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5:00 PM
@Aaron3468 The largest struct I've ever made was on the order of 40k. And even that is large enough where I can't safely put it on the stack.
 
@Mysticial Haha, heap space then?
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah. std::make_unique.
Or actually, an aligned version of make_unique.
The reason why the struct is so big is because it has a bunch of 64-length arrays of SIMD vectors. So for the larger SIMD sizes, it's really big.
 
5:16 PM
@Mysticial Oh wow, and the vectors can't be put in a file because they're dynamic? Or is it related to the platforms your code runs on?
I suppose it could also be a speed issue if you're accessing them all the time
nvm, that's a stupid question ^^;
 
I wasn't exactly optimizing for size, but rather "flatness". The struct is a "stub" for a much larger (virtual) data-structure that that has power-of-two sizes. 64 is the limit of 64-bit.
It's complicated.
So I decided to inline all those arrays rather than have std::vectors with aligned allocators everywhere.
The other reason is that the struct needed to be trivially destructible. So it couldn't have any RAII.
 
Okay, I'm getting a better understanding now. The larger data structure would (broadly) be allocated space and you needed a very efficient way to manage, navigate, and sort data into position before actually committing it to the HDD/device/pipeline.
Ah, okay. Now that I've looked up what an SIMD vector is, I can see what you were doing. Very impressive!
 
Kinda yeah. If it makes it any easier to visualize, the struct represents a set of arithmetic-like sequences. These sequences are always lengths of power-of-two or small multiples of powers-of-two. The first element of the sequence is the "generator" that is stored in the struct itself.
When the sequence has been computed and cached, you get the value you want directly from the table. Otherwise you go to the struct and multiply together the appropriate combination of generators to get the element you want.
This is all done with SIMD width granularity.
 
So then it's a (very high efficiency) dynamic compiler/composer for SIMD instructions!
 
5:31 PM
Kinda. The whole algorithm is designed around a native "word" which is the SIMD vector.
 
And I presume the Pi algorithm is kind of built on top of that and fetches/modifies the data it needs as it goes through the pipeline
 
The Pi algorithm itself is at a much higher level. It sees nothing of the SIMD itself.
 
> Thanks to the shrewd detective work of /u/sariel007 it seems this story is completely fabricated and the Boston Leader is a fake website created last week.
 
Okay, so then you've got one of these composers for each instruction set (or extension) available, and then a wrapper that chooses the right one and passes it to the pi algorithm
 
@Aaron3468 I wouldn't call it a composer. There's about 5 or 6 levels of abstraction between the SIMD-aware layer and the Pi algorithm layer.
 
5:34 PM
I'm beginning to understand exactly why you need 350kLOC ^^; That's a massive undertaking for one programmer
 
Much of the low level code is written like this: github.com/Mysticial/Flops/blob/master/version2/source/macros/…
But with templates instead of macros.
Actually in most places, it's not even templates, it's concrete functions over a vtype which is typedef'ed to one of the SIMD types.
vadd and other operations are merely wrappers over the native intrinsic.
 
The complexity for that is probably very close and probably a bit beyond making a C++ compiler. D: I feel really sad that you need to find errors in it now. It's almost easier to be debugging the platform before you even start looking inside of that
 
So for each processor, I provide the typedefs and the primitive functions. The high-level code is all written generically to handle any SIMD width.
Some amount of specialization is needed for cross-lane operations within the SIMD vector. But those are intentionally designed to be few and far between.
 
I see. I can definitely see how you can use that for a stability test of OCs. It practically squeezes out every optimization possible between the hardware and the algorithm level. With the failures you're getting, it's extraordinarily likely that you've pushed the hardware to limits that cause it to fail proper operation xD
 
Going up 5 levels of abstraction, you see only BigInt, BigFloatand similar objects. There is no concept of SIMD anymore. But there are other things like parallelization and memory management which don't exist at the lowest levels.
 
5:43 PM
So uh, I think the next thing you'll need to add is some sort of temperature and/or speed regulator for systems that are too fragile to operate at their stated limits
 
@Aaron3468 lol
 
@Mysticial Yep. Keep it up and you'll need a full-blown OS to run your program without hardware failures under load. Unless you can get failures consistently on the same test, that's the problem; you reached the absolute limits of the hardware. I think congratulations are in order!
Now you can start a new career as Intel or AMDs QC specialist :D
 
lol
TBH, my SIMD-agnostic approach isn't optimal. As you have no control over the register allocation or the scheduling. You need to drop down to assembly to do that.
That can squeeze out another 20% if you game the execution pipeline well enough. But I've decided long ago not to pursue that.
That's where I draw the line. And that's why Prime95 runs hotter when it fits in cache.
 
@Luc you linked me this privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~patrickp/Courses/10slxaxioms.htm a while back and I keep going back to it, and #8 irks the hell out of me. Have I asked you before what you think of it?
 
5:57 PM
I don’t remember
 
@Mysticial At which point it's an OS xD As I say, you've achieved something I highly doubt anybody else has even come close to. You've found hardware and OS failure modes in modern architectures
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You better like all languages.
 
@Borgleader Hot damn. Even when I purposefully serialized things at runtime, the performance is still amazing.
 
@LucDanton I'm asking you now then :p
 
I’ve always taken these to be operative statements rather than any sort of truth
because the alternative would lead to more headaches
 
6:01 PM
@Mysticial Pretty much the only remaining way to disprove that hypothesis is if you can, without modification, get your code to fail in exactly the same tests >90% of the time
 
@Aaron3468 As far as code-generating codes, I won't be surprised if what I have is probably one of the best in the world. But it's not gonna beat out hand-optimized assembly. But I'm not actually the kind of person who will write 100k LOC of assembly for every processor.
 
@user2296177 I've actually grown more and more neutral since I moved to Germany because so many of the people I interact with have a bias to discuss language (because they're learning German or English) and they're universally terrible at it.
 
@Aaron3468 My suspicion right now is some sort of memory-related UB that only manifests with a non-deterministic memory allocator that only my laptop's installation hits. But even that is very unlikely.
The unit tests constantly allocate and free memory. The main computations don't. They allocate once and hold onto it until everything is done.
And it's only the unit tests that are affected.
 
@LucDanton I just feel that #8 is the odd one out in the sense that it isn't IMO at a level of applicability similar to the others.
Trouble putting my feeling to words
 
nwp
@nwp yay, they fixed it
 
6:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I’m not seeing it. Esp. in the view that all that matters in linguistics is how speakers, well, speak.
then again I think 'bias' is kinda weaselly/nebulous here
 
@Mysticial Yep. If you can make or use a good linter to hunt known C/C++ memory UB in your unit tests and rule out that possibility, then the only possibility remaining is that you've found new UB in the OS or the hardware's memory
 
I mean, does it apply of I say "I hate the German case system"?
 
@Aaron3468 I've done that. My allocator has over/under-run checking. And they don't report any of the boundary cookies being overwritten. Which is what I'm puzzled.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What's wrong with Blaise?
 
6:08 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes my attitude towards bias in general (i.e. even outside of the context) is that there’s probably no way to know for sure either way
 
The only thing left is some sort of uninitialized data.
 
I know obvious examples where #8 applies, but I feel the way it is phrased is too vague/general
/r/linguistics seems to agree with me in singling out this specific one
 
considering all the mean, petty things I’ve read I prefer it as a cautious baseline rather than the alternative where it’s not
 
Either way, I am relieved that the May release didn't fail. Because 1) that's the one that's in production. 2) It means something recent in the program directly or indirectly is causing the failures.
 
That's a fair way of looking at it.
Hmm. That actually makes me feel better about it.
 
6:11 PM
for me that also applies to things like point 6
 
@Mysticial So now there are two hypothesis left to test; yours of uninitialized data, and mine that you've found a way to overload the underlying platform (probably during unit tests) to the point that it fails read/write properly.
 
on an emotional level I like point 6, but I’d have a hard time making a serious case for it
 
But it's a relief that this problem only occurs at the absolute utilization limits for the cpu and memory, and is non-deterministic; even on the affected branches, you can alleviate the problem by reducing utilization.
 
I guess the problem with #6 is the implication of intent.
implication
 
@ThePhD Woot!
 
6:15 PM
But languages can act as codes that identify members of ingroups
 
Hmm
 
yeah as with talking with anything systematic it’s difficult to put it into words that doesn’t sound like blame or even conspiracy making
 
And it's not unusual for such to happen, and not always education institutions
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol that would be your go-to for point 6?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's true, but I do think they've failed to prove there are not cases where the bias is only about the language; that is the direct contradiction to their axiom and does seem to occur among academics (though the axiom may hold true for the general population)
 
6:17 PM
@LucDanton it's phrased in a very generic manner
Shibboleths
 
just seems a bit… roundabout
 
none of them are true "axioms"
 
myself I’d pick orthography, we expect so much of so many for so little with it
 
@LucDanton the example I have in mind is disdain for people with strong accents.
 
@Aaron3468 Assuming the repro time stays under 30 min. I should know by the end of the week what the problem is.
 
6:18 PM
"Talks like a redneck" kind of thing
 
For example, I'm not a huge fan of how English does not capitalize Specialized Terminology in order to clarify that it is not being used in a general sense of the words. That hardly means I'm biased to people, especially since I am an English speaker
 
@LucDanton ah yeah, that's a good marker too.
 
But the repro time goes gradually goes up as I narrow in on the revision that did it (if a sequence of optimizations steadily increases stress and decreases stability), then it might be impossible to pinpoint it.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's probably the best example of what they mean
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes for all the evils of French education I actually think that’s not one of them, at least as limited to my experience (to explain why that seems somewhat far-fetched to me)
 
6:20 PM
@Shoe we discussed that yesterday if you're interested
 
@Mysticial That is true, at which point you'll need calculus -- limits in particular -- to estimate which one or two commits caused it
@Mysticial But anyways, good luck in this! You've been doing well and I have to go
 
i.e. it happens so much more outside of education
 
@LucDanton I experience that when I travel south in Portugal and speak in my natural idiolect.
@LucDanton oh yeah, agree completely
@Aaron3468 also you don't prove axioms. Once you do, they're not axioms anymore
You can argue that it's not self-evident that it holds true, but that's different than asking for proof
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fair point. I think it's important to understand the content of what they say (due to the fact that there is relatively easy contradiction if the words are taken for face value).
 
Actually #6 is already better formulated as #7
 
6:27 PM
Every single fucking time I hear about Quebec in any kind of French publication, someone mentions our "accent". I mean, why the fascination?
 
Come on, your accent is horrible.
:p
 
Mine is, yeah. But that's happen when you grow up in a small town filled with douchebags driving tuned up Honda Civics.
 
What's the possessive form of y'all?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you remember approximately at what time? :3
"y'all mine"?
 
@Shoe the counterpart of "your"
 
6:29 PM
@Shoe Not too long afterwards there was a map about wine consumption. Turns out Italy doesn't drink that much.
 
No idea, it was supposed to be a joke in my head, but I don't really see it anymore
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes o'all?
 
yesterday, by R. Martinho Fernandes
Curious where the idea that Nordic countries are the most suicidal comes from.
@Shoe starts there
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes 'yer'. Usually the singular possessive 'your' is also used in the plural possessive. 'yer' = 'your'/'you're' with an accent.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I would be surprised. In Veneto (northern region of Italy), according to the ministry of health or whatever there are way too many alcoholized people and younger generations drink way too much
 
6:31 PM
@ThePhD My proudness counter overflowed <3
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes On that note, I'm fairly sure it's about daytime. The north is darker and that makes people depressed.
 
Maybe in southern regions they don't drink at all, which kind of evens things out
 
@Aaron3468 I'm hoping it won't be as bad as the stackoverflow bug back in 2010. That one took a month to fix and took out a few sticks of ram on the Japanese guy's server. It was a deterministic bug that had a 4 day repro time on his machine, and 8 days on mine. And required 3 TB of disk.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Thanks
 
Nordicity is the degree of northernness. The concept was developed by Canadian geographer Louis-Edmond Hamelin in the 1960s based on previous work done in the Soviet Union. Hamelin's point was that northern territories – like northern Canada – cannot be identified based on a single criterion, but that there was a continuum based on a number of natural and human factors. Hamelin developed an index he called Valeurs polaires (Polar values) or VAPO, where the North Pole had a VAPO of 1000. The nordicity index had 10 natural and human components: latitude summer heat annual cold types of ice total...
 
6:32 PM
@Mysticial lol
 
your/you're are not homophones in my idiolect
@EtiennedeMartel the map shows more of an east/west gradient.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I was talking about the idea. I know people don't really kill themselves more in the North.
 
Plenty of people are "nightowls" and aren't depressed. I challenge that idea.
(I.e. show me data)
 
My guess is the myth comes from a prejudice about the "cold, dark north".
 
@Aaron3468 That one wasn't funny. We were "just about" to Pi for the first time. And preliminary testing at 500 billion digits blew up.
But it was definitely a good learning experience. It also validated all the work I did to keep the program deterministic even though it's threaded.
 
6:34 PM
As someone who lives in a northern country, I can tell you: buy a better coat you peasant.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not in mine either to be fair. I pronounce 'your' as 'yore', and 'you're' as 'yew-er'. But when I speak in the accent of this region, both 'you're' and 'your' become 'yer'
 
It's not hard.
Also, cold doesn't exist in Europe until you get to the Arctic Circle. So, there.
 
@Mysticial :) If it's a bug in your code, the problem is many times more complex than that. Occam's Razor strongly suggests you've finally reached a point where the hardware cannot physically keep up
 
@Aaron3468 There were two bugs. One of which was my fault, the other is up for discussion. The one that was my fault was an oversight when porting the program to 64-bit. The struct array of 64 elements thing that I mentioned earlier was 32 on 32-bit. But I forgot to extend the size to 64 during the port.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Toronto is warmer than both Moscow and St. Petersburg
 
6:41 PM
So at 200 billion digits or higher, the size was large enough where the stub ran pass the 32 elements and corrupted the stack. But it didn't crash until 500 billion digits+. That one was obviously my fault.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, but nobody gives a shit about Toronto.
It's a city-shaped ghost of mediocrity.
 
@EtiennedeMartel it's where people live.
 
The other bug was that there was a function that needed 2k of stack. I call it 10 times in a recursion of logarithmic depth. The Intel Compiler inlined all 10 calls so the caller needed 20k of stack. At 500 billion digits, the recursion went in 34 levels which was finally enough to blow out the stack.
 
No one lives "in the cold"
 
It's where boring people live.
 
6:45 PM
Juxtaposition
 
And in any case, Montreal, which is an actual city where non boring people live, is colder than both Moscow and St. Petersburg
 
@EtiennedeMartel Is Toronto the place where you almost have to be a millionaire to afford to live there?
Maybe I'm thinking of Ontario
 
@caps That's Vancouver.
Toronto is where you have to take drugs in order to enjoy life.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ah, that sounds right.
 
Well played
I'm drunk
 
6:51 PM
Spoken like a true Portuguese.
 
lol
 
@Borgleader This question makes be cringe in two ways. 1) If a "t-bit" is thing, then I cringe at not having ever heard about it. 2) If it isn't a thing, then I cringe at what the OP is on:
-6
Q: Can anyone please explain how a t-bit bitmask has 3^t submasks in total?

harsh vardhanCan anyone please explain how a t-bit bitmask has 3^t submasks in total ?

 
@EtiennedeMartel And this is even before we learned about brown fat!
 
@Mysticial obviously a t-base digit is a tit
 
@LucDanton I googled that.
I got a lot of nice Birds.
 
7:02 PM
and probably some flying things, too
 
Is this how it feels to get outsmarted? I can live with it
 
Xeo
Wanna see something fun? Today we ran across this code in Unreal:
union { float F; uint32 I; } F2I;
F2I.F = Distance;
Depthbits = ((-int32(F2I.I >> 31) | 0x80000000) ^ F2I.I) >> 16;
can anyone guess what it does (aside from breaking strict aliasing rules)?
 
@Mysticial it's not a "t-bit"
It's a "t-bit bitmask"
As in "a bitmask with t bits"
 
Xeo
s/t/n/g
 
7:05 PM
@Xeo No idea
 
Xeo
Wait, it's not breaking strict aliasing, but normal union rules.
Well, too late to edit
 
F2I.I >> 31 is either 0 or -1, right?
 
Xeo
@fredoverflow ye
 
@fredoverflow lol
 
Wait, I is unsigned, so it's either 0 or 1?
And then it's negated, so then it's either 0 or -1.
 
7:08 PM
we're extracting the magnitude here I think
but why
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh... I got fooled by the 3^t.
 
The or turns 0 into 0x80000000 and leaves -1 as 0xffffffff.
 
Xeo
@fredoverflow oh yeah, the whole part is either 0 or -1
@fredoverflow yep.
 
@fredoverflow Delicioso.
 
abs of something then?
 
7:09 PM
So the xor flips all bits if the msb was set, or it just flips the msb?
 
Xeo
it's basically (Distance >= 0 ? 0x8000000 : 0xFFFFFFFF), except less branch-y
 
And then the shift by 16... weird. What's so special about the higher 16 bits of a float?
Isn't it 1:8:23 or something?
 
Xeo
it just cuts off precision
(Depthbits is part of a larger 64bit packed struct)
 
I still don't understand the point of the xor, what does it do exactly?
 
Xeo
We poured over it for an hour, because I just seemed so... weird.
 
7:11 PM
Wait... are you telling me that piece of shit isn't commented?
 
Xeo
yep
no comment at all
 
so we're exploiting the property of floats that except for the sign, you could sort them reinterpreted as integers
that would explain the depth bits
the xor part is probably the sign fixup
 
Why not simply sort based on the float value?
 
Xeo
It basically guarantees the result value for positive Distance is larger than the result value for negative Distance (and also flips all bits for negative Distance)
here's the FUNction in its entirety:
(>> 17 for the first occurence because that one is only 15 bits in the packed struct, dropping some more precision to make place for the bBackground bit)
 
no comments, 0/10
 
7:15 PM
@Mysticial Yeah I saw that, idk what OP is on about either
 
Xeo
Here's the rest of the context:
 
@milleniumbug NaN/10, where NaN stands for Naughty Notation
 
no comments, NaN/Infinity
 
Xeo
The fun part is: Distance is guaranteed to never be negative.
 
Xeo
7:16 PM
It's passed as (Bounds.Origin - ViewLocation).SizeSquared()
 
^^ I find this hilarious.
 
@fredoverflow how could I miss this opportunity :/
 
Xeo
So that code contains some pretty obsolete bit-manip shenanigans
 
@milleniumbug You could still use -Inf
 
Xeo
and I think I just found a bug
notice how in the function DrawingPolicyDistance is never used
And F2I.F = Distance; is done twice
 
7:18 PM
@Xeo How do you input stuff to 16?
 
Xeo
unused parameter warnings, they're good for you, people.
 
@Xeo Maybe the unused parameter is actually used via pointer arithmetic on neighbor parameters? ;)
 
Xeo
nah
 
that would be ub
 
ub stands for uber, right?
 
7:21 PM
@wilx I thought feminism was about doing what you wanted regardless of gender roles? If she stays in a shitty relationship with a lazy asshole, it's her choice. Feminism changes nothing there.
 
@fredoverflow UB it is a jewish creature like the Golem.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Feminism enabled the role reversal that is apparent in her and her spouse relationship. IMHO. She is the husband and he is the wife, figuratively. And she does not like it.
 
@wilx But it's not feminism. It's the same shitty gender roles, only reversed. Same shit, different smell.
Reminds me of these women who said they didn't want feminism because they wanted to stay at home and raise kids. But feminism allows that. Feminism just doesn't want that to be the only possible option for a woman.
She's saying she doesn't like her current situation, but she's blaming external causes.
Hell, if she wants to stay at home and do laundry and raise kids while her husband works, that's not "anti-feminist". As long as she's doing it because she wants to and not because society tells her to, it's exactly within what feminism is about.
 
I just got a flyer at My university. You are welcome if you identify as female.
 
Xeo
@EtiennedeMartel But does she only want to because society conditioned her to?!
/femspiracy-theorist
 
7:32 PM
@Xeo That's not for us to decide. Ultimately, like any humanism, feminism starts from the idea that you assume everyone is capable of free thought. That's why SWERFs (and radfems in general) are feminists in name only: the basis of their ideology is that some people are not acting in their own best self-interest, and therefore should be told what to do.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I blame feminism for Concepts still not having made it into standard C++.
 
@fredoverflow I don't care about concepts. Modules is where it's at.
FIGHT ME
 
I blame feminism for your face.
if it wasn't for those damn females, you wouldn't be born and therefore your face would not exist, so it's hard for them to avoid blame really
 
Xeo
@Puppy so - faceism?
 
@EtiennedeMartel C++ has always had the % operator ;)
 
7:34 PM
lol
yeah
 
Xeo
Screw concepts and modules. Gimme default operators :<
 
Wait, is it called modulus or remainder? I can never remember.
 
I'm anti-feminist and pro-faceist
 
@fredoverflow op is mod, result is rem
 
@fredoverflow It's supposed to be "remainder" but everyone learned it as "modulo" so thus, a semantic shift.
 
7:35 PM
I thought that modulo was the real mathematical term.
 
Xeo
I've come to a point with C++ standardisation where I'm not hoping for some fancy new language feature anymore, I just hope for basic usability enhancements...
 
@fredoverflow both are used, although not always to denote the same result
 
Xeo
But even that seems to be in vain, as default operators seem to be quite controversial to add! (Evidenced by the fact that they're still not in with the obvious syntax and semantics...)
 
@Xeo Like modules.
C++ will be so much more usable with them.
 
Xeo
But they're not very basic.
(In terms of adding them to C++.)
 
7:45 PM
Doesn't clang already have a module system for C++?
 
MSVC does, at least.
 
is it possible or even make sense to have a "always complete" binary tree?
I find I could eliminate empty tree nodes if I can pack in the deepest level
with some rules
that way I only allocate as many nodes as I need exactly
 
@EnnMichael No.
 
@EnnMichael I think Clang had a module system, but a.) it was experimental b.) good enough for C, but pretty much unusable for C++
 
@EtiennedeMartel I think that feminism (not as an ideology, but as an actual lived practice) has had some negative effects on men-women relationships. It could be argued the gains have outweighed them (a net win).
Perhaps it's not fair to say it is feminism
I'm thinking of this piece, and some others by Douthat.
 
8:05 PM
meh. Coliru timeout is 20s /cc @StackedCrooked
 
Xeo
@sehe Couldn't you increase that through some obscure command?
 
How do you think I know it's 20s :)
Hi there btw
 
ISTR something about increasing it
but only vaguely
 
Me too. Very concretely. Using it often.
 
@milleniumbug Obj-C has modules.
 
8:09 PM
A good number of months ago he made the effective timeout dependent on system load or something. So you can "ask" to increase, but it will modulate it down according to load
 
Xeo
@sehe Oh, so that is capped at 20 seconds?
 
^^
It's hard-capped at 60s AFAIK. But the soft-cap is dynamic these days
 
Xeo
I see
you should buy an uncapped coliru instance for yourself. :P
 
I can't. All the money went to the uncapped pornhub.
8
Sigh. Predictable room :)
 
@sehe :D
 
8:15 PM
We should have a Coliru for ant and maven and an entire SO site for gradle..
 
You're a sick son of a b. Porn okay, but will you think of the children? No need to scar them for life.
 
8:36 PM
@fredoverflow neither.
The remainder is the result of the modulo operation.
The remainder is the result of the modulo operation. The modulus is either the absolute value or the wraparound value in modular arithmetic.
"Five modulo two is one": the remainder is one.
Two is the modulus (the right operand of modulo).
And the other meaning gives "the modulus of two is two" and "the modulus of minus two is two".
 

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