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12:00 AM
Uh hu, yup. We're here. https://t.co/HbKGZ4p6UP
Haha <3 those idgits
@Xeo Thanks, I know what to watch during lunch tomorrow :)
 
12:51 AM
That row hammer test is gonna take a while...
Maybe I should've taken out 32GB of ram first.
Never before have I wanted my hardware to fail a stress-test - let alone this badly.
 
@Mysticial I forget--have you seen the problem arise in your code with that memory removed?
 
@JerryCoffin Nope. The overnight run survived. And today's day run on the trunk build also survived.
Only two data points so far. But passing runs take 8 hours. And it was only yesterday did I narrow it down to the placement new.
 
@Mysticial I meant: with the code that did cause the problem, did it happen with that memory removed, or only when it was present?
 
Oh. Yes it did.
The original 16GB that came with the laptop failed 1/1 test.
 
@Mysticial In that case, yeah, removing it would probably be better. For a test like this, it's probably best to have the machine stripped to the minimum necessary to show the symptoms (the hardware equivalent of an MCVE).
 
1:03 AM
yeah
 
@Mysticial Many years ago, I was having trouble with a machine, so I'd pulled everything to pieces, including yanking the motherboard out of the case. I kind of lost track of time, so I'm not sure who was more surprised when my girlfriend of the time showed up and found me sitting on the floor, nearly surrounded by computer parts. From what she said, I looked more than a little like the classic mad scientist...
 
@Mysticial what is an average cycle count for pow, assuming both arguments 0<x<1 and no denormal/nan/inf worries
 
user1593881
About this enormous influx of assignment questions... Is something going to be done with it or should we live with the noise?
 
@RawN We've been living with it for years now...
 
user1593881
@JerryCoffin I've raised my hand to ban this noise multiple times on meta. To no avail.
 
user1593881
1:19 AM
The lack of political will to solve this easy addressable problem.
 
how would it be easy to address?
 
@RawN At one time, we actually had a tag, but that was apparently too easy and effective, so it was burninated.
 
@JerryCoffin how evil is it if you get a golden badge in homework then proceed to hammer 'em all
 
Welp... 50% done with test and still no row hammer errors. This isn't good.
 
@Mysticial how is that not good?
 
1:24 AM
@orlp A lot. Probably several hundred cycles.
 
@Cubbi Sometimes I think people forget just how much of C++ is part of the compiler and not part of the runtime. To be fair, they often look the same syntactically, even though they don't do the same things behind the scenes
 
@orlp If I can confirm that my laptop is vulnerable to row hammer, that would (almost) finally put an end to my unit test instability saga. The final test is for me to manually increase the row refresh rate and see if the errors go away.
 
@Mysticial ah
 
@Mysticial ... Well this bug is turning out to be one of the most unusual cases of failure I've heard of.
 
Even if memtest86 fails to find a row hammer failure, if increasing the refresh rate gets rid of the errors, I'll still be satisfied.
I'm not convinced that the failures that I'm hitting are precisely row hammer. But maybe something related to too many requests and general stress.
 
1:27 AM
@Mysticial that's being a physicist
you test whether gravity works 1 million times, and everytime it seems to work
you have learned nothing :P
@Mysticial cosmic rays?
have you tried putting your machines in faraday cages?
only half kidding
 
@Mysticial Yes, we've narrowed it down at least to something in that line of code which causes the hardware to misbehave. Thankfully it isn't actually your code. Unfortunately it isn't actually your code.
 
@orlp Faraday cages don't block cosmic rays. Cosmic rays powerful enough to cause bit flips have wavelengths too small for a faraday cage to block. :)
 
@Mysticial fine, 2500kg lead bunker?
make sure to reinforce your floor first :)
 
Honestly, I empathize with how functional advocates want to eradicate side-effects because debugging is much easier, but I don't think we'll ever entirely succeed. Even flawless code is prone to bugs... like not being connected to void mains
And as far as I can tell, you've been debugging an unforeseen side-effect that may not be documented very well
 
@Aaron3468 Based on what (seems to have) caused the failure, yes, clearly--including or excluding the value initialization shouldn't have made any difference at all.
 
1:45 AM
Is worth to learn D ?
 
user1593881
Well, my efforts on Meta to ban the assignment questions went south :(
 
Someone of you tried?
 
@Mysticial Do you have multiple dlls? I found an SO question where someone had corruption of member variables because two projects were receiving different alignment/padding from instances declared by the same header file.
 
@Ramy Several of us have played with D at various times. I'd say it's worth at least a little time exploring--you might be pretty happy with it.
 
@Aaron3468 Nothing beyond the usual system DLLs (kernel32.dll) which are unavoidable.
 
1:50 AM
@Mysticial Ah, alright. That's probably not it then
 
@Mysticial Can we have a chat on gmail ? Hangouts
or here too, but i don't know how to start a private room
 
@Ramy It's not a matter of worth. Mess around with the language a bit and learn about it if you're interested, and ignore it if not. The only time coding skills are really worth it is when they are required by your job. They're certainly helpful to acquire, and won't hurt you :)
 
@Aaron3468 I've been a intentionally avoiding 3rd party libraries as much as possible. Though that isn't really possible anymore. Especially with Cilk and some of the NUMA stuff that I'm experimenting with.
 
2:14 AM
Looks like fun, although definitely a bit of effort to use them effectively
 
The NUMA stuff?
 
The numa stuff looks like it'll mostly be automated. cilk requires forethought
 
You mean the other way around?
 
They're both amenable to being automated but require forethought to use by hand.
 
Cilk is easy to use.
NUMA is difficult.
 
2:24 AM
cilk is definitely the easier one to learn/reason about. Isn't a lot of the NUMA stuff done automatically by the computer and/or compiler?
 
@Aaron3468 Not at all for NUMA. NUMA is the architecture. libNuma lets you access it.
Like manually allocate memory on a specific node. Or pin threads to a specific node.
 
Ah, I'm used to the convenience of having the language built on top of the architecture, rather than requiring a library and scheduling by hand. Why does NUMA require the special treatment?
 
NUMA is basically a shared memory version of distributed computing.
If you aren't careful with where you place your data or threads, performance will go down the drain. The OS can't predict where it should put things. And if you have data that needs to be shared by everyone, there may not be a good place to put it.
 
Ah, so then latency is so high that you must dispatch it with the end result in mind; something even an OS would be unable to do. Then there's no reason you couldn't whip together an OS made for NUMA, but it's optimal decisions at each iteration would sacrifice the optimal performance of the calculation.
 
@rightfold I managed to get OPAM and stuff, weee.
Albeit, the ocaml compiler confuses me.
I can't just do ocaml myinput.ml
It... doesn't seem to like it
 
2:37 AM
@Aaron3468 Both Linux and Windows support NUMA. And the policy is simple whenever a thread allocates, put the memory on the same node as the thread.
That works for tons of small independent programs. But not for programs that are trying to use the entire machine as if it were uniform.
 
Oh.
It's ocamlc
Like javac
Why do they do that. =/
 
@ThePhD like rustc and gcc ;)
 
And now the program doesn't really compile... RIP
 
@Mysticial So NUMA is ideal for servers, but not really mainframes?
 
@Aaron3468 That's one way to put it.
Or you design your supercomputing application to properly utilize NUMA locality.
My Pi program already does this for swap-mode computations that use disk.
All data is on the disk, and memory is used as a cache.
All transfers between memory and disk are done manually and kept to a minimum because it's slow.
The thing that I'm experimenting with is to keep the same concept. But instead of disk, I replace it with memory that's interleaved across all the NUMA nodes.
The same algorithms that "understand" that disk is slow and therefore minimize access to it should (theoretically) work just as well if the disk is actually remote NUMA memory.
 
2:45 AM
And if you can manage that, it won't be unheard of for people to get to quadrillions of pi digits
 
There's still a scalability problem though. The "final" solution is something hierarchical rather than 2 levels.
But that's MUCH more difficult to implement.
I run a two-layer thing between L3 cache and memory. And I have another 2-level thing between memory and disk. So essentially 3 layers of memory awareness. But they're implemented at different levels of abstraction. So the complexity of each one doesn't actually touch 3 levels.
 
That is true. It's often many orders of magnitude easier to add a new case than it is to generalize all the existing and future cases
 
Once the "replace disk with NUMA" thing works, the next step is gonna be harder.
Since I've booted out the disk, I've lost the ability to use disk.
The idea that I'm (planning) to toy with is to then turn the NUMA portion into an associative cache for the disk.
IOW, hide the disk access from the program itself. This can go wrong in so many different ways. But since it's still far off, I haven't started looking deep into this.
 
Yeah, I feel that it'll be a project that could easily take a few months, maybe a year or two to finish
 
Years (in plural).
It took me years just to get any sort of 2-level memory awareness to work in a way that's manageable from the development standpoint.
 
2:56 AM
True, the bugs would add quite a bit more to it. You'd have a very crippled version of your program running if it only took months ^^;
 
I'm at 3 right now. L3 -> memory -> NUMA -> disk is 4. And I'm not looking forward to it.
If you want to include all the "fit in register" optimizations, then add an additional level. lol
The lower levels are easier to reason with. You don't have to worry about multi-threading and allocation. And when all else fails or gets too ugly, you can drop the awareness and it will still work. (just less efficiently)
The higher levels with disk access are much harder.
 
3:10 AM
STL liked my talk <3
 
> Le tribunal de Vannes en "cessation de paiement"
 
3:20 AM
@Mysticial Reminds me of a tagline one of the guys on comp.lang.asm.x86 used to use. Something to the effect that "from the right perspective, all of computing can be viewed as an exercise in caching."
 
3:30 AM
@Griwes I missed your talk for the spectacle of cross-platform mobile development with visual studio (it barely works with help of random things downloaded from MS blogs)
 
3:59 AM
@Griwes You gonna post it somewhere?
 
@ThePhD Well, all CppCon talks land on YouTube. :P
 
@Griwes Kinky.
I am not sure how I am going to stay in SF for 3/4 days.
I don't have the money to afford any of the nearby hotels.
 
Asimov's Cosmic AC was created by linking all datacenters through hyperspace, which explains a lot. It didn't reverse entropy--it just discarded the universe when it reached end-of-life and ordered a new one.
3
 
It doesn't help that they're 200+ dollars each, and the lowest one dips to 170ish per night.
Maybe I can find some other kind of way of staying.
 
@ThePhD are you gay or female?
but not both
 
4:09 AM
@orlp Uh. Don't know about the first, no to the second...?
Why does that matter?
 
you can, uh, sleep around
 
:I
 
and considering how much of a sausage fest these cons are
being gay or female is a big pre
 
Holy shit these people on AirBnB are creepy.
Aaahhhh but it's so much cheaper.
Rooms for like 80 bucks a night.
 
maybe shelter is overrated?
 
4:14 AM
> This is a NO LOCKS home
NOPE.JPG
NOT EVEN ONCE
I mean. If I could just find a Janitor's Closet and a place to shower, I'll be fine.
 
@ThePhD A tent (or a decent-sized car) and a membership in a national health club...
 
@JerryCoffin Don't own a sleeping bag and I unfortunately cannot drive yet.
I hope to get my permit in the next month and start learning though.
 
4:30 AM
@ThePhD sleeping bags are like $80 from my dim memories and you can make a terrible one by sewing up a comforter
probably don't need a real temperature rating
just bring a dog
I mean
the good ones are in the $200 range, but even REI sells one at around $80, even if it's only guaranteed to 30F
 
@ThePhD Also note that you don't have to actually stay in SF. A hotel in Oakland (for example) that's close to a BART terminal could save a fair amount of money (and be nearly as convenient).
 
now a tent
 
@jaggedSpire It's not like SF ever gets terribly cold (or extremely hot, for that matter). Really need a mattress pad to go under the sleeping bag though.
 
a tent is probably going to be more expensive but, much like the sleeping bag, it's more of a one-time investment
@JerryCoffin nah, PhD's young. Even a big rock'll probably only cause stiffness for an hour or two
oh hey tents are actually around the same price
When I move back to someplace that isn't an insect-ridden nightmare I'll have to purchase one
 
@jaggedSpire Hey, I'm probably older than you. D:<
 
4:39 AM
@ThePhD probably, yeah. Still young enough not to regret it for days and days later, probably
make sure to get a good sleeping pad, really
 
Wait, how many years are you done with your undergrad?
 
Rocks were amusing when I was 15. Eight years later I don't have the recent experience to confirm it but they're probably a lot less funny now
 
@jaggedSpire Not about stiffness. Sleeping bag directly on ground means you'll freeze, even in a bag rated for much colder than you're in. Always need a pad unless you're using the bag indoors.
 
@ThePhD two
 
.... ;;
I, uh. Mightbeyounger.
 
4:40 AM
@JerryCoffin really? Huh. Never had a problem, but then again it was usually Utah or Colorado in summertime
 
@jaggedSpire Some outdoor stores can rent you a tent for a week.
 
@JerryCoffin ooooh
 
I'm not sure where I'd camp out in SF's Financial District, though.
 
about the length of time I'd be able to get off to traipse around the Colorado Plateau
 
@ThePhD Don't try. Camp out in Berkeley and take the BART into SF.
 
4:41 AM
@ThePhD nah brah, campgrounds
wait
I'm 24 now
it's nine years later
 
....
Jagged pls
 
what?
I only hit 24 like three weeks ago
 
Shit
We're the same age.
 
Don't you fuckin' catface me.
It means nothing.
 
4:43 AM
:3
 
So what if I'm not done with my undergrad yet? I don't need to overload courses!
 
...
 
NO I haven't spent more than 4 years in Undergrad, I had to stop for a while!
Don't you judge me.
 
I was actually going for we are so similar come to the dark side but if you want to read new levels of cruelty into matters be my guest
 
Grumblemumble.
 
4:44 AM
it only makes you all the more suited for the Catface
 
I'm gonna go cook.
 
that you can find new depths to my words :3
 
@ThePhD Don't remember why it just occurred to me, but I'm suddenly reminded of a martini bar I used to go to. Had a sign on the wall saying something like: "In this bar, sexual harassment is graded on a scale of 1 to 10, and reported to the police if it falls below a 4."
 
below a 4?
 
@Mysticial No criteria given for how scoring is determined...
 
5:05 AM
"ETL pipelines"
 
5:52 AM
@JerryCoffin eyy bby are u a 10
 
Ven
Hi
 
@orlp Unfortunately, anymore I'm a 200+ (but I've been riding my bike again, so hopefully I can lose at least a little of the excess weight).
 
That feeling when there’s a slide titled "Compiler bugs" and it's Clang's bug, not MSVC's.
6
STL's reaction to my talk. lol
 
Ven
Where are your slides
 
At the CppCon 2016 github repo.
 
Ven
6:07 AM
.pdf?
 
yes
Do I look like a savage to have them in any other form?
 
Ven
.pff
Gonna ruin my data plan :(
 
ugh some people starring my personal repo instead of the org repo that my repo is a fork of
 
Ven
@Griwes what's the name of your talk
 
@Ven You can find it by my name.
And you can find my name by my nick.
:P
(Variadic expansion in examples.)
 
Ven
6:15 AM
I'm really not awake enough to play detective
Thanks
 
@Griwes Does MSVC even support the bugged feature?
 
@AndyProwl I'm pretty sure that MSVC compiles both bugged features I mention in the talk.
I'm 100% sure that the lambda expansion thing works in MSVC. Pretty sure the enable_if<fjdsafndi, int>::type... thing also works there.
 
Ven
6:37 AM
That was a nice read
Though I knew about the bugs already :P
 
6:57 AM
@Griwes is it the same talk you gave at CppNow?
also is Bjarne giving the same talk over and over again?
Judging by the first 10 minutes, I'd say so
 
Ven
7:15 AM
yes he is
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl I wonder if he'll also give that one at MeetingC++.
 
Seems quite likely to me
 
Xeo
Would be quite a waste
 
I think if he had something new to say he'd do it at CppCon
Now I'm hoping to see a slide with a list of the features he considered high prio and didn't get there
 
I'm so nervous.
I have to do the recruiter meet thing again.
 
7:25 AM
hm, no onebox
 
https ?
 
yeah
CppCon edition
 
Heh.
 
@AndyProwl lol, I feel like the right picture most of the time. Especially after C++11 and later were introduced.
 
@Mike Nope. This is not what this lounge is for.
 
@Mike -1 for spamming your question tagged in the room where people are routinely browsing the tag. You might as well have sent us Jehova witnesses to our doors, and make them ask us "would you like to talk about mongo-cxx".
also ffs, your question isn't even 10 minutes old
Are you really that impatient?
 
@milleniumbug MongoDB witnesses
 
8:18 AM
Functional language syntax is weird.
 
It's called dysfunctional language syntax, then
 
My desktop background is that (Cartoon of a) dog who's sat in a burning room saying "this is fine", it makes me happy to see it when I lock my computer. I'm so sad :'(
 
Without emacs or VIM I don't really have an OCaml editor.
Guess I'll just... notepad it.
 
Ven
Emacs + merlin + tuareg = #goodware
 
@ThePhD On Windows? Just get Emacs for Windows or something?
@ThePhD Also, there are Vim distros for Windows as well, AFAIK.
 
8:24 AM
@thecoshman why is this sad?
 
Also, there is always Cygwin with Emacs. :)
 
@wilx I know that, what I mean is I'm not proficient with them.
 
Ven
@slaphappy his comp is unlocked
also hi slap
 
@ThePhD Sublime Text 3
 
Hi.
 
8:25 AM
@milleniumbug Oh yeah, forgot that existed.
 
8:38 AM
@slaphappy the fact that that makes me happy :S
 
I am not having fun with functional syntax right now. <_>
 
Ven
use <***@>
 
Ugh.
How do I expand this dumb list...
Ffff.
 
Ven
?
 
"unbound value list_print" fuck
I bound it with let list_print (l: string list) : unit = ...
How is it unbound. :<
 
Ven
8:53 AM
wtf dude ;_;
@ThePhD you might not understand the idea of let .. in ...?
 
No.
I don't know what the in keyword is for.
 
Ven
let a = 3 in a
anyway please post a gist so we can tell you the issue :P
 
:<
I dun wanna. It's just gonna be bad code. I can figure it out...
 
Ven
let a = 1;;

blabla
should work
 
"x86_64-w64-mingw32-as is not a recognized as an internal or external command" somebody kill me.
"This expression has type 'a * 'b, but value was expected of type string" isn't that was list.iter is supposed to break apart for me...?!
Sigh, I give up.
It's not even a complicated program and I'm already failing
Oh.
, makes a tuple
; separates list items
That's.... not going to fuck me up.
Nope, not at all.
 
Ven
9:05 AM
you seem pretty confused :).
 
read a tutorial
also F# > ocaml
 
Ven
@ThePhD as a hint, here's how you'd implement list_print: let list_print = List.iter print_endline;;
 
[context: Fermi Paradox] What if everyone out there is a paperclipper and radio silence is an evolutionary feature of paperclippers? Reasoning being that noisy paperclippers are more likely to be targeted by predatory paperclippers.
 
Xeo
You and your paperclippers
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What if it is the way it is in the Dead Space series? :)
 
9:16 AM
Dunno how it is there.
Though I think we can be sure there are no paperclippers within our >100-ly bubble of expanding radio noise.
Surely any nearby ones would have pounced on us, lest we create another competitor.
@wilx I read up on it quickly and it doesn't seem to have any known alien lifeforms.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes They are all dead.
> Earl Serrano speculates that all life between the origin of the Moons and humanity's home system may have been extinguished because of the Moons, which would have mixed up countless species in their uniform biomass. The game proposes here an uncommon answer to the Fermi paradox: Humanity never had the opportunity to contact any aliens because a giant species of apex predators absorb all organic tissue within the universe, leaving much of our galaxy in a state of "dead space".
Dead Space is awesome.
 
9:32 AM
"uncommon"?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Dunno. I am just quoting from the page. :)
 
I think it's a pretty common one, right after the self-annihilation one.
It's the most natural consequence in a universe where paperclippers are possible.
@wilx Yeah, that reads just like a biomass-centered version of a paperclipper apocalypse. The only unusual thing about it is that it is focused only on biomass instead of any and all matter.
"Markers" are von Neumann probes (they're even self-replicating given the right conditions, i.e., curious and ambitious advanced civilizations copy them).
 
10:25 AM
@sehe I have a life outside of this website you know? — Dean 41 secs ago
What a prick.
 
@sehe Can't fix the title in 19h, but can respond to a comment in 2h
 
He responded to the first comment in minutes. Apologizing. #smh
 
Why #StackOverflow is a predominantly male resource: https://denaeford.wordpress.com/2016/07/20/paradise-unplugged-barriers-to-stack-overflow-use/
so females aren't much different from males
except for fears and lower qualification
 
10:40 AM
Meh so caring 4 SO ... sitting in a show but chat here coz only place to get free wifi these a few days ...
 
@sehe Such a unique specimen.
 
Already spent nearly $50-$100 on roaming ... Not even doing much, wtf
 
@Telkitty where're you?
 
九寨沟, China
 
How do you guys deal with Keepass (or equivalent) updates across multiple devices?
 
Ell
10:52 AM
put passwords.kbdx on dropbox
 
@Shoe Currently I don't
I make changes at my desktop, and copy the file to the rest of the devices
 
@Ell Wouldn't that be equivalent to using something like 1Password
 
I keep my safe on my server and sync via WebDAV.
 
Ell
@Shoe I've never used 1Password
the point is that they are encrypted on my device though
 
@Shoe Well, you have a guarantee that they don't hold an unencrypted copy, not just a promise.
 
Ell
10:54 AM
and dropbox is just a storage medium
 
In both forms you have a channel out of your control, but with KeePass + Dropbox your security does not depend on the security of the channel.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes right
I see
Is it true that 2-factor auth weakens the authentication?
 
where
 
I remember the CEO of a company I did a "stage" in saying that actually 2-factor auth weakens authentication and then went on babbling about things I didn't know
 
10:58 AM
2-factor auth means you need both factors, not one of them
 
@Shoe one should typically assume a CEO doesn't know anything about technical details
 
I don't know, he lost me at weird matrices
Didn't really care at the time
I was simply recommending using OAuth2 for the authentication and he said he didn't trust other companies because they allow 2-factor auth
Or something like that
 
11:13 AM
How exactly could 2-factor auth weaken auth
 
4
Q: Restrict variadic template arguments

bolovCan we restrict variadic template arguments to a certain type? I.e., achieve something like this (not real C++ of course): struct X {}; auto foo(X... args) Here my intention is to have a function which accepts a variable number of X parameters. The closest we have is this: template <class.....

 
@PatrickM'Bongo It makes sense if you look at it from the perspective that auth is meant to be broken!
 
> calling ip link set dev eth2 promisc on is slut shaming too
 
'France is populated by idiots making wine and stinky cheese' - Gerard Depardieu http://on.rt.com/7q23 https://t.co/YgzPn2J3gI
duh
 
lol
Technically true, though.
 
Ven
11:42 AM
@Shoe by stage you mean internship?
 
@Mysticial must have been confused it for the AVX/SSE switch which does have a cost as well
 
lol, Gérard Depardieu.
 
I'm looking for an S/F story I can't remember the title of
I remember the plot roughly
the clue of it was a dystopian society where all things had timed life placed on them with a special substance that made them fall apart after said time.
it really sounds like something Dick could write, but I'm not sure
welp, gonna ask on Sci-Fi
 
12:06 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes You want to work ?
 
0
Q: Identify a story about a dystopian society where things have timed life

Bartek BanachewiczI recently reminded myself about a book (a story, not sure) I've read way back about hypothetical future of Earth. I don't remember a lot from it, but the general idea was that the civilization has reached such levels of abundancy that they could produce things at arbitrary rate without human wo...

shameless promotion
Ironically I think at least some people here would like it, if I knew what it actually was
 
12:30 PM
 
That is exactly what I wanted it to be :D
 
Ven
why do people write "JAVA"
 
12:54 PM
@Ven s/write/write in/
 
why do people say J2EE
that's an ancient thing
like... ten years old at least
it's just JEE you scrubs
 
it doesn't even make sense
as in there's no "2" version of Java
 

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