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00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

6:37 PM
I'm disinclined to dig them out right noqw
 
user1804599
gah erlang ports are so bad
 
user1804599
PortInfo = erlang:port_info(State),
OSPid = proplists:get_value(os_pid, PortInfo),
os:cmd("kill -TERM " ++ integer_to_list(OSPid)),
 
user1804599
:V
 
> "ça m'a un peu marqué" dans le sens ça t’a peu marqué ? ou ça t’a plutôt marqué ?
efficient written communication in French
 
Interesting... what experiences with / opinions on Maven, Gradle and other build tools do Loungers have?
> I've been following Maven for years, I wrote most of the books on it. These days, I'm much more interestedin Gradle, SBT, and Rake.
 
6:49 PM
I used SBT in uni (and by "i used" i mean the TA setup the Scala homework to use sbt and i compiled it using that)
I think though, that I may have used Maven through IntelliJ IDEA at some point though?
 
> ant saved us from make
> maven saved us from ant
> gradle will save us from maven
> and something else will, eventually, save us from gradle
140
A: Why does Maven have such a bad rep?

Kevin PetersonI looked into maven about six months ago. We were starting a new project, and didn't have any legacy to support. That said: Maven is all-or-nothing. Or at least as far as I could tell from the documentation. You can't easily use maven as a drop-in replacement for ant, and gradually adopt more a...

> According to the documentation, Maven is transcendental happiness that makes all your wildest dreams come true. You just have to meditate on the manual for 10 years before you become enlightened.
2
wat
 
7:05 PM
@fredoverflow My main gripe with Maven is that it's XML with a complex structure, but most of the answers on SO just post a part of their code so I have no idea in what context is this part valid under (that is, under which parent node should I paste this)
...or, if they actually post an entire pom.xml file, I have no idea which parts of the file are relevant to the problem
 
user1804599
Maven is declarative and good.
 
only build system I've seen that's even vaguely good is Gulp
and that's kinda stretching the idea of build system I guess
they seem to be the only people who have noticed that when writing programs, it's usually best to do so in code
 
user1804599
TIL the Belgian king is a criminal.
 
user1804599
Belgium features compulsory voting but he doesn't go vote.
 
user1804599
@Puppy lol
 
user1804599
gulp is awful
 
7:59 PM
it's nice
I want to write a program to build my application -> I write some code that builds my application
gulp just streamlines things
the getting started page on Maven is far from encouraging- it looks like both a build system and a package manager?
 
@Puppy correct
 
blech that's dumb
 
@Puppy there's plenty of build systems out there that use, e.g., Python or Ruby.
Say, rake
CMake counts too, I guess, even though it has a shitty custom language.
 
shitty custom languages don't really count
 
8:15 PM
CMake's language is just a "regular" imperative language with shitty syntax
 
I rank unreadably shitty syntax as a definite disqualification
 
8:36 PM
hello all
got a code problem
what is wrong with this?
according to the boost docs, I think it should compile?
"The overloads accepting only a visitor return a C++03 compatible generic function object or C++14 compatible generic function object that accepts either one, two or arbitrary count of arguments and invoke apply_visitor using these arguments and visitor, thus behaving as specified above. (This behavior is particularly useful, for example, when one needs to operate on each element of a sequence of variant objects using a standard library algorithm.)"
 
9:00 PM
wait are you passing void to doSomething
also since when boost::apply_visitor is one-arg
oh ok
disregard my ramblings
 
9:13 PM
I don't understand why some guys in my band don't want to let people listen to our music on the internet for free.
 
@Morwenn Ask them to explain themselves?
 
@wilx I never got a decent explanation.
Which is why I requested that we discuss the problem the next time the whole band is together.
At first it was because some people who contributed to the kickstarter only paid for the digital version of the album, so it was unfair to let people who didn't pay listen to it for free so soon.
Fair enough, but it's been 2+ months since then.
 
Ell
@Puppy not sure really
There is a lot of overlap
Build system needs to find dependencies in order to build, package manager knows where dependencies are and if they need in stalling
 
that.. is not a lot of overlap at all.
the package manager produces dependencies, the build system uses them
completely different matters
 
@Puppy That's rather narrow POV.
 
why?
seems clear to me that "Download this shit from the network and check versions" is a different thing to "Invoke this random executable on these files"
 
@Puppy The model you are proposing/describing is what Apache And + Apache Ivy is. It is clear that Maven integrating both the build system and the artefacts management is superior.
 
it is?
doesn't seem at all clear to me
 
@Puppy Lot of things aren't, I observe. :D
 
9:37 PM
you might want to offer some actual logic to back up your argument there
 
Ell
@Puppy it's not just downloading stuff
 
@Puppy Well, you claim no overlap, "completely different matters". Isn't there an overlap if when an artefact is produced it is stored in a repository so that other builds/projects can use it?
 
Ell
99% of the time you need to run a script
 
With the degree of separation that you are describing this is much harder, IMHO.
 
Ell
Be it an install script or a build script itself
 
9:40 PM
@wilx No.
 
3 mins ago, by Puppy
you might want to offer some actual logic to back up your argument there
 
@Ell I could also run a script to log in to Gmail or run a script to infect my PC with malware or run a script to write a suicide note. That does not couple those things together.
@wilx One system produces an output and the other system stores something somewhere.
the fact that in some cases that thing might be an output of another system is irrelevant.
and your build output might or might not get stored somewhere
frankly when arguing for super coupling for things that could be completely separate, burden of proof should be on the person suggesting coupling the things together, not the other way around
a simple example of how build scripts and install scripts are completely unrelated is that build scripts are idempotent and run all the time, whereas install scripts are environment-modifying and run once
(also fuck install scripts but that's another matter)
 
@Puppy Dude. I have given you an example of overlap. You said it was not an overlap but you failed to support your non-overlap hypothesis in any way. I.e., I did my work giving your a proof by giving you an instance where the functions overlap, you failed to falsify the proof.
 
um
simply asserting that they overlap is not proof of any kind.
the only interaction you have suggested is plain composition which does not require any coupling of the two systems to achieve.
 
@Puppy I did not just assert, I have given you an example of the overlap. You are just ignoring it.
 
9:48 PM
you haven't detailed in any way exactly how they overlap in this situation
you simply said "They overlap"
that's just a plain assertion
 
@Puppy OK...let me dumb it down to you: Maven produces a .jar file by compiling some Java code, it then installs the .jar file into a local Maven repository that it maintains. This artefact is then available for "linking" by other projects that will be built in the same execution of Maven build.
If this is not overlappy enough for you then nothing will be.
 
there are no elements of a package manager in that system.
"Build java into .jar, .jar is available to use in other builds"
great job build system, where's the package manager?
 
@Puppy the package manager produces dependencies, the build system uses them <-- I have just described this with different words.
 
things that you are building yourself are not dependencies
they're your project.
but even ignoring that for a moment, gulp/msbuild/whatever can also do that exact same thing, so there would be nothing different or unique about Maven.
 
@jaggedSpire this is true of course
abraham lincoln was also just a group of koalas
 
10:01 PM
@Puppy Individual parts/modules/packages/jars/etc. of the application depend one on another. Maven just uses the same abstraction for dependencies that you are building in your source tree and dependencies that you are getting/downloading from elsewhere.
 
yes, but that's fucking dumb because they're completely different things.
 
Is this video blocked for anyone else in the US?
 
dependencies I download from elsewhere I want to download pre-built and keep a copy in my repo (see leftpad for why)
 
@Puppy FFS, @Puppy, stop being you for a minute and think!
@Puppy Maven does that.
 
10:02 PM
Maven can commit to my repository?
does it start invoking git?
 
no
In this context, "repository" does not mean "source control repository"
it means "dependency repository"
 
@Puppy No, it is not dumb. It is actually pretty awesome that Maven integrates both the build system and the package management. The fact that these can be separate does not mean they cannot be integrated as well.
 
well, I agree that it's clear that they can be separate and they can be integrated
the question is whether integrating them is stupid or not
for my internal dependencies, for instance, I always want to use the latest version whereas my downloaded ones have fixed versions.
and they have completely different setups in terms of being versioned in git or not
 
@Puppy The final executable depends on the source code in your project, no?
 
@Puppy You know what is stupid? Making judgements without knowing enough which is exactly where you are now.
 
10:07 PM
well, I have used dependencies before, you know
 
Study Maven, use it for some time for your JVM based languages code, learn it.
 
well, I wouldn't use JVM based languages because they're JVM based languages, for one thing
 
so what are you using Maven for?
 
I'm not
it was a question that was linked previously about why Maven has such a bad reputation
I'll go with "You have two things that I want to treat completely differently and then you want to pretend they are the same"
 
oic...didn't go far back enough in the trascript
 
10:10 PM
think that our industry does not do enough rejecting of things because they conceptually make no sense whatsoever
like Webpack.
 
Some of the answers in the thread are very old. Maven today is not Maven then, IMHO.
 
I mean
even if you were to decide that you wanted to treat internal and external dependencies the same for some reason
there's still no reason to use the package manager as a build system
 
@Puppy But Maven does make sense, IMHO.
 
you would just invoke your build system of choice from the package manager to build the internal ones.
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: Who let the Puppy out? [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
 
@Puppy The reason is that integrated as it is in Maven it works very well.
 
10:42 PM
ah pupsters
sup
 
supsters
 
not much, thought I'd say hi
 
Hi :)
 
Hi :)
 
Well, actually I'm going to sleep, so bye too ^^'
 
10:44 PM
bye
 
<3
 
@TonyTheLion Not much, playin some gaems
 
ohhh geams are fun
 
10:50 PM
I have the impression that alt-left and alt-right both betray themselves through over-use of UNICODE/emoji. How does that work
@Veritas more like Hana is cool, there
Also, I don't think I'd concur. It's only "cool" compared to c++11 shenanigans required to achieve similar things.
But it's still the sign of a broken compile-time meta-language.
It's that the optimizing-compiler game of C++ is so good, but the expressiveness of the language itself lacks
 
11:06 PM
Hi
 
Hi
 
So I made a lab session about the rule of 5. Memory stuff. I get this dudette bringing in std::allocator. Sometimes my work is really fun.
 
lucky you
 
std::uses_allocator, std::scoped_allocator_adaptor and friends :)
Stateful allocators... the works
And mix that with overloaded operator new/delete
 
11:19 PM
=)
 
...I did it.
I found it.
I found real pizza here
 
@sehe At least to me, "broken" implies that it can't be used at all. In reality, C++ TMP is ugly and clumsy, but can be used if you want to badly enough. Being fair, Hana is enough better than older C++ techniques that I think calling it "cool" is reasonably fair, even though there's certainly room for a huge amount of improvement.
@jaggedSpire Real pizza where? I always preferred complex pizzas, myself.
 
I prefer matrix pizzas
 
@JerryCoffin St. Louis
 
@JerryCoffin Well. At the very least, the necessity for Hana somewhat spells how C++1z is still not cool in that particular sample :)
 
11:26 PM
@JerryCoffin Complex pizzas? Is that where the imaginary pizza tastes way better than the real pizza you end up with? :P
 
Almost every pizza place here will give you a soggy cracker with a four-cheese blend called provel when you ask for a pizza
and I found a New York style place
The world is beautiful right now
I'm so happy
the pizza famine is over
 
@jaggedSpire Why would you look for pizza in St. Louis? Don't you realize you should eat ribs?
 
@jaggedSpire authentic? with kids in the basement?
 
@JerryCoffin alas, I am vegetarian
@sehe heh
 
@jaggedSpire I believe that's curable, with early detection.
 
11:28 PM
@jaggedSpire Real American Pizza Gate
 
@JerryCoffin It's too late for me, I think. I've been one for twelve years now.
 
They've made a lot of vegetarian versions of meats, but I don't think vegetarian ribs exist yet.
There's a business idea for someone.
 
Presumably someone who remembers what real ones taste like :V
 
You've got veggie wings made from cauliflower.
 
Those are tasty
 
11:31 PM
so I've heard
 
@Kayaman dafuq o.o that cant possibly taste the same
 
@sehe Let me rephrase: "cool" is relative. Compared to C++03, it's pretty darned cool. Compared to languages that were actually designed with meta-programming support in mind, yeah, it pretty much sucks.
 
@Borgleader well it's not like chicken meat has a very strong flavor, it's all in the sauce and the spices...you just need to imitate the teeth-feeling
 
@JerryCoffin Precisely my point
 
11:42 PM
are you accusing Jerry for using your exact point without your consent?
 
I'm having some vegetarian whisky.
 
Beer then liquor, never been sicker. Liquor then beer, have no fear.
 
If it only were so simple ;)
 
11:57 PM
@CaptainGiraffe aw bad vid sync
 
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