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Ven
4:07 PM
Okay, whoever asked why Python sucks. Here's another example.
There's no built-in method in ConfigParser (which is a .ini parser, btw) to parse a sectionless .ini file.
 
@Ven This seems to speak to a defect in one particular library, not the language as a whole. It's about like concluding that cars are evil because my aunt is a lousy driver.
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin yeah but it's one of the language's lib. As in "batteries included". As in "std::".
 
@Ven ...and? The jump from "they didn't plan for my use case" to "the language sucks" isn't just crossing the Grand Canyon. It's more like jumping across the Pacific Ocean in a single bound.
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin Python is the language + the libs. Many things that suck in C++ are found in std::, not in the syntax or semantics.
 
@Ven You're still not getting it. First of all, this is working exactly as documented ("The configuration file consists of sections, led by a [section] header and followed by name: value entries..."). So the problem here isn't a bug in the code, it's merely that you disagree with their definition of what constitutes a valid configuration file. Second, concluding the system is broke based on one example is ridiculous.
 
Ven
4:19 PM
@JerryCoffin I quoted plenty a examples those last few days on why I dislike a lot of it – hence the "another example". Saying "hey we have a ini parser... no jk it's our subset of ini fuck you" is retarded
 
@Ven It would be one thing if there was a clear definition of what constituted a .ini file, and they were clearly violating that specification. Unfortunately for you, 1) there's no clear definition of the syntax required for a .ini file, and 2) to the degree that it is defined, it's defined so that a .ini file must consist of sections, each of which must have a section header. For example, see GetPrivateProfileString.
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin What I can find over at wikipedia says "Keys may (but need not) be grouped into arbitrarily named sections". One example of a required format for profile strings doesn't really cut it
 
@milleniumbug Just remember to use a popular IDE because the cmake generator for codelite decides to compile with -j 0
 
@Ven .ini files came from Windows. Their original definition is basically: "what Write[Private]ProfileString writes and Read[Private]ProfileString reads". Anything else is descriptive, not prescriptive (which is to say, if Wikipedia disagrees, then it's basically wrong).
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin That's very easy to say, but unless you get the hand on the parser or every instance thereof of nt's ini parser, you can't claim that.
 
4:34 PM
@Ven Those words look like English individually, but when put together in the way you have, they don't seem to make a sentence. IOW, I'm baffled at what you're trying to say there.
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin I'm claiming "it's that way" based on how wikipedia defines it. You're claiming "it's that way" based on an example existing in windows nt
But hey go ahead and attack my english, you look really smart making fun of a frenchie's foreign languages skills.
 
@Ven Actually, it existed in Windows 1.0 long before NT existed. The real point, however, is that the format (in general) started with Windows. Microsoft Windows 1.0 was the first thing to ever use that format. It exists because of Windows, and its definition is basically "what Windows did (and still does)".
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin Implying languages are immutable blocks of stones.
 
So I got a recruiter email about a Python job. What the fucking world could possibly make anyone think I know anything about Python? I know it's the name of a snake...
 
Ven
@Mysticial do you know what snake ;)?
 
4:39 PM
As far as "attacking" goes, I wasn't attacking anything--like I said, I was simply baffled at what you were trying to say. Thank you for clarifying.
 
Ven
shrugs
Have it your way. You keep defining .ini as "whatever it was in the ancient era of dragons" and I'll use "whatever everyone has been doing for the past 10-20 years" – and so I'm still baffled Python's ini parser doesn't support that.
 
Ell
@Ven that isn't what he's saying
 
@Ven Not at all. I am, however, implying that since it's defined as "what Windows does", claiming that somebody's doing something wrong even though they follow what Microsoft says about what Windows does makes no sense.
 
Ell
he's saying it's whatever windows does now
I think
 
Ven
@Ell as I said – I'm not gonna spend more time bikeshedding on what ini means or should mean
 
4:42 PM
@Mysticial Let's just say you won't be calculating more than a few digits of pi each second ^^; Nice language but so slow
 
@Ell Windows has done essentially the same thing from Windows 1.0 up through Windows 10 (though, of course, using .ini files has been deprecated for a long time). To the best of my knowledge, there's never been any real variation.
@Mysticial Maybe I should talk to my wife about becoming a recruiter. She knows I "do computers", which seems to be about the level of knowledge necessary for the job.
 
@JerryCoffin I bet it's probably more on the lines of getting so desperate that they'll go after everyone regardless of qualifications.
Or rather, they don't take the time to look at the qualifications.
 
Ven
Recruiters are so desperate they even try to recruit me.
 
@Mysticial Perhaps--but from what I've seen of recruiters, complete ignorance is usually a fair assumption.
 
Many recruiting firms are sketchy, honestly.
 
4:47 PM
@JerryCoffin Depends on the "level". The ones that are trying to fill entry-level positions lean on the side of that. One recruiter that I talked to back in January was "shocked" at my entry-level Google salary when I was asked for a price range.
But everyone once in a while, there will be some more serious ones that know their shit. They're the ones trying to fill the more senior/specialized positions. And they know how to target people.
 
Ven
they offer you candy
 
I've only ever been contacted by 4 in that latter category. The rest of them are in the "entry-level" category.
 
@Mysticial Shocked how? At it being too low, too high or just shocked that you'd consider moving from there to the land of wind and snow? :-)
 
A recruiter contacted me once, scheduled an 'interview' the next morning. When I sent a message back requesting it to be postponed. The interviewer postponed it two days later; the day of a funeral I'd explicitly given the date of as the reason for postponement.
 
@JerryCoffin It was an odd number.
 
4:50 PM
@JerryCoffin "Really? You're making 100k+ at Google? How is that possible? The positions I'm trying to fill are for 50k!"
Oh for fucks sake, everyone knows Google pays all engineers 100k+.
 
Ven
and that they're shit at software
grumbles
 
Google search is rather ok.
 
Angular is pretty good too
 
You don't even need to google it know how much Google pays its entry-level software developers.
 
Ven
it has a slight misfeature: it sells your life to anyone and everyone.
@SterlingArcher no. no. no.
 
4:52 PM
My company uses angular and once you get past the learning curve it's pretty intuitive for templating and data binding
Dependency Injection also makes it super easy to create a build process
 
@Mysticial Not to mention that the only way you could live in (or near) Google HQ on only 50K/year would be to pitch a tent under a bridge.
 
Ven
^ what
@JerryCoffin I read a story about some kid starting at google, living in a small truck to pay tuition...
 
@JerryCoffin I was already in Chicago at this time. But it's not like downtown Chicago rent is any better than the Bay Area.
 
@AndreasPapadopoulos a teef is mad at me for playing like a teef (bonus French points: "le vieux ramasser merde")
 
Northern VA rent is pretty hefty too
But salaries are pretty intense here
 
4:58 PM
There's definitely a bit of a jobs/skills mismatch out there. I know a lot of people with degrees who can't find jobs. And at the same time, there are shit-ton of companies who can't find anyone to fill positions.
 
At least at the places I've worked most applicants are rejected. Despite the shortage.
I suppose good-enough programmers are hard to find.
 
I think the biggest offender of that is Amazon. Every couple months, I get a recruiter email from them. Each time from different teams and different departments. Clearly they don't talk.
 
@Mysticial That could be taken as a suggestion that having a degree doesn't imply competence...
 
@StackedCrooked That. The impression that I get is that nobody is interested in fresh-out-of-school people. They all want the experienced people.
@JerryCoffin I read an article somewhere suggesting that the next "bubble" is the education bubble. Tech in 1999. Finance in 2007. Education in >2017 maybe?
 
@Mysticial Probably aren't allowed to. Anything that could be taken as collusion to prevent certain people (e.g., minorities) from getting hired could open them up to liability, so it's probably easiest to just decree that they can't talk to each other at all, rather that try to write complex definitions of what's allowed and what isn't.
 
5:04 PM
Oh yeah, and they want me to relocate to Texas, Wisconsin, you name it...
 
@Mysticial I also get that impression. I openly advertise myself as able to be a junior/entry level developer but companies lose interest in me when I explain that although I've coded in ~75% of the popular languages and I'm able to work through problems, I haven't got the experience yet to head projects.
 
@Mysticial I think to a degree (no pun intended) we've had an education bubble for years already (though it hasn't popped, at least in any obvious way). Even by the time I graduated high school it was pretty much taken for granted that essentially everybody should (and would) go to college. As one newspaper columnist put it, we have a country of over-educated dummies.
 
@Aaron3468 Back in January during my job search, one of the first things that I'd say to a non-finance recruiter was, "just to be clear, I'm not a full-stack developer".
And they usually respond saying that it "severely limits my possibilities". Well, yeah, I kinda knew that already.
 
You only need one job.
 
^^
 
5:07 PM
"Hey, can we pay you one person's salary to do 5 different person's jobs?" "No."
 
The term "full-stack developer" is also a term that I used to judge the recruiter's competence. If they don't even know that word means, then they're probably not worth talking to.
 
I notice that a lot of people hiring web developers expect you not only to build the site, but to maintain it as a sysadmin afterwards too
 
full-queue developers are better
9
 
@Mysticial Reminds me of an interview I saw with Burt Reynolds when he was at his most famous. He was talking about having to warn people that he was just an actor, and not really all that great. The interviewer says: "so when you introduce yourself it's 'Hi I'm Burt Reynolds, but I'm not really that great." He replies with: "No, it's 'Hi. Sorry, but I'm not really that great. Oh, and yeah, I'm Burt Reynolds."
 
@JerryCoffin lol. I've interviewed a guy like that - but he actually meant it. Clearly way over the threshold of arrogance. No we didn't hire him.
 
5:14 PM
@Mysticial I'd have said the opposite: if they really do know it in any detail, they're probably not worth talking to. If it's more like: "yeah, I've heard of that--I think it's something about web dev or something" they might be my kind of guy.
 
@JerryCoffin I've had people contact me for a webdev position. No idea why. Anyone who knows anything about web development would realize that my site is run by someone who knows absolutely nothing about web development.
 
@Mysticial It's "retro"... :-)
 
The biggest proof that I know nothing about web-development is that my site got hacked into despite being a static site with no user-input.
18
 
@Mysticial that's... impressive
 
@Mysticial How'd that happen?
 
5:19 PM
Hmm...maybe we just need to define "full-stack developer" more specifically: "yes, I can use an editor, compiler, linker, version control, and build system."
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The host (GoDaddy) got hacked. And they put backdoors into over a million sites that they hosted.
 
that doesn't really count as hacking your website
 
@milleniumbug I didn't catch it for a quite a while. Since they embedded things into .htaccess which came with the host and I never touched it.
 
@Mysticial Choosing a crappy host seems to indicate more about incompetence as a site administrator than developer. OTOH, in consideration of your feelings, I'll still agree that you suck as a web developer.
 
F[a][k](this) /cc @Mysticial
 
5:23 PM
It was only later when I started seeing PHP files show up in random places did I realize something was up. And when I looked into, I was like... oh shit. I'm calling my friend Raymond... He knows more about web-dev.
I sent him a sample of the PHP malware and he was like... woah...
I ended up doing a git-noob style revert: Delete the whole thing and re-clone.
@Borgleader lol, I admit to using a lot of single-letter variables in my own code.
 
@Mysticial I am disappoint
 
@Mysticial I thought that was the Aliens method: "Nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
@Borgleader For some reason reminds me of a conversation I had in a bar years ago. There was a kid talking about when he played football in college, and some guy was trying to insult him by calling him a "wigger" (apparently short for "white nigger"), but he didn't know what that meant.
He was pretty angry when I thought this was funny, until I pointed out the part I thought was funny: a redneck so ignorant that he was really trying to be an asshole, but completely failing.
 
morning
 
morning? You're not in Europe atm?
 
I am
it is 18:34 in my present timezone
 
5:35 PM
@Mysticial Embrace the Universal Greeting Time
 
> Now, instead of spending time figuring out what time of day is it for every member of the channel, we spend time explaining newcomers benefits of UGT.
 
It's quite a nice (UGT) Afternoon :)
 
@milleniumbug Sorry, but I think I'll pass. Did an image search for "universal greeting time", but didn't find anybody I wanted to embrace.
 
5:51 PM
@JerryCoffin First time I hear of "wigger"
 
There is a racial slur for a white person. But AFAIK, so few people know it that I question its viability to be used as one.
 
I know of wigger.
exactly what qualifies you to be a white nigger and whether or not this is worse than being a black nigger, I do not know.
 
@Mysticial Cracker?
 
lolno
 
> RPG logic: We'll give you the ship in the port, but we'll dock it in a port halfway across the continent at the end of the next dungeon
 
5:59 PM
@Aaron3468 What are you playing
 
Baten Kaitos. More than a few good plot twists and a lot of unique mechanics/puzzles.
 
@Puppy The impression I got was that it was mostly that he was well educated, and didn't act like somebody's stereotype of how he should. I'm really not sure though (and as I said, at least at the time he had no clue what it meant at all).
 
@набиячлэвэли Are you into RPGs?
 
@Aaron3468 Depends
 
@Aaron3468 I still can't forget about that one major twist right in the middle.
So fucking good.
Damn shame that the voice acting is that bad. Otherwise it'd be a masterpiece.
 
6:09 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Disc 2? I hated that. RIP my best healing cards and all my cameras Q.Q But it was a great twist
> Lyude: I'm like, sooo high all the time you don't even know Lyuuuude
 
Ven
Duuuuuude
 
Overall, great game.
Now I want to play it.
Let's see if I can find it for cheap on Amazon.
Wait what there's one guy selling it for 500 bucks.
 
is it good practice to use std::experimental?
 
probably all-original
Also why not just download the game image
 
Because I want to play the thing on my GameCube.
 
6:19 PM
oh, you have a physical one
 
Yes. I'm not a scruberino.
 
I'm emulating mine, but I actually own the game. When I played years ago using the gamecube, I got stuck in the garden and never finished. Now I'm almost done
 
wait, somebody bought a GameCube?
 
I did.
Years ago.
In a bundle with Super Mario Sunshine.
Some of my favorite games of all time are on the GameCube. Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime and its sequel, Mario Kart: Double Dash, Paper Mario: Thousand-Year Door, Resident Evil 4, Smash Bros Melee, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance...
Shit come to think of it there were a lot of great games.
 
@ChemiCalChems As the name implies, that stuff is experimental, so it's open more open to breaking changes than most. So, it depends on how you're using it. I'd tend to avoid it in production code, unless I was reasonably certain I'd be able to spend the time to fix things when it changed (if necessary).
 
6:34 PM
@JerryCoffin i see, thanks
 
In the end, pretty much the usual question of costs vs. benefits. If it's saving you a lot of work, it might be worth it. I'd try to think about how much it might change and how many different ways there are to accomplish whatever it's doing. If it's only saving you a little trouble, and might change a lot (so you'd have to do a major rewrite) it's probably not a good idea. If it's likely to change relatively little and saving you a lot, that's a much better bet.
 
aren't we getting std::variant in c++17?
ok, we are, yeah, but it isn't in std::experimental
so go boost or go home
 
QVariant :-)
 
6:53 PM
Only in Jrpgs, walking in on a soldier NPC while he's on the loo with an ahem particular kind of magazine
 
can i ask c program question here ?
 
Aug 19 at 11:58, by nwp
Got a C++ question? Go to the C++ room!
can you even fucking read
 
Doesn't say anything about asking C questions.
 
Guys how do I use pointers
 
7:01 PM
but isnt c++ just c ???
 
C != C++, unless C = C++ = infinity
 
Yeah with classes.
C == C++
 
@Nooble that breaks math
 
actually c == c++ is UB
 
7:02 PM
But it also evaluates to true.
wha
Is it?
 
@milleniumbug exactly, it breaks math
xd
 
@Nooble actually I'm only 70% sure
 
@Nooble it is, yeah
oh, no
that's a= a++
a==a++ may not be ub after all
 
721
Q: Undefined behavior and sequence points

Prasoon SauravWhat are "sequence points"? What is the relation between undefined behaviour and sequence points? I often use funny and convoluted expressions like a[++i] = i;, to make myself feel better. Why should I stop using them? If you've read this, be sure to visit the follow-up question Undefined beha...

 
lets see what it evaluates to then
 
7:07 PM
@Nooble according to the answer std::printf("%d %d", i,++i); is UB, and this means I see no reason why i == ++i isn't
 
c == c++ evaluates to false, btw
math is preserved
at least in gcc just in case it's ub after all
 
7:21 PM
Probably going to compile down to ` xor eax,eax`
 
lemme check
 
The phrase "sequence point" is officially obsolete, discarded in favor of phrasing like "sequenced before", "sequenced after", "unsequenced", "indeterminately sequenced". If memory serves, i=i++ and i = ++i are still undefined though.
 
@JerryCoffin Great, now I have 4 phrases I can't understand!!!
3
cool, so clang actually throws a warning
unsequenced modification and access to 'c' [-Wunsequenced]
 
> xor %eax,%eax
you called it @Mikhail
 
@JerryCoffin Why is it that it doesn't simply treat those assignments as in/decrements respectively?
 
7:25 PM
why would a compiler xor something with itself?
 
@Khaled.K idk, but that's how O3 leaves a == a++
you could argue it could optimize it more though
 
by complete omission?
 
xor (a,a) is always going to be false
 
inb4 Chemical wrote a int main() { int c = 42; c == c++; } program
 
@Mikhail by replacing it with a compile time constant
 
7:28 PM
@milleniumbug yes sir, problem?
 
@Khaled.K like mov al, 1.... I don't know the actual performance difference
 
@ChemiCalChems no side effects, which means int main() { } is equivalent
 
@milleniumbug i was positive it was false, but i had to test it
 
so the only job remaining is return 0;
 
69
Q: Any reason to do a "xor eax, eax"?

devoured elysiumxor eax, eax will always set eax to zero, right? So, why does MSVC++ sometimes put it in my executable's code? Is it more efficient that mov eax, 0? 012B1002 in al,dx 012B1003 push ecx int i = 5; 012B1004 mov dword ptr [i],5 return 0; 012B100B xor ...

 
7:29 PM
@Mikhail xoring garbage value by itself might be faster, dunno
 
0000000000000530 <main>:
 530:	31 c0                	xor    %eax,%eax
 532:	c3                   	retq
 533:	66 2e 0f 1f 84 00 00 	nopw   %cs:0x0(%rax,%rax,1)
 53a:	00 00 00
 53d:	0f 1f 00             	nopl   (%rax)
 
it’s an old assembly trick that appears in ancient Greek texts
 
that's the disassembly of the O3 executable
 
@LucDanton but clang doesn't do it :-/
 
so it doesn't only return, it actually compares it
 
7:30 PM
there’s no more respect for the classics
 
@ChemiCalChems ...that's a NOP
 
The xor eax, eax/retq is basically just the return 0 from main. The rest of the code has been ignored completely (probably dead code elimination because you didn't use the result after you did the UB).
 
@milleniumbug oh well
 
Okay, so more whoring GodBolt. Everyting but x86 gcc actually just does a mov eax,1 (like gcc ppc or arm)
 
i'm stupid
i'll get going
 
7:32 PM
@Mikhail Sounds pretty problematic on PPC or ARM, given that neither has a register named eax. :-)
 
std::cout << (a==a++); still has xor smth smth
 
5 mins ago, by milleniumbug
so the only job remaining is return 0;
 
0000000000000720 <main>:
 720:	48 8d 3d f9 08 20 00 	lea    0x2008f9(%rip),%rdi        # 201020 <_ZSt4cout@@GLIBCXX_3.4>
 727:	48 83 ec 08          	sub    $0x8,%rsp
 72b:	31 f6                	xor    %esi,%esi
 72d:	e8 e6 ff ff ff       	callq  718 <_init+0x48>
 732:	31 c0                	xor    %eax,%eax
 734:	48 83 c4 08          	add    $0x8,%rsp
 738:	c3                   	retq
 739:	0f 1f 80 00 00 00 00 	nopl   0x0(%rax)
notice xor esi esi
is that a NOP too?
 
no, a nop* is a NOP
 
i get nothing about assembly
 
7:39 PM
are you using linux
 
hey guys, I'm having trouble understanding the usefulness of rvalue references. I can't find any case where rvalue references cannot be replace by normal values and lvalue references
 
esi is the second argument
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist move
 
@ChemiCalChems Yes, but I can still std::move(x)
where x is just a normal variable
 
7:40 PM
@TheQuantumPhysicist but it returns typeof(x)&& or whatever you wanna call it
move constructors and stuff
@milleniumbug i do understand that, i mean i can't seem to figure out what is NOP and what isn't
 
it could return typeof(x)&... what difference does that make? Why do we have to call it typeof(x)&&
Let me make a better example
 
4 mins ago, by milleniumbug
no, a nop* is a NOP
 
@milleniumbug i repeat, i don't have a cpu brain, i'm stupid, pls explain
 
nopl is at the bottom, and that one is a NOP instruction
 
Say we have two function overloads: void DoIt(int& x) and void DoIt(int&& x). I can still manipulate the sources equally... I don't see a difference
 
7:42 PM
@TheQuantumPhysicist it does make a difference, you shouldn't move from a lvalue reference, but you should move from a rvalue reference
@milleniumbug right, so both xor eax eax and xor esi esi aren't NOP?
 
@ChemiCalChems I understand that there are new semantics for this, but why do we have to introduce any new type at all?
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist because you need different overloads to make different behaving constructors
 
@ChemiCalChems xor %esi, %esi is esi ^= esi
it essentially sets it to 0
 
@jalf so that can't be a NOP, it's doing something
 
@ChemiCalChems so it's useful only for constructors?
 
7:44 PM
lol what
 
@TheQuantumPhysicist i bet it can be used for more than that
 
Hi ♥
 
@ChemiCalChems wrong person to ping
 
@ChemiCalChems I'm trying to get how and why... I can pass something by reference and still call it temporary
 
@milleniumbug but i replied to you...
 
7:45 PM
the word temporary is used often with rvalue... and I'm trying to get what was not temporary with older kind of references
 
...you clearly haven't
 
I can still use DoIt(int& x) and play with x as much as I like and call it temporary
 
so i went back to 2012 to ping him?
 
my guess: you've removed the last digit by accident
 
user784668
7:46 PM
@ChemiCalChems Yes, congratulations.
 
@ChemiCalChems How did you even manage to do that? .____.
Oh, I'm late to the party.
 
@Morwenn it was a proof by contradiction
@milleniumbug possible
 
is no one talking on discord lounge?
 
@Khaled.K i wanna i wanna
@Khaled.K may i get an invite? or am i not allowed in there because of my rep level?
 
user784668
Does anybody have any idea why is std::make_heap required to do no more than 3 * (last - first) comparisons? The common heapify algo requires less than 2 * (last - first) comparisons in the worst case, so why does the standard require no more than 3 times the number of elements?
 
7:53 PM
@ChemiCalChems I'm not in discord lounge either
 
@Khaled.K oh
 
nwp
8:09 PM
@TheQuantumPhysicist The difference is that for int &&x you know that it is a temporary that will be destroyed anyways. You can freely gut it without causing issues. The int & will persist after the call, so messing with it may have unintentional side effects. When you implement DoIt you need to know which case you have. And you get compiler support that automatically marks the 42 in DoIt(42) as a temporary without you having to think about it.
there is the slight issue that you cannot actually gut an int, you usually need something with pointers, but maybe you get the point anyways
 
sure you can
just assign it with some totally random value
 
Ven
8:26 PM
@Puppy did you ignore me?
I didn't consider that possibility.
 
no
 
Ven
you didn't even look at that puppy video?
 
I did and it was hilarious
 
Ven
i wonder if he still has the puppy.
 
it's not gonna be a puppy anymore
 
Ven
8:27 PM
well yeah
 
@nwp Thanks.
 
8:45 PM
@Aaron3468 This is so trivial to fix, and yet, it's not fixed yet
argh
kitware being productive
 
@Fanael Look at my question history.
 
user784668
@CaptainGiraffe I know how it's done in O(n).
 
Yes, but the 3*N was curious.
 
user784668
> The common heapify algo requires less than 2 * (last - first) comparisons in the worst case
 
user784668
@CaptainGiraffe It's relatively easy to prove that 2n is the (unreachable) upper bound.
 
user784668
8:57 PM
Which is why I don't get why the standard specifies 3n.
 
9:07 PM
@Fanael My immediate guess would be that it's to allow more flexibility in implementation. Offhand, I don't know exactly what sort of heap they thought might make use of the extra flexibility, but there are a lot of variants out there, most (all?) of which meet the basic heap property required by the standard, but providing at least theoretical advantages for some specific operation or other.
 
9:17 PM
[Sorry, had to work for a few minutes there]. The variety of heap that occurs to me immediately is a B-heap. Offhand, I don't know the precise number of comparisons in the worst case, but it is definitely more than for a normal binary heap, so it can almost certainly exceed 2N. At the same time, it's engineered to work well with virtual memory (and probably also with cache) so in a fair number of practical cases it can be substantially (up to an order of magnitude) faster.
The original article in the B-heap, in case you care: queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1814327
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin The B-heap is actually a regular binary heap with only the functions for parent and child indices changed.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin And it's still a binary heap, so it's still pretty shit with cache. Tried it.
 
@Fanael Why would you say it is shit with the cache?
A heap is by construct very predictable in its memory accesses.
 
user784668
@CaptainGiraffe Because it still ends up making lots and lots of cache misses. Less than a regular binary heap, but still a lot.
 
@Fanael Undoubtedly not great, by any means (access pattern is still pretty random) but should still provide an improvement over a normal binary heap approximately equal to the number of levels that fit into a page.
 
user784668
9:22 PM
@JerryCoffin Yeah, there was some improvement, but it got balanced out by the additional complexity of calculating indices.
 
Access is random but the compactness should be great. I'd like to change predictable to compact in my previous statement.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin This is the part where I regret that I didn't save the actual results anywhere.
 
user784668
@CaptainGiraffe That's right, it's compact, but accessed randomly, and random access is what computers suck at.
 
(If my hunch is correct, you left out important information from the question. If so, please consider including a /tested/ SSCCE next time) — sehe 49 secs ago
Being psychic again
@JerryCoffin that fqdn is funny in context
 
@sehe You are writing fqdn a lot these days. I do agree on the appropriateness of acm queue hosting it.
 
9:27 PM
@CaptainGiraffe Depends on what you're doing and your standard of comparison. Consider walking through some items in order. If you compare to a normal (node/pointer-based) binary tree, a heap will probably give a pretty solid improvement--but a sorted array will be a lot better still.
 
@CaptainGiraffe I'm too lazy to type "host name"
 
@JerryCoffin With modern hardware I consider the linked list and related constructs to be more of a thought experiment.
 
@sehe I prefer just fqd (50 % reduction in numbers of hands needed to type it).
 
I can do your mom in O(1).
 
@JerryCoffin Thats a log N reduction. Impressive!
 
9:29 PM
@Morwenn Your mom is fqd in O(1) time complexity. Resource complexity is incomputable.
 
@CaptainGiraffe Linked lists, I agree. Then again, I'm fairly convinced they almost never were a really good idea. Trees...open to more question (especially hybrids like B-trees).
 
@sehe Your mom blows the stack among other things.
@CaptainGiraffe Did you already forget about iterator stability?
 
Heaps of stacks are queued. Contenders served in LIFO order
 
@JerryCoffin I please do recall the rolling drum memorys.
 
Why? Are they dangerous to consumers?
 
9:32 PM
@Morwenn I did.
 
:p
 
Am I mistaken in writing 'memorys'? My spellchecker tells me so.
@Morwenn please refresh me.
 
@CaptainGiraffe What?
 
Just give me a lemon scented paper towel.
 
user784668
@CaptainGiraffe toggles the refresh signal
 
9:35 PM
 
Thanks.
Those are stickier than I recall!
 
@CaptainGiraffe "memories".
 
@JerryCoffin No. I have memories of rotating memorys. (Disclaimer, not native speaker so I'm not allowed to make shit up).
 
should be rotating memory
 
I have memories of rotating memories. Feels quite off to me.
Aha @Mikhail put the finger on the error of my ways.
 
9:38 PM
Is this what you're talking about? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_memory
'cause thats like 1960s
 
@CaptainGiraffe I still have a few disk drives around, so rotating memory isn't all that hard to remember. Or did you mean drum memory?
 
Of course. Then again it was in the context of linked lists, which I'm sure Turing would have appreciated.
 
user784668
@JerryCoffin lol still having spinning rust in 2016
 
Drum memory is the one I was thinking about.
 
@milleniumbug sorry for stealing your joke
@CaptainGiraffe Do you have rotating memories of solid state memories too?
 
9:41 PM
Of course. But that would mean I'm under the influence of a regulated substance.
@JerryCoffin Nice answer. And thanks for articulating what I mean instead of what I type.
 
user784668
@CaptainGiraffe You mean you're not?
 
@Fanael Crap, I need to clarify that too. Food and Water is also regulated in quality and delivery.
 
nwp
@sehe you are cheating, that doesn't actually require psychic abilities to predict
 
It does.
 
@Fanael Too broke to buy one of Seagate's 60 TB SSDs.
 
9:48 PM
Because the SSCCE contradicts the assumptions
 
nwp
> Help teams to maximize their autonomy, individual mastery and make sure the team has a purpose.
something doesn't seem right there
 
Debugging stuff in the lab with students is nowadays an experiment in how Dalai Lama my temper actually is. Does anyone recall the question from last Thursday where the compiler optimized away an entire function with lot of work being done because the result wasn't used?
 
The 15TB looks like a bad deal, not only is the cost per TB twice the consumer cost, it doesn't have proportional redundancy or speed. I'm shocked that this behemoth is only twice as fast as a single SSD, when in RAID I've easily done 10x as fast...
 
@sehe :D
 
9:57 PM
@Mikhail If only I'd known--I could have saved so much on...something or other, I'm sure.
@nwp "Maximize their autonomy and mastery, then drive them like slaves!"
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