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12:03 AM
@fredoverflow Have only used it on the side, managed to avoid it mostly
 
The Government said it was also getting closer to being able to slow the population growth of kangaroos with contraceptives.
dumb humans & their attempt to control the little world
next time try successfully eradicate all the cockroaches
 
or the emu
The Emu War, also known as the Great Emu War, was a nuisance wildlife management military operation undertaken in Australia over the latter part of 1932 to address public concern over the number of emus said to be running amok in the Campion district of Western Australia. The unsuccessful attempts to curb the population of emus, a large flightless bird indigenous to Australia, employed soldiers armed with Lewis guns—leading the media to adopt the name "Emu War" when referring to the incident. == Background == Following World War I, large numbers of ex-soldiers from Australia, along with a number...
 
yes, there are many animals, I don't see any need to cull them
creatures like emus and kangaroos are here way before humans
yep, take their land then kill them, f*cking dumb humans!!!
 
> I don't see any need
well. there you have it
 
12:17 AM
Also IncrediBuild FreeDev Premium costs $1500. At a glance this doesn't sound very free.
 
It's free premium
 
ITS NOT FUCKING FREE
4
 
better than free, also...not free
maybe it's free as in speech?
 
btw if anybody got a few extra copies lying around send me some ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
I spend all my budget at work on a fancy computer case
 
wise people always have wise wishes ... opposite is also true >_<
 
12:20 AM
It cost $1500 to free a dev for a week without everything blowing up
 
@Mikhail "you're free to pay us $1500 to get this product"
 
(actually maybe they mean free as in freelance)
 
user1804599
@Veritas No, it's worthless.
 
user1804599
It's a C++ revision that did more than deprecate and remove cruft, therefore it's a bad C++ revision.
 
@Mikhail Does that mean freelance devs arent free either?
 
12:33 AM
I wrote them an email asking if they want to "sponsor" my research work with a free copy...
 
That image is a pretty low quality reply, because the "free" item wasn't free back in 1980
 
@Telkitty that belongs in a museum
 
a picture worth a thousand words, a low quality image worth a thousand low quality words ...
simple multiplication ...
 
@Mikhail Sounds like a fair deal. You mention their product to your community, maybe explain quickly the benefits not found in the free options, and get a copy in return.
 
12:45 AM
@Telkitty Nonsense. Even the wisest people are basically idiots most of the time.
 
@JerryCoffin Does that mean if I'm an idiot, I am wise most of the time?
 
@Columbo Sorry, but no.
 
@JerryCoffin What am I then, if I'm an idiot?
 
Also if I occupy more time than you, am I more wise, simply by occupying more time?
 
What's my bonus?
 
12:47 AM
@Mikhail In fact, (especially if you take inflation into account) it was probably much more expensive than the one on the right.
 
@Columbo Implies. It doesn't work backwards; not commutative.
 
@Aaron3468 "Most of the time" is not an implication, it's a distribution.
 
@Columbo Wise even less of the time, obviously.
@Aaron3468 A statement implies its converse but not its inverse.
(at least if memory serves, those the names they give to things).
 
I meant the statement's logical argument, Columbo. But yeah, you hit it Jerry. Your statement uses implication to say "wise people => usually idiots", which only implies the converse "usually idiots = wise people".
Something like that, I haven't taken a course in formal logic, so I may conclude that I'm only partially correct ^^;
 
what if someone has a variable IQ ... like the IQ's standard deviation is much greater than everyone else?
 
12:52 AM
@Aaron3468 No, that's implying causation from correlation.
 
correlation => causation, but not correlation = causation?
 
@Aaron3468 Dude stop trying
You messed up
 
@Aaron3468 correlation certainly doesn't imply causation
 
virtually never
 
No. Just never.
 
12:54 AM
Not sure about that one
 
It can happen simultaneously, but even then one doesn't imply the other.
 
Depends on your definition of implication
Propositional logic's will be fine with it
 
Gah. The correct definition (especially in the context of causation vs correlation, duh)
 
@sehe So causation is a coincidence in any case where correlation exists? You've just put statisticians out of a job and proven that it's a math, not science.
 
@Columbo Do share.
@Aaron3468 That's reversing the logic. To say "correlation doesn't imply causation" is not equivalent to your strawman "correlation implies no causation"
 
12:57 AM
The only difference between causation and correlation is that in the former somebody supplied a model.
 
Honestly though, I'm really fascinated with logic and its relation to sound judgement because it's a fundamental thing. A thing which I don't entirely understand.
 
Oh yeah, I didn't realize we were going full Cinch getting philosophical. But yeah. Any knowledge exists in a model. So, yeah. Models are involved. (Models verify the knowledge)
 
@sehe Of course it does.
Of course those people drowned themselves after seeing Nick cage movies.
 
Implication would be when one thing being true (the correlation, in this case) leads to the other thing (causation) being true without any other requirements.
@JerryCoffin oh lel - I should have known
 
@JerryCoffin or Nic Cage acts in more movies after noticing more people drowning
 
user1804599
1:02 AM
Hi @sehe also still awake
 
Of course
 
@sehe Did you honestly believe that I didn't know what "implication" meant? I realize I only went to 'Murican schools, but even so I managed to learn that much. :-)
 
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
 
Whoa, so then the colloquial meaning of 'implication' is entirely different from its meaning in logic. It behaves more like a single ended if?
 
user1804599
XD
 
1:03 AM
@JerryCoffin Erm. Honestly, I was preparing to be humbled again about my misunderstanding of English :)
@Aaron3468 I don't think so. Only for Cinch misguided people :)
 
user1804599
@Aaron3468 :humans:
 
@JerryCoffin When I took those advanced math classes in school, the word, "imply" is fucking loaded. It's one of the few cases where I prefer the English definition.
 
@sehe If A and B positively correlate in a model with domain {0, 1}, then (by a sensible definition of correlation), {{A=0, B=0}, {A=1, B=1}}, which also satisfies the biconditional of A and B.
I was obviously not talking about the real world.
:P
 
user1804599
@Aaron3468 Many people understand "if A then B" as "if not A then not B".
 
user1804599
And also "if not B then not A".
 
1:05 AM
@Columbo ?? I think implication is: a=>b : {A=0,B=?}, {A=1,B=1}. Nothing more
 
user1804599
a -> b = !a || b.
 
^
 
That's true
So (positive) correlation entailed implication, both ways even
 
@rightfold That can mean a number of things depending on context. What are the types of a and b?
 
.-. I long ago gave up on knowing anything with certainty because pinning down precise definitions always proves wrong somewhere else. So I go by intuitive understanding, long discussions, and consumed articles/informative sources.
 
user1804599
1:06 AM
@Mysticial This is logic, so it's clearly the opposite of C++.
 
@Aaron3468 lol that's bullshit
 
@Columbo Just that the sets of valid values overlap, does not indicate a relation.
 
user1804599
If God is omnipotent, can He create a stone He cannot lift?
No. Ex falso quodlibet.
 
@sehe ? Just because if A is 1, B must also be 1 does not satisfy the definition of logical implication except it does? What?
Relation != implication
 
user1804599
@Columbo False implies false.
 
1:07 AM
@rightfold Oh, that's fair. So "if A then B" can yield {A=0, B=1} and {A=1, B=1} and {A=0, B=0} in a system with only 0 and 1, but people assume the {A=0, B=1} isn't possible
 
Stop your straw man
 
user1804599
@Aaron3468 yeah
 
@Aaron3468 Certain things can be known. It's important to know which and how.
 
@Columbo I think there's some confusion. If you have a closed system where ALL mappings in the domain are known, THEN you can summarize implication in that way. However, the "correlation != causation" mantra ALWAYS applies to empirical situations where the full domain cannot be tested (and varies over time or other - unknown - factors), and you CANNOT summarize thusly
 
For instance, it cannot be known what a women thinks of you.
 
1:08 AM
Because you don't know what other empirical findings refute it
 
user1804599
false implies true shows correlation != causation
 
user1804599
true is always true, regardless of anything else
 
@sehe Sure, but you did not preclude such closed systems, which is why I felt obliged to point it out. :)
 
@Columbo If you don't want to discuss it, you're free not to.
 
1+1 can be known, but only in the limited field of basic arithmetic. The moment I speak to people who've studied the topic deeply, I find out that 1+1 is indeterminate or has meanings outside of mathematical operations. For example, it makes an excellent robot emote :)
 
1:11 AM
@Columbo Erm. Nobody entered these artificial constraints. And we were very much talking about statistical examples.
 
@sehe I never said that. I just wanted to clarify that relation and implication are to vastly different things. "I drink a bottle of Whiskey" -> "Donald Trump will be president" may hold under classic logic's implication, but there is no actual relation between these two in the real world.
 
So that's kind of why I assume what can be known is very limited :(
 
@sehe I wasn't.
 
4 mins ago, by Columbo
Stop your straw man
Means just that
@Columbo Oh well. Who's to blame :0
 
user1804599
In human language, if two things are mentioned together, people assume they are related.
 
user1804599
1:12 AM
Because if they aren't why would you mention them together.
 
@sehe No, it means I don't want you to prove your original point by using a straw man, because the particular straw man is completely trivial (of course correlation has nothing to do with being interconnected)
 
user1804599
:humans: are like that, heuristics everywhere.
 
@Columbo Well. That's not a straw man. If anything, it's a straw man to suddenly say I stated that in the realm of closed, formal, systems.
 
@sehe It is a straw man to me, precisely because I misinterpreted your statement's domain.
Let's forget about it and have some beer.
 
Oh. Funny world when misunderstandings imply a straw man of the conversation partner :) o.O SCNR
@Columbo Cheers :)
 
1:17 AM
Cheers! :)
 
かんぱい! 🍻🍻
 
still waiting ...
but luckily I am on laptop
 
Unlucky for us, since you're still in chat
 
This room needs more Garfbert
 
catbert vs garfield
~hiss hiss meow meow~
 
 
1 hour later…
scary
 
@Borgleader that doggo has done me a frighten
 
@jaggedSpire Blep
 
@Morwenn Blep with us :P
 
does anyone on here have experience with linux?
 
yes
 
have you ever used arch?
 
well not very much but how itl be any different
 
I have been using it on and off for a few months but I don't feel I'm learning a lot about linux from it and it's just frustrating me and I want to move back to something simpler like Ubuntu maybe
but my fear is that doing this will stunt my growth and I should stick to arch
 
3:27 AM
@jaggedSpire lol, holy crap. is it hyperactive or is that a sped up video?
 
@qaispak im not very sure of it! but i would suggest you read a book it should definitely be easy
 
That seems about normal ferret speed
 
4:21 AM
/cc @Borgleader @TonyTheLion @Ven @Xeo
 
@Borgleader Ferrets are predators--specifically, most of them in the wild live on venomous snakes. I guess you can argue about whether the selection involved is "natural" or not, but in any case, for many generations, slow ferrets have had exceedingly short lives (though many also have a fairly high level of immunity to snake venom, so getting bitten isn't necessarily a death sentence for them either).
 
@qaispak You really don't need arch. Mint is a pleasant middle ground of customizability and ease of use. Ubuntu is a bit too easy for my liking, but is still very linuxy. Unless you write drivers, most of linux is config files an apt-get. The rest is usually hardware stuff you can learn on any platform
I never really understood why beginners feel the need to tackle the hardest challenges first. Start small and easy, go from there as needed tbh.
 
4:47 AM
@qaispak I'm a big fan of Gentoo, all packages built with the features I want. Plus its got really good tooling for setting up gcc tooling for cross compiling to targets like ARM. Also unlike Ubutnu, I can fix a broken Gentoo install.
 
5:10 AM
I can fix a broken Ubuntu install by reinstalling it, duh
(see: Windows)
 
I can fix my windows by reinstalling ubuntu?
 
or vice versa
 
6:18 AM
Yeah, but reinstalling sucks if you spent a long time configuring a custom server. Gentoo is nice, I know exactly whats going on. On binary distros you get a ton of different version of the same library.
 
6:35 AM
Also who the fuck let localtime in time.h have its own buffer.
 
Dec 21 '15 at 20:14, by milleniumbug
C standard library was designed by deranged monkeys on lsd
I'm guessing "C couldn't return structs at the time", but that's still a very poor excuse
maybe @JerryCoffin will know more
 
6:54 AM
@Mikhail If memory serves, it once didn't (it modified globals instead). Lots of people have tried to clean up time handling, but most have failed horribly (many end up worse than what they intend to replace). It's a can of worms that almost nobody on any standards committee wants to even think about opening.
 
Is it an accuracy issue that it's given a buffer?
 
7:22 AM
I believe some implementations generate the buffer on-demand, so its not clear if it is threadsafe.
In a dystonian universe, back when memory spaces were flat, before memory protection, it could have returned a pointer to some structure in OS memory?
 
Oh, that can be a problem... Is there a way to guarantee that the OS/other programs won't mess with the localtime?
 
should say dystopian (somehow not in the FF spellchecker)
 
I only point out errors if they're funny or I hate you <3
2
 
 
1 hour later…
8:34 AM
 
you know that hair covers your wrinkles
this is a bald cat
this one is with fur
 
that is a dog
 
 
1 hour later…
9:50 AM
@milleniumbug Does "modern C" code return structs a lot?
@rightfold My old tool boolsimp agrees:
$ a ? b : true
!a || b
 
!a | b for the premature optimalists
 
What if calculating b is expensive?
 
I'm assuming it's just a variable.
But if b is expensive then yeah, that's gonna be bad.
 
Also, what if b is an integer? Then you get a different result type ;)
 
hey performance/correctness tradeoffs are made all the time :P
 
user1804599
10:11 AM
@StackedCrooked Ugh strict evaluation
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow In return f() && g();, g() is a tail call. 😀
 
@rightfold Easier to see if you translate the code to:
if (!f()) return false;
return g();
 
So I'm trying to parallelize one of the open-sourced modules in my Pi program. But I just realized that my concurrency library is absolutely massive along with a fan-out of dependencies on other closed-sourced parts of the program. Fuck.
And the parallelism routines available in C++ and OS calls are hardly sufficient. Which kinda explains why my concurrency library had become so large in the past few years.
 
Just spawn 63 new threads and let them spin in infinite loops, so the CPU usage goes to 100%? ;)
 
10:29 AM
@Mysticial tbb?
 
@Puppy It's not that simple. The concurrency library already has an interface that in which I can throw whatever library at it I want (std::thread, Cilk, TBB, WinAPI thread pool, etc...)
 
nwp
@fredoverflow I hate when people are so wrong that even I notice it.
> Scientists call this an illusion of knowledge.
No they don't, they call this a symbol.
 
The problem is that thing that I'm trying parallelize needs my resource-matching algorithm. This sort of thing doesn't exist in any parallelism library and is somewhat specialized to my program. That's the thing that is huge and has tons of dependencies.
 
@nwp I dunno, I simply loved the silly bike drawings :)
> In his famous project Velocipedia, Gianluca Gimini pushed it even further. he asked different people to draw a bicycle and then created 3D-models, based on their sketches
rofl
 
nwp
10:46 AM
@fredoverflow btw you are still pretty famous in UHH
 
@fredoverflow That actually looks like one of the better ones- I think it could turn, and it has pedals/etc
might be very uncomfortable to use but I think it would actually work
 
@fredoverflow Hmmm...."Why you should never ask a developer to fix your bike". Perhaps, having made my living as a bicycle mechanic for ~3 years, I'd qualify as an exception to that rule? :-)
 
11:01 AM
@nwp What do you mean? Also, do we know each other? :)
 
nwp
@fredoverflow There is a chance that I got it all wrong, but I think my gf listens to you every week for 90 minutes for software-entwicklung I. But no, never seen you in person.
 
11:15 AM
> We found that the light colour is the main factor influencing the crossing behaviours of pedestrians
 
user1804599
@Mysticial Use Chapel.
 
nwp
why do other people have nice signs while I'm stuck with !=?
 
user1804599
@nwp Ligatures.
 
this wouldn’t happen to you with the lemony cleaning power of Vim
 
nwp
11:24 AM
@rightfold oh, so changing the font would fix that. I should try that.
 
hmm
rendering textboxes is kinda annoying
 
well
I rendered some text, then the caret and then some text, but it turns out that rendering two pieces of text right next to each other is not the same as rendering the concatenated text in one go
so when you click in different places to set the selection, the position of the characters changes
looks like I will need to add dedicated support for "Render this random shit at this place in the text"
 
js/web?
 
directwrite
 
nwp
11:38 AM
neat
 
for some reasons I read that as result.SourManager
 
11:51 AM
@Borgleader I was probably sleeping and drooling at the time of your message, but there probably wasn't any blep involved :p
 
hm easier than expected
although the caret doesn't blink ;p
and you also can't select ranges or actually type into the box
 
as long as it’s text and it’s in a box I say job well done
 
Love Singapore,... It's such a fuxcking innovative city
 
well arguably, it's the caller's responsibility to actually render a thing the user might perceive as a box
 
nwp
@Morwenn that's just puppy scewing the average
 
I removed the context, but those are stats about positivity in GitHub commits.
 
@Morwenn but we have been mean to everyone including ourselves
 
@Telkitty Yup, including yourself :p
 
12:36 PM
@nwp Is the average hot? If so I'd happily screw her
now all I need to do is figure out how to tell the difference between clicking in the text box, and trying to drag-select in the text box
 
@Morwenn You can blep now if you want :P
 
@Borgleader I've got plenty of fetishes, but I'm not really into blepping.
 
12:52 PM
do I even want to know what blepping is
oh not terrible
our previous dog used to do that a lot
 
1:04 PM
An apple a day can keep anyone away if you throw it hard enough.
 
nwp
An Apple a day drains your bank account really fast.
 
I think you mean, "an apple a day"
 
nwp
yes, sorry, fixed
I wish you could add the size to forward declared objects. Something like struct Foo sizeof(int, int, std::string);.
 
nwp
1:17 PM
guess that would lead to too much code duplication
 
too much of a risk you forget to update it
 
user1804599
1:33 PM
> Tycoon Simulator
 
2:04 PM
Hi, does anyone know about mailing lists, particularly gcc mailing lists?
I'm not so familiar with them and wanted to know how to participate, like do I just send an email to the said address - gcc-help at gcc dot gnu dot org?
 
user1804599
I want to learn signal processing.
 
2:20 PM
learn fourier transformation, that's the basic
 
nwp
2:30 PM
The next step in my project is writing tests. I feel like quitting because that is just so painful.
 
user1804599
@nwp It's not if you have referential transparency and quickcheck.
 
user1804599
Then it's fun and makes you discover properties.
 
nwp
I don't have any of that.
 
user1804599
hahahahaha RIP
 
Hi mom
 
2:42 PM
hi dad
 
Doesn't work like that uncle
@nwp let the code test itself
 
3:02 PM
My DRs for LWG were finally taken into account /o/
 
\o/
 
@Morwenn Oooo! I am impressed. What DRs?
 
@wilx One about clarifying whether standard library implementers are allowed to split a free function with a default argument into two overloads.
Another one about a missed optimization opportunity when std::next and std::prev take a single argument.
 
@Morwenn I see. Interesting.
 
@Morwenn wooo performance!
 
3:11 PM
@Borgleader Basically only if you call std::next(it) on an std::deque iterator .____.
But I don't like gratuitous pessimizations D:
 
3:28 PM
first ride of the season - check! :D
 
nice pic bartek
 
nwp
3:40 PM
So to have tests I must rip apart my project file and create a library that both the test application and the actual application use. This is ridiculous.
 
@JohanLarsson thanks
 
user1804599
4:41 PM
@sehe
 
user1804599
Today's date in ISO format, 20170219, is a prime.
 
Today's date in ISO format would be 2017-02-19 = 1996 x)
 
Oh god, there's so much garbage on stackoverflow.com/questions/201992/…, would anyone mind casting a couple of deletion votes?
 
4:59 PM
holy hell
 
@KerrekSB done
 
Thanks :-)
 
 
1 hour later…
6:26 PM
In the middle of his speech, Trump brought one of his supporters right up on stage! This was awesome!!!… https://twitter.com/i/web/status/833093718554996736
^ Man, Trump is a pro at playing people. Also, he must be nightmare for the Secret Service protection.
 
@wilx haters./. gonna hate.:P
 
user1804599
@wilx Scripted.
 
@rightfold like WWE lol
 
@rightfold I can believe that. That's why I said he is a pro at playing people.
@rightfold OTOH, from a video of the event, the Secret Service guys did not know and tried to stop him.
 
nwp
libc++'s <experimental/filesystem> is basically empty, no std::copy_file for me
 
6:47 PM
I just remembered that I didn't even submit the two library DRs.
I guess that I'll just stop using it for C++ stuff.
 
nwp
@Morwenn what is "it" in that sentence?
 
@nwp Haha, I forgot « with my real name » at the end of the first sentence ^^'
I'm a special kind of dumb.
 
7:03 PM
@Morwenn I expect a DR for that sentence. TIA.
;)
 
@Borgleader ç_ç
I can't English.
> Also there is problem that distributions can not be instancioned with char
> instancioned
 
I well remember that guy who wanted to implant AES
 
user1804599
7:32 PM
There's an instruction to count the number of set bits right?
 
Not enough context.
 
@rightfold nope
 
7:48 PM
@rightfold popcnt or something
 
8:12 PM
@wilx doesn't he have his own private security team?
Or did he back down on that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I have no idea. Can he even do that? I think Secret Service must be required by law to give him protection regardless of what he thinks.
 
@wilx maybe he has both. Around the inauguration he has insisting on keeping his people around, but I dunno what turned out.
 
@Abyx Did you bother searching for "popcnt" on that page?
 
8:40 PM
I popped your mother's cnt
 
@Puppy I never would have pegged you for going after the great grandmothers of the world.
 
heh
couldn't really come up with anything better
 
9:00 PM
Writing a C++ compiler in C++.
 
this looks like autofellatio
 
9:23 PM
@Nican Well the C compiler is written in C so
 
@JerryCoffin yes.
 
user image
3
:)
 
user1804599
9:42 PM
aaah wtf Go
 
Compiling itself is a big milestone in languages. It shows that it's possible to make massive projects in the language. Whether it is practical or even that you'd want to is a different story.
 
should the nail be a thumb?
 
For example, Rust has a fully compatible self-hosting compiler, but D doesn't
 
10:00 PM
@Aaron3468 I disagree.
compiling yourself shows that you like to rewrite codebases over language differences and your FFI is shit
 
I agree on those counts, but I don't see negation of my statement
 
if you're trying to demonstrate that you can host large projects, you might want to pick one that doesn't scream how inadequate your language is
 
user1804599
 
@Puppy Of course you would...
 
Ven
@rightfold why.
 
user1804599
10:05 PM
@Ven Because I need FFT in PS.
 
Ven
:(
 
user1804599
At least its interface is typed. :)
 
user1804599
foreign import fft64
  :: ∀ r e
   . STUnboxedFloat64Array r
  -> STUnboxedComplex128Array r
  -> Eff (st :: ST r | e) Unit
 
user1804599
:(
 
@Puppy Well yeah, the end goal is to have large projects with easy integration for dependencies. A self-hosting compiler is one of the first non-trivial projects a language can take on before it can host FFI or a standard library.
 
10:07 PM
should be able to host both of those things long before itself
 
In computer science, bootstrapping is the process of writing a compiler (or assembler) in the source programming language that it intends to compile. Applying this technique leads to a self-hosting compiler. An initial minimal core version of the compiler is generated in a different language (which could be assembly language); from that point, successive expanded versions of the compiler are run using the minimal core of the language. Many compilers for many programming languages are bootstrapped, including compilers for BASIC, Algol, C, D, Pascal, PL/I, Factor, Haskell, Modula-2, Oberon, OCaml...
 
10:23 PM
@rightfold ugh
 
user1804599
:'(
 
user1804599
awesome
 
Ell
I need to get in on these lenses
I've heard great things
 
nwp
10:50 PM
they are less good with contact
 
user1804599
11:02 PM
yay I can find gradients I'm so happy
 
11:21 PM
Non-powered archives are the future of data storage
 
11:39 PM
What's the easiest language+framework to write a simple web service?
 
I've use django and Tomcat, I liked Tomcat more because I rely on type safety reduce units test...
 
Amazon has been claiming to come to Australia for 5 straight years ... and still not here
seriously after ebay & aliexpress, amazon can claim much of a market share here?
 
11:54 PM
@Shoe Flask or Django are good.
 

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