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Xeo
5 mins ago, by Xeo
@melak47 what version of VS?
 
A review of Gimp
> Just horrible... One of the worst image editor I've ever seen. And this is example how image editors shouldn't be done. Well, if you look at the roots of this application, then everything becomes clear, as it was made first for Linux and this OS is infamous by its bad design choices and lack of wise ideas, that's why only nerds likes it.
 
Xeo
2012 fucks up the list-init in weird ways
 
> I've attempted to download and install to windows 8 3 times now. I give up!. It downloads the installer package and runs the installer but there is no .app to open the software to use it. Is there something more one has to do to open the program so one ca use it?
Basically every negative review is made by a luser.
 
@Xeo using boost 1.56 and VS 2013 without ctp
 
Xeo
10:06 PM
> White House sides with Oracle, tells Supreme Court APIs are copyrightable
You fucking what.
 
merkins
 
Can repro.
 
@Columbo Did you read that bit I posted about how sourceforge is packaging gimp with adware
 
@Prismatic yep, that's why I came to that page in the first place
 
I'll investigate after I finish this movie.
 
10:07 PM
sourceforge is such garbage. There's this one project I occasionally contribute/get involved with but its on sourceforge and its so infurating
I should tell the author to move to github or something
 
lolforge
 
Xeo
> Oracle said the administration's position "affirms the importance of copyright protection as an incentive for software innovation."
Gawd.
 
@CatPlusPlus You like Github?
@Xeo <sup>*[citation needed]*</sup>
 
@Xeo wtf
 
10:09 PM
fuck copyright
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes still happens with array instead of vector. but enjoy your movie :)
 
@Xeo Does it matter what they think though?
its up to SCOTUS right?
 
Oracle is a gigantic bunch of fucking cunts, anyway. IIRC the Java installer fucking attempts to inject the Ask! toolbar into your browser. Pathetic.
 
Xeo
4 mins ago, by Xeo
> White House sides with Oracle, tells Supreme Court APIs are copyrightable
 
@Prismatic ... Supreme Commander Of The United States?
 
10:11 PM
Supreme Court
 
Xeo
@melak47 close enough
 
What I meant was, it doesn't matter what the white house tells the supreme court... at the end its still up to them
 
Xeo
> The high court in January asked for the government's views on the closely watched case.
 
@Prismatic You're right.
 
Xeo
@Prismatic Sure. But still.
 
10:15 PM
I don't actually know how I feel about APIs and copyright
 
user3010322
math.max // Time to get sued
 
@Prismatic maybe it'll all work out for the best... Oracle will patent all the shitty APIs and so all future APIs must be awesome!
 
API design is definitely a thing and its not trivial to come up with a good one. I'd be sympathetic to Oracle if some other company came along with another programming language but copied the API in its entirety
 
Implementing the standard library is now copyright infringement.
 
user3010322
^
 
Xeo
10:17 PM
time for sleeps
 
nn
 
user3010322
OpenGL, C++ Standard Library, All of .NET's libraries...
 
user3010322
@Xeo Nighty night.
 
@Rapptz copywritable and copywritten are different
 
Copywriting is written content conveyed through online media and print materials. Copy is content primarily used for the purpose of advertising or marketing. This type of written material is often used to persuade a person or group as well as raise brand awareness. Copywriters (known as continuity writers in broadcasting) are used to help create direct mail pieces, taglines, jingle lyrics, web page content (although if the purpose is not ultimately promotional, its author might prefer to be called a content writer), online ads, e-mail and other Internet content, television or radio commercial scripts...
 
10:18 PM
except the committee wouldn't prevent people from implementing the standard
 
neither would khronos because they'd want people to implement OpenGL drivers
 
> Hope you are doing great today!!!!
 
user3010322
@Prismatic Now put that on the flip side: Someone writes a graphics API that has a lot of good features. You want to implement it yourself, but have a compatible API.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The difference between "box can be locked" and "the box is currently locked"
 
user3010322
10:20 PM
Should you be liable for copyright infringement even if you implemented everything yourself?
 
@MooingDuck What. You didn't read.
 
@Ted You can't have a compatible API unless you copied their API
 
Copywriting is written content conveyed through online media and print materials. Copy is content primarily used for the purpose of advertising or marketing. This type of written material is often used to persuade a person or group as well as raise brand awareness. Copywriters (known as continuity writers in broadcasting) are used to help create direct mail pieces, taglines, jingle lyrics, web page content (although if the purpose is not ultimately promotional, its author might prefer to be called a content writer), online ads, e-mail and other Internet content, television or radio commercial scripts...
 
it's copyright not copywrite
 
user3010322
Blah, sorry.
 
user3010322
10:21 PM
There.
 
heh
 
If you think that coming up with an API requires a lot of creative work, then it should be valid grounds for copyright. Deciding what functions and a class should have, what classes you need, how everything interoperates is a hard. In fact I find it harder than implementation in most cases
 
user3010322
@Prismatic Right, and the question is even if you wrote hand-crafted ASM underneath that API in that language and they only did some handwaving weak bullshit instead, should they be able to shut your code down with a copyright claim?
 
@Ted Yes? Why does the implementation matter? Its not the implementation's copyright that's under fire
 
user3010322
That's a horrible opinion and decision.
 
10:24 PM
@Prismatic An API is a work of engineering.
 
what's with the nick change
 
He'll never get a PhD with a 3.7 GPA
 
user3010322
See: the difference between luajit and vanilla lua.
 
So he changed his name.
 
user3010322
@Rapptz No, but I won't be readmitted to my original institution on a bullshit technicality.
 
user3010322
10:25 PM
Even with a 3.7 GPA.
 
I'm just kidding bub
 
user3010322
So. RIP the Dream.
 
you actually cared for PhD?
 
rip
 
Just go to UoM.
 
10:25 PM
rip
 
user3010322
It'd be great, though, that anyone who implements "The Lua API" will be subject to the wrath of PUC-Rio, liable to be copyrighted into a corner and forced to either pay to keep it going or be explicitly granted immunity.
 
user3010322
All of those source-compatible rewrites? Up for smoking.
 
user3010322
Even more reason to have your source code and then run it through an identifier and function randomizer upon compilation.
 
user3790646
damn headache
 
@Ted How people choose to enforce their copyright is another issue. If they want to be dickbags then whatever. But coming up with the APIs in the first place is copyrightable work imo
 
10:30 PM
@Rapptz beaten the wraiths yet
 
Think about the proposals that get sent to the committee
 
no
 
@Prismatic FFS It's "copyright", not advertisement.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you screwed me up by pasting that wiki one box like 5 times :p
 
@Prismatic laffo
 
10:31 PM
@Prismatic It shouldn't be.
 
I got this unease of stage and there's a mission where you play on a stage and it's so well done I got nervous IRL
 
@Prismatic heh he was trying to make that very point
 
user3010322
@Prismatic They don't deserve the right to say "this collection of letters and numbers arranged in this specific manner cannot be done by anyone else in this legal jurisdiction ever".
 
the game is so well done damn
 
I wish I could get past the Wraiths
 
10:32 PM
@Prismatic It's not a creative work. It's a work of engineering. Yes, it requires creativity, but that's not quite the same, and is true for problem solving in general.
 
I wanna have fun again but all I get is frustration
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's a little disingenuous. The two aren't mutually exclusive
 
@Rapptz lowering the difficulty may be the same as quitting
but abandoning the game sure is more like quitting than that
 
Some of the best engineering solutions to problems are thinking outside of the box in a creative way
 
@Prismatic Burden is on you to explain how it is a creative work.
Requiring creativity is not enough a criterion.
 
10:33 PM
Programming is art.
 
@Prismatic Doesn't make it a creative work.
@Prismatic Those things you patent.
 
Is it enough for me to say I feel that creating an API fits the following definition:
> Creative works have in common a degree of arbitrariness, such that it is improbable that two people would independently create the same work. At its base creative work involves two main steps--having an idea, and then turning that idea into a reality. The term is frequently used in the context of copyright
 
@Prismatic "such that it is improbable that two people would independently create the same work"
Just look around.
 
math.min is common API
string.split is common API
etc
 
@Ted sup ted
 
10:36 PM
@AlexM. I'll keep trying.
Got nothing to do today anyway.
 
Regarding simple enough functionality the API will probably be really similar
But the farther out you get its gonna be pretty different
Just look at std::vector
Why the hell is it called "vector"
 
@Rapptz this may seem obvious but
 
api means nothing and you're an idiot if you think damaging interop is a good thing
 
have you considered farming?
 
farming what
 
10:36 PM
XP
leveling up
 
@Prismatic Because that's common terminology.
 
I'm stuck here
 
you can load a previous save
 
and do the baron shit again
 
user3010322
10:37 PM
Lol. All the template code in the world breaking because nobody can use common function names. Hah.
 
autosave is so bad
 
don't worry if you're that underleveled
you'll do the baron shit N hours from now
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Which other languages that implement contiguous arrays use vector? or "map"? How many standard libraries have "unordered_map"s?
Lots of them encompass the same functionality with different names
 
@Prismatic It's computer science terminology
 
i'm gonna copyright "foo"
 
10:38 PM
I pity the foo
 
lol you think vector or map are uncommon
 
Are you going to argue it is improbable two people would use a common computer science term?
 
isn't map used for something completely different in functional languages
 
even if it was then so fucking what
 
@CatPlusPlus these are common; but unordered_x is fairly uncommon
 
10:38 PM
@Prismatic And for something not at all different elsewhere.
 
what is this retarded idea that making interop harder is a good thing because that's what copyrighting apis mean
@ScarletAmaranth who careeeeeeees
 
I submitted my honest Witcher 3 review
> Recommended
27 hrs last two weeks / 27 hrs on record
words cant express the
 
@Prismatic Welcome to the English language.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The combination of all the names of all the functions and all the methods and how they work together is a creative work. Deciding which constructors a container has or which args its functions take
 
now I'm gonna do random secondary quests until I finish them all
 
10:39 PM
my poop is more creative work than apis
 
I wanna see if I clock in at 200hrs+ like the devs said
 
@Prismatic You keep giving "is a creative work" as the sole evidence for "is a creative work".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dude, in my opinion it fits the definition I posted. I provided examples of some C++ APIs that you don't see in other languages even though those other language libraries encompass the same functionality
I don't really know how else to make my case
 
6 mins ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@Prismatic "such that it is improbable that two people would independently create the same work"
That's from the definition you posted.
 
10:41 PM
tbh I think it's kind of silly for a thing that just holds an arbitrary amount of values to be called vector, while the thing that acts like a vector in linear algebra is called valarray :p
 
I gave you examples otherwise but you deferred it to being simple.
 
@Prismatic That's a bad sign.
 
Copyright does not care about simplicity (sorta).
 
@Prismatic And you see it in other languages.
And to be honest, it's just blatantly ridiculous to argue that it's improbable people would use the same computer science term to describe manifestations of the same computer science entities.
 
I think there is a divide because the API not only picks names but it also determines the functionality that will be provided
 
10:43 PM
@Prismatic So, it's improbable that people would use the same established terminology to describe the same or similar functionality?
 
@AlexM. I don't think I'm underleveled..
I'm level 5..
 
let's copyright cogs in mechanical engineering
 
I don't think my issue is level, it's just that I get ganged up in the second portion of wraiths.
All 3 of them follow me and then they do 3 x 3 hits killing me instantly.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah. Its improbable that the exact same class and function and variable names with the exact same arguments for methods would be used
 
Yrden is useless there.
 
10:45 PM
@Prismatic Look, it's not like there are a great many options to choose from. And also important, going back to the defiintion that you provided: those decisions are not arbitrary.
They are borne out of engineering concerns.
 
@Rapptz you're underleveled for an easy fight
get levels -> make fight easy because stats -> profit
 
@Rapptz so go level up your quen or something. it has the alternate hold to shield mode, dunno if that would help in that fight
 
Ell
Man
I'm at a terrible party
C'est vraiment nul :(
 
@Ell we're not that bad :(
 
:/
 
10:46 PM
@Ell if you have the time to come here to complain, I'm inclined to agree
 
@Prismatic It doesn't have to be an exact matches. If you change a pixel in a photograph, you are still liable for copyright infringement.
 
what occasion?
 
If you reproduce only a portion of a book, you are still liable for copyright infringement.
 
@melak47 it probably would
 
I'm only leveling up my swords
 
10:47 PM
@AlexM. idk what this means
 
I only use igni and yrden for wraiths anyway
 
@Rapptz regular quen shields for like, 5 or 10% of your vitality? I don't know how much stamina holding would eat when the wraiths hit you though..
 
igni does nothing btw
I tried
it doesn't do anything significant
 
If you apply your argument about engineering concerns it work on any software in general
 
@Prismatic People taking into account the same engineering concerns, are likely to reach the same or similar solutions to them. It's not arbitrary in any way.
 
10:48 PM
really, I do lots of damage with the burning effect
and enemies cannot attack or follow me when burning
 
@Prismatic I agree with that.
 
combine that with a bolt that does bleeding
if I get axii's alt
which makes enemies join me
 
So are you saying you believe no source code is valid to copyright?
 
I'm basically cheating
 
(comments and stuff withstanding)
 
10:50 PM
@Prismatic API isn't the implementation.
I kinda wanna get the Yrden alt
It does DoT
 
@Prismatic That's why things like clean-room implementations exist.
@Prismatic I don't think source code is a creative work, no.
Except for this: github.com/rmartinho/art. These two are creative works.
 
user3010322
Meow.
 
@Ted Seriously, fuck you.
 
user3010322
... Still, I don't know a lot about copyright. This'd be a good time to call @JerryCoffin !
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes u.u Sorry.
 
10:54 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes lol
 
what happened there o.O
 
fuck copyrgiht
 
He wrote "copywrite" for the umpteenth time :D
 
Fucking @MooingDuck
Oh he left the room
 
fuck copywright too
 
10:55 PM
Now my joke is not good
 
I think I disagree that source code isn't valid to copyright. Even asking a developer to implement a solution to some relatively simple problem usually results in a few different solutions. And the more complex the thing you want to create is, the more variation you'll get
All I know for sure is I really dislike what Oracle is doing but I kinda think they have some merit when they claim copyright over their API
 
The variations aren't that big, really.
And they are not arbitrary.
 
Maybe we need some kind of proviso for code that special cases APIs for implementation
 
And clean-room implementations.
 
does this even matter when frameworks/api/software is usually released with some kind of license? i.e. MIT
i feel like i'm missing something here
 
10:57 PM
@nick Yes, of course it does. Those licenses have terms in them.
 
It matters when you don't have a license that explicitly gives you the permissions we're talking about here. Oracle's Java is not MIT
 
@Prismatic It always matters.
In fact, the existence of the license itself implies that the work is protected by copyright.
 
hmm
 
What I should have said is that if you have a permissive license like MIT, you're in the clear for API implementation stuff. There's no problem if the license grants you permission to modify and redistribute the code or binaries, etc. In the Java case though, there was no such license.
 
11:06 PM
hgu
 
Aha. So it has begun. My old ISP has promptly and dutifully disconnected us. But the materials of the fiber provider have not even arrived yet. EPIC FAIL
 
room topic changed to Lounge<C++>: RIP Moore's Law loungecpp.net/the-law/newbie-hints [c++] [c++11] [c++14] [c++-faq]
 
Now I'm so glad I moved the mail server into the cloud in preparation. Would have been annoying to do the failover note l
Now*
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that has nothing to do with Moore's Law, once again I was baited into reading the rules
 
lol
It has "the-law" in the URL, lol
 
11:12 PM
@Prismatic wow thats fucking bullshit
 
why would they blame SourceForge immediately though?
perhaps the owner's account was just compromised
 
They are blaming SF for not responding at all, from what I can tell.
 
> We also got outed of our +VLC project on sourceforge...
found this in the comments
and a few other accounts of ppl getting malware from dling stuff on SF
 
Ugh SF should've just shut down a long time ago.
 
@Borgleader interesting
 
11:19 PM
@Borgleader pretty obvious if you ask me. +VLC...of course there's addware in it :v
 
@Griwes It should've, but think about all that juicy ad revenue..
 
@melak47 Huh?
 
+
VLC
twas but a pun :(
 
C lol, yet another linked-list question, comment: 'I don't use a debugger, I'm a C beginner. and I didn't learn how to debug'. We noticed:(
 
user562566
nice
 
user562566
11:24 PM
clamav mailing list, guy asking how to unsubscribe as he cheerfully exclaims the email is an account he was holding for a dead person and doesn't have to keep it open anymore
 
@nick lolforge has been doing shady shit for like 2 years now
And that's why you don't trust unsigned releases
 
i should have downvoted instead of commenting he actually fixed the answer and did OPs homework...
 
@CatPlusPlus that's disappointing.. up until now I've always trusted them 100%
 
It's been bad for like 5
 
user562566
They started with injecting shit into filezilla installers years ago
 
11:27 PM
Well, no, it's been always bad
It just started to get alternatives
 
lets come up with a c++ haiku
 
@Prismatic oote oote oote boe
muhahaha. Provisionally back in business using a USB wifi dongle + phone 3G hotspot
 
user562566
@sehe why did you get d/c?
 
OOP is bad
C++ is better than
Java which is crap
 
i tried so hard but poetry isn't my thing
 
11:38 PM
The fans blow like crazy
my new code sucks like a hoover
fuck all these spinlocks.
 
its 5-7-5, not 6-8-5
 
user3010322
@JerryCoffin I was about to get get some virgins to summon you properly.
 
@TechnikEmpire Because I'm switching providers
So. I just (prematurely) committed my last SO answer, and go to bed :S
 
Jerry wasn't here...
 
Jerry has been infected by the removal virus
What's going on
 
11:42 PM
The lounge is too harsh
on newbies but tough love makes
better programmers
9
 
terrible(cpp).
good(X) :- \+ terrible(X).
?- good(cpp).
false
 
3 mins ago, by Ted
@JerryCoffin I was about to get get some virgins to summon you properly.
 
@sehe I was :S
 
Okay :( So much for awards
(I know nominations). Posting takes about 10s now.
 
@JerryCoffin What do you mean by "virgin" again? Younglings?
 
11:45 PM
Somehow I think mobile is more efficient
 
Really poor storytelling
 
Oh wait. Isn't this usually the problem with movies made after books that one previously read and enjoyed.
Mediocre books tend to make for surprising movies. And the really nice books never fail to disappoint on screen
 
I mean, it's really hard to even recognize a plot in it.
 
Oops. That takes talent
 
It's very artsy but everything else suffers.
 
11:48 PM
I'm going to head to bed though. I might still have 300GiB data for this month but I might need it for different things.
Like, communicating to my bloody new ISP why they didn't ship me their goods in time
Night all
 
I'm going to sleep too
Good night
 
Night both
 
night fellers
 
300 gigs of angry emails.. should be interesting
 
11:50 PM
Mods are gone. Time to make people hungry.
 
@Jefffrey hnnnng
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nn
 
user3010322
@R.MartinhoFernandes Night!
 
user3010322
@sehe Nightynight.
 
@sehe nn
 
user3010322
11:52 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sleep tight. Don't let the copywrites bite. :D
 
@Ted for STL it would be "Don't let the copy-on-writes bite" :P
 
user3010322
@Borgleader IIRC g++'s default stdlib is the only one that uses that.
 
user3010322
Fixed in GCC 5.1 ?
 
i thought COW became illegal in C++11?
 
11:55 PM
At least I think they did
 
gcc 5.1 m8
 
The fan oven blew
heating my Tesco pound pizza
Bailey eats teh crusts.
 
yes they fixed all C++11 issues and the C++11 stdlib is complete in 5.1
 
Hehe. If course I have 300mb of data bundle left this month. Not 300gb
 
user3010322
@Rapptz Kinky.
 
11:56 PM
@nick lol ^
 
@sehe haha that makes more sense
 

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