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4:04 PM
haha
the traditional problem of programmers
"fuck, I have problem X, but I'm too lazy to solve it."
 
just embrace, it's a feature not a fault
 
lol
@ScottW absolutely
 
hmmm... what to do this weekend... more or less stuck with out internet
 
@Christian funny
 
@thecoshman uh, hai?
 
4:07 PM
@DeadMG hello...
 
merely pointing out that your internet seems fine#
 
@DeadMG yes... but this weekend I will not be able to get online...
 
get some software books and read them
 
it's a bit last minute for that :P
 
E-books
 
4:10 PM
though I could do with getting a nice up-to-date openGL book
 
up-to-date OpenGL? oxymoron there
 
I really want to start work on some openGL stuff though... cat's lib looks rather nice. and it would be pleasing to use openGL with out having to work out the mangled Java version of everything
 
@thecoshman > "It would be pleasing to use X without having to work out the mangled Java version"
true for all X
 
indeed
 
@DeadMG what is not up-to-date in OpenGL?
 
4:13 PM
uh
their horrifically fucking ugly C API?
2
 
Programming was so pleasant when I was using C++
 
COM's un-great, but fugly C API is triple-plus un-good
 
@sehe Interesting article; from my perspective, it fails to mention one relevant tidbit, which is that even if language composition were easily solvable it wouldn’t be helpful in practice, as shown by contextual keywords (e.g. LINQ in .NET) since they fundamentally don’t work when using a lexer, and many editors today rely on lexers to provide efficient syntax highlighting and further tool support. Any language which cannot be tokenised is fundamentally flawed.
 
It's fine.
 
@DeadMG that API is not the core of OpenGL (anymore), and enough wrappers exist
 
4:14 PM
"It sucks so hard, everybody wraps it!"
not really a positive statement
 
@DeadMG last I checked, OpenGL is not a C api. There is an C api for openGL however
 
It's fine.
 
@sehe (For instance, to my knowledge not a single syntax highlighter and not a single editor outside of VS get LINQ, or even simple context-sensitive keywords such as get, set and value in C# properties right.)
 
Actually most editors rely on regexps for highlighting.
 
@DeadMG I don't think you'll find a lot of C wrappers for opengl (you have glew and glload but that's function loading). Most wrappers are there to port it to another language, that doesn't sound that weird to me...
 
4:17 PM
@cat, you commit messages are... interesting :P
 
@JohannesSchaublitb Guy?
 
Any ways
home time for me :D
I shall see you guys on Monday
 
@CatPlusPlus But, but, the center D:
 
4:38 PM
@KonradRudolph Mmmm. I'm not convinced that get/set/value from/into/where/equals/join/on/let require context in that sense that you seem to imply (i.e. semantic context). They merely depend on the state of the parser (in this case, the state of the lexer itself). I'm pretty sure that Spirit::Lex would be quite capable of lexing this accurately
 
@sehe You can't base a lexer decision on a parser state.
 
@DeadMG Which is why I didn't say so.
 
well
 
> (in this case, the state of the lexer itself)
 
that's absolutely context-sensitive
can the lexer determine the token type as a finite state machine? no? it's irregular
 
4:40 PM
Spirit Lex is not a parser. The parser is built orthogonally on the tokenstream with Qi
@DeadMG It is. However, that is not hard to do and I imagine that all the editors outside VS that I actually use will just about get those context-sensitive keywords syntax-highlighted just fine
 
right
 
My point was, there is no semantic context information required
 
except virtually every lexer in the history of ever is only regular
 
@DeadMG Ok, granted.
 
4:42 PM
so it's just as bad as having a context-sensitive grammar
 
@DeadMG That doesn't make it impossible/unlikely to get syntax highlighting for c.s. keywords
 
true
it just makes it stupendously unlikely
 
@JohannesSchaublitb lol
@DeadMG weehoo. I'd be tempted to try it out right now (gedit,kate,geany, monodevelop, gvim) but I'm should be starting dinner and my daughter deserves some attention, really
 
@sehe They are not context-sensitive if that’s what you mean but they do require more context than a pure lexer can provide.
(If by “lexer” we understand an automaton who acccepts a regular language)
 
@KonradRudolph Define pure lexer aha you just did
 
4:44 PM
and even the more powerful highlighters (and most are) make lexing this correctly exceedingly difficult
 
True enough.
 
For instance, I have no idea how I would define this in a PCRE regular expression even though those technically accept much (!) more than regular languages
(I think they currently even accept more than CFGs but I never really looked at that)
 
Anyways, regardless of all this you made some true observations. And in the big picture it is certainly limiting (on the scale of composing grammars).
 
man
I hate refactoring my code
it always feels so much effort even for small changes
 
hmm you can create a PCRE regex that can parse something as complex as C?
 
4:47 PM
@KonradRudolph Pretty sure PCRE has positive/negative zero-width lookbehind/lookahead. Which makes it entirely non-regular
 
of course, let's say that identifier starting with v always are primary-expressions (non-types), to ease the parse.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb As in at the preprocessor level, easily. As in the result of preprocessing, diffcult and highly inefficient
 
@JohannesSchaublitb That's still context-sensitive
 
@DeadMG what context sensitivity there is?
 
uh, "Identifier starting with v"?
context right there, buddy
 
4:48 PM
an identifier starting with v is not context sentisive parsing
 
@DeadMG That's regular.
 
that's lexing
 
wat
 
wut
 
wait, brain fart, ignore me
I'm doing five things at once
 
4:49 PM
woot
I'm starting to reduce on parallal tasks: afk
 
I avoid that problem by procrastinating right now.
 
lol
me too :P
 
let your lambdas alone
 
I've used cp -r from Cygwin and now I have a directory which cannot be opened or deleted, but can be removed. :wtf:
 
4:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus Cygwin utterly fucked many of my folders on my HDD.
 
@CatPlusPlus you probably locked it
 
No, I did not lock it.
 
Cygwin? Can't use MinGW?
 
I want X11.
 
Then why are you on Windows?
 
4:52 PM
...
 
lol
i recommend to wait for wayland
 
...Beware of Puppy
?
 
@tom_mai78101 if you talk enough you'll find out :D
 
you better don't try it
 
It's werepuppy.
 
4:59 PM
Yes, this is puppy.
Say, anyone got a good read of this? I posted it. :D
 
@sehe Yes, that’s what I said.
 
This is VGMTrans, a NDS music ripper of some sort. Anyone interested in the source code?
 
@tom_mai78101 nope
 
@MooingDuck I'm curious how long of a pause should I wait for me to kick things in?
:(
And I thought people love coding to one heart's content...
 
@tom_mai78101 oh, that's true. We just don't necessarily care about each other's code.
 
5:11 PM
Oh.
Well...
 
@tom_mai78101 there's an unnamed user who has a puppy avatar who's known for being short with people who he sees as stupid. That's.... pretty much everyone. :D He's a smart dude though
 
@tom_mai78101 oh, see, now that's awesome
 
If we must beware puppies, can we give this a notice?
 
@tom_mai78101 not all puppies, just one particular one
@ScottW not you
 
5:14 PM
@ScottW
That's a adult puppy.
 
@ScottW BAD DOG
 
@ScottW
We need to take him to a vet
@ScottW Euthanize!
 
@tom_mai78101 uh, that's a little.... O.o
 
@ScottW @MooingDuck That's a name.
 
@ScottW no, I just mean, Euthanizing a pet is a little extreme for the actions that preceeded it. I'm not offended, just wondering if he intended "neutered" instead
 
5:17 PM
@ScottW Sorry, Euthanize, people just usually can't understand your name when all I'm asking for your cooperation for a vaccine.
@ScottW Euthanize is a dog with the only Mad Dog Disease cure in its genetic form.
@ScottW We need to extract the genes.
 
@tom_mai78101 you've totally lost me so I'm focusing on my work again
 
This should be WTF worthy, I guess. :/
HOLY...CLOCK.... 1:20 AM. Well, gotta go
I'm half way around the globe
What time do you sleep, normally?
 
I'm gonna start a downloading spree at Software Engineering Radio now.
 
@FredOverflow Long live the man, for we couldn't do what he could do.
 
@tom_mai78101 Could? Is he dead now?
 
5:22 PM
@ScottW That's... pretty much sums me.
@FredOverflow I didn't imply that. I don't suppose you will survive the downloading spree though.
 
@tom_mai78101 Oh sure, I'll just download a dozen episodes or so :)
 
Currently, I'm playing with a green caterpillar on my pencil.
@FredOverflow That, my friend, you shall be addicted.
 
DSLs, agile, scrum... meh :(
 
@FredOverflow R.I.P.
 
Akka and OS/400 sound interesting, though. Oh, and quantum computing!
 
5:24 PM
How do you do an /emote in here?
le cries for @FredOverflow
 
@tom_mai78101 We don't have such nonsense here.
 
Aw...
 
@ScottW I just lost the game
 
@MooingDuck You don't hunt? It's not duck season.
 
@ScottW "It is not enough that I should succeed, others must fail."
 
5:26 PM
Is it duck typing season at leasT?
 
@ScottW good day to be bovine
 
@ScottW Duck Season!
@ScottW flings my beak around and around
I miss Elmer Fudd.
Currently playing at my workstation. I call this, My Work! (TM)
 
@tom_mai78101 that's a fascinating teamwork game
 
@MooingDuck No, uh, it's a game I found on Google
 
teamwork game/social experiment
 
5:31 PM
 
@tom_mai78101 does that make it no longer a facinating teamwork game?
 
And how I loved trolling in there.
 
@tom_mai78101 I loved playing it and just analyzing how the players interacted. fascinating
 
Xeo
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: The international zoo. [c++] [c++11] [c++-faq]
 
@MooingDuck If you are able to combine "trolling" and "multiplayer aspects", you will get a fascinating game.
 
5:32 PM
@tom_mai78101 single player trolling isn't nearly as amusing
 
@MooingDuck Well, i don't think multiplayer aspects have single player included.
 
@tom_mai78101 if they were, my previous statement would have been meaningless
 
@MooingDuck It's meaningless ever since you played the game.
I kind of missed this game the most.
International Zoo, eh? Welcome to Shinx Area.
Where all Shinx have sad faces looking at you.
 
Xeo
yesterday, by Tony The Lion
I find it strange to have a German speaking bonobo, a Polish speaking cat, a Flemish speaking Lion and a Portuguese robot all talking to each other in English
:)
We also got the puppy
 
@Xeo The more I read that, the more it sounds like Pokemon.
I have way too much time spent on the Internet. I should probably go.
See ya! Will bring back more trolls and gnomes!
 
6:00 PM
@Xeo The pup's native language is English though isn't it?
 
Xeo
@MooingDuck Sure, but that doesn't change anything
And thanks for reminding me of the cowduck
 
@Xeo it's less ironic that he's speaking English
@Xeo also English
 
Xeo
So, is that any less international? :P
 
@Xeo it diminishes the irony of them all speaking English
 
@MooingDuck Woof, I say.
 
6:04 PM
@DeadMG I can't remember if you were American or EU or what-have-you though.
Not that it's relevant to the discussion at hand
 
Xeo
lol, the puppy being a merkin
Funny thought
 
I am most definitely English
 
Xeo
lol, MC 1.2.4 Splashtext: "Place ALL the blocks!"
Oh wait, it doesn't originate in 1.2.4. Damn.
 
is somebody here doing some cuda stuff?
 
@bamboon I've never played with cuda
 
6:21 PM
hi guys!
 
Hello
@bamboon I've been wanting to do some OpenCL stuff, haven't got around to it though.
 
I wonder, if I look at <math.h> content, I can see only function-header definitions of sin(), cos() etc, but not the body of this functions...

I want to know exactly , how in standart C library, sin() or cos() count are realized...
where can I exactly look at the body of these functions ( their realesations ) ?
If it doesn't exist in <math.h> header
where can I find it?
As I understand in this header, there are only function definitions with arguments, but with NO body with...

I want to know, what aproximate method is used in standart C lib?
 
@user1131997 I've heard they use approximation using a little calculus trick that I knew once but forgot
 
Taylor series?
 
6:28 PM
@MooingDuck there are many methods, trapeziodal rules and etc... the main point of my question, which EXACTLY method the used...
 
yeah, taylor
 
@user1131997 for which C library implementation? They're probably different
 
Standard C doesn't care what method is used
 
becuase different methods has different asymptoic
 
6:29 PM
@user1131997 you may have to look at the source code for your compiler (theoretically, though I doubt any do this)
@user1131997 I believe MSVC's definitions are closed-source, but I am unsure
 
@MooingDuck yeah, I always forgotten about GCC , that it's open source, becuase I'm using Windows and C++ compiler, which is closed, so always forget about GNU products
 
@user1131997 I don't think there's a way to figure out how MSVC does it.
 
MS's CRT source is included with Visual Studio.
 
@CatPlusPlus oh yeah, dunno how I forgot that
 
@CatPlusPlus If you press F12 to go to some *.h functions, I shall see only its header, where are declared only names of functions with arguments, but no body
may be... I'm mistaken... But I go to libs with jumping via F12 , I didn't find any body structure of those functions....
 
6:32 PM
CRT is compiled to a DLL.
 
or static lib, if you're a static linker like me
 
Also sin/cos might be compiled as intrinsics on x86.
 
damn
hurry up and get late, I need to start codingz
 
Who has worked with llvm virtual machine? Can you tell your impression with this VM?
is it better than .net or jvm? or it's only for closed aims? and it's bad sence to compare these VM?
 
6:39 PM
@user1131997 make a file that calls cos with a breakpoint, and step into the function. MSVC will either take you to the source then.
 
@ScottW kill -9 $me then reboot pc and tell $me, please :) joking
@MooingDuck pity, but won't :( it will redirect me to WinDbg program and I shall go through binary-debugging :( which I don't understand at all
or if you shall pass the WinDbg you just go through code in math.h each line and that's all :(
 
@user1131997 that means (A) it was written in assembly or (B) Windows didn't share the source for that file or (C) your install got messed up. I'd go with A.
 
@MooingDuck or maybe A + B
 
@user1131997 I'm testing on MSVC10
@user1131997 huh, I have no idea what file it's in, all I can find is the dissassembly.
@user1131997 judging by the function calls with no names though, I'd say it's using a library, so we can't see the source.
 
7:16 PM
Alright guys. I got a big pile of legacy code that calls a macro with printf-style format and associated variadic arguments, and I need to put that into an std::string. And I can't go and make usage less retarded, so I need a fancy way to somehow output vsprintf (or similar) into an std::string. Anybody got a lead?
 
The return type of operator[] for std::move_iterator is unspecified. That seems unnecessary but oh well.
 
hmm
why is it not value_type&& ?
 
I don't now. It's reference for operator* where reference is value_type&&. Weird right?
 
i wonder whether we should have a typedef "rvalue_reference" in iterator_traits<>
ohh
i see now!
 
@EtiennedeMartel mystring.reserve(1024); mystring.resize(vsprintf(&mystring[0], "FORMAT", vars....));
 
7:18 PM
@LucDanton i have no idea why it is not just value_type &&
 
@MooingDuck Remember, the trick is that it must be a macro. I think. Otherwise it's not so hard to figure out yeah.
 
@MooingDuck Hmmmm.
 
@LucDanton why does it have to be a macro?
 
Is that &mystring[0] only guaranteed to work in C++11?
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yes.
 
7:20 PM
Damn. I'm still stuck on C++03.
 
you can probably rely on it also in c++03
 
I'm using VC++9.
 
@MooingDuck I don't see where the problem is if it's otherwise a char*/char-array conversion to std::string.
 
std::vector<char> xs(1024); xs.resize(vsnprintf(&xs[0], xs.size(), ...)); std::string str(xs.begin(), xs.end());
buffer, not xs. But you get the point.
And quest for resurrecting Goblin Camp codebase continues.
 
Yeah. Thanks everyone.
 
7:25 PM
Dun dun dunnnn.
 
@CatPlusPlus i think that is a bad idea, because the vector will unnecessarily fill all chars with \0
 
So?
I never know which functions from C string handling terminate with \0 and which don't.
 
i don't expect you to do anything
 
It's just so terribly broken, you have to code as defensively as humanly possible.
 
well if you don't then you have failed anyway because you rely on the return value of vsnprintf already
if you don't know how it behaves with the \0 then this code is buggy
@CatPlusPlus IMO that is exactly the wrong thing to do
 
7:27 PM
xs.size() - 1 there should be.
 
if something is broken you need to code as offensive as possible
 
Anyway.
 
to find its bugs and learn how to work them around
 
C string handling is broken beyond repair.
 
I want to play Earthbound. Time to whip out the emulator.
 
7:30 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb not worth my time. Code defensively. Then my coworkers can't break stuff on accident.
 
i disagree
you have a worrying definition of "can't break"
you seem to think that if something still compiles and appears to run, it isn't broken
the moment that one invariant in your program is broken you can put it into the bin
 
Defensive programming doesn't run contrary to that. It's not cargo-cult zeroing everything and crossing fingers.
 
@JohannesSchaublitb no, Defensive programming, zeroing out that stuff, means that it still works even if someone changes everything else. I'm not hoping it still works. I know it still works.
 
Bduh, Aero crashed on me.
 
Impossibru!
 
7:37 PM
hmm, my Windows Event Viewer says "Main.java" threw an exception on line 341. My main.java file only has 89 lines.
Wonder who's "Main.java" had the error?
@JohannesSchaublitb defensive programming means I don't care how it behaves with \0, my code now works both ways. If someone changes that function, I don't care. My code still works fine.
 
It never did that before. :(
 
Would someone be able to explain what the difference is between WindowFromPoint and WindowFromPhysicalPoint is?
I mean, what system are the coordinates in for WindowFromPoint
(I assume they are pixels for Physical)
 
Rapid Environment Editor seems to be causing some glitches.
 
@SethCarnegie msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/… "Desktop Window Manager (DWM) scales non-dots per inch (dpi) aware windows when the display is high dpi. The window seen on the screen corresponds to the physical coordinates. The application continues to work in logical space. Therefore, the application's view of the window is different from that which appears on the screen. For scaled windows, logical and physical coordinates are different."
 
And now stupid environment variables aren't expanded properly.
 
7:44 PM
@MooingDuck you don't know whether your function still works when something changes. the change could break your code.
you only made your code robust against some changes.
 
@MooingDuck that's annoying
 
Y U NO EXPAND VARIABLES.
 
if someone renames "vsprintf" to "lulzprintf" then your defensively coded code breaks
 
@JohannesSchaublitb if they change that bit from working with NULL termination to not, or vice versa, I know my code still works. Of course I can't know for arbitrary changes.
@JohannesSchaublitb if someone changed vsprintf to not NULL-terminate, anything after would then break. Unless you had already set the NULL terminator like we said. Then everything continues to work.
 
you are trying to protect against things you have no control over. if they change their interface you have to check your code anyway whether it still works with the new interface
 
7:47 PM
@JohannesSchaublitb you're right, my argument makes no sense. I'm a lousy debater. :/
 
you cannot say "ah, 2 months before at that weird afternoon i decided that I cover those two cases. that's why i can now lean back.".
 
@JohannesSchaublitb I stand by my claim that defensive is better, but not for any of the reasons I listed
 
PATH=(null)
GREAT.
 
Fucking useless piece of crap.
Graah.
 
7:49 PM
@MooingDuck I feel your pain man, so am I
 
This will end in tears and broken registry.
3
After manually expanding variables and logging out second time it finally works.
What a crap.
From other MS fun — CTRL+C-ing nmake:
NMANKMEA K:E  : ffaattaall  eerrrrooNrrM  AUUK11E00 55:N88 M::f A atKtteEear rlm:m i iennfraaartttoeeardd l  U bb1eyy0r  5ruu8oss:ree  rrUt

1eSS0rtt7moo7ipp:n.. a

'ted by user
 
Woa.
I think you broke it.
 
It probably had mental breakdown.
 
This beer is gooood.
 
8:06 PM
ok
I have a problemo
I ate and I still feel hungry
now all I can think about is going to the shop and buying 999999tons of chocolate
 
Why is that a problem?
 
cause it makes me A) fat and B) poor
 
Well, don't buy 999999 tons.
Just one will do.
 
lol
 
It's all about scale, ya know.
 
Xeo
8:17 PM
Yeah, a puppy doesn't need much
 
Wait, I forgot about that. Don't eat chocolate, that'll kill you.
 
8:52 PM
lol
 
Those crazy russians.
 
Tsar Bomba :)
 

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