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4:25 PM
Wow, it's been quiet in here...
 
4:57 PM
<echo>
 
<echo <echo>> (reverb)
 
 
1 hour later…
6:07 PM
F <- T; T <- FALSE devilish laugh
 
Ali
hey can anybody tell me here what's good about R in a sentence or two! I use MATLAB and Python (scipy numpy) everyday!
 
Why do you ask?
 
Ali
I see all these intelligent people who use R
but I am too lazy/busy to learn R (I am learning clojure/incanter right now)
 
@Ali Why are you learning Clojure / Incanter?
 
Ali
and I want to know what is it about R, is it just something for people who don't want to get their hands dirty or it has something that I maybe missing!
 
6:19 PM
I was reserving judgement as to whether you were just trolling, but "is it just something for people who don't want to get their hands dirty" seems like a dead giveaway. ;)
 
Ali
@JoshuaUlrich I wanted to learn LISP (Hackers and painters ...) and I came across Rich Hickey's talks and decided Clojure is a a good lisp to invest on for me. then I saw incanter and decided it's time to get rid of matlab for good!
I may be trolling but not JUST
I mean I am not gonna spend time learning R (at least now) but if you can tell me a sentence or two that would help me calm down!
 
@Ali So you're too busy to learn R because you've decided to learn something else first? Seriously, it depends on what you're trying to do. What are you doing in MATLAB and Python that you want to do in another language?
 
Ali
I have seen many statisticians/biostatisticians who use R (and they are definitely not interested in coding per se, they want to solve their problem)
@JoshuaUlrich on a daily basis I do rather simple statistical analysis (basic things like t-tests ANOVA correlation ...), sometimes I need to do simulations. I always need good visualization tools. (I am a neuroscientist).
@joran sorry that I offended/disappointed you. Didn't mean to.
 
@Ali You didn't offend me, don't worry!
 
Ali
@joran cool! Now can you tell me who is R good for?
 
6:28 PM
@Ali My next question would be: what do other neuroscientists use? I would encourage you to use what they use.
 
Ali
@JoshuaUlrich OK, most people use matlab, and I use matlab most of the time, BUT we all use matlab as a generic tool and reinvent the wheel every day. I have tried a few times to build a toolbox (in matlab, C#, python ...) so that we can save time and energy and avoid mistakes/bugs as well give a boost to newcomers to the field (so that they won't need to spend months developing their half hearted tools).
 
@Ali Generally I wouldn't recommend leaving a tool that most others in your field use, you aren't unhappy with and you are skilled in. But you may find the ease of building packages in R appealing.
 
I think the idea of a toolbox is very nice. My observation and past experience is that the people who often decide to build a tool box don't build what new users are willing to use.
 
@Ali R is good for interactive data analysis (including visualization). It's also very good for reproducible research (e.g. Sweave, the package system).
 
Ali
thank you all @joran @JDLong @JoshuaUlrich , one problem in our field is that lots of newcomers are from backgrounds that they don't have any experience in programming at all.
@JoshuaUlrich I like "reproducible" because, the nature of our work is so that our datasets contain data which evolves over time and is heterogenous and any view into this data depends on lots of parameters and filters and selection criteria and results ar e not stable. But I doubt that R has any special means to help us with that.
@joran you are right, it would only work if I have new students who only work with me and don't mind learning a new tool that they might not use anywhere else. Or if I keep parallel set of tools (may be to cross-validate) or to pick and choose.
 
6:49 PM
@Ali You can also package and upload your toolset to CRAN, which allows anyone to download it, use it, improve it, etc.
 
Ali
Still I don't know who is R for?
 
R is for anyone who works with and analyzes data.
 
Maybe some of the task views will give you an idea? http://cran.r-project.org/web/views/
Click on some of the "views" and read about the packages contained in them. That should give you some idea of the people who use R.
 
Ali
Maybe I need to rephrase my question
I mean, which one is a more stereotypical R user, a person who needs to find the simplest way to do any of these, or a person who cares about performance and portability and wouldn't mind spending more energy on the details of the code they write?
 
Aaarrrrrrr!
 
6:57 PM
I have encountered both types of R users in equal numbers, to be perfectly honest. One of the appeals of R is that it can happily satisfy both the "get things done" crowd and the "loves to get hands dirty with code" crowd.
 
I'd second @joran's response. I know people who use R who aren't interested in programming at all, while I routinely call C/C++ code from R.
 
Ali
Aha! It seems I need to try a few simple things and see how it goes!
OK, guys I think I got my answer!
 
I would like to mention that R is extremely portable. It works on all (major) operating systems and across many, many, many locales.
 
it must be frustrating to really really want to stereotype a group and be unable to create a simplistic reduction.
 
Ali
Yep!
 
7:00 PM
@JDLong Spoken like a true white, elitist, American male.
 
Ali
c'est la vie
 
inability to figure out which bucket to put strangers in causes me daily grief
 
Ali
I guess I would be visiting more, hopefully
thanks again
 
You're welcome. Hope to see you around!
 
good luck @Ali
@JoshuaUlrich by the way, I represent your remark.
 
7:09 PM
dang, did i just miss an interesting discussion?
 
no
 
incanter just looks like someone reinvented xlispstat
repeat after me: the reason people use R is because of CRAN. As soon as all of CRAN is implemented in Python, people will use Python.
 
which is a great idea. Just not that exciting for people wanting to actually solve problems. Maybe one day...
that's 80% accurate
 
need another 15% on that to be true then :)
 
there's also, "it's the tool they know" which is the category that also includes, "it's what I learned in school"
and data.frames.
I like data.frames. Maybe a little too much.
 
7:14 PM
python has pandas :)
 
Ruffles have ridges.
 
pandas is a neat package. I'm not really sure I understand why time-series analysis, group by, data.frames, and ponies belong in one package, but it's a happy zoo in there (all puns intended)
 
wow i didnt realise i could edit lines here :)
 
pretty cool, ey? They lock after some time period, tho
 
Pssh, ponies... I want a quadricorn!
2
 
7:19 PM
okay, foods ready,gnight
 
@Spacedman There's a time limit, but it's best to edit after someone's already responded to your message.
 
8:10 PM
"All new problems are old problems happening to new people."
 
@JoshuaUlrich true
 
Another truth: turkey bacon is a lie.
 
8:38 PM
Howdy ho, any TeX masters that are used to writing algorithms, really, really long algorithms, in their papers?
I'm struggling to get my super duper algorithm to format properly. Here's my post to TeX.SE:
0
Q: Algorithm over two pages, with itemized lists

IteratorI am trying to split an algorithm over two pages. This has already been addressed before, with the closest result being this question. However, I have a wrinkle - I need the algorithm to have two sections: one lists the inputs, the second lists the steps. Here is an example: \documentclass{ar...

I figured some of the sweave masteRs here may have encountered something like this before. :)
 
 
1 hour later…
9:43 PM
Problem solved. I love SE. I bang my head for awhile, post a question, and while I'm out getting aspirin or caffeine, to prepare for more head banging, someone figures out what I was doing wrong.
 
sweet!
 
 
1 hour later…
10:52 PM
I find it annoying when people try to apply the programming paradigm they know/understand to a new programming language.
5
 
11:02 PM
Deja vu?
 
All over again.
 
I love it when @JoshuaUlrich grumps. Makes me feel less alone in the world.
 
@joran It just bothers me because it's like asking, "how do you use a screwdriver as a hammer? I tried beating the nail with the handle, but that didn't work. Why can't screwdrivers be more like hammers?"
 
This is the neatest trick I learned today:
Browse[1]> a <- data.frame(a = runif(10), b = runif(10))
Browse[1]> a
           a          b
1  0.3849847 0.24278503
2  0.3471185 0.44832988
3  0.7041573 0.93917527
4  0.2276059 0.81338599
5  0.8106673 0.08731146
6  0.9458839 0.00567775
7  0.4210602 0.13087502
8  0.6503028 0.48295226
9  0.3580783 0.17662141
10 0.2799754 0.70123352
Browse[1]> a[] <- NA
Browse[1]> a
    a  b
1  NA NA
2  NA NA
3  NA NA
4  NA NA
5  NA NA
6  NA NA
7  NA NA
8  NA NA
9  NA NA
10 NA NA
Good for making pre-allocated structures.
 
Does that work if the columns are different classes?
I.e. does it know to differentiate between NA_character_, NA_integer_ etc?
 
11:13 PM
I think it does.
 
Prove it.
;-)
 
Browse[1]> a
 [1] "a" "b" "c" "d" "e" "f" "g" "h" "i" "j"
Browse[1]> a[] <- NA
Browse[1]> a
 [1] NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA
Same goes for factors.
This is the same "trick" that raster package uses to populate rasters.
r <- raster()
r[] <- runif(ncell(r))
 
I just tried it with a column of integers, numeric, character, and factor
d[] <- NA made all the columns logical.
I guess that doesn't matter too much because it will be converted to the class of the first thing you insert into it.
 
>x
[1] NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA "Hey" "Hey"
[11] "Hey" "Goodbye"
:)
 
I think someone wrote c("NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "NA", "Batman!") some time ago.
10
 

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