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3:00 PM
@BartekBanachewicz The reasoning in it is just bonkers, and I'm ok with that.
 
let's leave it at "a piece of journalism" then
 
lolwut?
What is it reporting on?
 
does journalism need to report?
 
@BartekBanachewicz no, it's nothing more than an opinion
 
It's just an opinion piece, a terribly biased one.
 
3:01 PM
@BartekBanachewicz yes
 
Plagued by confirmation bias.
 
vOv
I still wouldn't want a purely-self-driven car ;)
 
"This one time no cars stopped to save a kitten! Bikers are connected to reality!"
 
Also I still think that driving a two-wheeler for some time would do hella good to a lot of car drivers
 
3:03 PM
@BartekBanachewicz curious, why not? If we allow you to have race tracks and designated areas where you are allowed to drive manually, why are you against the idea of public roads being only for self driving cars?
 
WRT their awareness and caution on the road
 
@BartekBanachewicz Well yes, I'd give you that a lot of car drivers would be more aware of what they are doing if they knew what it's like on the other side
 
^ /cc:@Telkitty
 
@thecoshman Because I'd still like to travel for enjoyment. Covering distance manually can still be fun
Say, my parents live some 80km from me
 
3:04 PM
@BartekBanachewicz but, when you consider general safety of people, is your enjoyment really worth it?
@BartekBanachewicz you could instead sleep in the car, do some work, really enjoy the country side
 
I was told there is a severe case of Bartek going on and I really didn't want to miss that
3
 
@thecoshman I enjoy the road way more when driving.
 
instead of having to pay attention to 80km of boring fall asleep road?
 
there are boring roads and there are fun roads :)
 
Oh it's the motorcycle conversation.
 
3:06 PM
I have locomotive sickness. I hate being driven on curvy roads. I have no problems driving them, though.
 
@BartekBanachewicz if you are driving safely, driving is kinda boring :P
 
@thecoshman that's nonsense
you don't need to go extremely fast for the ride to be enjoyable
 
@BartekBanachewicz ah, taken to an extreme perhaps :P
 
I'll remind you I did a few thousand clicks on my 50cc which didn't go much over 60kph
 
Looks like CWG is discussing explicit specialization in class scope.
 
3:07 PM
and it was actually really enjoyable
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think the benefits are minimal. It might do good to a lot of motorcyclists, but not car drivers.
 
@thecoshman Now that's a very loaded question. I'm still thinking how to answer that.
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's meant to be loaded
 
Riding a motorcycle or a bicycle makes you more aware of motorcyclists and bikers when you're driving a car, and that makes life better for motorcyclists.
 
you do not deserve to risk the safety of others simply for 'fun'
 
3:08 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Arguably those two align.
 
But for car drivers? Arguably useless.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, I also think that cities would have a lot less traffic/parking issues if more people used bikes :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Being more aware and possibly a safer driver is useless?
 
I don't know about safer.
 
@Morwenn But it's only 2017
 
3:10 PM
You have to look to more places if you're looking for bikers/cyclists, so you might miss other stuff.
 
@thecoshman Well the thing is that the imagined "safety" you're talking about is still purely theoretical at this point. I've been given a licence to drive, and I'm expected to abide by law, which I presume, as a social construct, means a certain agreement to the risks involved.
 
ok... if I may take this back to computers stuff... I have nginx reverse proxy from <ip>:80/jenkins to <jenkins server>:8080/jenkins` but for some reason the jenkins server seems to love to try to bring me to <jenkins ip>:80/jenkins which breaks shit
 
user784668
Hi, @BartekBanachewicz. Are you Barteking again?
 
IOW to turn your question around, would you impose such restrictions on a society that's willingfully taking those risks?
@Fanael oh hi there. Long time. And yes :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's no reasonable agreement when we have the choice of a tenth of the risks.
Heck, even half.
 
3:11 PM
But that's an assumption, isn't it? Democracies tend to be stupid.
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, if you were willing to wait till you had that licence, then you were willing to accept that public safety matters, and thus should be willing to accept a self driving car that is safer for the public than you as a generic perosn
 
People tend to vote against what would really benefit them.
 
@BartekBanachewicz What assumption?
@BartekBanachewicz It happens, yes. I'm not sure if it's "tend to", though.
 
@AldwinCheung Don't worry, they're probably discussing it for C++27.5 :p
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That people would explicitly express that they want public driving banned if that had the gains you describe.
 
3:12 PM
@BartekBanachewicz oh right well then, problem solved, give me a machine gun and let me celebrate on the streets
¬_¬
<tap out>
 
user784668
My code runs at over 4 IPC, is this normal?
 
@thecoshman if that met with the consensus of the society and thus the laws where I live, yes. IOW I wouldn't break the law to drive manually. That being said, I'm going to drive manually as long as the law allows me to.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I think it's a bit like slavery. It ended when the benefits were no longer "more" than the moral implications.
 
I think that's a terrible analogy.
 
Why?
I think human drivers will end when the benefits no longer justify the moral implications.
 
3:14 PM
With that kind of stretch you could extend it to way more than just driving, to all activities that might endanger other people.
Say, running jet engines in your backyard.
 
@BartekBanachewicz And I would have no qualms with that.
 
Or bicycling in busy cities
 
@BartekBanachewicz Another example is eating meat.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Somehow I'm feeling I might prefer the more primitive and less civilized humanity.
 
It's "wrong" but not "wrong enough" to fight the other pressures.
Same for human drivers when there's a choice otherwise.
 
3:16 PM
@BartekBanachewicz You wouldn't have motorcycles in primitive humanity.
 
@Morwenn well there's primitive and there's primitive. There are people who consider ICE-powered crotch rockets primitive and think we should all move in self-driven electric cars instead.
 
Is this a self-driving cars vs vegans debate
 
user784668
@AldwinCheung It's a Bartek vs non-Bartek debate
 
@BartekBanachewicz FWIW, I made mention of "primitive".
 
@Fanael If there's anything I've learned from those "debates", it's that you should never consider your particular world view set in stone and ultimately superior. People on the other side tend to have at least some sense.
 
3:20 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Basically my point is that it's not "if", it's just "when".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ditto.
 
At some point self-driven cars will be safe and ubiquitous enough that people will scorn human drivers for making the immoral choice.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's an opinion, isn't it?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Unless you want to claim that they will never be safe and ubiquitous enough, I don't see how it can be subjective.
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Will they ever be safe, though?
 
3:22 PM
Anyway, the more interesting one for me is whether you'd be willing to introduce a law banning that even if it meant general disagreement?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Except on small islands. People mostly don't give a fuck on small islands x)
 
@Morwenn I intentionally avoided a mention of scale :) I'm sure it won't happen everywhere at the same time.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That would also need to mean they'll get cheaper than manually driven cars.
 
@BartekBanachewicz You mean like when we banned death penalty?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Hard to be ubiquitous otherwise.
 
user784668
3:23 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I look at IoT and it makes me not want to have a self-driven car.
 
Sure you can impose gigantic taxes on manually driven cars.
 
@Morwenn Or, again, slavery.
 
@Morwenn "We" isn't the entire world
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz The entire civilized world banned death penalty.
 
And I still think that slavery and death penalty are much easier to sell than banning freedom of movement
 
3:24 PM
@BartekBanachewicz So?
 
So maybe peeking out of the comfort zone of what you consider "civilized world" would do you both good
 
@BartekBanachewicz You're looking at it from your biased modern world upbringing.
 
Not doing that was why Hillary lost, remember
 
@BartekBanachewicz also lolwut, freedom of movement.
Is this a false dichotomy you're trying to establish here?
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz wat
 
3:25 PM
I didn't talk about civilized or whatever, just that governments still pass mostly unpopular laws without giving that much of a fuck.
 
Oh, another good example: smoking.
 
@Fanael That's been the cause that's been pretty abundant. Ignoring the non-ultra-modern views and scorning all people who hold them as <put your fav insult here>
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz what does killary have to do with anything again
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes so you think that giving total control to your car won't limit that? As little of a paranoid freak as I am, I can't believe this.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Re "ultra-modern views", you'll notice how I keep referring to history.
 
3:27 PM
@Fanael Trump is ruling because people didn't want to listen. Because they shut off more traditional views as outdated or cruel or not fitting.
@R.MartinhoFernandes in lack of better term
I'd rather not say "far right" there, but that's more or less obviously what I mean
 
what is going on
 
@Fanael nice to know I'm a barbarian
 
@AldwinCheung Pointless stuff to kill time over and over again :p
 
@AldwinCheung Bartek is upset that someone will take away his guns motorbike.
@BartekBanachewicz Oh, s/ban/limit/ now?
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz lol, it's a de facto single party system, they're both corporate shills and there's very little difference between them
 
3:29 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes heck no, we rely on motorcycle accidents for organ donations!
 
Le point météo de la soirée : Bartek sur toute la France.
 
@Mgetz That's easy to fix. Death penalty!
 
@Fanael I disagree.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes actually no, the chemicals make it so you can't use them. Also human rights issues.
 
@Mgetz Do it like China.
 
3:30 PM
@Mgetz you don't have to use chemical killing
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'd rather not...
 
@Mgetz (for reference edition.cnn.com/2016/06/23/asia/china-organ-harvesting; I might be joking, but it's actually a thing)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes well, and you don't expect me to be upset for what, the Greater Good? The "better" world in which we'll all travel safe?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm aware, I'm also aware of the alleged mandatory death sentence quotas
 
@BartekBanachewicz That's also why we have bans on slavery, and bans on smoking.
I put in smoking in case you dismiss the slavery one as too extreme.
 
3:32 PM
Funny.
It's all about how we prefer to die, isn't it.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz I'd prefer not to die, but each to his own, I guess?
 
@Fanael Well you'll die anyway, in some way
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes strictly speaking slavery is anti-economic too... it's a major jobs killer
 
it's unlikely we'll get indefinite lifespans in our lifetime
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes But I'm tried of cleaning my own place, I want to acquire a little albino kid and have him clean my house for me. And when it's raining, I will have him carry a huge umbrella for me
 
3:34 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I want 14.8.2 [temp.deduct] to be read as my obituary.
3
 
@thecoshman the fact there is probably a victorian term for such a person amuses me
 
@Mgetz 'boy'?
 
Anyway, I don't worry too much about driving being banned
 
@thecoshman nah think fancier, probably something like: Ostler, Master of the Umbrella
 
it's still gonna take years and I intend to use those years well
 
user784668
3:36 PM
I have an idea.
 
user784668
Let's ban Barteking!
 
ban banning
 
@Fanael until you do though, I'm going to do as much Barteking as I can! It's clearly the best way to be
 
Live Barteking. Die Barteking.
 
@thecoshman coming from someone who not so long ago wanted to buy a motorcycle as well :D
 
3:40 PM
surprised nobody brought up the A Modest Proposal satire
 
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, still do. But I don't see how that's an issue here.
 
@Mgetz That's the sort of thing I meant when I said that its benefits were no longer more important than the moral implications.
 
@thecoshman it would seem it stands in vicious disagreement with your other views
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes it's not like we haven't known this for ages. The Romans were the first to find this out IIRC
 
@BartekBanachewicz It certainly doesn't sit easy no
 
3:42 PM
@Mgetz Yep, and slavery sorta stopped (at least the West) after the Roman Empire fell. We rediscovered it later on in Africa, and had another round.
 
I guess it'll feel even worse when you actually start driving one. They really are enjoyable.
I drove my bike to work today accidentally, still on lookout for a new helmet
4
 
@BartekBanachewicz What? Today, smoking bans are usually confined to public places. It's about what it does to others as much as it is about what it does to you. Public smoking bans have successfully improved the health of non-smokers.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Like, how do you drive a bike accidentally.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz It's like, I dunno, accidentally making someone pregnant.
 
nwp
@Fanael these things happen
 
3:44 PM
@Fanael lel, meant incidentally
come on, it was a typo :D
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah, I know. I mean no one wants to die because of someone else, I guess.
 
user784668
I was just reading on how to renounce Polish citizenship.
 
user784668
Fuck, it's complicated.
 
@Fanael why would you renounce any citizenship?
 
Plenty of reasons
 
@BartekBanachewicz Many countries don't allow multiple nationalities.
 
3:50 PM
@BartekBanachewicz protest?
 
Say if you want to, e.g., become a German citizen, you have to renounce, e.g., Russian citizenship.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes wut, really?
 
well yes
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that can’t prevent you from applying to another one though, I would expect that renouncing is assumed and implicit once you are granted another one
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Yes.
 
3:52 PM
I thought since there are, you know, citizenship markets, it shouldn't be a problem
 
@LucDanton Often you need to provide documentation on the renouncing.
@BartekBanachewicz Also, some citizenships are viewed negatively by other countries.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz Look, sole reason I have dual nationality is precisely because Poland is in the EU.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes oh right, when applying for an exclusive nationality then
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz And Germany allows dual nationality only with other EU nations and Switzerland IIRC.
 
If you have an Israeli passport, you cannot enter certain countries, like say, Iran.
@Fanael Yeah.
 
3:53 PM
@Fanael well then that shouldn't be a problem
@R.MartinhoFernandes unless that
 
And, at least, at some point in history, if not still present day, some countries require you to renounce the citizenship to obtain an exit visa.
I know that was true of Belarus in the early 90s.
(Exit visas are disgusting)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you mean to leave them at all?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yes.
Oh, I forgot another reason: some countries are just dicks.
US citizens have to do taxes in the US even if they're living and working abroad.
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Some, hah.
 
@Fanael Note the "just".
 
4:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Indeed.
 
@AldwinCheung Sweden + Finland make a better dick.
 
à vos pinceaux
 
@Morwenn Ah, the old euro coins.
 
user784668
@Morwenn Sweden is a huge dick.
 
@Fanael But Finland is required if you want it to have balls.
 
4:23 PM
@Shoe RE:Nomic Use fast forward merges when you can
 
4:51 PM
 
5:04 PM
wat
gtfo feeds
 
@thecoshman What do you mean?
 
user1804599
@R.MartinhoFernandes This is also applicable for stamps right?
 
user1804599
Which is why you can ask for stamps on a separate card nowadays IIRC
 
@Shoe when you merge, there are two ways to do it on GH, you did the 'bad' way the results in (imo) messy merge commits
 
Oh
 
5:15 PM
@rightfold They just do it by default. At least they did for me without request.
 
@thecoshman TIL
 
user1804599
Ah.
 
user1804599
omg TIL server-sent events
 
user1804599
so much simpler than websockets for one-way traffic
 
@rightfold Though even stamps from other countries might ban you. If you have an Egyptian stamp from the Sinai border, they'll refuse entry because there's only one country you could have crossed from.
 
user1804599
5:17 PM
:V
 
5:46 PM
Real burger
Damn
 
6:27 PM
Meh.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I agree. There is snow everywhere, what global warming?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure, it's funny, but it highlights how a lot of people don't understand the difference between "climate" and "temperature".
 
Faux News is just too mockable
I'm kinda sad that Trump's not attending the White House Correspondents Dinner
 
6:59 PM
Meh, watching an overgrown child break down would have been quite awkward.
 
user1804599
    status = 0
    GO TO 501
500 status = 1
    CALL perror('adsd')
501 CONTINUE
 
user1804599
feels like C
 
7:25 PM
> The concept also makes use of Samsung's Artik Cloud connectivity and storage functions. It will look at data from your devices and then calibrate the car's responses to suit. So, for example, the Peugeot could call up data from your smartwatch and establish that you'd been working hard at the gym. It would then automatically engage its 'soft' mode for a relaxing, restful drive home.
 
Ven
TIL GNU C allows f(a)*a{}; to declare int f(int* a){}
 
7:42 PM
@BartekBanachewicz And then sell that information to "select partners".
 
user1804599
@Ven kek
 
@Ven how eresting
 
Ven
K&inteResting
 
8:06 PM
afternoon
 
Good afternoon puppy
 
trying to decide
is it wise to broadcast all mouse and keyboard events to all UI elements
fuck it, yes
 
user1804599
@Puppy Yes, and apply parallelism.
 
need to decide how I actually want parallelism to work first
 
user1804599
Chapel.
 
8:10 PM
what?
 
user1804599
Chapel.
 
that does not answer any question I may have had
 
user1804599
Too bad.
 
hmm
so let's say that an element listens to mouse events and its children listen to mouse events
then you click
what if the parent re-renders and erases the child element half way through?
 
@Puppy what are you working on?
@Puppy can't. Must be an atomic operation.
 
8:13 PM
am looking at porting React to C# targetting DirectX
 
Well, look at React Native?
 
I did
 
oh wait you mean you want it written in C#. Tough luck.
 
but it's still written in JS, so fuck that shit
also that whole "mobile devices" thing
 
@Puppy well JS is much more powerful than C#
 
Ven
8:14 PM
power
that's a thing you can compare in languages 4 sure
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's also shit
just that minor issue
 
@Puppy But it gets the job done in a complex FP scenario like react.
I doubt C# will.
 
actually
C#'s mostly fine with it
 
I'll just remind you that I still haven't solved the problem in Haskell
 
there's a few more news around but it's really not a problem
not a big problem, anyway
and the whole not being shit thing is a good start
 
8:16 PM
oh well, good luck
 
@BartekBanachewicz Yeah, but I can implement my functional interface with mutable state if I want to ;p
 
anyway I personally think that there's way too much being said about how shitty js is actually
@Puppy sigh. I wish people stopped thinking that Haskell can't do state and/or side effects.
 
well
 
you of all people
 
it would help if people didn't incessantly wank about how everything and all side effects must be in the type system
 
8:17 PM
@Puppy they don't have to. You can mark every function IO.
 
encountering a single person who ever decided that a bit of mutable state in the right place was actually just fine who also writes Haskell is a pretty much never-happens
@BartekBanachewicz You could do, but it doesn't seem that anybody does.
 
@Puppy that's nonsense and the ST monad is a perfect counterexample
 
it's not a perfect counter-example of anything
 
The fact you can't understand it doesn't mean it's not a good example.
 
it pretty much does, actually
 
8:19 PM
@Puppy And why do you think that is?
@Puppy Well, since you're lazy, ST is basically what you said. Localized, enclosed state.
 
ok
 
it's not state in the sense of State
 
in that case, I recommend you lead with that
 
it's a raw, mutable, fast state
 
instead of "ST monad"
which makes it sound like more pointless type system wanking
 
8:20 PM
pointfree type system wanking is better
 
@Puppy in this particular case, ST is designed to not escape into the signature
fibST :: Integer -> Integer
fibST n =
    if n < 2
    then n
    else runST $ do
        x <- newSTRef 0
        y <- newSTRef 1
        fibST' n x y
 
well
 
(the runST part, as a stateful computation, is important here)
 
in that case, I don't see what the problem is with doing a React-style thing in Haskell
 
Well I didn't do it exactly like react, remember
 
8:21 PM
the C# one was pretty easy to get started
mine's not exactly like React either
 
I had Hate constraints to start with
aaand IIRC I wanted the update propagation to be explicit in the type system
that was the problematic part
 
there ya go
type system wanking -> mo problems
 
the alternative is dynamic typing of update effects
 
actually
to be more accurate, it's not really a thing
 
do you think I couldn't write a version that simply crashed on invalid states I'd allow?
 
8:24 PM
the truth is that local component state is just not that useful
 
I did that in the process of working on mine. It was easy af.
 
and you could just drop it
 
@Puppy mousehover on button
 
yeah, but that's what you have local mutable state ST monad for.
your internal state that the caller doesn't need to care about
or let me put it another way
there's the Big State, and there's the little state
for the Big State, you want all the shit
 
@AldwinCheung I'd go a step further and request a 5-day party reading the entirety of n4141
 
8:25 PM
for the little state, just fuck it, hide that shit away, preferably don't even admit that it might exist
 
@Puppy yeah, it seems I didn't. I actually have a branch called mouse-hover from back in Austria
handleEvent evt (AnyElement (e :: e)) = (sE, AnyElement selfE)
    where
        (sE, selfE) = (handleEvent evt e :: SelfEffect s e)
the self-effect part was indeed problematic as fuck
oh well, I'll get back to that someday. For now it's turnip time
 
currently I could bake more interesting concepts
but I decided that I did not want to impose too many constraints in my core and I should be flexible
so atm I use e.g. Action<MouseEvent> for stuff.
definitely thinking about adding a React.Redux support
 
8:59 PM
@AldwinCheung nsfw dans la série 'regarde tout ce que tu rates pendant que tu t’expatries' je te présente pendant ce temps, au lycée catholique
 
user1804599
9:31 PM
lol bikeshedding about different ways to implement terrible ideas like mutable state
 
@LucDanton aha,
 
9:50 PM
tell me, how White Helmets got Oscar?
it's even worse than Obama with his Peace Nobel Prize. At least Obama did nothing at the moment of getting it, other than being the first colored POTUS
 
@Abyx Dark Helmet never got one for Spaceballs, so they figured White Helmet must need one.
 
@Abyx i agree.
 
The White Helmets, officially known as Syria Civil Defence (SCD; Arabic: الدفاع المدني السوري‎‎), is a paid volunteer civil defense organisation that currently operates in parts of rebel-controlled Syria. The White Helmets should not be confused with the Syrian Civil Defence Forces which have been a member of the ICDO (International Civil Defence Organization) since 1972, unlike the White Helmets. == History == The rescue teams that later became SCD emerged in late 2012, when the Syrian government of Bashar al-Assad began to lose significant amounts of territory to the Free Syrian Army in...
it's even on the wiki
> Videos and pictures published on the internet show members of the White Helmets carrying arms, waving the flag of Jabhat al-Nusra (al-Qaeda in Syria), or disrespecting corpses of Free Syrian Army soldiers. In one of the videos, the White Helmets facilitate an execution carried out by al-Nusra.[63] A video of al-Nusra executing someone by firing squad which was facilitated by the White Helmets can be viewed at the following link at the 3 minute 3 second mark:[64]
 
10:10 PM
An INTERNET CONNECTED TEDDY BEAR was hacked and kids' voice messages are being held to ransom https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/internet-of-things-teddy-bear-leaked-2-million-parent-and-kids-message-recordings
 
10:41 PM
> STL: As long as no one from ISO actually notices, I think we can get away with it in Annex D.
Shhhh,don't tell ISO.
 
10:54 PM
@Morwenn the outcome of that discussion was rather underwhelming, though, keeping UCS-2 which was obsolete in 1996 (though it took Unicode more years to throw away)
 
Today has mostly been about national bodies comment processing, right?
 
also structured bindings vs decomposition declarations
 
We're getting structured bindings, right?
 
@Cubbi Oh yeah, that one seemed like a waste of committee's time .____.
 
@Mikhail we're getting it, but we don't know what to call it
 
10:57 PM
those sheds won’t paint themselves you know
 
Anyway, I need to go to sleep. Later :)
 

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