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4:00 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes do you mean the letter X or is that a place holder for anything?
 
@Columbo lol, the running gag is that Germans start thinking of finishing their studies at 30.
 
which is the main reason it takes a bit longer than 2 years :p
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Lucky you, with your coke and hookers! Ahh, one day :(
 
@thecoshman I was going with a placeholder but decided to mean the letter X.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yep. For some reason studying is like a style of life there
 
4:01 PM
Wait, I got better: is "9" an example of a letter if someone uses it as an example of a letter?
 
@Columbo you don't have a job yet?
 
Guys, nothing makes sense anymore. Plz send help.
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb I'm a teen.
 
> Go does not support const or volatile qualifiers.
 
Technically.
 
4:02 PM
WTH. What an awful language.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes is Scots an example of a language?
 
lol i see
is litb not a troll anymore if noone accuses him of trolling!?!?111
 
Is there a word that is autological regardless of language? I already regret asking this, because I just refuted in my head the idea that the question even makes sense. It doesn't.
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Wer zuletzt lacht... hat Koks und Nutten.
 
4:03 PM
What's your Master Thesis? :)
 
Weird. They do have const.
I don't understand this document.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes the empty word is an autologism too
@Columbo master thesis is not planned yet
 
@caps An error in a technical document? What has this world come to?
@JohannesSchaub-litb What are you studying?
 
@fredoverflow CS
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb There's no such thing, not for the relevant meaning of "word" (the one in the context of languages).
 
4:06 PM
@JohannesSchaub-litb CSharp? :)
So... Informatik?
 
What are you going to do after graduation?
 
i seek to do the master thesis in the company i'm currently working for, if we find a topic
 
What does the company do?
 
@fredoverflow i'm planning my life when it's due :p
 
4:07 PM
Agile Life? :)
Extreme Living
 
@fredoverflow we're building measurement devices for electrical power, i'm responsible for all sorts of software things.
 
How big is the codebase?
 
lol yeah extreme living
i suppose it's big. but you will forgive me that i can't deliver accurate numbers :p
 
I'm still adjusting to the whole "It's okay not to know every little detail of the entire codebase, don't worry about it" thing...
 
Meh, Go seems like an alright language.
 
4:10 PM
@fredoverflow hi :)
@fredoverflow lol, I got over that years ago
you either get over that or you go insane
 
@caps It sounds like C which would be a step back from C++.
 
except that are abstractions and everything is better
 
@fredoverflow Good. Now you can work towards the real deal, which is "It's probably best that you do not to know every little detail of the entire codebase, trust me".
 
@fredoverflow if the codebase is big
 
Even if it's small
 
4:13 PM
it'll change fast enough to render your prev knowledge obsolete
 
I often see a line of code/a method/a class and wonder "Why is this here, what did the author think, what problem does it solve, does it still need to exist, is there a better way to do it etc." and it's driving me nuts.
 
so it's a race not worth participating in
 
Don't waste time working how shit works if you don't need to know
JIT learning
 
I think I know what about 5% of the codebase at work does
maybe less
 
just in time thinking
jitt (sic)
 
4:14 PM
@AlexM. I think I know about 5% of what the codebase at work doesn't do.
 
@fredoverflow Is it causing issues? do you have reason to believe the fault is in that function? is it returning the 'wrong' data? is it perhaps causing side effects?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes that's a nice position to be in
wait
 
yeah, read carefully
 
yeah I won't parse that speak normally please lol
 
a prof at uni used to say that the average programmer can reasonably manage to write a software around 100000 LOC large. then it gets out of hand
as a single person
 
4:15 PM
monolithic code bases are bad
 
@wilx It's much more strongly typed and appears to have okay multi-thread builtins.
 
They have to be broken down into small modules that be focused on what they do.
 
I would probably pick Go over C.
But C++ over Go, still.
 
It's SRP, just like you would apply it to functions or classes
 
4:17 PM
What do you guys think about Foonathan's Blog "Fixing Output Parameters"? (my comment).
 
out params are bad, m'key
 
@AlexM. The idea is that there is so much going on and you know so little that you are always bound to find out the code does something you didn't think it did.
 
I always get a bit nervy if people start papering over language deficits. Somehow I think hiding the warts under leaky abstractions doesn't really make them go away. Then again, GSL seems like a good idea. I'm torn
 
@sehe The premise is nonsense: "It happens, for example, in functions where you want to return multiple values at once."
 
@sehe I thought it was pretty good.
 
4:19 PM
Return an internal struct, done.
 
@Griwes See my comment
@Griwes I suppose they "can't" for compatibility reasons
 
@sehe your link doesn't link to that comment
 
I'll have it in mind the next time I find a "need" for output parameters. Don't know if that will ever happen.
@thecoshman It does if you have disqus loaded, maybe.
 
@sehe then for compatability reasons, it doesn't matter
 
@sehe Compatibility with what?
 
4:20 PM
@thecoshman Oh, #Disqus :(
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes if by "so much going on" you also include changes over time yeah
 
@Griwes Older C++
 
Also who cares about compatibility.
 
People do
 
std::tuple/boost::tuple then.
 
Ven
4:20 PM
@Ell ycmd is really slow tho :(
 
I don't agree with statements like "you can never understand what a huge codebase does" because really the size is not as important to not understanding
as change over time is
 
wtf
duh, variant
 
@caps ah, extension was hiding
 
small codebase that changes often still leaves you behind
 
@Griwes They can be heinous, but yeah. He mentions those early on
@Griwes lol
 
Ell
4:21 PM
@Ven what do you use?
 
Ven
I use ycmd.
 
i suppose we shall all learn the hexadecimal alphabet for writing words and sentences
 
Ven
Because company-mode-clang by default clang clang++ underneath and that's REALLY slow
 
then we can use literal operator templates or indexing purposes
 
@sehe Dunno, for me it's a solved problem.
 
Ell
4:22 PM
oh
 
and don't need to wait for compile time string literal operator templates
 
I couldn't care less about pre-already-existing implementations.
 
Yeah. Tuples are the thing for me, and c++17 embetters it all
 
Like, even at work we are already at GCC 5 w/ C++11 pretty much everywhere, I think with 14 in some places, GCC 6 is soon to join the party.
 
Hah. I silently switched to c++14 here when I finally backported gcc 5.4 to our dieing LTS release platform
 
4:23 PM
There's some ancient branches that don't have that and sometimes need some fixes, but eh, the code is so different now anyway that I don't care much (and I don't think anyone cares either, including those fixing errors on those ancient branches).
 
there's a nice benefit to working with a huge codebase
 
@sehe hah
 
Though it will be looong until generalized fold expressions and other things that are soo nice
 
your mindset changes and you approach projects more easily and head-on
because everything else looks trivial lol
nothing to be intimidated by anymore
 
@AlexM. But even in projects where you're the sole developer you can run into old code that never changed and ask yourself "who the fuck wrote this?"
9
 
4:25 PM
I think it's the same for everyone, and more a function of experience. Huge codebases don't always correlate with complexity
 
sometimes they correlate with complications haha
def agree with what you say tho
 
So even though you wrote all the code, you still don't have a complete grasp of the whole thing. It's a limitation of human cognitive abilities.
 
spotted this with the senior devs here
 
if you split it into modules, it becomes managable
but without clear and simple interfaces, it becomes a nightmare
 
Your brain evolved to run away from lions in the savannah, not to develop complex computational systems.
 
4:27 PM
we're a team of ppl with mostly 3 or 4 years of experience
 
therefore, overengineering an interface can be a cause of death in the long run
 
I feel like I should get a special purpose keyboard with just a few keys for things like debugging... because I tend to have two problems. Firstly I tend to forget what the binding is, but more worryingly, I tend to smash the fuck out those few keys :S
 
a guy who came from Amazon (and worked in other places) w/ 15 years under his belt
just blew us all out of the water in a week or two of getting comfortable with the project
guy is able to navigate the codebase and spot patterns like crazy
even though it's all new to him
by patterns I mean things he saw before
and what programmers tend always do
 
maybe he trained in westworld
 
Basically what I mean is: cartoon robots > humans.
:P
 
4:31 PM
@AlexM. I guess at least that's better than a team of ferrets (or koalas) with 3 or 4 years of experience, anyway.
 
/cc @French ppl
 
le shit le chite
 
i have an idea how you can apply the "auto f() { local struct; return object; }" approach but still have the definition in the .cpp file
 
4:47 PM
@Borgleader OMG this is hilarious.
> un Sith à remplir
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb auto f(); seems kinda opaque
what should the caller even expect?
 
but it needs some improvement before i can show it
 
Xeo
@JohannesSchaub-litb Doesn't the caller need the size of the result type? How'd that work if it was defined in another translation unit only?
 
std::numeric_limits<std::size_t>::max()
which works for all objects
 
Xeo
wait, which definition are we talking about? For the local struct or the function?
 
5:00 PM
@JohannesSchaub-litb the idea needs improvement?
 
@Xeo the function's logic
@Xeo currently i got this
struct Color {  }; auto f() { struct _ : tuple<double, Color> { using tuple::tuple; double pos = get<0>(*this); Color color = get<1>(*this); } c = [&] { _::tuple fImpl(void); return fImpl(); }(); return c; }
the drawback is that it doubles the memory needs.. because the data is once in the tuple and once in the field
but the implementation of "f" can be separated out into the .cpp file as "fImpl"
and users can still do tuple<double,Color> t = f();, so it's kindof backwards compatible with the tuple usage
 
5:29 PM
@Borgleader That one was great :D
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Why not references?
 
@caps when they are copied, the reference is copied too and points to the old data
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb Ah, of course.
 
@caps altho if you make the local class noncopyable and non-movable (perhaps by not inheriting tuple but inheriting an intermediate class which itself inherits tuple, and then wait for c++17 to get guaranteed copy elision, it may work without by copied_ref
 
5:45 PM
@sehe Wanna listen to something original? :)
/cc @orlp
 
auto f() { int f(); return 0.; }
valid or not? clang says not. gcc accepts
 
And I was wondering what I was doing my life.
> When senpai has finally noticed you.
 
@Morwenn sounds very psyie
psy-trance-y
 
what's with the romanian names
 
6:00 PM
I don't feel that it sounds really psytrancy. Sure the beginning somehow reminds me of Shpongle, but most of the record doesn't feel like psytrance.
 
it sounds good
 
Balkan + clarinet + a bit of electro was a bit unexpected, but it does sound good :)
 
this is good music but a bit silent if you ask me
by silent I mean without an oomph
 
wat
 
I don't know
 
6:22 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes I'm glad you liked it /cc @Morwenn
 
@Borgleader Actually I already shared it one or two days ago on Facebook ^^'
 
6:40 PM
@Morwenn T_T
 
Sorry :p
 
Ven
6:58 PM
@Borgleader this is hilarious
i'm crying
 
7:10 PM
hm, everything in my fridge is expired
 
Maybe you fridge is expired.
 
user1804599
@Ven check out this shitstorm twitter.com/jdegoes/status/791689640981827584
 
user1804599
(The reply thread)
 
@JohannesSchaub-litb I think it's invalid.
Because you can't overload on return type.
 
> 50% faster than a MacBook Air 13”.
Surface Pro 4 is engineered to give you the power and performance you need in a laptop, with Intel® Core™ processors and up to 1TB of lightning fast SSD for all your programs, photos, and music.
this isn't the time microsoft does this loool why do they do it
it looks so bad to me
> Compare to Mac.
It’s easy to switch from Mac to Surface. Your new Surface will work well with iTunes, iCloud, and iPhone. And many of the gestures, shortcuts, and features are similar to what you already know.
they seem to really cater to switchers
 
Ven
7:22 PM
@rightfold meh
 
it's so weird because this is not a page dedicated to switching from mac
it's their main product page
like, you don't use macs so you end up here
and see this
 
heh, while also trying to be like mac
 
I was thinking about saying
"jesus not even chinese iphones make claims like this"
but in microsoft's defense
their products are different
the functionality and design is legitimately different
 
user1804599
@Ven get a less Ell-like avatar PL0x
 
but calling out the macs like that makes microsoft look desperate imo
 
7:32 PM
yep
 
@AlexM. But they are desperate. :)
 
Aren't we all?
 
@Borgleader
Try changing line #6 to var answer = "NO CODE PROVIDED IN QUESTION"Justinas 9 hours ago
 
> i'm creating Online test series portal !!!
he was too excited and forgot
 
Ell
@StackedCrooked IRTA "hi, my fridge exploded"
 
7:40 PM
Huh, I'm still not used to slightly hurting myself by accidentally pressing my chest u___u
 
when can you start fondling it
 
Not sure. Maybe I'll remain forever an A cup :p
 
do an implant and fondle it obv thats the right choice
 
Ell
You can have my chest (please)
 
@AlexM. I'd much rather remain an A cup.
 
7:42 PM
o ok
 
finally updated my rotten so avatar
 
7:56 PM
@Mysticial nice
 
Time to eat something I guess. I'm not motivated but if I don't eat I'll end up dying .____.
Being hungry is boring.
 
8:33 PM
@Morwenn you had something earlier. I'm just back from rehearsals (Haydn's Nelson Mass and Fauré Requiem; the latter is a joy to play. The former mostly a joy to hear. Not play :))
Also. I wrecked my work Ubuntu install. No clue what actually went wrong, but *clearly* the wrong directory(s) got deleted when using k4dirstat
Reading through the change log of k4dirstat isn't reassuring:
> - Do not delete the whole parent directory when deleting a file
containing a $ in its name.
Wokay
 
8:47 PM
@Morwenn pretty good
 
Aaargh Fucking hell. There was a bind mount still :( :(
 
don't like the french lyrics though
 
I had made arrangements to properly unmount them all and the commands didn't fail.
So I trusted my change root didn't have bind mounts.
k4dirstat is smart enough not to traverse mount points BUT it doesn't detect bind mounts because they report the same device id.
RIP.
I fear I lost a bit of work.
> find: File system loop detected; ‘./WORK/precise/home/sehe’ is part of the same file system loop as ‘.’.
This. Is likely what must have gone wrong. Because all of my home folder is clean and empty
DAMMIT.
Oh. I just realized the shell scripts I lost. They might be ~the worst
 
That sucks.
 
Yup.
 
8:55 PM
@sehe What do you mean I had something earlier?
 
Current status: booting Live USB to see what extundelete can
@Morwenn I missed a plink tonight
I swiped it away because I was in rehearsal
Ah that was the link
 
@sehe Indeed :)
 
The link doesn't show in the android notification
Hence I didn't see that
 
Oh
 
8:57 PM
Is it about the whole CD?
 
Well, yeah. You can skip through though.
 
I don't usually do that
Skipping through misses all the build up and surprises
 
I wouldn't say there's a strong build up to the album. It flows nicely but still sounds like a collection of different tracks.
 
I mean build inside the track
It's weird to tag it as acoustic though :/
 
Oh.
 
9:01 PM
These days, it's apparently "acoustic" if there is at least one non-vocalist with relatively unaltered sound :)
Starting inflorescence
 
Not sure how ones qualifies electronic music as acoustic, but...
 
@StackedCrooked speaking of new anime "Yuri!!! on ICE" is the most misleading title I've saw yet - there are no lesbians, and there's no Visual Studio
 
hehe
Are you watching it?
 
@milleniumbug But is there a Russian guy lost in space?
 
@StackedCrooked nah, just waited for a proper occasion to make a joke on it
 
9:04 PM
@milleniumbug you did well :D
I've only started watching this one anime this season.
Even though I love anime, for some reason I find it hard every time to start watching a new series.
It's like having to inject your favorite drug with an unfamiliar needle.
.. or something
I suppose.
 
I starting watching Gate: jieitai kanochi nite, kaku tatakaeri like two weeks ago.
 
I'm having the same problem lately
 
@Morwenn I love that series.
 
sure it's simpler to watch something you already know, but it gets boring
 
@Morwenn who is the clarinettist (I'm assuming you're involved, maybe I'm assuming wrong)
 
9:07 PM
@StackedCrooked It's pretty good. There some random ecchi from time to time, but fortunately not too much.
@sehe I learnt after sharing the link that I was somewhat involved since this project is by a guy who plays the bombarde on our album.
 
I like the mix of realism and fantasy.
 
watching series from a new season is twice the dose of risk
 
Also how the modern army is so different from the medieval times.
 
@Morwenn Ah :) Nice. I didn't hear about you being in Brussels either :)
 
@StackedCrooked The scenario is golden. That mix of modern & fantasy world with common geopolitical concerns is really fresh.
 
9:09 PM
so often I watch series which are 2 year old because that's how long it takes for me to catch up
 
@sehe I didn't know the guy was from Brussels either. On the other hand, I've never seen him, and I don't even know whether it's a solo project.
 
So far I can't say I really like it, but the craftsmanship is good. The timings are excellent. I don't particularly like how dominant the basses are
@R.MartinhoFernandes And here I was, assuming that you meant you were trapped in the paradox
 
@sehe I wouldn't listen to it everyday, but some things sounded quite new to me. And the production is great.
 
user1593881
Sup? Can someone take a look at this question: stackoverflow.com/questions/40294063/…
 
user1593881
Is it UB or logical constness or here be dragons?
 
9:18 PM
@Morwenn Agree on the production. I love the trumpet on track #4 - especially how it sits on the modality
 
@RawN It's bullshit.
Guy gets a pointer to its own member.
 
user1593881
Or that...
 
Of course it's valid. A static analyzer could probably notice the issue buy as it stands it's all valid.
 
@AlexM. Exactly what Apple's been doing for at least a decade now (except that in Microsoft's case, it bears at least a passing resemblance to the truth).
 
nwp
@RawN UB, also a duplicate, but I'm too lazy to find it
 
user1593881
9:20 PM
Thanks guys.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Not if it's constexpr though. The entire object might be in readonly memory
 
@sehe Indeed.
In any case.
It's UB.
But I guess you can do that to circumvent the type system without const cast.
 
@sehe does read only memory exist?
I mean, I use that argument all the time, but now i am wondering...
 
Current status: extundelete --restore-all --after $(date +'%s' -d "now - 3 days") --before $(date +'%s' -d "now - 10 hours") /dev/mapper/ubuntu--vg-root
Wish me luck
 
@sehe see you 3 days ago, or 10 hours ago
 
9:25 PM
@gnzlbg yes. Kernels will barf you very solidly if you touch the "no touchy" parts of memory
@gnzlbg heheh
 
@sehe yeah, but can you touch it to read but not to write? i've never ran into those touchy parts of a kernel
 
@sehe Ok, I misread ealier: the guy who played bombarde for our album also played bombarde for one of the tracks of this album (the 10th one).
 
I'm doing it remotely to a live-usb because the disk is a laptop SSD
@Morwenn currently back at #6
@gnzlbg sure. All of the code segment is usually readonly, e.g. And there's static data segments (e.g. that holds the string constants)
 
@sehe but you can mutate static variables
which are in the static data segment
 
@gnzlbg Unless they're const, POD or trivially constexpr constructible and the compiler elected to put them right in the data segment (i.e. baked right into the module image, which is mmapped readonly, so it can be shared with all processes that load the same module)
@gnzlbg Those are usually NOT in the data segment. C++ loaders emit .init routines to construct them and the initializers may be in the data segment
 
9:31 PM
@sehe indeed: ideone.com/V62q9x
 
user1593881
@JerryCoffin Below your answer there is a comment about that m_val integer field. I am also curious to understand why that is allowed to change.
 
@RawN I thought I explained that. You have two separate pointers to your data. One is this. In a const member function, you can't modify things via this. You, however, have created a second (non-const) pointer to the same data. Since it's a non-const pointer, you're allowed to write through it. The existence of this that won't allow a write doesn't affect the other pointer that does allow a write.
 
user1593881
@JerryCoffin Now it's clear.
 
It's a little like a communal mailbox with two locks, one for you, the other for the mailman. The mailman has one key. He opens everybody's boxes to deliver mail. Individuals each have their own keys to retrieve the mail. If I break off a key in "my" keyhole, the mailman can still open the box and deliver the mail using his key in the other lock.
 
user1593881
9:53 PM
All clear now. I wonder if that Jarod42 60+K guy was aware of it.
 
His screen name identifies him better than a rough estimate of his momentary rep in virtual internet points.
 
@RawN Yes, almost certainly (for a non-lounger, he's pretty sharp).
 
I think he's been over
Not a regular, of course
 
@sehe Beat me to it.
 
Who's never been over here even for the sake of it anyway? :p
Looks like the « Lounge<C++> is a disgrace to the StackExchange network, let's burn it to the ground and ban all the regulars! » people have calmed down though.
 
9:58 PM
@sehe A quick search doesn't turn up any posts (none that include "a", "an" or "the", anyway).
 
@JerryCoffin the particles are excluded from the index
 
@sehe Ah, makes sense I s'pose.
 

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