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00:00 - 17:0017:00 - 00:00

5:03 PM
@milleniumbug I'm usually a debianperson
"friends" recommended arch so I thought I'd give it a try
 
There are VMs for that
 
it was a vm
lol
do you think I'm that dumb
 
user1804599
@KretabChabawenizc not the right friends eh
 
rip in peace
 
I've always had suspicions
 
5:15 PM
@Morwenn :D
 
5:43 PM
@nwp Not having a problem running Clang on windows
also lol valgrind
 
nwp
@Puppy none of the sanitizers work as far as I can tell
which is the main reason to use clang
 
I run Valgrind in Travis during CI. Same for sanitizers.
 
lol santizers
 
nwp
@Puppy they are awesome
 
dunno
 
5:45 PM
I found several problems in algorithms I stole thanks to Valgrind and sanitizers.
 
right now I'm feeling like, "I'm shit and don't do bounds checking! What do I do?" answer: "Obviously instead of just doing bounds checking, you should run this tool to guess where you failed to bounds check!"
 
nwp
it doesn't guess, it shows you
 
that's... really not the point.
 
nwp
also things like integer overflow which can go unnoticed otherwise
 
it's fuckin' stupid to need a tool to tell you where you forgot to bounds check.
std::vector::at, problem solved.
 
5:47 PM
Feel free to add bounds checking to the code you don't control
Also, iterators
 
feel free to fix the code you don't control
 
@milleniumbug Yeah, even when your tools don't have a problem with std::vector iterators, they may still have a problem with std::deque ones.
 
also, some wrappers should be able to solve that problem, not to mention, lol standard libraries that don't have debugging iterators
 
nwp
@Puppy if you had a tool that tells you when and where you have UB for essentially free you would use it too
 
besies
fundamentally it doesn't really change the mechanics involved
you need a sanitiser because the code you're dealing with is shit.
either you wrote it, or some other guy wrote it, but it's still shit.
it's jjust dodging the problem of making the code not shit.
 
nwp
5:52 PM
it saves you tons of time finding out that the code is shit and where exactly it is shit which helps a lot in making it not shit
 
the ultimate problem is that you have to opt-in for safe features
Honestly at this point you can just use C#
 
Constructive discussions and stuff ^_^
 
@milleniumbug I think I pretty much made that decision, yup.
the design of the C++ stdlib is pretty dumb really
it should be like, operator[] throws exception for out-of-bounds, then a function named something obvious like dangerouslyFailToCheckIndexes if you really need perf and bounds checking is killing you
 
collection[5, std::nothrow]
 
implementations that don't provide EH are pretty fuckin' dumb too
 
nwp
5:56 PM
@Puppy that just makes C++ noob-friendly which results in shit code :P
 
...not really convinced by this argument
 
nwp
wtb a better joke/sarcasm indicator
 
@nwp Don't worry, it's not noob-friendly and there's already shit code everywhere.
 
@nwp Sorry, the sentence wasn't dumb enough so it flew under my sarcasm detectors
 
Ven
@Puppy operator unsafe[] :P
 
6:02 PM
Still, if I must fight shit code, I'd like to have every tool I can have in my disposal to make my job easier and/or to make the smell less annoying.
 
Ven
@Morwenn oh you.
this is so awful and terrible I can't even say anything about it.
 
unsafeUncheckedIndex
 
Ven
boundCheckYourselfLestYouWreckYourself(std::size_t)
 
@Ven Too late :p
 
nwp
but thats kinda the point of sanitizers, you don't need the safe/unsafe versions because turning on the sanitizer aka debug mode is equivalent to using the safe versions and release mode is the fast unchecked version
 
6:04 PM
 
nwp
nobody should change code for that
 
So no one has an idea? :(
 
guys... we have a problem
 
user1804599
oneOfTheFewCasesWhereUsingCPlusPlusIsActuallyReasonableIndex
 
@Borgleader A big one.
 
nwp
is it possible to make clang emit an ast and then read that ast to produce an executable?
 
yep
 
Ven
with LLVM IR in the middle
 
user1804599
top kek
 
6:17 PM
Two pointers may both be null but not necessarily equal. — Ali Caglayan Jun 15 at 10:50
wat
 
@Ven yep
 
@fredoverflow that's just plainly wrong
 
@fredoverflow I replied to that, let's see what happens
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow I think this has to do with pointer adjustment in casts.
 
nwp
6:32 PM
so after 10 days of using adnauseam it blocked 24 ads (and clicked on them)
while I like the idea its execution sucks
 
user1804599
6:55 PM
Go Zwitserland
 
Go Zweihander
 
We *def* don't recommended this, but Model S floats well enough to turn it into a boat for short periods of time. Thrust via wheel rotation.
wat
 
awesome
 
Please, I'm stuck, really...
 
7:11 PM
Become unstuck
Apply water and/or alcohol to dissolve/dilute sticking material
 
@NaCl: Stuck with this? (mod: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/f9763c57f9180334 )
 
..thanks
 
7:40 PM
^ dat kiznaiver
 
@Borgleader Pretty sure some will try :D
 
@Borgleader Every car can be a boat for "short periods of time" :P
 
7:55 PM
And every boat can be a car for « short periods of time » too ^.^
 
8:11 PM
It can be a stationary car for long periods of time
 
I hvaen't fixed a sinngle issue during the weekend :(
 
Heav yuo fxied toyp's thguoh?
 
Not evne.
 
Thta's odd.
 
8:14 PM
So punny.
So furry.
So beary.
Sehelry.
 
user1804599
Fap
 
Flap said the bird.
Fap said the gurl.
 
That's offensive
 
Not really.
 
Now you're denying my basic human right to express my opinions #triggered
 
8:22 PM
I just mispelled « gull ».
 
I'm pretty sure that is a bird.
 
That is.
 
Ven
Stephan T. LavaKEK
 
@Ven And « T. » stands for « Top ».
 
Ven
@lefticus @meetingcpp Every compiler is wrong. typedef char* p; const p x; // x has type char * const, not const char *
 
8:35 PM
^-- does anyone actually agree with that?
 
"Every compiler is wrong. typedef char* p; const p x; // x has type char * const, not const char *"
 
It obviously is, because it groups as const (char*) x;
 
@HWalters Depending on what it is he meant. Anyways. The phrasing is just bad, so I'll disagree with that.
@набиячлэвэлиь That's a bogus formulation of the correct thing. It doesn't "group" like that. It parses like that. I'd have to look up specs to come up with a decent wording, but ICBA
 
I found a suiting layman(/math(?)) term for that
 
8:38 PM
@Ven That whole twitversation is pretty off the rails
 
lol twitversation
 
Ven
@sehe it's a ruby on the thumb
 
user1804599
TABLE SELECT * FROM system.users ENDSELECT.
 
user1804599
DSLs are great.
 
8:40 PM
are you sniffing cobol again
10
 
Ven
@sehe sometimes o nmy wheelchair
 
user1804599
omg COBOL
 
user1804599
I ate Greek food today
 
user1804599
PARAGRAPH "hello world".
 
user1804599
I wrote an LL(k) parser in PHP today.
 
user1804599
8:41 PM
It was a delightful experience.
 
I did too... I had some ice cream
 
> >parser
> >PHP
> >delightful experience
The first two should never be used in the same context as the third, separate or otherwise
 
The thing is, as long as it gratifies his parsing fetish, anything is delightful.
 
Ven
@набиячлэвэлиь That's because you havn't used my amazing parser(s)!
 
I can understand feet fetish, but not parsing fetish
 
8:43 PM
@Ven Cool stuffs
 
user1804599
It's a nice thing for making web pages from data
 
Parsing is pain and frustration
@rightfold Web pages are data
 
Ven
I do not know why you'd star that.
 
@набиячлэвэлиь Wait until you see @rightfold parse using just his feet
 
user1804599
You can use TABLE with a SQL query and it'll automatically make a table with search fields, sorting, and pagination
 
8:44 PM
@Ven No good languages there :v
 
Ven
@sehe I cannot see what's that answering
@набиячлэвэлиь ofc, it's all untyped here.
 
@Ven follow the arrows
 
user1804599
And my keywords are case-insensitive.
 
Ven
@sehe doesn't work. literally.
 
@Ven Yes it does
 
8:45 PM
It does. Literally. If browser fluke, refresh
 
Ven
did that 5 times, from transcript as well. Every other arrow works.
 
@Ven 31230391 points at 31230395
 
user1804599
TITLE "Users".
TABLE SELECT id AS "ID"
           , name AS "Name"
           , email_address AS "Email Address"
           , password_hash AS "Password Hash"
      FROM system.users
      ENDSELECT.
 
@Ven Cool :)
 
Ven
ah
it's forward-pointing
the fuck are you doing to this conversation
but thanks I guess
 
user1804599
8:47 PM
I'm sick of not treating the DBMS as an integral part of the application, and tools making it hard to do treat it like that
 
Ven
@набиячлэвэлиь and the other way around as well!
 
@rightfold Well, its often advantageous to have many clients, perhaps with different code bases and languages, connected to the same database.
 
@rightfold +1 for indentation style
 
user1804599
    NO
    PROBLEM
    MATE
 
8:49 PM
@Ven :)
@rightfold Go use Bamboo.NET
 
user1804599
@sehe what is that
 
Heh, it's seeing punctuation on continuation lines at the left that I really like... and can't stand that many autoindenters are still behind on (yeah, it's a little thing, but hey)
 
@rightfold A prevayler implementation
 
user1804599
> Java
 
user1804599
No but really, that's not what I want.
 
user1804599
8:51 PM
Consider some business rule R.
 
user1804599
This is implemented as an algorithm in language L.
 
user1804599
User wants to filter and sort by output of R.
 
user1804599
Can't just do that if there's a million records and the algorithm isn't implemented in SQL.
 
user1804599
And you don't want to implement it twice because well DRY
 
user1804599
This kind of stuff happens all the time and all over the place and I'm getting sick of it
 
user1804599
8:53 PM
It's about the algorithms, not the data structures.
 
user1804599
The latter is ez mapping. Solved problem.
 
user1804599
I no longer believe in treating the DBMS as an external system that may be swapped out.
 
user1804599
And DALs.
 
user1804599
It's stupid. Put SQL in your views and be happy.
 
user1804599
There's no effective difference between db.query("SELECT c FROM ts") and dao.ts.map(t => t.c).
 
8:58 PM
That rant sounds good but I can't follow it so I have no opinion.
 
user1804599
The only difference is the interface, and the former is much more versatile too.
 
@Ven This took entirely too long. So, now I had to post it anyways stackoverflow-sehe.s3.amazonaws.com/…
 
user1804599
SQL is great for analyzing large data sets, so fucking use it.
 
user1804599
DSL master race.
 
Wat.
> - Bamboo.NET
> (failed google)
> - Java, fuck that
So much sense.
 
user1804599
8:59 PM
> Prevayler is an open source object persistence library for Java.
 
user1804599
googling bamboo.net yields confluence.atlassian.com/bamboo/…
 
user1804599
which is about CI
 
ITT Lobster dangerously close to inventing another object-relational mapper tool
 
user1804599
nonono
 
user1804599
The goal is to take ORM and get rid of the O and get rid of the M.
 
user1804599
that website is FUBAR
 
That sounds like an anagram of R
 
user1804599
broken links all over the place
 
user1804599
I see no SQL code in the example.
 
WTF. Did I promise any SQL code
 
user1804599
9:03 PM
I do, however, see an ORM, which I specifically want to avoid.
 
user1804599
I want ORM without the O and without the M. I only want the R.
 
Their wiki is broken. ;;
 
user1804599
And the R already exists. It's called libpq.
 
@sehe Stay away from rigidfold in rant mode, for she is a vicious beast
 
@rightfold You can't.
 
user1804599
9:04 PM
I can.
 
So you just want to interface directly with the Database?
 
user1804599
Yes!
 
... Why don't you just, well. Do that then?
3
 
user1804599
17 mins ago, by rightfold
I'm sick of not treating the DBMS as an integral part of the application, and tools making it hard to do treat it like that
 
It can't be that hard....?
3
 
9:04 PM
@rightfold You're failing really bad at looking. But I get it. You don't want to. So, don't. Just don't make yourself look foolish by misrepresenting things you happen to not want to look at right now
 
user1804599
I do, that's the point.
 
@ThePhD This is it
 
Is there like a danger with interfacing to the database directly? Like, do they have breaking changes in the SQL language they accept?
(I say this as someone with 0 database experience.)
 
Remember: this is rigidfold we're talkin' 'boot
 
user1804599
@ThePhD They'll never introduce breaking changes to SQL.
 
user1804599
9:07 PM
And if they do, DBMS vendors won't adopt those changes.
 
user1804599
Also, if you do a DAL, you still get problems with breaking changes if there would be breaking changes.
 
user1804599
They would just happen in a different place in your app.
 
Ah. So is this a rant in general about all the tools and abstractions people make that do TOO much wrapping of the DBMS to make it "seem" like something it's not (when really it's just a database in the end)?
 
user1804599
Yeah
 
I wonder if there's a minimal database wrapper.
 
user1804599
9:12 PM
They treat the DBMS as this scary incapable thing that needs to be hidden away.
 
Something that just abstracts away things like the differences between MySQL and PGSQL and stuff.
 
user1804599
Instead of embracing its true power.
 
user1804599
99.999% of applications don't have to support multiple DBMSes for the same database schema.
 
user1804599
It's typically either: support only Oracle forever, or support only SQL Server forever, or support only MySQL forever, or in the case I work on them support only PostgreSQL forever.
 
I guess that's true: usually there's sometimes migrations and stuff, but generally it's just The One Database Type, right? Whether it's PGSQL or MySQL or Cassandra (is that even a DB?)
 
user1804599
9:14 PM
Different DBMSes have different feature sets.
 
user1804599
For example, Oracle doesn't distinguish between the empty string and null (lol), but MySQL has no window functions (lol).
 
user1804599
Due to all these differences you're doomed to vendor lock-in anyway, unless you use a very basic subset of SQL that is so terrible you could better just quit your job and become a crack addict.
 
user1804599
Just like people use regexes all over the place for querying text, people should use SQL all over the place for querying databases.
 
user1804599
It would be nice if your SQL queries could be type checked while compiling your program.
 
nwp
@rightfold write a clang-tidy mod
 
user1804599
9:24 PM
Like how compilers type-check printfs even though the first argument is just a string.
 
user1804599
oh rad, F# can do this
 
nwp
make it
 
user1804599
oh nevermind it can't
 
nwp
I feel plonked
 
I'm going to sleep soon. I feel so tired.
 
9:32 PM
So I started watching Shounen Maid.
It actually seems like a decent show.
 
@Morwenn Sleep well.
 
@ThePhD Wil try :)
 
Try? Not able to sleep well?
 
The future will tell us.
And that sentence is horribly cliché.
 
> Chihiro is left homeless with supposedly no relatives after his mom died. As he worries about what to do next, his uncle shows up and plans to take care of him...Or is it the other way around?
> Shounen Maid
inb4 crossdressing
 
9:42 PM
2l8
bie boies
 
hi
 
@Morwenn Let us know how it went.
 
That cache thing I was working on Friday night. Turns out I fucked up. When I got it right, the prefetching speedups were on the order of 10 - 20%.
That's kinda too good to be true.
 
Too good?
 
What did you do wrong?
 
9:53 PM
It doesn't seem that huge, not even an order of magnitude kind of thing.
 
I had the prefetch stride wrong.
So it was prefetching the same small buffer over and over again rather than what the computation was trying to read.
 
Both the radix 4 and 8 cases see the 10 - 20% when the data doesn't fit in L3.
20% for the radix 8 case. That's the largest I've ever seen from manual prefetching.
Larger than the synthetic benchmark from a month ago.
The loop still passes the unit test.
Unfortunately, that particular loop is "easiest" one to do. And it isn't the one on the hotpath, so this doesn't translate to any global speedup.
 
Then why did you spend time on it :D
 
The benchmark is also single-threaded. I assume the speedup will probably shrink once the cores are fully loaded.
@StackedCrooked It's the easiest one to do of about a dozen of them.
 
9:58 PM
I see.
 
The ones on the hotpath are coincidentally the hardest ones.
It's more of a proof-of-concept for the all the TMP that's involved.
Finding just the right amount of template abstraction was also tricky. And I had to go-back-and-forth a few times with moving things in and out of the template abstraction layer before I found something manageable.
Radix 8 - no prefetch: 314 cycles
Radix 8 - L2 prefetch: 235 cycles
The code is slightly memory-bound. Data size is 66 MB. Total L3 size is 20 MB.
 
@Mysticial Interesting.
Did you find that templates can impede performance in some cases?
Or was it just about managability?
 
The baseline is 191 cycles when the whole thing fits in L2 cache.
@StackedCrooked There's an API layer between the low-level and high-level code.
If the API was too restrictive, then the high-level code would be really complicated. Same vice versa.
And finding the right things to abstract was also tricky.
I ended up putting all the pre-post processing lambdas behind a template object. Much of the compile-time config settings were thrown into a struct as static consts and passed in via another template parameter. And the prefetch plans were passed in as function parameters who types are templated.
They go at the end of the function if I decide later to make them variadic so that you can pass multiple of them rather than needing to wrap them first.
No std::tuple for now.
 
10:19 PM
What are you working on?
 
If this thing scales all the way up, it will very interesting to see what it does to the CPU temperatures. And I already get complaints from people about how it overheats their overclocked boxes. lol
@Aaron3468 Some subroutine in my Pi program.
 
From what I gather, it has a lot to do with hardware-level support for higher level operations. What does it perform?
 
It's a block-FFT algorithm.
 
Cool! So what will you use it for? I know fourier transforms can be used to speed up multiplications quite a bit
 
The large multiplication in my Pi program.
 
10:53 PM
0
A: Spirit Grammar To break Up a String by Number of Characters

seheGoing out on a limb, you just want to transcode hex-encoded binary into base64. Since you're already using Boost: Live On Coliru #include <boost/archive/iterators/base64_from_binary.hpp> #include <boost/archive/iterators/insert_linebreaks.hpp> #include <boost/archive/iterators/transform_width.hpp

Just use Boost they said. Dataflow iterators are so simple they said.
 
nwp
5 days to 200k?
 
I don't ever repcap these days if that's what you mean
@rightfold What do you mean by window functions here?
 
11:12 PM
@Borgleader Remind me at a less ungodly hour tomorrow.
Mostly just got to the hotel and it's the brightest 2AM I've ever seen :P
 
> ./sol/table_core.hpp:337:32: sorry, unimplemented: mangling argument_pack_select
Looks like I've gotten my third g++ ICE ever: travis-ci.org/ThePhD/sol2/jobs/138785115#L391
 
I think this might be the exact same "sorry, unimplemented" I've got a while ago.
 
And this one from the same lambda: travis-ci.org/ThePhD/sol2/jobs/138784516#L425
 
At least GCC says "sorry, not implemented" unlike MSVC which will just silently break or generate invalid code
 
May 5 at 14:44, by Griwes
./include/reaver/variant.h:558:9: sorry, unimplemented: mangling argument_pack_select
         };
         ^
At least yours points at a more reasonable place in code. :D
 
11:15 PM
@sehe True that.
Never forget when MSVC compiled my code gave no errors, and then just absolutely refused to run like 30 lines of code.
Just skipped right over it like it didn't exist.
 
What's the set K?
Like R are real numbers
 
@ThePhD cowboy cast or cowgirl cast?
 
@sehe Just some tmp. It did some complex type computation, and then the computation itself, and then returned a tuple.
MSVC just blocked it all out, and when the function return auto r = ... ended up as a void type.
Premium Release-Quality software.
 
@Shoe no defined meaning I think
 
I see. Thanks
 
11:54 PM
@ThePhD I believe that's the equivalent of a compiler putting its fingers in its ears because it doesn't like what you're saying
 
@ThePhD Sounds like UB, I've had similar stuff when trying to free forward declared pointers, etc
 
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