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10:04 PM
@Aaron3468 You know; You don't have to be this angry. The written language is often quite wonderful.
 
Please do note that due to the lack of context, you assumed that I was angry ;)
 
@Aaron3468 It was the struck out sucks that made me make that assumption.
 
No worries. Just emphasizing the self-demonstrating point that despite the value of written language, it is supplementary to spoken language (and spoken language is supplementary to observable traits of reality)
 
nah
written language > spoken language
we need a spoken language but written language is more important
 
written language can be read much faster
 
10:09 PM
How do we categorize oral history? Obviously the intention is to archive words.
 
...than listening to spoken language
 
@Puppy How so? Certainly it preserves communication beyond the short lifetime of a spoken communication. imo though, written language is an alternate means of expressing the spoken language (and at times can be made more precise and/or brief due to its ability to retain amendments).
 
it's not "an alternate" means of expressing the spoken language, it's a vastly superior means of expressing it.
spoken language is just an expression in as of itself anyway so it's hard to argue that a vastly superior expression doesn't beat an inferior one
 
So then your argument is that spoken and written languages are an expression of some internal language, which itself is an expression of observations?
 
@MichaelMitchell std::move is really just a cast to rvarlue reference. Since bind already takes rvalue reference parameters, whatever you pass will be converted to rvalue reference (if possible) without an explicit cast (disguised or otherwise).
 
10:12 PM
And that written language is generally a better means of expression of this internal language?
 
@Aaron3468 What the internal language actually is doesn't really matter in this case.
all that matters is that writing it is way better than speaking it
 
There are three pivotal moments in the history of mankind in my opinion. The bag, We can carry our stuff with us. We can share what we find. The community (farming): People know where to share stuff. The Internet. The world gets connected, and it's all downhill from here.
 
hmm
I think you should spend some more time studying human history, since there are clearly pivotal moments you've massively missed out
like industrial revolution, renaissance
 
@Puppy I suppose there's a difference in what we communicate. You communicate an opinion, while I attempt to categorize in words what I observe.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I'd rate the printing press as more important than the internet. When you get down to it, the Internet is just another (of many) incremental improvement on the printing press.
 
10:16 PM
eh I think I disagree with that
 
@CaptainGiraffe Nah. Fire, wheel and printing press.
 
whilst it's clear that the Internet and the printing press have similar fundamental principles, the Internet is such a vastly superior implementation it's hard for me to accept that it's just an incremental improvement
 
@JerryCoffin So when will IP over printing press arrive
 
@JerryCoffin Gutenberg increased the bandwith from 1kb per month to 100kb per month.
 
I think the pivotal moments in human history were mass adoptions of highly efficient mechanisms of production(? this term is a little incorrect); first of food, later of production, then of transportation, then of communication, etc.
 
10:18 PM
@Puppy 200 Ok.
 
I hate HTTP.
 
@Puppy If you compare the (current) Internet to Gutenberg's press, I'd agree. But, the fact is that there were lots of incremental improvements in between, and the Internet really was a fairly small incremental improvement over its direct predecessors.
 
Blegh, my attempt at definition basically boils down to 'the pivotal moments were moments that were pivotal'. Q.Q I'll never be able to express things precisely enough without ignoring at least some instances
 
@Puppy That is all fine and dandy. Roy's work has had tremendous success.
 
I'm very sad now because it's clear to me that there's no such thing as 'complete'. I'll spend a lifetime doing things that don't need to be done, except that they make it easier to do things that don't need to be done Q.Q
 
10:25 PM
@CaptainGiraffe More importantly than the mere change in bandwidth, however, he changed people's basic thinking about printing. Instead of a purely human activity that remained at a fixed level essentially forever, it became a mechanical process that was open to change and improvement.
 
@JerryCoffin I didn't actually have to use any of its direct predecessors, so you may take my opinion with a grain of salt, but I don't believe that having any node be able to broadcast to the entire network at any time, essentially, and being able to broadcast code, is all that incremental.
 
> Lounge<Existentialism>
 
@Aaron3468 It might be better said as "All moments are pivotal; they just pivot more or less, and what you define to be noteworthy pivots is a matter of degree"
 
@JerryCoffin I'm glad you made that extrapolation. This is also true for comparing kilobit to megabit to gigabit connections. A modem 56k user is not privy to the web.
 
@Puppy By that point, the only reason to discuss pivotal moments is so that you can express them clearly to someone else, rather than to identify them. And if the point is not to identify them, why are you having that discussion in the first place?
^ I use 'you' in a broad sense; I don't mean to direct that argument at you Puppy, because I do find your point interesting
 
10:32 PM
@Aaron3468 To discuss the relative magnitude of their pivot?
 
I would ask 'why discuss pivot?', but the problem with asking 'why' is that it invokes an infinite set of things which may be questioned with 'why'... So many bad habits for me to repair in the way I communicate
 
@Puppy There were a half dozen (or so) networks that could do that before the Internet. From a technical viewpoint, any of them was capable of essentially all the same things as the modern internet.
 
I thought that the modern Internet was just basically those networks glued together and didn't really consider them as separate things
 
2^32 computers doing Token ring would be a sight =)
 
Almost Bitcoin
 
10:40 PM
@CaptainGiraffe I was thinking less in terms of physical layers than higher levels that let various physical protocols interact relatively transparently (e.g., things like DECNet, IPX/SPX more than physical layers like token ring vs., Ethernet).
 
@JerryCoffin I know you were, any reasonable person would. I just found the idea hilarious.
 
@CaptainGiraffe If you were talking about them forming a single segment (i.e., on giant ring) I'd agree. You'd never get a single message though.
 
The problem with reasonable people is that they would not get anything useful done without unreasonable people to implement their designs
 
@JerryCoffin 3x10^8 m/s would be an extremely limiting factor.
 
@CaptainGiraffe From a practical viewpoint, I doubt it would ever come into play at all. Rings are very fragile structures--every single machine has to operate (to at least some minimal degree) before any of them can use the network at all.
 
10:57 PM
Again I just found the idea hilarious. Your technical objections are relevant and correct had I've been serious.
Internet over decnet isn't funny at all.
 
11:22 PM
@Aaron3468 Aha. Last night, before I went to bed, I loaded up my laptop with mixed set of unit tests. This morning, one of the them errored. It's a single-threaded test, memory-intensive, and loaded with cache-overriding instructions.
I don't usually load my laptop up with unit tests. But if I can get a consistent repro with a < 12-hour repro time, that will be good enough for me to do an extended binary-search over a month.
 
@Mysticial over a month o.O
 
@Mysticial Awesome! So do you think it's enough to say it's row-hammer, or would it just be cache failures?
 
I need to determine:
1. Is it software or hardware?
2. If it's software, where the fuck is bug? And fix it.
3. If it's hardware, what component is failing? What kind of load causes it? Are there any work-arounds?
 
Ah, so you managed to narrow it down to the cache when the memory is in heavy use, but it needs more precise testing to have any clue why
 
If I can get a consistent repro on the laptop, the first thing I'm gonna do is to disable all the cache-overriding instructions. (no prefetching, no NT-load/stores)
The fact that I'm able to reproduce this with a single-threaded process (just multiple processes running at a time) is a good indicator that the problem is not a software race-condition.
 
11:28 PM
That's definitely better than "the code crashes a lot on this one guy's setup and once in a blue-moon everywhere else, and it seems to happen more often with memory overclocks" :)
 
The other dimension I want to test is older versions of the program. Does it repro on v0.6.8 and v0.6.9? Right now, everything has been running on v0.7.1 and trunk (v0.7.2).
The last few versions of the program has made it incrementally more stressful on the memory.
I'm not gonna investigate row-hammer effects until I actually narrow it down to memory with some level of confidence.
 
@Mysticial Ah, I see. You want to see if it has been a chronic problem that's seen a spike in frequency due to greater memory usage, or if it has only been part of a recent change.
@Mysticial Agreed, they seem like one of the more difficult things to unit test, so ruling out simpler problems first is a good idea
 
Both DDR3 and DDR4 are affected by row-hammer.
My laptop is Skylake + DDR4.
My AMD box is Piledriver + DDR3.
Both of them have errored at least once at stock.
Another thing that I might try is to do a proper MTTF test vs. memory speed on my 4770K Haswell. And plot the curve.
But I have a strong feeling that will be difficult if I can't get it to fail below 2133 MHz.
 
Which box was it that failed at absurdly low OCs? That one should have the headroom to safely OC a few more notches so you have more failure curves.
 
@Aaron3468 The AMD box.
I've seen it fail at 1600 MHz a few times. AMD specifies 1333 MHz as the limit.
I can test that one up to 1866 MHz.
 
11:39 PM
There we go, the data from that one should theoretically be more useful because errors occur so much more frequently.
But testing both won't hurt at all
 
It's worth nothing that every error that has happened so far (both myself and reported to me from that one guy) were on one of the AVX2 binaries while running AVX2-intensive code.
But there's some observational bias there. That guy has never run the non-AVX2 binaries.
I run them all since I need to test them. And it is only the AVX2 binaries that fail (including on the overclocked boxes).
But that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the AVX2 that's causing it. The AVX2 binaries are twice as fast, so they are also twice as stressful on the memory.
 
Ah, so then it still might be chronic to all binaries, but there's enough prevalence to justify scrutinizing AVX2 for the problem, then trying to repro on the other binaries after you've figured it out
 
I take that back, the AMD box fails on the XOP binary.
Since it can't run the AVX2 binary.
But the XOP binary is still more memory-intensive than all the other binaries - except the AVX2 one.
More intensive than the AVX1 binary - which has yet to fail.
 
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