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9:01 AM
Hmmm
Are functional programming languages more flexible since they're not imperative?
 
Ven
wat
please send help
 
For example, I'm reading this paper on optimizing imagine pipeines
The DSL they made is functional, so their compiler is left to optimize ordering, instructions, caching independently
An imperative DSL might've imposed ordering of operations if the compiler could not infer within time-invariance of certain groups of operations
 
Ven
You realize you use very, very overloaded words (sometimes meaningless like "flexible") without defining them at all, a providing a useful frame of reference to compare anything?
i.e.
 
@Ven What I mean is that an imperative language might've gotten in the way of the compiler being able to optimize order or caching vs. a functional one
 
Ven
what does "more flexible" mean? How do you define "functional"? How do you define "imperative"? Why would both of these conflict with each other? Why wouldn't order of operation matter in a "functional" language? Do you mean a language with referential transparency?
@fredoverflow "This is what I wanted in C++17. This was my prediction in early '15. And I'm going to get essentially nothing of this" - Bjarne Stroustrup (24:00)
 
9:11 AM
@Ven Functional as in a language that emphesizes the use of functions to describe computation and avoids mutable state, and imperative as in a language that emphesizes the use of sequenced statements to describe steps of computation
 
oh, poor Bjarne being hit with the reality of a committee
 
> explain to me what the deal is with all these land locked pirates
3
meanwhile, at Guild Wars 2’s
 
@LucDanton It's because of WotG that's what
 
Ven
@VermillionAzure Haskell is a great imperative language.
3
 
9:32 AM
@LucDanton I was reminded of this - not even that exaggerated - article speld.nl/2013/08/29/anglicismen-an-sich-steeds-meer-bon-ton Consider despeld.nl a parody site written by perverted linguists. Dutch verbarium
This episode is very good, and you won't be half hampered by limited knowledge of
@Ven It means you have more variety of positions that will not end up requiring prolonged physiological treatment
 
Ven
@sehe what if I don't lift?
 
@sehe what’s a verbarium? my translation thingy says it means 'error status: 403' but I don’t trust it
@sehe well in many cases I understand the Dutch better than the French
 
I was referring to the language spoken by them, though :)
@LucDanton It appears that the feeling was mutual :) here
 
oh of course, not understanding the French is part of the fun
 
:D
 
9:38 AM
@sehe whoah that’s a cool word
 
I think it's Greek counterpart is cool too.
 
@sehe I don’t think calling someone a 'logomachist' would come across as nicely as intended though
 
But... I like being a logomacho
Ok who of you just invited me on LinkedIn with a troll name?
 
for a moment I wondered whether flux de bouche came from culinary French
 
I don't even use LinkedIn anymore ... Maybe only accept connection requests once per couple of months ... Last time I logged on was a few days ago after they locked my account because security breach on their end ...
 
9:46 AM
wow it’s attested as a medical term in a 17th century manual
 
Also I fixed screen freeze issue for my current android app
Currently on the train & it's working perfectly so far ...
 
@LucDanton You gotta love the moist staining
 
@sehe I wonder if I would be presumptuous if I said this comes off as foreign to me as it does to you
 
Not at all. I'm aware of this snobbery in Dutch language culture
 
@LucDanton Here is why I asked about covariance and type erasure. For fun, I'm trying to implement a stack-allocated immutable string that uses a 2^N resize strategy, which seamlessly falls back to a reference-counted, type-erased string when run-time computations must be used. It's mostly a rough sketch right now. I'm unsure about its performance potential
 
9:49 AM
@LucDanton also. WTF. Google books search is awesome
 
yeah it is
@sehe ya know I would totally steal words such as 'Einzelgänger', too
 
The resize strategy is compile-time, which is the most interesting part I think
 
@fredoverflow ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME
How did I not know this!??!
I could've attended, all my CompSci mates are from Churchill
x(
Can't believe this
 
@sehe heh, predictably machine translation gets quite confused during the more interesting parts
 
9:55 AM
@BarrettAdair why don't you use std::forward
and why not just go 2N
 
My iPhone & android apps are giving different result when doing the same search ... Sadness
 
@VermillionAz What about std::forward? 2N doesn't scale. I don't want to have more than 31 class template instantiations. std::vector uses a similar resize strategy to achieve amortized O(1) push_back
@VermillionAzure you mean forward_t? I probably could there, you are right
 
One more feature & then I can release this app on the android market ... 💖😍😘🎊💛💚💙💜💔❣💕💞💓💗💖💘💝💟
 
@BarrettAdair yes
 
@VermillionAzure I remember now. I have to take the address of that function, so it can't be a template (unless I want more work)
starting at line 153 is where I take the address of wrap. A perfect forwarding function template would be a pain
 
10:03 AM
@BarrettAdair you might want to look up the indices trick since you seem interested in compile-time 'loops'
 
I was going to assume Barret knows the indices trick
 
alright then
 
interesting
 
I may be wrong!
 
Why are you using a lookup table?
 
10:06 AM
I'm going to go ahead and posit that long S in France declined around 1650.
 
That's some 150 years before England.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes shouldn’t you be comparing against neusiesme then?
 
@LucDanton No, because the word is "neufiesme"
Though, damn, good point.
 
10:09 AM
@LucDanton Can you elaborate? I know all the std::index_sequence stuff, but I'm not sure how I would apply it to the string thing.
 
I actually googled 'neusiesme' to make sure it was a real word and since there were hits I assumed it was. That tells us something about OCR now, doesn’t it?
(modern spelling is neuvième)
 
It appears it was the decline of that spelling, not the long S.
 
Oh, the bit twiddling stuff - yeah
 
And it went straight from "neufiesme" to "neuvième".
 
10:10 AM
Actually, still not sure how it would apply
 
@BarrettAdair how do you have two templates next to each other
 
I was really expecting an intermediate "neufième".
 
template<typename Char>
    template<typename T>
 
@BarrettAdair you use a a macro to refactor what’s essentially a loop from 1 to 32
 
@VermillionAzure it's just one of those special situations. I'm not sure what it's called.
 
10:11 AM
I am really confused at this
 
@LucDanton You can tell it's an F because it's ligatured into the I (here books.google.fr/…)
 
I actually didn’t pay attention to the page outside of the various flux de ills lol
 
Long Ss don't form ligatures with Is.
 
what happened around 1650?
 
Spelling reform?
 
10:14 AM
> L'Académie française, institution créée en 1635,
 
Pure word porn
 
welp
 
@BarrettAdair You sure that this is a good idea?
template<typename Str>
    inline constexpr typename Str::underlying_type
        make_char_array(const char* a) {
        std::array<typename Str::char_type, Str::buffer_size> temp{};
        auto size = strlen(a);
        copy(a, a + size, temp.begin());
        temp[size + 1] = Str::nullchr;
        return temp;
    }
 
@LucDanton HAhahahaha BAM
So now what I need to know is whether L'Académie's reform also reached into typography and killed the long S.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes or by the fact that I know how to count to 9
 
10:16 AM
Can someone do a review of that code
 
@LucDanton That's true. I can think of a few ways to improve this, but all of them either involve additional template instantiations, or an impossibly large stack frame. Unrolling it with if doesn't have those issues. Thoughts?
 
@LucDanton Don't bite the hand that gave you "flux de bouche" in a book from 1664
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yeah cos I would have thought liure instead of livre is a deliberate typographer’s affectation, not a matter of spelling
 
Need a word that didn't change spelling and has an S.
 
@VermillionAzure it's vulnerable to buffer overflows :
 
10:17 AM
@VermillionAzure Does it compile (I reckon it might only if the argument is already a literal)
 
@sehe Yes.
 
But I don't understand why he does a few things
 
Hmmm.
This is in line with when the English dropped it (books.google.com/ngrams/…)
 
@Might have some UB in there (see comment at the top of the page)
It walks a very fine line
 
10:18 AM
9 mins ago, by Luc Danton
I actually googled 'neusiesme' to make sure it was a real word and since there were hits I assumed it was. That tells us something about OCR now, doesn’t it?
@R.MartinhoFernandes I’m sceptical right now because of that
 
@BarrettAdair It looks so... complicated
Why did you do a lot of the things you did?
 
@LucDanton Could be the result of a different OCR engine that accounts for the long S and then falls into the fi ligature trap.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Note how sunk sunk too.
 
@Morwenn End of the Age of Sail.
 
Or safer boats.
 
10:21 AM
Yeah, those two are related, I think.
 
@BarrettAdair I tend not to worry about such things as long as they are not backed by numbers. Which is not to say I’m not careful either, but the care I take is to factor things out and rely on known behaviours, which is where I put indices. Cheap building indices is one of those things I assume and take for granted.
 
That's C++ metaprogramming for ya. I'm definitely an amateur, though.

1. I want the strings to work for any integral type
2. I want them to leverage constexpr when possible
3. I want a seamless transition from constexpr to dynamic/resizable. This requires covariance, hence the type erasure
4. I want them to be immutable
5. I want covariance
@VermillionAzure
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Apparently yes: books.google.com/ngrams/…
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes True scientific fact checking is more tedious than configuring and maintaining a build server!
 
10:22 AM
@LucDanton good advice - premature optimization is bad. Basically, I was lazy and didn't want to think recursively at the time. Thanks!
 
@Morwenn It used to be "Strvnk And White", but they dropped that spelling with the PDF publication
 
@VermillionAzure I said "covariance" twice. Oops
 
The Battle of Lepanto (1571) was the last military engagement with oar-propelled vessels; from then on sails dominated.
 
Give it a few more years and the rabbit-fox system will be stable.
 
No wait,
Oar-propelled vessels also sink.
Nevermind.
That's an artifact of the corpus temporal distribution.
 
10:24 AM
@BarrettAdair the naive, recursive approach is typically linear whereas the whole point of indices complexity-wise is to reduce that to logarithmic though
 
That makes sense. Yes, that section of code could defintely be O(log N) at compile time.
@LucDanton
 
Good point. I'll refactor it eventually.
 
covariance, contravariance ugh
 
With covariance, you can transition from compile-time strings to dynamic strings without hardly noticing.
 
@BarrettAdair and which types are those
 
@LucDanton Yeah, I'm pretty convinced they kept the long S until ~1800 like the British.
 
somehow you're placing compile-time strings as a subtype of all strings? confused
 
when l’Académie typographique entered in full force
 
I'm thinking it was a global phenomenon.
Maybe German kept it longer.
What with Fraktur and shit.
Fraktur was only abolished by Hitler.
 
10:29 AM
rip spicy ess
 
One of his best ideas.
 
we’ll quote you on that
 
Other way around. The dynamic string is type erased, and holds a shared_ptr<void> to the std::array-based string. It sucks up the array-based string's member functions into its own "vtable" on construction and resize/reassignment. Pretty crazy (Note: I haven't focused on the constexpr-ness of the strings, but it's around the corner.)
@VermillionAzure
 
@BarrettAdair So you're reusing std::array member functions
 
10:31 AM
I should really learn Haskell
 
Nope. Starting at line 232 is the std::array-based string.
 
Ugh.
C++ should've had a better generics system with concepts from the beginning and axioms would've been nice
 
Does this mean that Fraktur is more amenable to OCR?
 
> Hitler was wrong after all —rmf
5
 
10:32 AM
Starting at line 36 is the dynamic one, which feeds off of the std::array-based ones, cycling through their function pointers depending on whichever one is held by the smart_ptr<void>
@VermillionAzure
 
@LucDanton Do you think it's not? I'm curious what you rate a better idea :)
 
@BarrettAdair no idea what you mean by cycling through them
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Your footnote about different OCR engine (configs) comes to the forefront there
 
Imagine a .append() method. if the result of the append is too large for the currently held type, it will "resize", which means it drops its currently held type and gets a different one. Of course, that's done immutably, so it would end up in a new instance. Maybe it will make more sense after there is more implementation.
 
@BarrettAdair I know how resize works
But that seems really similar to how the current thing works maybe...
 
10:36 AM
It's a type-based resize, though. So it has to flush its vtable
 
Spanish seems to have dropped it around 1775 books.google.com/ngrams/…
 
Do you need a vtable in the first place?
 
the dynamic string is assignable, but not mutable
 
I'm spending way too much time investigating this.
 
I do for covariance and polymorphism. I could do plain old inheritance-based polymorphism, but then I'd lose covariance
 
10:37 AM
@BarrettAdair And you see that doesn't make sense to me because assigning implies editing
 
@LucDanton What dya expect from rmf (either "rude mf" or just the proper spelling of "richard matthew ſtallman"
 
Or maybe I wouldn't. Idk. I just wanted to do type erasure because it's better, although more complicated
 
Italian, too books.google.com/ngrams/…; Google Books doesn't have a corpus of any other language using the Latin alphabet.
 
@BarrettAdair I've been looking for type erasure as well
 
@sehe putting the jokes aside for a minute, I thought there were some choice quotes of Hitler on Fraktur but it turns out he left that job to a minion
 
10:38 AM
German is the odd one out where the long S "artifact" doesn't show up.
 
nwp
@BarrettAdair type erasure is cool, but has significant cost. I would avoid it if possible.
 
@sehe lol
 
@LucDanton delegation
 
@nwp What do you mean has significant cost?
@BarrettAdair Isn't there a way to make the function pointers const?
 
@nwp The only costs (as opposed to inheritance polymorphism) are complexity
 
nwp
10:39 AM
type erasure means you don't know the type. If you don't know the type operations are expensive.
 
Ven
wat
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes yes, but now for your next Gothic–Latin debate you have an ironclad argument, don’t you? doesn’t that make it worth it?
 
Ven
are you arguing for specialization?
 
@nwp But he does. He's using it because he wants different inheritance behavior and he forwards arguments with templates
 
@nwp more expensive. And don't count out devirtualization
 
10:39 AM
@nwp If it's self-contained library code it's not too bad
 
@sehe I would tbh
 
@BarrettAdair If I'm not mistaken, the compiler should be able to optimize out at least the member function vtable and then the type erasure shouldn't be so bad?
 
yeah. Don't totally count it out:)
 
Actually, still have one last thing to try out.
 
@VermillionAzure s/should/could/ s/could/might/
@R.MartinhoFernandes work?
 
10:41 AM
@sehe If he makes the function pointers const, perhaps yes?
 
nwp
@BarrettAdair especially in library code I would consider that bad. Optimizations in libraries are not premature.
 
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat books.google.com/ngrams/…
 
@sehe with vtable-based type erasure, the compiler has lots of opportunities for "devirtualization", as it were. Yes?
Since the member function pointers in the vtable are known at compile time
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes covered by NFC or collation or some such? hover over the line(s)
 
I'm guessing it's a feature of the interface.
 
10:42 AM
@BarrettAdair Maybe you should make the function pointers const
 
@LucDanton Some search normalization thing, yeah.
Happens with all languages.
 
@BarrettAdair it's all depends on the call site after inlining. If you control that, you could get lucky with your choice of compiler
 
@VermillionAzure I want them to be reassignable, so I don't want them to be const.
 
@BarrettAdair But why reassignable?
 
@sehe Ok, thanks. SSA FTW
 
10:43 AM
@LucDanton (This would be NFKC, though)
 
The template wrapper class should only ever accomidate one type, right?
 
@BarrettAdair He's aware of that. Cinch¹ just loses the big picture every other message
(¹aka VermillionAzure)
 
So you can't find typographical uses of the long S except by inference from the OCR artifact.
 
@sehe Rather, more like I can't understand the thick syntax because I don't spend enough time with C++ and templates and compile-time programming
 
@VermillionAzure The template wrapper class should only ever accomidate one type, right?

Maybe in your version, but not in mine :)
 
10:44 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Non-Fried Kentucky Chicken
 
Also, first time I'm hearing about contravariance and covariance
 
Ok, I'm done now.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes ENOMEM, not that I’m ungrateful of you to point it out
 
@BarrettAdair I mean an instantiation, sorry...
 
@VermillionAzure You should keep the goal in mind. That has nothing to do with grokking the code
 
10:45 AM
@sehe I've never encountered a compile time vtable and I'm not very familiar with the perfect forwarding and function calling syntax and such
Like I said, and the theoretical concepts, I'm not so good on
 
@VermillionAzure You're not here often enough. Daknok raves about it every 3.1 months. And I'd swear I recall you mentioning it in a tutorial
 
@LucDanton Yeah, the fact that the chart legend just displays "s" instead of "ſ" would indicate that the interface preprocesses the search string.
 
@sehe I did not.
I never really did anything with polymorphism. I don't play around with inheritance or the theory around that so much
ugh
 
nwp
@VermillionAzure lucky you
 
@VermillionAzure You'll get it, just keep reading StackOverflow. Polymorphism is wayyyy more important than templates and metaprogramming. Get that down first
 
10:47 AM
@BarrettAdair I know that but I just need to read a bit more stuff and play around with it
 
@Sure! That's a great way to learn
 
@nwp Don't worry, things get a lot worse without classes...
 
@BarrettAdair lel
 
Having to write a web app without static typing and no classes suck.
 
Ven
@Griwes sssh, don't tell him
 
nwp
10:48 AM
I avoid inheritance whenever possible. Unnecessarily hard to reason about, poor performance, highly coupled code. Not good.
 
@nwp Agreed.
 
It's lel because that statement is demonstrably wrong, but it's also lel because lol, templates are generally used to implement... wait for it... polymorphism!
 
BTW, in case anyone is interested, I ripped the constexpr checks out of my library and put them in a standalone header
 
Ven
@nwp preaching to a choir
 
10:49 AM
It's fresh out of my other code so I haven't fully cleaned it up or documented it yet, but it works
 
I really should code more
 
@Griwes by "polymorphism" I mean inheritance polymorphism. I realize that templates offer parametric polymorphism etc, but from a practical point of view I don't think it's a stretch to say that virtual functions are more useful than template metaprogramming. And I say this as someone who loves templates.
@nwp I also avoid inheritance at all costs
 
You "love" TMP the way people "love" science :P
You like looking at its butt as it walks by :P
(Otherwise you wouldn't be saying that :P)
Inheritance polymorphism is only useful because we don't have concept polymorphism (or call it typeclass polymorphism, or whatever really).
 
@Griwes Bingo
 
> Imagine Bjarne with green hair. Krusty!
 
10:54 AM
Meanwhile Rust
 
I don't remember when was the last time where I used inheritance where I didn't really mean "I actually need concept polymorphism, but that's too troublesome in C++".
 
Fucking shit C++ can have a freaking trait system, easy
 
user3790646
@Griwes I'm still processing this
 
If only
@AndreyErick What are you, Ruby?
 
10:55 AM
I believe that if dynamic concepts make it into the standard, pure abstract base classes will be obsolete. But at least in my experience, industry code is filled with inheritance hierarchies (sadly). "Useful" in the sense of "you have to deal with this in real world codebases".
 
@BarrettAdair That's not what "useful" means.
 
user3790646
@VermillionAzure Actually, no no.
 
Ven
@Griwes or "our codebase has inheritances"
 
user3790646
@VermillionAzure English grammar is just a bit too hard on me ._.'
 
10:56 AM
@Ven I don't really work on existing codebases, so...
 
Hmmm.... TBH you could probably get away with empty abstract base classes and have it act as "concepts"
 
@Dmitri viens là mon loulou
 
Later!
 
(At least not in the "writing code for one" sense.)
 
@BarrettAdair Good night
 
user3790646
10:59 AM
2 days ago I dreamed I broke up with my gf, yesterday it came true o.o'
 
try to dream of sandwiches
 
user3790646
@LucDanton It's hard T_T
 
Ven
@LucDanton samantha's voice "Seven dayyyys"
 
@Ven je connais pas de Samantha, désolé
 
At the end the graph, we can see rightfold acknowledging the existence of the language.
 
user3790646
@Morwenn Hey :)
 
Ven
@Morwenn put in "2016", and it shows how sea plu plu is ded
 
user3790646
@Ven lel
 
"cpp" is a terrible phrase to use to search for C++ though.
 
user3790646
@Griwes It doesn't like arithmetic operators o.o
 
user3790646
11:16 AM
 
user3790646
Wow.
 
> Things falling and rising has nothing to do with gravity, but weight. heliocentrists need gravity to explain the balls in space.
since everthing can become a conspiracy, so’s gravity
 
user3790646
@LucDanton You know, reddit's not a good place to search for conspirancies, I recommend you try 4chan (?)
 
@LucDanton I have a lot of troubles with troll detection in the flat earthers discussions.
 
11:34 AM
I made a custom container an std:.sort does a segfault, even though the used comparator is strict. so hard to debug ;_;
 
Ven
@NaCl if only we had gdb, lldb, sanitizers
 
@Ven Guess what I'm doing for five days morning to evening
 
we can’t say that in polite company
 
Ven
@NaCl fapping?
 
11:44 AM
thankfully we are in the lounge
 
@Ven ...while debugging
 
Ven
ah, that makes sense
I could agree, valgrind is slow
 
It's useless for me, it says nothing until the segfault actually happens
 
Ven
moar brakepoints
 
…yeah
 
Ven
11:57 AM
std::unordered_map::operator[] is not thread-safe, is it?
 
@Ven it’s not
 
Rule of Thumb: if it's in C++ standard library, and it's not marked const, it's not thread-safe
(unless specified otherwise)
 
Ven
@milleniumbug I'd sure love to have some kind of list so I can easily see. It's too error-prone, and I can't go search the standard everytime :/
 

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