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user1804599
1:00 PM
Hmm.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit dunno, just seemed appropriate with the elections going on over there and all the vitriol those usually bring.
 
You get that with loose coupling and well-defined interfaces
 
@Cinch Then you create a new signal for new listeners to attach to
 
@CatPlusPlus But prior systems also need to expand to accomidate the new event
 
1:02 PM
It's the same thing except more efficient (because there's no need to call every listener in the system for events they don't care about) and safer (because compiler can verify the types of signals and slots, not to mention thread safety)
@Cinch No
 
@CatPlusPlus That's how my development process is gonna work
 
Unless they listen to it, then they would need to be changed anyway
 
@CatPlusPlus The events can be funneled based on type and such
 
user1804599
Signals and sluts.
 
Are you even reading
 
user3010322
1:04 PM
@райтфолд Boost gone wild?
 
user1804599
/r/boostgonewild
 
@ThePhD Oh btw I finally got the Sol/Lua/Any/Flexiglass thing to work
@CatPlusPlus Yes.
 
user1804599
std::strchr is great.
 
I won't be repeating myself in any case
 
@CatPlusPlus You said "new event => new signals, new listeners"
But I'll probably have to go through that process if I make up a cool new subsystem that needs more data
maybe like 7 times
So to avoid that I thought that I could make a simple generic messaging framework and then define the data structure myself
 
1:06 PM
normally I don't mind yt adds, seems fair enough for me to spend a few seconds for free entertainment, but when I get the same frigging add over and over, COME ON GUY!!!
 
i.e. let's pack the first boost::any as an byte or something
and then do the ENUM from there
 
 
user3010322
.-.
 
So. This is the "banner" of the pope. Just leaving that out here.
 
It'd be a good idea to study existing event systems and stuff that uses them before trying to reinvent anything
 
1:07 PM
@CatPlusPlus "stuff that uses them" what?
 
Looks like he guards his ballsac with razor blades
 
@sehe I could have sworn the current pope didn't use the papal tira
 
@Cinch And I'm telling you that you changed nothing, except added more unsafety
 
user3010322
@sehe Reading some of the original documents that found Catholicism, I'm actually kind've afraid of the religion.
 
The only event stuffies I know of are Windows, SDL, SFML, Cinder, various game engines, Qt, wxWidgets, and etc.
 
1:07 PM
You don't have to design all events upfront with Signals
 
@Mgetz got it from the @Pontifex twitter account
 
@CatPlusPlus "unsafety"
what do you mean unsafe?
Doesn't the cast just fail?
 
@ThePhD "kind've"?
 
user1804599
 
so where are all the Jam games?
 
1:08 PM
Event names are strings, which means compiler can't verify that you're using an existing one (plus you can't tell which events are used and which aren't, and where, which makes refactoring harder)
 
lol "snake overflow" nice
 
Any casts fail at runtime and that's entirely unnecessary
I'm starting to repeat myself ugh
 
@CatPlusPlus That's fine for me, though
 
@LightningRacisinObrit lol
 
@LightningRacisinObrit snow overflake
 
1:10 PM
And the event names should be replaced with some sort of ID, I feel.
 
Nice. Keep on feeling
 
or index
@CatPlusPlus That will also shift the responsibility over to the documentation anyways
 
Yeah that is a good idea that really makes everything easier
 
@Cinch Better to just not need them in the first place.
 
@Scrubbins Perhaps...
 
1:13 PM
heh that's quite cool @Andy - a bit hard to control cos fuck me speed and the new controls but quite cool
 
user1804599
I don't know what to do.
 
But at least it leaves room for freedom in how they want to express the two
 
user1804599
Some library functions need access to the VM's thread pool, most notably spawn.
 
it's better to just not need to express it at all.
 
user1804599
However I don't how to make the thread pool available.
 
1:15 PM
@Scrubbins I do want to have metadata somewhere, though.
 
user1804599
Perhaps I should make a vm class but it just seems like a god class.
 
user1804599
However thread pool must be destroyed before the global map is destroyed.
 
@Cinch Why?
 
@райтфолд vm - at least the runtime instances - are god like
 
@Scrubbins Because how else do I separate the data?
 
1:16 PM
lol at getting into program design argument with Cat and Puppy
 
it's better to not have a thing if you don't need that thing.
 
user1804599
@sehe Yes.
 
@Cinch What do you mean, separate the data?
 
@Scrubbins that's not the American way!!
 
The paradigm is to have listeners observe the flow of events and if they see something, pick up on it
 
user1804599
1:16 PM
I KNOW EUREKE
 
It's a centralized event-messaging paradigm instead of signals and slots
 
wow could you be any more vague
 
yeah, but here's the thing
centralized event-messaging is only used for interprocess where signals/slots is infeasible.
otherwise, it's shit.
 
user1804599
I will make a function load_builtins which loads the builtins and that function is passed a reference to the thread pool!
 
1:17 PM
the Windows message pump is just signals/slots but shittier because it's interprocess and kernel mode and a bunch of other awkward stuff that completely does not affect you in the slightest.
 
@Scrubbins An achievement system would probably be the best example of an interprocess system that would use Flexiglass.
 
that... is not interprocess at all.
 
@sehe looking over your code now. I may end up using a hybrid of what I did and you came up with. I like the wellknown_cmd_ and the idea of just folding that in with the reply. What I'll need to do is find a way to make that work with numeric replies without getting insane. Ideally I want to try to parse the int_ for the numeric reply first, and fall back to a wellknown_cmd_ if that fails.
 
you do know what I'm referring to as "interprocess", right?
 
1:18 PM
@Scrubbins i.e. this sound plays while you're at coordinates x, y with a certain health
@Scrubbins multithreading as well, yes
 
no.
interprocess means communication between two separate OS processes.
 
@Mgetz I don't know anything about replies yet. I don't think that was in the message grammar, right?
 
inter = between
process = process
 
i.e. CreateProcess, fork/exec, etc.
 
@Scrubbins which is pretty similar to mutlithreading and immutability/passing/etc anyways
 
1:19 PM
it's really not that similar at all.
 
similar to imm.... what?!
ahhhhh dont get involved lightning
 
user3010322
Hm.
 
user3010322
So my current HLSL lexer just returns me a std::vector<HLSLToken> tokens.
 
user3010322
And that's it...
 
The idea is that if I need a system that needs to look at other systems simultaneously I can do it cleanly through a central event_queue or have it peek at several ones
 
1:20 PM
@ThePhD that's what a lexer does
 
user3010322
I should.... probably make it return to me an AST.
 
or you could just have a movement slot, and add a listener.
 
user3010322
No?
 
no
it wouldn't be a lexer any more
if you don't want a standalone lexer that's fine
 
1:21 PM
@ThePhD No.
 
Cannot find movement
 
ASTs are the output of parsers.
 
Oh that's what you meant.
 
keep up pippa
 
@Mgetz ah, so: command = no_case[wellknown_cmd_] | numeric_command | +alpha;? See demo
 
user3010322
1:22 PM
So... do the tokens comes out of the lexer or the parser? ;~;
 
lexer, bud...
 
lexer.
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Am I stupid for arguing with them?
 
lexer - Range<char> -> Range<Token>
 
1:22 PM
@LightningRacisinObrit wisdom made a surprise entry
 
parser - Range<Token> -> AST.
 
user3010322
... So then the lexer passes a list of tokens to the... uh. Parser, and that makes the AST?
 
@LightningRacisinObrit as in I'm bad or don't listen to them?
 
user3010322
Oooh. Okay.
 
1:23 PM
@ThePhD yes...
 
user3010322
Don't judge me. ;~;
 
too late for that :D
 
@Cinch arguing with Cat and Puppy is never useful
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Hm okay then.
But their profiles pics were TOO CUTE
 
@LightningRacisinObrit hurr durr
Of course it's useful. It's not useful to take every word as solid gold
 
1:23 PM
it very quickly becomes intractible to separate the useful knowledge and advice from abject arrogance, ego and flaming
 
Well well.
So close to an introspective. Yet so far
 
@sehe Also
did you have an opinion or no?
 
Yes. I did not have an opinion. "Sorry"?
 
@sehe do the numeric command first most likely, it should in theory be a faster parse. But yes
 
> Apple will start selling its first wearable [watch], which costs from $349 to $17,000, on April 24.
(Presumably by "April 24" they mean "24th April")
Wowzer
 
1:25 PM
@sehe on Flexiglass and its design?
 
Mar 13 at 12:43, by StackedCrooked
Basically Apple is now a also jeweler.
@Cinch don't make me repeat. You've plinked me quite enough times about this.
 
@sehe Right?
 
If you wanted to run any risk at all of me eyeballing the code, you should probably not nag
Even my kids know this. And they should probably feel a bit entitled to my attention :S
 
@sehe Aw...
Sehe doesn't want to rip my code apart.
 
@Mgetz :D
 
1:28 PM
@Cinch It's already in quite enough pieces.
 
@sehe any way to make them both parse into the wellknown_cmd_ enum? that would seem the simplest result to me...
 
@Scrubbins I'm so tempted to make a Puppy joke here but I can't
 
why not?
 
user1804599
Ugh, tbb::concurrent_unordered_map has no emplace.
 
@райтфолд Concurrency and mutation aren't necessarily bedfellows. It's a bit more complex than just adding that extra overload.
 
1:29 PM
@Scrubbins Puppies don't rip things to shreds. They teeth and bite you and then you do the "aw" thing and then pat their head.
 
you've clearly never actually had a puppy
 
user1804599
The documentation says it has emplace.
 
user1804599
Maybe I have an old version.
 
@Scrubbins It's a joke. I make terrible jokes.
 
heh
 
user1804599
1:32 PM
Alright, insert works passing an initialiser list.
 
user1804599
main is tidy_er_ now.
 
Is

bind(binary_func, bind(binary_func, _1, arg0), arg1)

equivalent to

f(x) = binary_func(binary_func(x, arg0), arg1)

? Do nested binds work this way?
 
user1804599
No, of course not.
 
user1804599
That would introduce a special case. Special cases are well-known to make generic programming impossible, and std::bind was pretty much meant to be used with generic programming.
 
bind returns a binder, i'm binding a binary function, to another binder
 
1:38 PM
@gnzlbg There is something about that, if I recall correctly.
I answered sbi doing something with it a year ago or so
 
user1804599
Fucking terrible.
 
user1804599
So basically, you can never pass anything to std::bind that has a template parameter as type.
 
basically std::bind knows when you are passing it a magic binder object
if you don't want it to work that way you have to wrap the nested binds
 
user1804599
bad bad bad
 
1:43 PM
i didn't knew bind could do that, i think its nice
 
user1804599
We can conclude that std::bind is broken.
 
you can curry anything you want with it
i mean, you can use the place holders in nested functions, thats kind of awesome
maybe that is why it takes 5k LOC to implement bind properly :D
 
user1804599
Use a lambda instead.
 
@райтфолд Who needs bind anyway, that's what lambdas are for
 
user1804599
template<typename F>
auto x(F&& f) {
    return std::bind(woo, std::forward<F>(f), _2);
}

x(std::bind(boo, 1, _1)); // happy debugging motherfucker
 
user1804599
1:48 PM
Which reminds me, I thought of a way to easily implement lambda captures yesterday.
 
Wide re-uses regular name lookup to find lambda captures
 
user1804599
I mean codegen-wise.
 
user1804599
Basically, let y = 1; f(func(x) { x * y }) would compile to let y = 1; f(std::bind(__lambda1, y)).
 
user1804599
And a global func __lambda1(y: Any, x: Any): Any { x * y }.
 
user1804599
Where std::bind is an intrinsic that's implemented in C++.
 
1:54 PM
@Mgetz ah. I didn't know that you could want to combine these. Erm... thinking
 
@sehe I don't need to per se... it'd just be nice for code handling the messages later
my current code doesn't for example
 
@Mgetz why not add it to the symbol table? optimize when you prove it is worth it: coliru.stacked-crooked.com/a/bb44db7abc8fd67a
 
@райтфолд Not really necessary, it's a bit easier to take a C++/C# approach where regular UDTs can be callable and then just implement lambdas as constructing one of them.
 
user1804599
1:58 PM
Yeah, perhaps I'll do that.
 
I found it highly easy with Wide.
 
user1804599
Will require some changes to the VM though.
 
@sehe my current solution was to parse then use boost::pheonix to cast it over, is that making it too complicated? my big worry with that solution is there are a LOT of numeric replies
 
@LightningRacisinObrit Thanks! It's possible that you downloaded the version where I erroneously set the snake speed too high - I just wanted to make a test and whoops committed. I then reverted it to some reasonable value later. But yeah the control system is a bit counter-intuitive
 
user1804599
The interpreter currently assumes callables are of C++ type subroutine.
 
user1804599
1:59 PM
Which stores an std::function inside itself.
 
well arguably your VM should already permit effectively arbitrary types with an arbitrary interface.
 
user1804599
EUREKA
 
Wide has a Type interface that permits basically anything
 
user1804599
@Scrubbins It does, but not for callables.
 
@CatPlusPlus Cool! I can play it now
Works on Chrome
 
2:01 PM
@Mgetz I personally limit the cruft by staying out of phoenix as much as possible
 
@sehe fair enough. I've pulled in your code and will be running a few tests
 
@райтфолд That seems very ... coupled.
if I had to implement an interpreter for Wide, I'd probably just implement an interpreter for LLVM IR.
 
@Mgetz well. do remember that CPUs do billions of operations per second. I reckon that parsing is not gonna be anywhere near your bottleneck
 
user1804599
But I can introduce a protocol Subroutine with a single method postfix().
 
user1804599
Which the call instruction implementation knows about.
 
2:03 PM
@sehe I highly doubt it as well
 
God, EL&U is such a hive of arrogance and ego. It's really a disgusting place.
Predominantly, I've noticed, from American "academics". Go figure.
 
user1804599
@Scrubbins LLVM has an interpreter for LLVM IR already.
 
Still, I guess they need a way to make themselves feel better about defending their little offshoot of the language.
 
user1804599
It's used if no JIT is available for the platform.
 
@райтфолд It really doesn't.
things like, it doesn't even support functions taking aggregates or someshit like that.
 
user1804599
2:05 PM
This is the current implementation for calls: github.com/mill-lang/mill/blob/develop/mill/src/…
 
I think that they actually completely removed it recently because it completely doesn't work at all
 
user1804599
In Haskell and JS I never really had the need to overload the call operator, though.
 
user1804599
Not really in C++ either.
 
user1804599
In Scala I sometimes do it because it's not possible to have package-level methods, so instead I create a callable singleton.
 
@Scrubbins That's true, you can end up writing that kind of code, and definitely I agree with the point about reducing the potential for coupling. However, the presence of the application object per se does not prevent you from designing your dependencies in a sensible way, so assuming one has some experience with designing SW, the existence of an application object won't hurt much.
But again this is not to say it's a good design decision (it's not), it just seems to me the hate towards it is somewhat exaggerated
 
2:12 PM
lol Puppy lol experience
 
@AndyProwl Right, but it doesn't hav eany benefits. It's only risk. It's not really a tradeoff, it's a clearly negative thing.
 
> Unlike classical snake games, Snake Overflow lets you control the snake by using only two keys: the left arrow and the right arrow (or the 'A' and 'D' keys, alternatively). These respectively turn the snake left or right relative to its current direction of movement, and not relative to the observer's viewpoint.
isn't that what classically happens already?
 
user1804599
No.
 
@Scrubbins I concur, but it's a negative thing whose influence is really easy to neutralize, at least IMO
 
user1804599
Typically, you have four direction keys.
 
2:13 PM
@Blob Normally you would use ASDW
There you can only use AD, or left/right
 
@AndyProwl Right, but there's no point in even trying or taking that risk.
 
@Scrubbins Yep, I agree. I'm just saying the hate makes it look like it's a very dangerous or very disabling thing, which IMO it is not
Probably the hate is there because it's just very pointless
 
user1804599
I should make a function that creates a Mill subroutine from a C++ (type list, function) pair.
 
user1804599
Which inserts dynamic type checks.
 
why is every game so boring
either that or won't run on my comp in a playable manner
 
2:16 PM
@AndyProwl It can be a very dangerous or disabling thing, but I mainly dislike it because there's no reason to have it, and I think that adding code for no benefit is a very serious issue.
 
user1804599
Oh, right, C++ being retarded you can't do template<typename... Args, typename F>.
 
user1804599
Wait. You can if F is deduced maybe?
 
@Blob Not every game is boring. If you're talking about mine, it's boring because I am not a game developer nor good at graphics. It's just a quick experiment.
 
@AndyProwl no
i'm talking about my steam library
 
you didn't get very far with KSP then?
 
2:18 PM
meh
fine, i'll play it again
 
suggests to me that you don't really know what you think is fun
 
lol it sounds like you have to
 
@AndyProwl Dictator DeadMG
 
right
 
i used to pour months into Garrys Mod but now i think it's stupid
same thing with tf2
 
2:20 PM
TF2 was always stupid
and I personally never really got into Garry's Mod
 
is stacking fuel stuff to make a huge rocket a viable option?
or does each fuel stuff need its own fire-propelling-thing?
i tried it out and it felt like stacking stuff made me go higher, but it might've been due to other factors
 
struct shit { std::vector<bar> data; }; <-- is that shit moveable by default?
 
stacking stuff is definitely important.
 
AFAIK, yes
 
user1804599
std::size_t i = 0;
return implementation((arguments_begin + i++)->template data<Args>()...);
 
user1804599
2:23 PM
I'm so afraid this will break.
 
pizza coming soon
mm pizza
 
@Blob You really can't get anywhere if you don't stack fuel tanks.
 
user1804599
Order of argument evaluation is not specified.
 
user1804599
Fuck C++.
 
@райтфолд because your code is ugly
make it less ugly
 
2:24 PM
I actually think that for varidiacs, it is enforced.
 
@blob stacking fuel tanks allows for more fuel for an engine, but at some point you will have too much fuel for the engine to lift.
 
user1804599
@Blob No, my code being ugly is not the reason it isn't specified.
 
if it was less ugly you wouldn't care that it was not specified
 
user1804599
Fix it for me, then.
 
user1804599
2
Q: Is the order for variadic template pack expansion defined in the standard?

ThibautI thought that expanding a parameter pack had the following behavior: // for Args ... p f(p)...; // was equivalent to f(p1); f(p2); ...; f(pn); But I just found out that gcc (4.6, 4.7 and 4.8) does it the other way around: f(pn); ...; f(p2); f(p1); Whereas clang does it as I expected. Is t...

 
2:26 PM
return 0;
 
user1804599
Not nice!
 
why do you need arguments to be evaluated in a particular order?
 
user1804599
Because i++ has a side-effect.
 
should i attach the detach thingy every few fuel tanks?
 
then change it so it doesn't have a side effect :P
 
user1804599
2:27 PM
Or, better, return implementation(arguments_begin++->template data<Args>()...);.
 
user1804599
arguments_begin is an iterator.
 
arguments_begin++ still has a side effect.
 
user1804599
Yes, I know.
 
pros: less weight to lift later on. cons: more weight to lift (those propelling fire things) to start with
 
finally worked around bind not being constexpr
that took a while
 
2:28 PM
@Blob Not really.
 
user1804599
I need that integer sequence thing, perhaps.
 
user1804599
It's a random access iterator so that's good.
 
what you do is you have "outer" boosters that you then detach, then fire the inner.
 
oh, that makes sense.. less toppling over :|
i just built down
 
user1804599
Wide plx tell me order of evaluation of arguments is LTR.
 
2:31 PM
@Blob Building down works well but it runs into a limit of effectiveness- both in terms of stability and in terms of poor TWR.
@райтфолд Yes.
 
user1804599
Good puppy.
 
user1804599
In Mill everything is LTR.
 
is there a side-detacher i'll get later on or is it possible with the normal detacher?
 
user1804599
a() + b() * c() evaluates a(), evaluates infix+, evaluates b(), evaluates infix* and evaluates c() in that order.
 
god i'm so bored
someone be cool and fun
 
user1804599
2:33 PM
Although in the case of infix+ and infix* it's irrelevant since they're immutable.
 
@Blob You need a side-detacher as well as a normal detacher.
 
user1804599
Would matter for a() ~:$x:~ b() since a() may mutate $x.
 
don't think i have one. oh well, 5-fuel-things-in-a-row should get me into orbit
 
I think that you can get into a stable orbit with 5-6 fuel things in a row if you use a normal efficient gravity ascent.
and then the normal basic engine, LV30 I think?
 
user1804599
Maybe std::integer_sequence can help me with the unpacking stuff.
 
2:35 PM
should i use LV-T30? currently using LV-T45 for the big stuff and a LV-909 for my backup fuel
 
what you should do is get the MechJeb addon.
@Blob Yes. If you look at LV-45 (from memory) it is not as fuel efficient or produce as much thrust as LV-30.
LV-909 is useful for landers and other small craft but not really useful for pushing into orbit.
@райтфолд Yep, that's pretty much what it's meant for.
 
yesterday, i wanted to collect an air sample but Jebediah fell and died :|
he fell in water
why would he die? :|
 
you gotta be super duper careful trying to get eva reports in atmosphere.
 
user1804599
But of course, it's unusable with lambdas.
 
user1804599
And of course, it's unusable with local classes.
 
2:38 PM
@Blob Surface tension makes water as hard as concrete once you're falling at a certain velocity.
@райтфолд Why?
 
user1804599
How do you want to pass an std::index_sequence to a lambda and use it?
 
@sehe so I'm going to stick with my code now, unfortunately the IRC RFC seems to have some bugs in the augmented BNF, my simple parser is tolerant of them and the statefulness of the whole thing (which is bullshit)
 
user1804599
You can't explicitly specify template parameters in a lambda.
 
from memory, you don't pass the index_sequence.
 
user1804599
You do, that's how you extract the integers. It depends on deduction.
 
user1804599
2:39 PM
template<typename Array, std::size_t... I>
auto a2t_impl(const Array& a, std::index_sequence<I...>) {
    return std::make_tuple(a[I]...);
}
 
instead of s/a2t_impl/lambda, try s/std::make_tuple/lambda.
should be simple enough to pass a lambda into of a2t_impl.
 
user1804599
No, I want to make a2t_impl a lambda.
 
user1804599
That's pretty much the point.
 
well remember that feature is intended for a language spec with polylambdas.
 
user1804599
I know.
 
2:43 PM
i should attempt orbit at ~13K, right?
 
user1804599
struct call_with_proper_order_of_evaluation {
    template<typename F, typename... Args>
    call_with_proper_order_of_evaluation(F&& f, Args&&... args) {
        std::forward<F>(f)(std::forward<Args>(args)...);
    }
};

// then
call_with_proper_order_of_evaluation{impl, arguments_begin++->template data<Args>()...};
 
user1804599
:)
 
user1804599
With { … } the order is well-defined.
 
user1804599
Needs some more fun to get the return value, though.
 
2:49 PM
@райтфолд It is well-defined when calling that constructor, but is it still well-defined when the constructor calls your function?
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl No, but that doesn't matter since it's just reading local variables.
 
Ah wait
Yeah sure
it's just forwarding the results
Yeah, sorry, dumbness
 
user1804599
It's not call-by-name. :P
 
yeah
 
shit, i forgot to fix the stages
 
2:53 PM
@Blob Go up to 10, then head at a 45 degree angle till apoapsis is ~75k, then once you are about 1m till apoapsis burn directly horizontal until you got orbit.
 
user1804599
Huh, how do you define a template ctor of a template class outside of the class body?
 
user1804599
I hope this isn't a clang bug.
 
i started that horizontal thing a bit too late :|
gotta re-do this
 
@райтфолд It's minorly awkward.
 
user1804599
I'll ask on Stack Overflow and farm rep.
 
ergh... namespace { struct tag{}; template<typename tag> struct foo{}; } using bar = foo<tag>; struct foobar{ bar b; }; causes warnings because foobar is using something from an anonymous namespace (foobar being defined in a different file, not that that should matter much)
 
user1804599
@Scrubbins top kek
 
user1804599
Right, thanks.
 
@Blob You should also get the MechJeb addon, it will tell you lots of useful things about your ship- like the TWR and dV of each stage.
 
user1804599
yay 1 upvote
 
user1804599
2:59 PM
and dupe
 

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