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12:13 AM
So, basically the battery is dead weight on my laptop. When will manufactures get rid of them?
 
Okay, I just got back home and found that my non-overclocked AMD box errored. I've had that box error before, but only when the memory was overclocked. This time, everything is at stock.
And of course the error doesn't reproduce.
 
Should have used ECC :-)
 
Last week my laptop errored on a unit test that exhibited the same 3*2^k access pattern that triggered the Skylake bug from January. But I can't draw any conclusions from one data point. The laptop isn't overclocked.
I can't tell if the hardware is unstable, or if there's a subtle bug in the code. But I'm starting to suspect the latter.
Problem is that the error I got today happened in something that was single-threaded. (but multiple instances of it)
@Mikhail The guy with the 44-core box and 768GB ram reported a ton of stability problems after a BIOS update. Then when he updated again, the instability became better, but it didn't go away.
That thing definitely has ECC.
He sent me a bunch of crash minidumps of the failures. But most of them merely pointed to the part of the program that throws the exception after failing a redundancy check.
There was one where the program crashed. That one traced into a crash in Window's WriteConsoleW. I was like wtf?
As much as I want to blame a bug in my code, I just find it really hard to do so. The BIOS version should have no effect on a user-mode application.
 
12:31 AM
Stack smashed?
 
And even if it is a bug in the code, there is absolute no way for me to debug it.
 
Yeah, this is a common theme in our lives
 
The one thing, is that the program has a reputation for being one of the more notorious stress tests for memory. And I definitely see that on my overclocked boxes. But it does concern me when it starts to affect server hardware.
 
Well, there are other, more standard stress tests for memory
 
Because it means there's either an incredibly rare bug in the code. Or the hardware is stable enough to pass manufacturer QC, but not enough to pass my code.
memtest86 is actually a pretty poor stress-test.
I've personally encountered two cases where my Pi program would error within an hour, but memtest86 would run for the entire day no problem.
It's not just memory, there's got to be some combination of CPU pressure along with memory.
But the program does like to bail at the slightly hint of memory instability.
On the other hand, there's one guy who's been crushing all the records for the past year now with really large machines. And even when I asked him, he said he's never had any problems at all.
 
Ell
12:37 AM
So your code is the problem? :P
 
@Ell I'm willing to admit that my code is the problem. And I'd like to so I can fix it. But I can't imagine what kind of software bug would vary in frequency based on the stability of a system. Would change with BIOS updates. And would work perfectly fine with one guy with a dozen different quad-socket servers, but not another guy with a custom-built dual-socket rig with custom memory.
 
Like a race condition?
 
@Mikhail I've been considering a race condition for a long time. But these errors are also happening in sequential code.
As is the one that my AMD box hit today while I was at work.
 
Sounds fun
 
If the reason turns out to be that my code is more stressful than what manufacturers use for QC testing, fine. I'll accept that. But it doesn't solve the problem, nor do I find it easy to believe that's actually the case.
 
12:51 AM
You might also be exceeding the thermal envelope, for example
 
That's certainly possible. But it's the processor/BIOS's job to throttle if that becomes a problem.
 
Indeed, but in fairness its still in excess
 
That's definitely the case. The program generates a fucking lot more heat/power-draw than even your average HPC for distributed computing app.
 
Also AMD runs hotter
 
When the guy with the 44-core box started seeing these errors even after the second BIOS update, I was initially convinced it was a bug in the thread pool that I wrote back in January. But when he switched over to Cilk Plus. No effect. The same damn intermittent errors.
 
12:55 AM
That's not good
 
@JerryCoffin My 'work' 'laptop' is a tiny 11-inch that's much closer to being a tablet than anything. Lasts up to ~11 hours if I'm just using the web. ~5 hours if I'm compiling.
@Mysticial Intermittent errors are the toughest kind to debug because they usually result from things your code doesn't do, or things your code shouldn't do. Have you narrowed it down at all?
 
@Aaron3468 Not at all. There's no repro for it. I only have two cases that aren't on an overclocked machine. And I have about 10 cases from the guy with the 44-core box.
The errors are random. They happen everywhere. But only in the most computationally-intensive kernels.
 
FUCK YOU C++
Can't explicitly instantiate through an alias template.
What a fucking useless language.
:X
 
@Mysticial >.> It sounds like a timing issue then, and that'll be gloriously difficult to debug.
 
@Aaron3468 It happens in sequential code as well.
And in different compute kernels too.
 
1:05 AM
It could still be a timing issue if the processors execute an interrupt in the middle of non-atomic code.
 
@Aaron3468 It shouldn't matter. No matter what the processor/OS does, it needs to respect the sequential semantics of the program.
 
True. Probably best to assume the hardware is operating correctly, and go from there. Anyways, is there any way for you to narrow it down further, or do you think you'll just keep an eye out for it in the future?
 
#include <iostream>

int main()
{
    for (int i = 0; i < 2; ++i)
    {
        if (i)
        {
            std::cout << "world\n";
        }
        else
        {
            std::cout << "hello ";
        }
    }
}
 
@Aaron3468 I can't narrow it down because it doesn't repro. I've only seen two cases myself (on non-overclocked boxes). The rest were reported by the one guy with the custom-built 44-core box.
When I overclock the memory on either my AMD or my Haswell box, I see the exact same random errors.
I can make them happen quite frequently if I push the clocks to something really high.
 
1:08 AM
@fredoverflow And: "...I’m a woman and I guess that’s impressive because of how rare that is in Zambia..." Really? Women are rare in Zambia? Guess I'm glad I don't live there, anyway.
 
@fredoverflow that function doesn't return
 
@Mikhail What do you mean? It prints hello world just fine and then exits.
 
@Mysticial D: So would the memory be physically failing to keep up?
 
@fredoverflow return 0
 
@Mikhail return 0; is implicit in the main function.
 
1:10 AM
@Mikhail Happens implicitly in C++11 and later.
 
C++98
 
Anyways, it fails code review. Needs more auto.
 
@fredoverflow Not in C++98 or 03.
 
@fredoverflow Well that just looks silly... They might as well use an array with that loop (or a char[] of char* if they feel enterprising)
 
@Aaron3468 But you don't need an if-else if you simply subscript an array :)
 
1:12 AM
@Mikhail Then your code reviewer needs some education. If anything, having return there should be rejected.
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah. Or rather the memory controllers. My AMD box has 1866 memory. But if I run it anything above 1333, it starts erroring. No other application/stress-test can make it error at 1866 MHz. AMD specifies that 1333 MHz is the limit for 32GB. On my Intel box, the memory is 2400. But I can only get it stable at 2133 MHz. Intel specifies it only to be 1333 MHz when running 32GB.
 
@JerryCoffin What if it errored?
 
14
Q: return 0 implicit

kiewicThe last week on the ACM ICPC Mexico competition, I missed a "return 0" on a C++ program. For this reason we got punished with 20 minutes. I had read that the standard does not oblige us to write it at the end of a main function. It is implicit, isn't it? How can I prove it? We were using a Fe...

 
@Mysticial In that case, is there a way to dynamically tune the memory OC to remain within its safe bounds?
 
@Mikhail Then the return would be at the site of the error (or where it was returned to), not the very end of main.
 
1:14 AM
@Aaron3468 Not dynamically. I've been experimenting with the overclocks. Only to be disappointed that I can't reach the specified clocks for the memory because they are limited by the stability of the on-board memory controller.
The AMD box won't run stably with the memory above stock at all. The Intel box will go up to 2133 MHz.
And by "stable", I mean run my code for 24 hours straight.
The Intel box has yet to error with the memory at 2133 MHz. The AMD box failed for the first time today with the memory at stock 1333 MHz.
 
That makes it difficult. How would it be possible to estimate the stability of the memory controller? (maybe with a stress test?)
 
But in the non-overclocked cases, there aren't enough data points to point fingers yet.
But I can say very confidently that the rate of errors increases with higher memory speeds on both my AMD and Haswell boxes.
 
#include <stdio.h>

int main()
{
    long long a = 35662932501864;
    long long b = 11426432446327;
    printf("%s", &a);
    printf("%s", &b);
}
 
My main box (8-core Haswell) runs DDR4 @ 2400 MHz (slight overclock over 2133 MHz stock). No errors since I built it back in December 2014. The CPU is also "heavily" overclocked.
 
Yeah, if you can get more non-overclocked data points it'll help rule out the possibility that speed merely happens to be correlated to an entirely unrelated programming error.
 
1:19 AM
I probably have close to 50 datapoints on failures with the overclocked memory. I stopped keeping track of them. But it's obvious that high memory speeds = more errors.
But only two with completely stock systems.
 
@fredoverflow That's just evil
 
> printf '%x%x\n' 35662932501864 11426432446327
206f6c6c6568a646c726f77
I think the words might be in the wrong order?
Oh damn. I got my byte order intuition wrong again. Carry on.
 
What is that?
 
@Aaron3468 One thing to throw into the pool of possibilities is this:
Row hammer (also written as rowhammer) is an unintended side effect in dynamic random-access memory (DRAM) that causes memory cells to leak their charges and interact electrically between themselves, possibly altering the contents of nearby memory rows that were not addressed in the original memory access. This circumvention of the isolation between DRAM memory cells results from the high cell density in modern DRAM, and can be triggered by specially crafted memory access patterns that rapidly activate the same memory rows numerous times. The row hammer effect has been used in some privileg...
The memory access of the optimized compute kernels are heavily aligned to specific boundaries that could potentially hit that. And I do use cache-overriding instructions as a performance optimization. But it still seems unlikely.
 
only if %s stand for printing short instead of string
 
1:23 AM
@Darkrifts Ugly code. Don't do that.
@Mysticial It's definitely plausible, though you'd need some pretty hefty research and code to verify.
 
@fredoverflow Hmm...given the fragility of my memory, I'll take your word for it.
 
then int main () becomes misleading ...
like ... you tell people that you would do something and give them an answer
except you do something, then tell them nothing upon completion
 
@Telkitty Rather the contrary--you do give them an answer. The compiler ensures they automatically receive an equivalent of EXIT_SUCCESS unless you specify otherwise.
 
1:44 AM
@JerryCoffin You are probably confusing implicit return 0 with implicit typing or something ;)
There are emacs conventions? wow
 
I remember there being some A51 drama where the emacs site went to beta, but the vim site got shutdown during the commit phase.
The amount of butthurt on that was amazing.
 
@fredoverflow No--I distinctly remember the relief of no longer having to deal with the arguments about people not explicitly returning from main. My confusion is clearly just over the timeframe in which that happened.
 
@JerryCoffin Maybe you were thinking about C89 and C99?
350
Q: What should main() return in C and C++?

JoelWhat is the correct (most efficient) way to define the main() function in C and C++ — int main() or void main() — and why? If int main() then return 1 or return 0? There are numerous duplicates of this question, including: What are the valid signatures for C's main() function? The return ty...

 
@fredoverflow Nah--I'd pretty much entirely quit using C by the early 1990s. It would have been whenever they changed it in C++.
 
I would assume the code written by the winners of those programming competitions to work on the oldest and cheapest compilers
best programmer's code: written once, work everywhere
 
1:54 AM
@Telkitty Which do you mean? Oldest or cheapest? Compilers are free now, but they used to be damnably expensive.
 
s/cheapest/minimalist
 
I don't know, since the 90s we've had free compilers
When I was a kid I used djgpp
 
You can't claim yourself to be elite programmer when you code can only work on post C++11 compilers
 
yeah, as we know pre-incrementing is faster
 
@Telkitty I can't quite imagine trying to write code that would work on every computer system I've ever used. I suppose there might be some twisted subset of BASIC that would work on both the CDC Cyber mainframe, an Apple ][, and a current version of BASIC, but even assuming there is, I'm quite certain I don't want to use it.
 
1:58 AM
@JerryCoffin Just run a CDC Cyber emulator
 
@JerryCoffin This. While some code is portable across every system, you lose so much functionality sticking solely to that subset.
And some systems have very different performance for the same code because of how their design has been optimized for their purpose
 
@Mikhail You almost never need post-incrementing, anyway.
 
@Mikhail I have that, but you're missing the point. To my recollection the only language used on both the Apple ][ and the Cyber were versions of BASIC. Oh, but thinking about it they did also both have Pascal compilers. Either way, code that would port between the two would be extremely limited (even something as trivial as "capitalize everything in a file" probably wasn't portable).
 
On one hand, general purpose languages are very portable to general purpose machines. In a sense, being general-purpose is a specialization itself. But try porting C code to an AVR processor and you realize how limiting general-purpose code can sometimes be.
 
2:21 AM
 
Admiral Whale likes ^
 
3:04 AM
@JerryCoffin Oh is Apple ][ the way they stylized it
I saw one at an electronics junkyard in Brooklyn actually. They sell them as movie props.
They look really cool though. Makes me wonder if that plastic was always beige in color or if it came out of the factory white.
3
 
3:18 AM
@Nooble oh god
oh god you don't know
crisis intensifies
 
:c
 
please excuse me while I drama
 
3:40 AM
nuu
 
Choosing interfaces is sometimes the hardest part about programming. I can make the program 50 different ways, but there are usually 2 or 3 elegant implementations, maybe 5 more good enough, and the rest are very poor design
 
Why do some people write pointers like int* pI and others int *pI?
 
> Has written 6 lines of code 15 times
@Darkrifts because they're both legal. int *pi is the more correct one because int *p, q, r; expands to int *p; int *q; int *r;, which may not be the intent of the programmer.
 
I've always seen it as int* being the type and grouped them together (that and I don't usually have those multi-declare things that unroll)
 
The compiler does sees the pointer as part of the type, but due to the grammar, it is much easier to debug and read if you follow the int *p style.
Probably time for me to log off. Can't think clearly and I made a typo above. Here's the original article. That particular section can be found by searching for the first result of 'pointer'.
 
 
1 hour later…
4:54 AM
@sehe Yeah, should be exclusive_scan followed by a make_zip_iterator and copy_if, I believe
Or maybe even skip the exclusive_scan, let me see.
 
@Nooble For the 2 and 2+, yeah. For the 2e and (I believe) 2c the switched to "//e" and "//c", if memory serves. Then the 2GS was "IIGS" (with the "GS" in smaller font than the "II").
@Nooble They were originally beige.
 
5:10 AM
Hi, everyone
I have a C++ question and I don't know if I should ask here or in C++ questions and answers room?
what's the difference between the two rooms?
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah. Deciding on interfaces is probably one or the most difficult but important parts of writing a library. Somehow that became a big part of my current job. And fixing a bad interface is next to impossible when too many people are using it.
It's especially bad when the codebase is fragmented into many repros - most of which I don't have access to. So there's no way to safely make any backwards-incompatible changes.
 
@Mysticial XD here nobody gives a flying fuck about interfaces
BTW I'm gonna interview at your place
 
oh, ok. seems that here is not the place for asking questions. Here's the place where professional C++ programmers gather to evaluate each other for committee work. then I should go to the other room
8
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos I can't tell if you're joking or if it's for real. It is a big company and they are hiring. But it's not so big (like Google) that you'd randomly run into someone else with a connection to it.
 
Indeed
But HK is a small place
 
5:19 AM
Small but dense.
 
I think 90% of all big banks and hedge funds are within 10 mins walk (~800m) from my office
 
Are you by Admiralty?
 
it's called a CBD
 
It took me a sec to get the English name from the Cantonese one that I remember it by.
 
Also I am leaving Sydney in about a week's time, so if u wanna meet up in shenzhen on 9th Oct, this is one of your last few chances to inform me
 
5:30 AM
Ahaha, I saw that. So you're going to China to look for someone to do you chicken?
 
speaking of banks and hedge funds, introducing this high class chick(en) </sarcasm>
traveling & visiting relos
going here:
Jiuzhaigou (pronounced [tɕi̯òu̯ʈʂâi̯kóu̯]; Chinese: 九寨沟; literally: "Valley of Nine Fortified Villages"; Tibetan: གཟི་རྩ་སྡེ་དགུ།, ZYPY: Sirza Degu) is a nature reserve and national park located in the north of Sichuan province, China. Jiuzhaigou Valley is part of the Min Mountains on the edge of the Tibetan Plateau and stretches over 72,000 hectares (180,000 acres). It is known for its many multi-level waterfalls, colorful lakes, and snow-capped peaks. Its elevation ranges from 2,000 to 4,500 metres (6,600 to 14,800 ft). Jiuzhaigou Valley was inscribed by UNESCO as a World Heritage Site in...
also going to see my 95 yo grandpa
 
@Telkitty you realize of course this looks sort of like the chicken is a very expensive stripper
or maybe I'm terribly tired
 
@jaggedSpire In Cantonese and I believe Mandarin as well, to "do chicken" means to fuck a prostitute. So she soliciting something...
 
@Mysticial I do not even want to start to imagine how has this expression come to existence...
Morning guys and gal.
 
g'day
 
5:41 AM
@wilx it started with fucking chickens and it evolved
 
Yep, people provide food and shelter for their pets in exchange of companionship and affection. A lot similar to keep a lover ...
 
I guess sheep are less common over there...
 
@wilx The word "chicken" is also slang for a hooker. So the "do" part is pretty self-explanatory. Don't ask me how it that came to be. I have no fucking clue.
 
what atypical Sat afternoon! on the internet pimping my chicken ~_~
 
So the translation for KFC's slogan, "We do chicken right!" doesn't work too well in Chinese.
5
 
5:45 AM
@Mysticial :D
 
@Mysticial Central
@Telkitty good luck
I went there few months back
8 billion people per square feet
 
Fahrenheit Project - Part Two is awesome album. Songs 2--5 flow one into the next so awesomely.
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos Do they do chickens there?
 
@Mysticial It's illegal now in China
If you wanna do chickens you go to Macau
2
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos What if I want to do sheep?
 
5:53 AM
I... I am not sure
@Griwes lol
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos before or after the blackjack
 
That's kinda racist
 
Crisis averted. I found another pack of my medicine.
 
I still don't get why you can't see a table of fares by days instead of dates on airline websites
I wanna know what are the prices for a flight to X over all weekends in october, takes me 4 requests
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos Because the schedule is not fixed that much?
 
6:06 AM
It very much is, it's just never an option to search like that
 
Does Asia have a "Chicago-like" hub that all flights go through but randomly goes down due to bad weather?
 
Yeah that'd be HK probably
Well HK-SZ-GZ
They serve a lot of flights and go down together usually
 
Does HK have really bad weather?
 
Rarely, but when there's a typhoon all flights are diverted (so basically only happens during typhoon season)
 
During the winter, whenever there's a flight delay in the US, it's probably because the fucking plane goes through Chicago and there's a blizzard there.
 
6:09 AM
I mean it could also just be Newark being Newark
menacing flight scheduling evreywhere
 
HK to SZ is about 2.5 hour by train or bus
why are you searching flights?
 
 
2 hours later…
8:04 AM
@Mysticial Noob mistake going to Chicago
 
nwp
8:43 AM
I listened to a podcast explaining that starbucks is more successful than other coffee shops because in normal coffee shops you have to give your order 3 times, once to the person making the coffee, then repeat it because he forgot, then a third time when you pay for it. Starbucks figured out how to get everything done with just stating your order once and apparently that attention to removing customer annoyance is a key part of their success.
Today I stood at a grocery store line and the cashier had to leave the booth, walk outside and look up the price for a flower that they were selling for some reason.
It feels like a third of the time the bar code scanner doesn't actually work and they have to type in numbers by hand.
Makes me sad that there is no grocery starbucks.
 
grocery probably pays taxes
 
10:07 AM
So far Rust is pleasing and strange language. I'm beginning to get the hang of it
 
10:33 AM
@Aaron3468 You should try to make non-trivial program. Like an OS.
:P
 
Ven
@fredoverflow right? You're supposed to use factories!
@Aaron3468 you got it backwards. Some people write int *a; because int *a, b; expands to int *a; int b; :).
 
10:52 AM
> Just like you can learn to speak Spanish at any age, you can learn to program at any age
Right..
 
11:14 AM
Today's political reset button: If baby bat burritos are wrong, I don't wanna be right. https://t.co/gRqym67fl2
/cc @jaggedSpire @sbi
 
user1804599
TIL repeating-linear-gradient
 
12:11 PM
> When I was a kid, it was no caffeine, or hot drinks, or black people. Now cold caffeine and black people are allowed.
 
12:41 PM
But what about the hot drinks?
 
Xeo
1:04 PM
39 messages moved to bin
Never happened.
Yay for history rewriting.
 
Ven
git push --force-with-xeo
I never liked that lease guy anyway.
 
c’est comme délicatesse, on en parle toujours mais perso je l’ai jamais vue
 
user4710450
@Ven Who?
 
Ven
@Ehsan yes
 
user4710450
What do you mean by yes?
 
1:07 PM
@Ehsan A joke on --force-with-lease, a git push option
 
Ven
@набиячлэвэли hi bby
 
Ven
at school
presenting the school to possibly-newcomers
 
user4710450
Hmmm.. It seems this room is for Polish coders only!
 
user4710450
1:09 PM
@milleniumbug, tnx bro
 
user4710450
Bye all
 
Ven and Luc aren't polish though :D
 
user4710450
I am planning to take a trip to Czech Republic, I hope I could come to Poland also :P
 
hey no slander
 
2:00 PM
@LucDanton That's offensive and outright racist.
 
so is your face
 
Mods! MODS!
 
you need to ping them directly, there are two hibernating in this chat
 
@Xeo oh come on now I have to repost that tweet
:P
.@wikileaks threatening @dailydot journalists for exposing their withheld leaks... yikes. http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/9/12864328/wikileaks-threat-reporters-syria-russia-emails
 
Xeo
collateral damage vOv
or you could take it as censorship, to make it ironic.
 
2:42 PM
user image
4
 
Xeo
this is ridiculous
time to feed the cats...
 
@Xeo Use SysInternals Process Explorer :v
 
Xeo
prolly won't work either
just read up on this a bit
the only thing that can kill that is a reboot, apparently
ffs
I hate rebooting.
 
3:09 PM
user image
5
 
 
2 hours later…
5:17 PM
@PatrickM'Bongo o.O maybe you should leave a comment for the poor OP
@Xeo is it stuck in "debug" mode? (I.e. try restarting IDE's, killing runaway debug processes etc)
 
@Aaron3468 The problem is that this assumes that you're terrible enough to want to declare multiple raw pointer variables in one declaration.
int* p is more correct since int* is the type of p, and fuck multi-variable declarations.
 
> more correct
muhahahahahaha
 
insofar as either choice is more or less correct than the other anyway
he used the term "more correct" so I'm permitted to use it here regardless ;p
 
int *p, *q; // NO NO NO!
int* p; int* q; // FTFY lads
@Puppy You're permitted to make an ass of yourself too :) Lel.
Nice to see you btw
 
it's been a long time since I FTFYd anybody
what, did I take a trip to Mars and not notice?
 
5:28 PM
raw_ptr<int> p, q;
 
@Puppy In that case, I didn't notice it
@milleniumbug Nah. raw_ptr<int> p; decltype(p) q;
 
@sehe Not sure I'd call that "fixed" unless there was some special reason to squash both onto one line.
 
Xeo
@sehe Debug process attached to that was also unkillable
Had to reboot.
 
5:48 PM
@Xeo W10?
 
Xeo
W8.1
 
6:41 PM
@JerryCoffin You're the humor master. I wouldn't know about that.
 
Ven
7:10 PM
@PatrickM'Bongo nice pic
 
@Ven That's the typo I was referring to x.x
@StackedCrooked That'll be part of a less-trivial program ^^; If I were to try writing an OS, I would be drowning in compiler and runtime errors because the language I think I'm writing is not the language I am in the process of learning.
But I'd do significantly better writing an OS in one of the languages I'm familiar with: Java, Python, or god forbid... C++ :p
 
7:36 PM
> >writing an OS
> >Java
 
> The joke

> You
 
Are object lifetimes in garbage collected languages too unpredictable for an OS? What happened to Singularity?
 
@Mikhail I think this is mostly a problem with assuming an environment where there is none
As in, your job as an OS writer is to provide an environment
but you're delegating your job to JVM which relies on an existing environment
 
That is possible by extending the language a little, for example what they did with C#. I'm more interested in the programming architecture challenges.
 
iirc, the way in which android was implemented was a mini OS/environment in C (and C++ after a little bit), and then Java on top of that
 
7:49 PM
I would call it linux...
 
Right, it was linux. One of the problems I frequently have is relying on my memory. It forms impressions that are in the ballpark of being correct, but generally not correct enough for practical use.
 
Its also nice if you have one of those mini-laptop that runs android. You can use the vendor supplied kernel and modules to boot some kind of Debian system.
 
no it's not nice
you're still restricted to running the same kind of kernel the android has
i.e. the buggy ones because hardware makers are shit at providing software
 
8:15 PM
@sehe @JerryCoffin Help me, intellectuals. Is it "an 8-bit integer" or "a 8-bit integer", if the same text also writes "a 16-bit integer"?
 
ICCL
I would write an 8-bit integer. Because it speaks easily.
However, it's not alway so clearcut (e.g. when pronunciations of the abbrev. varies)
 
Thanks.
 
For example, in this document the author uses the terms interchangeably :-) github.com/zorgiepoo/Bit-Slicer/wiki/Data-Types
 
@Mikhail Ahh, that's on point indeed.
@sehe Does that mean that you could, or couldn't? Damn so much intellectuality to crib
 
the rule is largely based on pronunciation and spelling, and it's a cosmetic rule more than anything. fwiw, it doesn't matter to me until you've spelled 'eight-bit'.
 
8:19 PM
Defiantly, should be an because eight is a vowel sound.
 
In the case of '8-bit', it's abbreviated English which implies that rules will be bent for the sake of clarity rather than tradition
 
@Columbo "Eight" starts with a vowel, so "an". "Sixteen" starts with a consonant, so "a".
 
That's the reasoning I fell for, yes
 
That's the proper reasoning, too. I find it amusing that formal English is concerned about ease of pronunciation in that case, yet doesn't allow similar optimizations like going to -> gonna. Formal English doesn't have a good track record for being practical about things like that
 
Yeah, they fucked it up in 1066
 
Ven
8:30 PM
@Aaron3468 sorry :c I read the transcript in order when I backlog and post as I read. Twas a case of a stale one...
 
> Defiantly
 
@milleniumbug I blame spell check
 
@Ven All is forgiven
 
@Mikhail the best part this is actually a word in english so in this case the resulting meaning of the sentence is pretty much opposite
 
@milleniumbug More often than not, I see that mistake being used to jokingly provoke grammar pedants. I've even used it in that manner on occasion because it's funny.
It makes me feel like the next statement I'm making is to spite all the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune in the world, and that I'm about to become a martyr for saying it. I get off on melodramatic grammar vOv
 
8:39 PM
@Aaron3468 You are such a grammar queen.
 
@JerryCoffin Wait, "uniform" starts with a vowel but is never appended to "an"
 
22
Q: Is it "a uniform" or "an uniform"?

JFWOn a Physics specification, it says: 6.7 Know how to use two permanent magnets to produce a uniform magnetic field pattern. Isn't it "produce an uniform magnetic field", or is the existing "produce a uniform magnetic field pattern" correct?

 
it can be difficult for people who write English but don't actually speak it to figure out what to do here because the grammatical rule is based on pronunciation aloud
 
The real solution is to use a word frequency search on Google
 
@Columbo Although it's not written there, "uniform" is pronounced as starting with a "y" which is not (in this case) a vowel.
 
8:45 PM
well, it would be a pronunciation search, not a word frequency search.
 
@Columbo ICCL - obviously!
 
The CPU in the iPhone 7 is roughly similar perf wise to Intel's top of the line Sandy Bridge Core i7-2600 in 2011.
/cc @Mysticial
o.O
 
Many people learn new languages by spelling, but spelling is generally a side effect of the spoken language. Grammar is also a side effect, though often a very consistent one. So I can understand why learners have difficulty
 
@Borgleader In what performance modes?
 
@Borgleader IOW, I shouldn't get the iPhone7 because my current iPhone's battery is dead.
 
8:49 PM
@Aaron3468 I disagree that spelling is a side effect of spoken language. Written language abstracts spoken language to quite an extent and spelling strongly reflects etymology above phonetics
 
@Columbo I should probably also add that a few true pedants (or at least some pedantic books) still treat some words that start with "h" as if the "h" were silent (as it apparently was only a few centuries ago), and based on that insist that these words should be preceded by "an".
 
@sehe That is a great counter-argument. IOW, don't learn to spell a language first because written language sucks.
 
That, of course, is only one example of phrasing that some pedants insist should be used, even though it looks wrong when written and sounds wrong when pronounced.
 
@JerryCoffin I would argue that it only looks wrong because it sounds wrong, but your point that it's an example of pedantry being Quixotic is fair
 
In Czech, what is correct is codified by Institute of the Czech Language - Ústav pro jazyk český. They iterate and take as input that what is spoken and written and occasionally make corrections to the rule books to reflect the changes.
It is weird that English does not have such a thing. :)
 
8:55 PM
@Aaron3468 At least to me, it looks wrong because "h" is no a vowel. There are cases you can ignore that (e.g., "...an honorable gentleman ...") because the "h" isn't (currently) pronounced, and it really does sound right.
@wilx French does as well. As I recall, @LucDanton has commented that it doesn't really make a big difference in the end.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, here, it does, IMHO. It is what it taught in schools. Not following will get you bad grades in Czech language subjects at school. :)
Weirdly, some Moravian people speak more correct Czech than Bohemians.
 
 
@wilx While there are enough fringe cases to keep pedants busy, there's enough agreement that schools (at least inside the US) teach the language quite uniformly. There are some differences between what's taught in the US compared to Great Britain, but even there most differences are mostly about what's typically used among a number of acceptable choices (e.g., Americans typically use "X is different from Y", while Brits typically use "X is different to Y").
 
English is fundamentally a descriptive, not prescriptive, language.
 
@Puppy Well, dictionaries, books of grammar, etc., are descriptive rather than prescriptive anyway (though text books typically take a more prescriptive stance, telling students what they should do).
 
9:11 PM
Well, huge part of Czech is about writing the correct i/y and s/z. Very prescriptive.
 
Coincidentally, this is also a huge part of why nobody wants to read Czech
 
@wilx English has always been regulated by the ruling caste, like many European languages. Europe's history is full of polite cultural exchanges, such as The Spanish Inquisition :D
 
@Mikhail Nope. Reading Czech is easier than reading English, actually.
But is it certainly why nobody wants to write it.
 
Hey, quick question, so with std::bind http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/functional/bind
says it takes r-values, but when you use std::bind you don't need to use std::move, why is this?
 
nwp
because you don't need std::move to make rvalues
 
9:16 PM
you seem to have mistaken us for stackoverflow.com
 
9:43 PM
@MichaelMitchell move does nothing. Also, bind does nothing very little (that lambdas don't do better)
 
@Aaron3468 Written language sucks? When was the last time you read Rudyard Kipling?
 
@CaptainGiraffe Correction: "Written language sucks is extraordinarily prone to edge-cases, exceptions, unintuitive constructs, and lack of visible shared context (shared context being the shared experience of a small subset of reality observable to both parties in the communication)"
 
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