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nwp
11:00 PM
I like my truth better
 
user1804599
I arrived at this expression after a short brainstorming session with pscid.
 
The truth is that Obama Care had a lot of stuff wrong with it. It essentially opens the doors for unrestricted healthcare costs. At present, there is literally nothing that will deny treatment, or any financial charges. The US health care expenditure as GDP has growth by some estimates by 40% during this period, making it by far the highest in the developed world. Trump's proposals like having a single market (instead of state markets), are a step in the right direction.
 
no, they're really not
 
which part?
 
pretty much all of it.
the US healthcare expenditure as a proportion of GDP was already far higher than everybody else
all Obama did was make sure that the poorer got coverage too
 
Trump is basically just going to cut it so that only the richest get coverage and that's how he's going to cut prices
 
Jumps from about 15 to 18 percent after Obama Care (this graph ends early)
 
15 is already about double what Norway spends.
 
Yeah, thats pretty fucked up
 
fact is
the free market for healthcare has failed
and the actions of US politicians just goes to show they're too corrupt or too stupid to notice
 
11:13 PM
I agree the free market doesn't work for healthcare. I also agree US politicians are too corrupt, but much of that corruption is on the Democrat side.
 
well, I'm not arguing that the Democrats are the pinnacle of perfection
 
Back to my point, Obama Care means unlimited healthcare spending because there is no mechanics to deny people care.
 
but they also don't want to gouge the poor to send money to the rich
so I find it hard to believe that their corruption ranks on the scale of Republican corruption slash stupidity
 
Why do you want to deny people health care
 
@Mikhail That's a good thing.
in developed countries, people should have healthcare.
 
11:15 PM
Seriously confused over your line of thought
 
the only question is whether or not you pay an obscene sum of money for it because your system is totally broken
our healthcare is universal coverage for everybody and we pay half of what America pays.
I find it hard to believe that a few sick poor people are really the motivation here
 
@Rapptz Yeah, I agree. I'm pro national health care. One reason to deny care is because the country can't afford to pay.
In the US there is a serious problem with doctors over-treating patients: giving things like x-rays when not needed, prescribing medication when not needed, and even really expensive things like unnecessary surgeries. Over and over again this stuff doesn't lead to better outcomes - but it makes doctors money. With Obama Care there is nothing prevent anybody from ringing up the bill. This is why healthcare as GDP is so much higher then the rest of the world.
 
there are some treatments that our health system does not offer because they are too expensive
but universal coverage is certainly not a "cannot afford" matter
 
What the fuck do you know about something being unneeded
Are you a physician? Do you know how the steps are done to figure out what is wrong with a patient?
 
@Mikhail The problem is that you have a bill in the first place.
 
11:20 PM
@Mikhail ...you know, they might also be trying to protect themselves from a malpractice suit?
 
@Rapptz Doctors look at outcomes, there is a vast medical literature (maybe Cancer Research will even accept my paper!) about the advantages and disadvantages of specific medical treatment. The US will opt to spend money on marginal improvements (like 5% better stuff, often motivated by falsified studies) where other countries don't.
 
there are unnecessary and ineffective treatments, including here in the UK
but I imagine we have a much lower problem with it because nobody is profiting from it
 
Yes, and also because somebody in the UK "says no". In the USA nobody says "no".
 
There's this attitude of "you didn't do everything under the sun to catch the cancer my husband had when the vastly more probable situation given your information was that he had a slight hormone imbalance! You should never be employed as a doctor ever again and I want all your money"
 
Hello. I am an oncologist.
Introduction aside
The perceived line of thought that someone would be willing to waste their time and effort (including waiting for lab results) because it has marginal profit effect is more of a conspiracy in my opinion than anything else.
 
11:23 PM
I'm a PhD student who works with oncologists... (actually pathology, like Gleason grading)
 
I'm glad that we're in the same field
It only confuses me more
 
I think it's a statistical matter
it's kinda like saying that immigrants are rapists
I mean statistically, if you have enough immigrants, some of them will be rapists
and if you've met an immigrant, he might be a rapist
but that doesn't lead you to conclude that they are all rapists or more likely to be rapists or any such thing
 
@Puppy I'm sure some of them are good people
 
so maybe he knows oncologists who are shitfaces and is just extrapolating much too far from it
the real answer here would be to conduct a statistical study to determine whether or not oncologists are shitfaces
 
What statement are you disagreeing with?
 
11:25 PM
although I feel that the overwhelming likelihood is "No."
 
@Mikhail The steps required for figuring out what is wrong with a patient is not incredibly black and white. Nor is it as easy as something that can be done purely with statistics. I don't really know how to explain it without actually having the experience of having to deal with the problem solving that goes through with it. Doctors are human beings too and even with the aid of machines there's still the odd chance that something is being overlooked.
I don't consider thorough examinations to be a conspiracy in making more money.
 
^ this is exactly what my parents say
 
in Discussion between sehe and Christopher Pisz, 34 secs ago, by sehe
In fact, I will probably take a few years to think about it. Thank you for your kind advice.
asshat
Oops. I misspelled Felicia.
And it would appear I forgot "Goodbye, " :)
 
Implementing a virtual network link isn't as trivial as I thought. Even though it's basically packets go in and packets go out.
 
Diagnosis isn't science with a black or white yes/no, it's taking into account every variable you have access to, figuring out what the patient is saying and not saying, what information might be missing, and using otherwise incomplete information to come to a probable cause
 
11:31 PM
@Rapptz The argument is that that the US system has no "checks" on healthcare expenditure, while other countries have this. There are numerous scholarly articles comparing specific treatments, such as the famous 10 year study on prostate cancer that conclude some treatments are not necessary. These things are controversial, but in America only one side is represented - the SPENT MORE MONEY side.
 
@Rapptz so any general tips to reduce chance of getting cancer?
 
It would be neat if by spending a ton of money on health care we lived longer
 
@Mikhail The issue is that they have incentives to do so in the first place.
 
@Puppy Yeah, I'm a big proponent of government control of healthcare. But we need to recognize the very real flaws with Obama Care.
 
the problem with Obama Care is that he didn't go far enough
he should have regulated the shit out of the providers, and forced them all to deal directly with the government
then covered everybody
 
11:34 PM
Yeah, but he didn't far enough because the Democrats are a bunch of corrupt sons-of-a-bitches. The compromise was give more people health care, but also drastically increase healthcare spending making pharma/bio/medical companies tons of money.
 
no, he compromised because otherwise the republicans would not have passed the bill
 
They didn't?
 
probably wasn't enough compromise
 
They had to worry about "blue dog" Democrats opposing it. here is a fun map:
 
image not found?
 
11:38 PM
The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, often shortened to the Affordable Care Act (ACA) and nicknamed Obamacare, is a United States federal statute enacted by the 111th United States Congress and signed into law by President Barack Obama on March 23, 2010. Under the act, hospitals and primary physicians would transform their practices financially, technologically, and clinically to drive better health outcomes, lower costs, and improve their methods of distribution and accessibility. The Affordable Care Act was designed to increase health insurance quality and affordability, lower the...
Look at
House vote by congressional district.
 
This presidency does have an entertainment factor.
 
Notice how there are no Republican "yes" votes, and some Democrat "no" votes
 
@Mikhail There is a requirement on the loss ratio for their spending under the ACA.
80% of the premiums must go towards improving health care
 
I believe you but I haven't read about that part. There are a lot of intricacies designed to prevent the total exploitation of the American population. But overall the "outcome" is unambiguous, healthcare spending has gone way, way up, and will go , way, way up (without any improvement in average population health).
 
When Obama care was introduced many low-income people opposed it for some reason. I wonder if they have started to realize it's actually a good thing.
 
11:43 PM
@StackedCrooked 1/3 of the 30 million people who got coverage of them definitely didn't want it - because they feel healthy and don't want to pay. But its not clear if these groups are healthier...
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked People don't like to acknowledge their weaknesses (in this case being able to get sick).
 
Interesting point.
 
So, in Trumps plan those 1/3 can opt for cash instead of coverage. I personally, think this is bad because healthy people need to pay for the sick people. Ironically, Republicans are older and sicker than their Democrat counterparts.
 
The healthy paying for the sick is the point of insurance
 
or taxes
 
11:46 PM
@jaggedSpire I think that's what he meant.
 
because you don't exactly have a guarantee on which group you're going to fall into five years from now
oh, sorry.
Misread
@StackedCrooked Thanks
 
@jaggedSpire I was confused as well.
Hm, communication to my VM via a fifo doesn't seem to work. "Protocol error".
 
Puppy has experience with unexpected sickness
 
@Mikhail Older, definitely. Less healthy is open to a lot more question. In particular, Republicans have a much higher tendency to live in rural areas, where health tends to be somewhat better. See debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/… and: hpi.georgetown.edu/agingsociety/pubhtml/rural/rural.html
 
Age difference
 
11:54 PM
I know that this is a c++ group... but are any of you proficient in assembly language?
 
@Mikhail ...isn't really as large as most people think (average of 47 for Democrats vs. 50 for Repulicans).
@NathanDrieling Define proficient.
 
What mess up the number is that the lower age brackets are more populous, and the number you quote is the age of those who have voted - and not just on facebook :-)
The number changes if you consider "identification"
 
@Mikhail I believe that's based on everybody who's registered, not those who actually voted (but it's probably true that there are more, younger people who'd identify as Democrat but aren't registered).
 
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