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1:00 PM
Because technically another TU could have void f(); in it, and then the definition of f would be needed.
 
Ven
There was a call f() though (with gcc at least?). But yeah, you're right.
Wait no, I'm totally wrong, gcc doesn't have it.
 
Most I tried didn't trigger a flush. In the end I still don't have an example which breaks my assumptions. I don't mean examples that directly mess with the stream buffer (rdbuf)
 
Ven
(Still wrong, gcc always call f())
 
@Ven I don't see it.
Used Ctrl+F "call"
 
Livestream of OpenSSL code exploration today at 5PM CEST (UTC+2) https://www.livecoding.tv/geal/ this will be fun :)
There's something to watch /cc @Borgleader @EveryoneWhoWatchesLiveCoding
 
1:04 PM
void f(std::ostream& os) {
    // Stream as a parameter so whichever stream you start with, this works
    os.setf(std::ostream::unitbuf);
    // Now EVERYTHING flushes unless there's an exception or the stream is in an error state
}
@Szabolcs ^
 
Ven
gcc 6.1, l49 with exceptions, l31 without. godbolt.org/g/xnAS77
 
@Ven Oh, your previous link was clang. My bad.
I didn't know godbolt now supports clang, so I assumed GCC without looking.
 
Has supported clang (and intel IIRC) for years
 
I haven't used it in years! :P
 
Ven
well, it's certainly proving useful.
Guess I shouldn't expect it be optimized then. I'll look at another way, it's fine
... Well, I wanted to toy with the memsan in clang, but it detects a container overflow in libc++'s std::vector::push_back
 
1:12 PM
First they came for the billionaires and I said nothing. Next they came for the millionaires and still I said nothing. Then it was p chill.
ouch
well fucking played
as a joke
 
Ven
:(
 
1:34 PM
> POSIX.1 permits pthread_cleanup_push() and pthread_cleanup_pop() to
be implemented as macros that expand to text containing '{' and '}',
respectively
crap
 
1:44 PM
lolwhat
 
I call it penis exception envy. But likely it's also guard against asynchronous cancellation like POSIX signals?
Threads are a hot mess if you look closely
 
user1804599
did somebody mention benis
 
Where is Cicada anyways
 
@sehe banned
 
Ven
stiiiiilll banned
 
Wow. I missed something there
 
Ven
it's been 3 months
 
I thought it retreated to discord
 
2:02 PM
'it'?
 
Ven
it did not
 
So she's also not over there?
 
@sehe cancel a thread?
that sounds like madness. maybe in C# but C?
 
yeah the thing that everyone avoids because it can't truly be made reliable. Of course it can be done. That's peanuts.
It's just (almost?) impossible to end up with a defined situation
The problem is, you really ought to defend against rogue signals too
 
@sehe yes every day
 
2:16 PM
well, if you could suspend the thread, change the instruction pointer to a stub that throws, maybe. but it would be hard if your cancel was at the exact moment it was in a function prologue or epilogue
because it might not unwind properly. you'd have to have intimate knowledge of the exception tables, if table based
 
Ven
In C# (well, .NET), you have a lot of facilities related to that, with a token system
but you need explicitly-cancelable threads, AFAIK.
 
and, what if you cancel a thread when a destructor is runnning. isn't it possible for the implementation to get messed up and just std::terminate almost right away because it thinks a second exception happened while unwinding? (because it got canceled in the middle of an unwind)
 
If a thread gets canceled, I assume it just gets canceled. If unwinding were involved - at all - there was no need for the hooks.
I imagine that the hooks are there for async signals (SIGKILL on the thread eg) and C clients
 
but what if you cancel a thread while it is unwinding? is it even possible for that to actually work?
 
The OS doesn't care.
 
2:23 PM
yeah the OS doesn't care, but won't the stdlib freak out and std::terminate because it thinks it is still unwinding, the next time an exception happens
I am not making tons of sense am I
I remember weird issues with terminate calls if I tried to interfere with a thread that was unwinding
 
Yes or no. It may freak out. Who knows.
One thing is certain, the next time an exception happens, it wouldn't be on that thread anyways
 
yeah, I just realized that, threads should be separate. I can't explain it myself
oh I remember... I had a stackful coroutine implementation, if it switched contexts while an unwind was running, the implementation freaked. because the same thread was suddenly doing something else, which threw too. boom, std::terminate
 
Ven
Unwind yourself lest you std::terminate yourself.
 
@doug65536 Well. I don't know what you were using, but Boost Coroutine has an "unwind" (IIRC) exception that you must propagate for that very reason
 
@sehe I wanted to see if you could do coroutines on windows without fibers and without any help from the OS. Yes, you can, but exceptions are messed up without fiber local storage
 
2:35 PM
45 mins ago, by sehe
Threads are a hot mess if you look closely
 
Ven
lol "if you look closely"
you sure know how to joek
 
Everybody uses them happily. Can't defend against everything, so we ignore it :)
 
I saw a talk on C++17 coroutines. they made them sound like the best thing since sliced bread. any chance of that actually happening?
they basically asserted that you could have tens of thousands of coroutines, easy
 
@sehe So he's just going to look at the code? I think I can do that by myself :P I might check out the VODs if there are any, but won't be able to watch live.
 
Me neither
@Borgleader Also, we can look at the code alright. I'm not sure we're remotely as qualified to do it though
 
Ven
2:45 PM
@doug65536 sure hope so
 
@sehe That's what we call shibari.
Well, maybe not for the mess part.
 
Ven
as hot as a chibre, ari
 
lol
 
0
Q: constant elements vs. constant array

fredoverflowEverybody knows how to declare an array with constant elements: const int a[10]; Apparently, it is also possible to declare an array that is itself constant, via a typedef: typedef int X[10]; const X b; From a technical and a practical standpoint, do a and b have the same type or different ...

 
@fredoverflow if this was C++, I'd say yes
 
Ven
@milleniumbug it's a game of lies
 
@NaCl sounds like gpu compute stuff
 
@fredoverflow Moreover, you can't assign aything to the elements of the const array, so it's probably just an array of const.
 
Ven
it definitely is the same type
 
@milleniumbug lol I was frantically looking for the output of the program until I realized it has no output :)
 
2:57 PM
@fredoverflow isn't const in the wrong place?
 
I love how you got three comments, two of which don't answer the same question.
 
Hmm, is it possible to have some like a relational database engine as a library?
 
@doug65536 Which one? const X and X const are equivalent.
 
@Shoe sqlite?
 
@doug65536 Basically, his idea is that you register a variable at some abstract type in one application and can access it easily with different applications
 
Ven
2:59 PM
@fredoverflow For the non-typedefed version, clang prints the type as const int [10]. For the typedef version, it prints int const[10]. But it doesn't matter, because they're equivalent.
 
it's such an goofy idea
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Wouldn't you need an external process running?
Like postres does
 
@Shoe No, sqlite runs entirely in-process.
 
@Shoe it reads/writes files/memory tables directly. no server
 
nice, I'll look it up thanks
 
3:00 PM
@Ven Okay, then the fix to my compiler is trivial:
data class ArrayType(var length: Int, val elementType: Type) : Type {
    // ...
    override fun addConst(): Type = if (elementType.isConst()) this else ArrayType(length, elementType.addConst())
    // ...
}
@Morwenn That's stackoverflow for ya :)
 
@fredoverflow const applies to whatever is to its left though
const int is merely tolerated
 
@Shoe If you're using .NET, there's Microsoft SQL Compact, too.
 
I think I'm going to use pony :P
maybe not
 
Ven
Pony is cool.
 
@doug65536 What are you talking about? You can write type specifiers, type qualifiers and even storage class specifiers in any order you want:
declaration:
    declaration-specifiers init-declarator-list<opt> ;

declaration-specifiers:
    storage-class-specifier declaration-specifiers<opt>
    type-specifier declaration-specifiers<opt>
    type-qualifier declaration-specifiers<opt>
 
3:04 PM
It's going to be a CLI application so I can virtually use anything that supports SQLite or similar tools
 
int typedef unsigned const x;   // perfectly legal
 
Ven
you're having a lot of fun, huh :)
 
what about const pointer to int pointer
 
Ven
int const * const, or const int * const
 
The const after the * is a syntactic special form.
 
3:06 PM
no, the int isn't const, just the pointer
 
const ptr<ptr<int>> // fixed
 
Ven
pee tee hair
 
where template<typename T> using ptr = T*;
 
that case is why I stick to const on the right. it is consistent with that scenario
 
Ven
;)
 
3:08 PM
@Ven Wait, spaces to the left and the right of the star? And I thought I was the only one who did it that way :)
 
@fredoverflow am I wrong?
 
> SQLite is ACID-compliant and implements most of the SQL standard, using a dynamically and weakly typed SQL syntax that does not guarantee the domain integrity.
:(
 
Wait what.
Isn't integrity the "I" in ACID?
 
Isolated
 
Ven
@Shoe in sqlite, il_entretint_le_phare is a valid datatype, and an alias for "int".
 
3:09 PM
@doug65536 Not sure what you're asking, but as quoted, the C syntax does not enforce any order on the declaration specifiers.
 
@Ven Is that french?
 
Ven
@Shoe yeah.
but date_me_pls is a type that's an alias for date. :)
 
@fredoverflow At least in the C++ standard, the grammar alone does not describe the syntax.
 
@Ven You got to be kidding me right?
 
I would not be surprised if the same held for the C standard.
 
Ven
3:11 PM
no.
but those aren't special cases, if that makes you feel any better...
When SQLite doesn't know a type, it tries to find one of its known type in string. "il_entretint_le_phare" => "int". "date_me_pls" => "date".
 
Ven
> This is a feature, not a bug. SQLite uses dynamic typing. It does not enforce data type constraints. Data of any type can (usually) be inserted into any column. You can put arbitrary length strings into integer columns, floating point numbers in boolean columns, or dates in character columns. The datatype you assign to a column in the CREATE TABLE command does not restrict what data can be put into that column. Every column is able to hold an arbitrary length string.
 
yeah, if you put weird stuff in sql lite table, it puts weird stuff in the table. it doesn't go slapping 0.00 in a field if you put "hello" in it
 
@Ven Yeah, doesn't sound like a feature
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure, for example static register long short unsigned void is illegal :)
 
3:13 PM
@milleniumbug typedef always felt insane to the core.
 
Ven
@Shoe hey, I'm just warning you.
 
I know :)
 
> the type specifiers may occur in any order, possibly intermixed with the other declaration specifiers.
 
other sql engines have their share of laughable implicit conversions and other unwanted messing up of your data
sqlite actually does a pretty sane thing: inserts what you said to insert
 
@doug65536 assuming sane conversion routines.
 
3:18 PM
by "other sql engines" you probably meant MySQL I think
 
yeah mysql is the main one in mind
 
@doug65536 Say, does it convert "0xa" to 1 if you put it in an integer column?
Ooh, better example.
"1.00" into a float column.
Pretty sure it's lossy.
If there's no way to recover what I said to insert (because it's lossy), I don't think you can say it inserted what I said to insert.
 
floats can exactly represent all integers from -2^24 to 2^24
 
Ven
> But SQLite does use the declared type of a column as a hint that you prefer values in that format. So, for example, if a column is of type INTEGER and you try to insert a string into that column, SQLite will attempt to convert the string into an integer. If it can, it inserts the integer instead. If not, it inserts the string. This feature is called type affinity.
SQLite is mythomaniac
 
@doug65536 But "1.00" is not an integer from -2^24 to 2^24.
 
3:20 PM
ah ok, I see what you mean
but what should it do?
store IEEE-754 floats?
 
Fail?
@doug65536 That's lossy too.
 
Ven
@Shoe
> If the declared type contains the string "INT" then it is assigned INTEGER affinity.
 
"1.00" has information that a representation of the number one doesn't.
It has two decimal places filled with zeros.
 
Ven
seems I lied for "date", though..:)
 
@doug65536 See here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…
> In a number with a decimal point, trailing zeros, those to the right of the last non-zero digit, are significant.
 
3:24 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes seems very reasonable. makes me wonder why nobody has forked it or added strict mode or something
but that is more of an engineering thing, where you only write down the appropriate number of digits for the precision of your data, isn't it?
 
@doug65536 This was just an example I thought would be familiar. I can think of others.
 
@Ven wow
 
Ven
warned ya
 
meaning, 1/3 of a m isn't 33.333333333333333333333333333333cm. It is 33.3cm if my tool measures in mm
 
"1" is different from "01" if the digits represent, say, dits and dashes in Morse code.
The first one is T, the second is A.
 
3:33 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes but I see the point completely. You specfiy the precision by using a specific number of zeros after the decimal
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ITT, Robot shows he's just into T&A.
 
@JerryCoffin What's that?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes "Tits 'n Ass", usually.
 
Usually said of horny boys who spend all their time chasing women...
 
3:39 PM
I wish there was an easy-to-use glob in C++17, but I couldn't find any.
 
old
 
your mum is old
 
@Morwenn I thought about that when they were adding regexes in TR1. How strange would it be to treat globbing as a different flavor of regex? On one hand, they clearly have quite different syntax--but on the other, the basic behavior and usage is pretty similar--supply a string, get an object, see if the pattern matches some string.
 
@JerryCoffin I thought of that too, but it seems just a bit too different to be a new flavour of regex. I guess that a dedicated parser would be faster.
But still, having such a things in the standard library would make the path stuff much more convenient.
 
3:47 PM
@Morwenn Wait, why can't that faster dedicated parser just be the implementation of std::regex for globs?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't see any reason it can't be.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Er, maybe it could, but would it gain anything more from being stuffed into regex?
Well, a glob function could then probably use any flavour of regex I guess.
 
@Morwenn Common standardized interface.
 
Time to write a join proposal to enhance both Regex and FileSystem?
 
@Morwenn Your glob function is more or less std::regex_match.
 
3:50 PM
Returning a directory iterator.
 
Java got it right by calling their regex class Pattern, but then got it wrong by only allowing one flavour.
std::regex also sucks for lack of standardised extension interface.
 
Yeah.
And cramming the flavours and options in the same interface seems a bit... tight.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...and people wonder why I sometimes claim that Java was intentionally crippled. So many ideas that weren't bad at all, completely ruined by terrible execution.
 
Can't just put PCRE syntax in a library and add PCRE support to existing code without changing to Boost.Regex.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ...or at least some other implementation, if not necessarily Boost's.
 
Ell
3:59 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes why is calling it Pattern good?
 
Ven
@Morwenn I read "Time to write a proposal to join both Regex and FileSystem"
At first I was confused at to how that'd look, but then I realized this was C++, so it's gonna look like shit anyways.
 
@Ell Doesn't specify the type of pattern--makes it much more reasonable to use it for either regex or glob patterns, for the obvious example.
 
Ell
I see
I would rather call it TextPattern or something but I guess it was inside a text package or w/e
 
Ven
Our ORM is mythomaniac
that's what's wrong with it.
Also the fact that it's a ORM
 
@Ell It's actually in java.util.regex :/
 
Ven
4:09 PM
> Go, which has increasingly been adopted as a systems language
ok
OH: "I don’t like your I-can-use-anything-as-an-adjective attitude'
 
Xeo
Oh wtf. I'm getting a weird space-like character in my google doc. It works like a space, even in notepad, but coliru highlights it and printing it looks broken... coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/1c54b2813cee65bf
@R.MartinhoFernandes, do you have any idea what that is? You're the resident weird-characters expert.
 
user1804599
@Ven Go is good.
 
Xeo
also, lol. if you "unshare" that snippet and run it, it shows up... somewhat correctly. cc @StackedCrooked
 
Ven
4:28 PM
@rightfold sighs
 
I c&p it and vim says it's just good ole U+0020 SPACE
 
Xeo
wtf
 
@Xeo Oh, that's U+0001.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sounds to me like something's going wrong in the CnP then. I believe it's a sequence of \xC2\xA0, for whatever that's worth.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah, FF seems to do something weird with c&p..
 
Xeo
4:34 PM
How the fuck does that character get into my spreadsheet cell :|
 
@Xeo JavaScript. Guilty until proven innocent.
 
Xeo
Maybe it's not even in the spreadsheet cell, but somehow gets generated during the xlsx export... or while loading the xlsx doc in C#...
gaaah
 
@Xeo Ctrl+A can produce it in some editors.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes That should just select stuff :<
 
Dunno how you got it.
 
4:40 PM
@Xeo Some programs will let you escape it though. Wordstar let you use ctrl-p to escape other control characters, and was popular enough that a few still work the same way (not sure it's what happened here though).
 
Xeo
The only idea I had, that might have produced it, would be shift+space, but I just tested that and it's fine...
I've only ever edited the spreadsheet directly through the webinterface :/
Oh, I'm noticing a pattern.
It only shows up in the texts that my colleague edited
And he's on Mac sometimes
maybe that has something to do with it...
 
@Xeo Apple also falls into the "guilty until proven innocent" category...
 
Xeo
Welp, I just found it in some of my texts too. So much for that.
bloody hell
maybe I can filter them in the .txt export...
welp, that seems to work...
 
4:57 PM
// The following line compiles in my IDE:
char * p = "hello";

// But the same line fails to compile now with a type error:
char * p = "hello";
const int answer = 42;

// Anybody wanna guess why? :)
 
@JerryCoffin on vim you escape it with Ctrl+V.
But there it displays as ^A, so it's hard to miss.
 
Xeo
Okay, I can filter it out in our export tool, and then paste the generated text back into the spreadsheet, if I want to...
sigh
texts.Add(text.Replace(' ', ' '));
that just looks so stupid without the comment above it.
 
Ven
@fredoverflow "the same line" and now there's 2?
 
If I add the second line, the first line does not compile anymore.
 
Ven
@fredoverflow ah, ok. and the type error is on the first line
 
5:03 PM
Yes. Sorry for being unclear :)
 
Ven
@fredoverflow and we're hunting a bug in your IDE, or a feature? :P
 
@Ven It was a deliberate decision on my part.
 
Xeo
do you implement T v = init; as T v; v = init; or something?
 
Ven
@fredoverflow because char should be const char *? and since there's now a const in scope, the student knows about it, and should put it on p?
 
> since there's now a const in scope, the student knows about it
Bingo!
 
So what do you think about that? Crazy or genius?
 
Ven
Since I guessed, genius.
 
Xeo
Crazy. They should have to add it in the first place :P
 
Ven
:P
The only reason I guessed is because I remember how much my fellow students (or my students when I was a T.A.) were bummed everytime they tried to implement a mutating function, and had a segfault passing it a string literal
 
@Xeo use '\u0001' instead
 
Ven
5:08 PM
otherwise, it'd have been impossible to guess your intention like I did (for me).
 
Always escape confusing characters in code that deals with the problematic characters
 
@Ven I have observed this as well, but I really don't understand why students want to do that...
mutate("hello");
...
Now what?
...
printf("hello");
...
Does this not print hello anymore?
How could we possibly observe the mutation?
 
Ven
@fredoverflow they expect it to be copied in-place, simply.
 
Ah, so they only want local mutation?
 
Ven
yeah
 
Xeo
5:10 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That doesn't seem to be the actual character, at least it's not replacing it anymore.
 
Maybe my const trick is terrible after all :)
There is no reason why I could not introduce const earlier, I guess...
 
Ven
:D
 
@Xeo Which language?
 
js culture is shit
 
Ven
that's for you to decide
 
5:12 PM
holy mother how shit it is
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes C#
 
unbelievably shit
 
Should work
 
Ven
"you don't say"
 
Unless it got mangled elsewhere and this I identified the wrong one
Just look at the binary representation.
 
Xeo
5:13 PM
Oh, it's actually \u00A0 - non-breaking space. coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/d5bd9e5ac550368b
 
Oh
That's common in rich text editors
 
"so this is a special case, but it's a feature" -- "but what if I want to treat it like every other case in the set?" -- "well, you can't but the closest thing is this solution which adds a callback to this" -- "No that wouldn't work because you have a race condition" -- "yes but most of the time it doesn't fail" -- "what if I want something more reliable?" -- "You can repeat this piece code in every callback after this action".
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes But it's still weird that it only appears sometimes. And shift-space (which I would've thought) doesn't produce it.
 
Option+Space on Mac
Ctrl+Shift+Space in Word
 
user3790646
My dynamic_cast keeps returning nullptr ._.'
 
5:16 PM
it means you can't do the cast
or... well... the cast fails
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm editing directly in the webapp, and that doesn't seem to do anything there at least. For my colleague, it may have been Option+Space, but it shows up in some of my texts too - unless he edited those for some reason, which I kinda doubt.
 
Ctrl+Alt+Space?
 
Ven
@Shoe lol if you dont fn(function (err, data) { if (err) return; ... EVERY FIVE FUCKING LINES
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Nope :/
 
@Ven yeah
 
5:18 PM
Maybe it varies with keyboard layout?
 
it's baffling how anybody would choose this technology
it seems written by a 6 yo
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Good guess, doesn't seem to be the case tho :(
 
can't wait for web assembly or whatever that's called so we can all do a jump together and dump this shit
oh wait, I forgot other imbeciles decided to use it on the server side of the web too
 
we are doomed
 
Ven
5:21 PM
@Shoe ScalaJS is fun
too bad scala sucks O(donkey) balls
 
2 more weeks
only 2 more weeks and JS will be a thing of the past
 
The only surefire way I know of doing it on Windows is good ole Alt+160, but that's unlikely to happen by accident.
 
I can do it
 
Xeo
Thanks anyhow, at least the replace with \u00A0 works.
 
The thing on Coliru was definitely corrupted. Nbsp works fine in browsers.
Always look at the bytes :)
 
Xeo
5:23 PM
Weird though, that it shows the same bytes here: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/d5bd9e5ac550368b (click "edit" and run it)
it's only broken in the shared view cc @StackedCrooked
 
Ven
Throwing an exception from a nothrow(false) destructor while unwinding the stack because a thrown exception.. will always call std::terminate()?
 
> NOTE: JSON encoding for the output failed due to invalid UTF8.
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, prolly because I break up the unicode character by iterating over the string.
 
I guess the fancy, tries-to-take-over-the-browser editor is buggy.
 
Xeo
yeah, that shows fine even in shared view
 
user3790646
5:26 PM
3
Q: dynamic_cast fails

Igor OksI have a base class and a derived class. Each class has an .h file and a .cpp file. I am doing dynamic_cast of the base class object to the derived class in the following code: h files: class Base { public: Base(); virtual ~Base(); }; class Derived : public Base { public: Deri...

 
Oops, missed my stop.
 
user3790646
Gotta try this out lol
 
Xeo
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sorry!
 
user3790646
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's been a long time!
 
Ven
6:01 PM
Tinkering with pipes: read file stream, break into lines and only take first. #purescript https://github.com/felixSchl/purescript-node-pipes https://t.co/vmLnpyGxaz
@rightfold @BartekBanachewicz
 
6:18 PM
thesis defense... tomorrow... oh boi
 
good luck
 
@ScarletAmaranth good luck
 
morning
@Ven The nothrow(false) has no effect here. You're throwing an exception whilst there's another exception active- terminate.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Welcome back.
 
6:27 PM
sup
0
A: HTML: Tab space instead of multiple non-breaking spaces ("nbsp")?

Khaled.KCSS <html> <head> <style> tab:before { content: "\00a0\00a0\00a0\00a0"; } </style> </head> HTML <body> <tab> #include &lt; stdio.h &gt; <br> <tab> <br> <tab> int main (void) <br> <tab> { <br> <tab> <tab> printf ("Hello, World!"); <br> <tab> <tab> re...

 
7:00 PM
@Ven for (auto&& file: path_to_file.glob(/* some regex */)) { /* ... */ } wouldn't look that bad, would it?
 
7:19 PM
@sehe Seheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Summon sehe.
ahaha
 
7:47 PM
bah range-based for
 
Second attempt to use KaTeX: failure again ._____.
I suck, lol.
 
@ScarletAmaranth get a rifle
 

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