipedia article, and then repeating the process for subsequent articles, usually eventually gets you to the Philosophy article. As of June 05, 2011, 99.99% of all articles in Wikipedia lead eventually to the article Philosophy. The rest lead to an article with no wikilinks, links to pages that do not exist, or get stuck in loops. There have been some theories on this phenomenon, with the most prevalent being the tendency for Wikipedia pages to move up a "classification chain." According to this th...
 
is there even a logical connection between those numbers
too lazy to think
 
@Cicada of course. Just get pen and paper. Start with the simple ones
There's just no "4"
 
@Cicada it's about the number of closed lines. 8 is two, 1 is zero, 0 is one.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik "the number of closed lines"?
 
the number of closed lines?
 
11:40 AM
no, you can deduce the value of a number by example
each number has a value associated.
 
you mean on a LCD display?
oh i got it
 
so 1111=0 gives you 1->0, 0000=4 gives you 0->1, 1120=1 gives you 2->0.
 
4532 would be 0
 
@Cicada THERE'S NO FOUR!
You can't possible know
 
Depends on how you define closed line
 
11:41 AM
there's no closed line
 
there is no spoon either
 
I can write four without a closed line
bam
 
That would be 5.
Image not found.
 
12:16 PM
Wow. Community has automatically fixed links to git documentation on kernel.org (broken since the security fail there). Pretty neat:
 
12:33 PM
That's awesome.
 
Afternoon
 
Strange fellow
 
Hey cool I didn't know MongoDB shipped with a web interface.
 
Me neither
What's it look like?
(cue: crap)
 
12:35 PM
Crap, yes. :P
 
Pretty shitty indeed. But it worketh, which is the main deal
 
People y u make ugly GUIs.
 
because it's easier than making non-ugly HUIs
 
Hexapoda with all the blue and tickets makes me think of airports and aircrafts.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Because one day, damnit, someone will WANT to know that the Darwin Kernel Version is 9.8.0!
 
12:49 PM
Information is irrelevant to beauty.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik I disagree. Simplicity makes a simple interface.
 
They could put that information in a table.
 
If such detailed information is important enough to make available, it should be hidden behind a tiny tiny button.
 
Not a single line of space-seperated key-value items, in monospace font.
 
@RadekdaknokSlupik Well in that I'm in agreement. I never said that was the only thing wrong with the layout.
 
12:52 PM
MongoDB y u ginormous IDs!
 

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