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4:03 PM
Stupid yacc parser and it's dumb shift-reduce conflicts for if () {} else if () {} else {}
 
@ThePhD That's classic, isn't it?
 
It is classic, but it's making my group want to end my if statements with fi.
And I'll be damned if I have to drink the Bash Koolaid.
 
Ven
it's normal.
it's not an issue tho
you can parse "else if" as "else { if ... }"
 
nwp
@ThePhD sounds like your plan to make yourself as despicable as possible in order to not have to work with others has failed
 
@RawN At least there is backup.
 
4:06 PM
@Ven I'll just modify the parser and grammar and add it myself, rather than debate it.
 
@rightfold Holy mother. How much shit do you have to install to make React work?
And watchers too
 
Ven
so much of the shit
 
@Shoe What? I remember it being fairly easy to use... But I have done like a single page, so I could be wrong. :)
 
First you have to install babel for some reason (probably compile the latest ES6 stuff). Then you need some other library to compile the HTML syntax thingy in JS to actual JS. Then you need watchers to watch for changes and recompile all this shit.
 
oh yeah, speaking of beer, I've actually stopped drinking :O Not drunk booze for about three weeks now
 
Ven
4:16 PM
@Shoe yawn.
use webpack :D
 
Yeah, webpack is the watcher I'm talking about
 
@Shoe You can just not use it and recompile yourself?
 
Why would I want to recompile myself?
Why do I even need to compile anything
It's fucking JS FFS
 
@Shoe Except it is not? :)
 
Yeah, that's the issue
With Angular you have pure JS. You just include the angular files and you are done.
Why can't it be this simple with React?
 
Ven
4:19 PM
WTF Perl 5? if I write use Foo qw(read_file); package X; read_file it looks for X::read_file??!!!?!!??!?!
why is ordering so important :(
 
@Ven Because when you say package X you have changed the scope you are working in.
The read_file is (should be, IIRC) accessible by main::read_file.
 
user1804599
4:42 PM
@Shoe angular LOL XD
 
user1804599
@Shoe Manually writing JS is insane.
 
@rightfold React's JS and ES6 JS are basically the same thing
 
user1804599
Both are insane
 
Ven
LiveScript is best. If only it had types!
 
user1804599
LiveScript is syntactic vinegar
 
user1804599
4:48 PM
Use PureScript.
 
Ven
would be okay with types
 
user1804599
With sufficently advanced types, yes, and referential transparency.
 
Ven
@rightfold I just wanted to parse the type without doing anything to 'em
 
user1804599
write an LS backend for PS
 
Ven
lolno
 
user1804599
4:56 PM
XD
 
Ven
that'd be soooo retarded
 
user1804599
@Shoe react, react-dom, purescript-pux
 
nwp
5:18 PM
Bad code with weird external dependencies crashes when I do exit(0);. Thankfully windows saves me from having to find and fix the bug by providing ExitProcess(0);.
The day has been saved, kittens have been slaughtered and I can go home.
 
user1804599
WTF YOUTUBE 260% CPU
 
@rightfold Are you watching 4k content?
 
user1804599
Yes, but it's 260% even at 420p.
 
I wish it was 4% less.
 
user1804599
:(
 
user1804599
5:23 PM
I don't like nice round numbers.
 
@rightfold So you would prefer 259
 
user1804599
I like 253.
 
If you like 253 so much, why don't you put a ring on it?
 
user1804599
Like 0xfå? But that's 250. :(
 
nwp
Technically one can put a ring on 253.
 
user1804599
5:26 PM
(Z, 0, +, 1, •)
 
user1804599
Ridiculous.
 
Neat:
enum class truth : bool
{
    f = false,
    t = true
};
I was wondering about this for tight packing.
But I suppose you could do it with std::int8_t instead of bool
 
user1804599
@Ven are you aware of a library that takes the horrendous moronic event-based stream API and turns it into an API that uses continuations instead?
 
@rightfold event-based stream API? Like rapidjson?
 
user1804599
5:42 PM
actually PS coroutines should be easy
 
6:05 PM
.-.
Overleaf is a piece of shit.
Can't use certain extensions, maximum of 60 files...
This is horse shit.
 
Ell
What is it?
 
Online LaTeX collab whatever.
For realtime editing for latex docs.
Like google docs but for shitty latex things.
 
realtime editing of latex docs is pair programming
try and google for "remote pair programming tools" maybe you'll find sth
coop coding and synonyms apply obv
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you feel pedant, comment would be appreciated.
 
6:14 PM
-15
Q: Why was my answer deleted with the reason "Don't post identical answers to multiple questions"?

A.AlqadomiTwo questions were asked in the past, both of them wanted to detect user touch on the Google map: How to handle touch event on google map (MapFragment)? Google Maps Android API v2 - detect touch on map To achieve this in the past, we needed to so much workaround, but since last August the goo...

OP: Why was my answer deleted with the reason “Don't post identical answers to multiple questions”?
Answer: Because you posted identical answers to multiple questions?
^^ /cc @Borgleader
 
Ven
@rightfold like .on('lol',...)?
@nwp as the saying goes: "if you're feeling frisky about it, only give her a Semiring"
 
Ell
@ThePhD I use ShareLaTeX
Also what file extension are you using? :v
 
@Borgleader And some popcorn: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/286217/…
And also:
There's no penis in that picture. You can clearly see in a larger version of the same image that it isn't. — Cai 2 days ago
2
 
Ven
@Mysticial that's gold
 
user1804599
@Ven yeah
 
user1804599
6:26 PM
but I just decided PS coroutines are fine
 
user1804599
they do the job well
 
user1804599
they handle all the waiting
 
Ven
Ok.
 
nwp
7:00 PM
another handmade hero victim streaming on twitch
it breaks my heart seeing so much talent go down the drain
 
user406009
Lol at the name of stream.
 
user406009
> [C/C++] Fixing the ....
 
@Mysticial rofl what
 
nwp
I want to safe the guy, but nothing I can say would matter, so I guess I'll just leave and pretend it is not a problem.
 
Uh, I've got strange -Wterminate warnings even though it looks like nothing I use ends up being noexcept(false) :/
Ugh, Travis sucks again.
 
7:22 PM
@Morwenn No, you do
 
Not today.
 
@Morwenn Link or stop complaining
 
@набиячлэвэли Why link? It just spawns random apt-get failures. I can still restart the jobs until it works .____.
I was i the process of moving many things around instead of copying them, but I guess that I'll start using libc++'s std::add_lvalue_reference_t trick to turn some moves into no-ops.
My still-non-existent breasts somewhat hurt when I touch them.
 
7:49 PM
It works, my poplar_sort on one million elements went down from 18006101 copies of the comparison function to 2 copies and 2 moves :o
 
Xeo
7:59 PM
@Morwenn what trick?
@Morwenn Evil doctors, forcing you to stop touching yourself.
 
@Xeo Explicitly pass the Compare template parameter as an lvalue to avoid reference decay.
 
Xeo
on std algos?
 
In their implementations.
 
Xeo
'fraid I'm missing some context
 
The compare parameter is copied once when passed to the algorithm, then they explicitly pass it by lvalue to implementation functions.
 
Xeo
8:04 PM
Ah okay.
Could've just templated the internal functions as Comp&&, no?
Also, if the user wants to avoid copies, they can use std::ref(comp)
 
Probably. But it also allows them to reuse other std:: algorithms without having to copy the thing.
 
> You don't hate mondays. You hate capitalism.
 
Xeo
@Morwenn Eh, for normal algos, the template param order gets in the way
Unless they also pass the iterator types along
 
@Xeo Is the order mandatory by the standard?
 
Xeo
I assume so, since the user is allowed to specify them, IIRC.
But I think all stdlibs just forward the user-facing algos to internal ones
and they can just suit those to their needs.
see the __inplace_merge
 
8:09 PM
@Xeo Pretty much. It also makes things impossible to debug when the segfault is 14.7 function calls below user code.
 
@Xeo It might change though, see this additional proposal from the Ranges TS:
> The number and order of template parameters for algorithm declarations is unspecified, except where explicitly stated otherwise.
 
Xeo
well, that's ranges
or is that retroactive for normal algos too?
 
I guess that it's meant to be retroactive? That's probably a matter of consistency vs. backwards compatibility.
Well' know after Issaquah :p
 
Xeo
 
Lounge<Meeting C++>
Meh, it looks like there is no new full-retard proposal in the latest mailing :/
 
8:18 PM
@Xeo Makes no sense. Tracks are for racing. A lounge is for relaxing.
 
@Morwenn first visible side effect of hormones?
 
Oh, a proposal for a constexpr bit_cast<> :o
 
A "track lounge", to relax (and drink) while watching races would make considerably more sense (but those are already fairly common).
 
@milleniumbug The first was probably how it killed my libido in < 2 weeks.
Time to make some garlic-flavoured pasta :D
 
8:33 PM
@Morwenn Garlic flavored pasta is redundant (or should be, anyway).
 
Xeo
@JerryCoffin Unless you're lounging on a train track, then we may be back to the trolley problem.
 
Balalaika (or whatever it's called) lesson in Russian school in Germany, 193x
good ol' times
 
@Xeo Lounging on a train track? And here I thought it was only meta that thought we were criminals and miscreants.
 
hey everybody
 
user1593881
@Thijser Sup?
 
8:42 PM
Looking for someone who knows what the hell __GI___pthread_mutex_lock means as a nerror
It might be a problem in ubuntu so I posted my question there but I think someone here might also know
 
@Thijser What a horrible person, making all us nobody's feel left out.
 
user1593881
@Abyx Interesting instrument. Will not win any beauty contest though.
 
0
Q: __GI___pthread_mutex_lock error in opencv/caffe

ThijserHaving resolved the problem in my previous question I installed caffe following the guide and it works fine until I get to the make runtest step. At this point it throws the [ RUN ] ImageDataLayerTest/0.TestResize *** Aborted at 1477424981 (unix time) try "date -d @1477424981" if you a...

If someone is interested
also hello nobody
(must be tough living without a body)
 
user1593881
Tell that to AI when it wipes us all out.
 
@Thijser A good computer net obviates such outdated means of life.
 
8:45 PM
@Thijser Unless you wrote the code yourself, it's quite unlikely that we will be able to help you narrow down the problem.
 
But it still needs a body just not an organic one
@fredoverflow was hoping someone had seen the exception before and could give me some general direction (just googling the error gives around 80 hits none of which actually specify what's wrong except for various people telling you it's a problem in their code)
 
Have you ruled out a problem in your code?
 
Yes using the tested "not my code" method of compiling an existing program that instantly crashes
But that doesn't have to mean the underlying code is perfect.
 
Have you tried this suggestion? > Aborted at 1477424981 (unix time) try "date -d @1477424981" if you are using GNU date ***
 
@Thijser Perfect code. Now that's a good one!
 
8:49 PM
yes
that converts the data to a readable format but doesn't actually do much else
or I can use it to screw with the compiler by making it think half of all files were produced in the future by appending -d @1477424981 to the make command
 
@Thijser Given your rep, I suggest you change your profile to a Boeing airplane ;)
 
Won't last somewhere this week I'm bound to get an upvote or decide that I'm tired of one of my unanswered question and put a bounty on it
I have spend about 600 karma here on bounties now
 
@Thijser It looks like a similar bug has been confirmed in Ubuntu's gnome-shell causing segfaults (SIGSEV). There's also the same bug confirmed on Ubuntu virtualbox. Confirm that you are on the latest versions, and if so, consider using another program to execute the code.
 
@fredoverflow I'd go for something more subtle. In the Air Force, we sometimes painted a spring (signifying "boing") over some of the "Boeing" marks on a B-52.
 
That might be related thanks
 
9:01 PM
No worries. If you're messing around with pthreads yourself, be sure to double check for this sneaky bug: stackoverflow.com/questions/939747/…
 
Wait the gnome shell shouldn't be the one I'm using by default right?
 
@Aaron3468 That's not a bug. Just a tricky API. Though I am glad that C++ mostly eliminates the need to mess with pthreads or WinAPI CreateThread.
 
@Mysticial Agreed. The API is okay, but allows naive usage to cause bugs (rather than failing fast)
 
I don't think there's a better alternative for a C API.
Or at least type-erasure is pretty much unavoidable in C.
 
Yeah. This is why it's always a good idea to know about the underlying platform you're writing for. Even if you're writing a language like Python or Haskell
 
9:08 PM
I've recently ran into several cases where I wanted to use type-erasure. But I've managed to design out of it. Either with a template or with some virtual method interface or some sort.
 
I always have trouble with what features are part of what language (4 years of computer science and having programmed in 12 different languages have that effect)
 
user1804599
I don't have that problem at all, after 11 years of computer programming in 25-odd languages.
 
@Thijser That's expected - especially if you've touched 12 languages in a short amount of time. It takes a certain level of pedantic snobbery before you can know what things are part of C++ and what things aren't, but universally supported.
 
user1804599
But then again, I'm vastly superior to all other humans and robots.
 
You spend 3 times as long on only about twice as many language and I doubt any were as insane as say goal
 
9:14 PM
@rightfold We knew that already because you can single-handedly shutdown meta with only one part of your body.
3
 
(the language that deeply upset us when it removed a code injection trick that allowed us to execute java code rather then actual goal code)
But of course I hope that if you are professionally programming you are not doing so in a language which the feature most people are most fond of is being allowed to program in another language (even if doing so is made cumbersome by the language itself).
 
wut
 
Well it's a language that is designed specifically for AI
It's basically prolog except you are forced to use a certain structure
But they didn't want to implement their own compiler
 
I've got a small set of languages I'm competent with. Only the last 3 or 4 years of my programming experience could be considered productive, but my overall experience means I rarely make mistakes I cannot solve within an hour.
 
so they instead took a piece of java code and inserted the users code into that. Except with some tricks you could escape the insertion and then execute java code instead which allowed for things like hashmaps.
 
9:20 PM
@Aaron3468 Same. I used to claim competency in C, C++, Java, and C#. But I'm dropping C# off that list, and I'm downgrading my Java. I don't use Java much, and I haven't touched C# in years.
Also, I've "noticed" this trend of people wanting to learn every single programming language out there. And it reflects in some or the resumes that I see where someone lists like 30 different things.
 
@Thijser It's trivial to make a compiler (albeit, nonoptimizing) to Java bytecode. I'd argue that a language without a compiler or interpreter is so disadvantaged as to not deserve to be called a language
 
I don't know if it's actually a trend, or if there's some bias on my part.
 
I only claim competency in C++ and Python, and I don't even know many used frameworks.
 
Whereas I decided to remain specialized.
 
9:23 PM
@Mysticial you can answer them with rightfold's
 
@Aaron3468 well if you can get away with inserting your code into an existing compiler with some modifications than I think that's not a big problem as long as speed isn't a big concern (and dealing with problems such as only 1 namespace and exponenially complex programs most programs tend to only be 100 lines).
 
@Mysticial definitely a fair observation. I think it's just the growth of technology and the conversion of programming into a skill with a consumer base that follows all the latest "Code in 20 days" publications. I specialize mostly in Python and C++ (and enough Java to survive), but I want to shift into Rust as the graphics libraries mature.
 
Some of the recruiting emails that I get are like, "Great new opportunity! Competitive conpensation 120k+ stock! Technologies, Node.JS, AWS, ReactiveJS, PHP!"
 
@Thijser I suppose, if the language is more along the level of complexity one might expect from a shader language. But in that case a compiler is even more trivial and easy to do.
 
I'm like FFS, what in the fucking world makes you think I know those "technologies"?
 
9:25 PM
I honestly think that given two weeks of programming in a given language I can get my competency up to a reasonable level.
 
@Thijser Competence, absolutely. Skill, definitely not; there is a lot of best practice and libraries/frameworks unique to every language, and those take a few years to properly absorb and understand
 
@Thijser I disagree. C++ is basically impossible to become competent in in 2 weeks unless you have a really low bar for "competence". Java has the mandatory 2 week "denial" period of, "why the fuck am I doing this to myself".
 
@Aaron3468 well the language itself was very complex just the programs written in it very simple. But they had a working compiler by basically converting the code (via insertion) into a java compiler. Except that people discovered that with the right pre and post fix you could insert java code and run that instead which had much better performance and possibilities.
 
I can't speak for other languages which I'm not competent in.
 
« C++ in 2 weeks » is generally « hybrid bastard of C and Java with virtual classes everywhere, hand-rolled lists and malloc ».
 
9:29 PM
Well I think you can reach competence in two weeks if you at least dealt with a similar language before, a java program to c# , a c++ program to C, a java programmer to scala. Any programmer to javascript ext.
 
Ven
@Mysticial "who are you and what did you not do to your children while programming java"
@Mysticial don't be mean :(
 
@Morwenn or like std::cout and a command line calculator. It took me 3 years before I could get libraries to compile consistently because the C++ ecosystem is very fractured
 
And @Ven his children probably caused a lot of garbage to go uncollected.
 
Ven
Probably meowed a lot
 
@Ven I'm not saying it's bad. But when I see a resume where the person lists 30 different languages he/she is competent in, I automatically get turned-off because I find it hard to believe they are actually sufficient competent in all of them to actually do the job.
 
9:32 PM
the children, the garbage or the interface that both implement?
 
Ven
@Mysticial sure, you're not really supposed to list a language if you've only done a hello world. I usually link from my github, so the list has some.. "Backbone"
And instead of just being a list of names you can see the code
 
What about people who list maybe 3 or 4 different-purposed languages and say 'willing to learn more as necessary'?
 
Ven
Either doesn't say much tbh
 
@Aaron3468 That works out a lot better. But only if the position is open to training.
 
Ven
People with 30 languages on their resume could be good in a few of those and just not know how2résumé
 
9:34 PM
The reason people like to list 30 languages is probably because they believe they could do a job in them( maybe with a 2 weeks warning) and that otherwise they might be filtered out
 
@Thijser And that's what an interview is for. :)
 
« Languages I wish I could learn in a professional environment » would be fun on a cv.
 
I don't know so far I was always hired on cv/git basis only as a student
 
@Thijser Finding work is a lot like dating; you don't want to seem desperate and quality is generally better than hitting on everything that moves
7
 
^
It's exactly like dating
 
9:35 PM
> "The Church raises no doctrinal objections to this practice, since cremation of the deceased's body does not affect his or her soul," the guidelines continue, "nor does it prevent God, in his omnipotence, from raising up the deceased body to new life."
Oh Pope and churches. Never change.
 
You flirt, they maybe ask you back for another date, you text them after thanking them
 
By the way does the linkedin/github/email spam get better or am I forever doomed to receiving constant job bombartment?
 
@gowrath When is the blowjob?
 
@sehe The best thing about Church is that rules are retroactive.
 
@Thijser The latter. I get a lot of recruitment spam in languages which I've only heard about from SO's front page of garbage.
 
9:37 PM
@Morwenn It's not the only aspect in which they can be qualified as retro-
 
@sehe Final round interviews
 
My personal experience with this is more "they flirt, you respond, they ask if you can start tomorrow"
 
@gowrath I skip those :(
 
@sehe Do they retroengineer things too? :D
 
Fuck, i'm behind the game clearly
 
9:38 PM
I think I might simply be asking to little money (well my salary has risen by a 500% increase in 4 years but still)
 
Ven
@Mysticial well, see, I don't even hope for such a level of knowledge of hardware and asm. I'd love to, but I know how much I don't [know]. It's all time and tradeoffs
 
@sehe At least the Catholic church is marginally less ridiculous than some of the others. For example, unlike many, they've actually semi-officially admitted that the theory of evolution is probably reasonably accurate...
 
Ven
I would really like to learn about x86 and stuff but I don't even know where to start
 
anyway I'm going to sleep
 
Ven
@JerryCoffin they totally accepted it, rather
 
9:39 PM
@Ven Well yeah. I can't (and don't want to) do any full-stack or web-development jobs. So I'm basically forced to relocate to Chicago which is where all the HPC C++ stuff is.
 
bye all
 
Being specialized makes it harder to find a job.
 
Ven
@Mysticial i don't either, but that's basically all the experience I have, so i get calls every 3 days for such jobs. If I remove my experiences, I remove 10 years
 
@Thijser At one time I was getting bunches of offers for jobs in Texas, so I made up a list of what I thought would be fairly ridiculous requirements. Realized I hadn't kept up with inflation when a recruiter listened to my whole list and (with no apparent sarcasm at all) asked if there was anything else...
 
If I really wanted to, I could go back to Silicon Valley tech doing generalistic full-stack'ish things. But that's not what I want to do.
@JerryCoffin woah, wut
 
Ven
9:41 PM
@Mysticial when you don't even have a degree, you just bend over :(
 
So what happened.? :)
 
@Mysticial I thought fast, and added a few more...
 
@JerryCoffin Didn't you say something like a quarter million or something? :)
I vaguely remember you really hating on Texas. aha
 
@Mysticial Why'd you leave SV?
 
Several reasons:
1. My career somewhat stagnated at Google. And I never got to do the things that I wanted to do (performance-critical C++).
2. I wanted to see what the finance industry was like. (and a bit of parental pressure in this category as well)
3. The pay is lot better in Chicago than in SV.
 
Ven
9:46 PM
You have parents :o
I thought you were born from the love of a x86 manual and an Intel book...
4
 
I got a similar feeling about Google
When applying
 
@Mysticial I think I asked for a salary of $125K (but at the time that was around double the average). But I also asked for a company car and subsidy to pay any difference in housing cost between Colorado and their location.
 
#stillabrokecollegestudent
 
@Mysticial I'm not particularly excited about the weather there, that's for sure.
 
@gowrath Google also doesn't want specialists as much as generalists. People bounce around so much that everybody has to be able to do everything. Which I could do like everyone else. But I'm not particularly good at it - at least not better than anyone else. So I stagnated, stuck as an "entry-level" developer.
Don't get me wrong though, Google is a great place to work. Tons of perks, pretty good pay as long as you commute from Nevada everyday.
 
9:50 PM
@JerryCoffin Isn't TX typically cheaper than CO?
 
But it just didn't serve my performance side.
 
I feel
Were you doing systems work there?
 
@caps Overall average, probably yes. Mos of the jobs, for whatever awful reason (probably because nobody sane wanted to live there any more than I did) were in downtown Houston.
 
@gowrath C#/Xbox 360. Java+Android.
@JerryCoffin I supposed you didn't want to be surrounded by rednecks either? :P
 
@Mysticial Wasn't on the list, I'm afraid. I wanted it to sound almost realistic.
 
9:53 PM
@Mysticial Houston isn't too bad as far as rednecks go. Although yes, the surrounding countryside may be more redneckish than CO or CA
 
@gowrath So basically when someone in Chicago offered to double me up for a job in performance-critical C++, I took it.
Granted, it's been a rough ride since with getting fired and another job hunt. But I don't regret the move.
 
@Thijser Slaap lekker!
 
How come the bass of one of Shpongle's tracks always reminds me of a Massive Attack song?
 
@Mysticial I should probably add: when I made the list, I pretty much put it together as an idea that if somebody really would give me that much, I'd at least give really serious consideration to taking the job--but the intent was that I'd have to make enough to save at least an average year's salary every year I put up with it.
 
@Mystical sorry to hear about the firing
Glad things worked out
 
9:59 PM
@StackedCrooked what happened to Coliru? Is it going to die? Can I get my archives before it's gone :)
 
@gowrath TBH, in retrospect so far, it's been a blessing in disguise. From my termination through the subsequent job-hunt process, I learned more about the politics in the industry that I could've imagined.
 
@sehe it works for me, which is weird
 
That is weird indeed
Maybe I got banned
 
Griwes had said it didn't work for him yesterday too, so I feel as if I'm the only one
 
@JerryCoffin aha. How's SoCal treating you? I hear the weather down there is also pretty unforgiving during the summers.
 
10:03 PM
@sehe It didn't work for me either last time I tried to use it.
 
I've had problems for about 2 days now. Actually posted Wandbox links in my answers
@milleniumbug What works? Archive or new entry?
 
@Mysticial Pretty happy so far. Weather's nice as long as you stay really close to the coast--like within five miles of the water--but there's full-blown dessert only a couple hours east, so the summer weather gets hotter pretty quickly as you move inland.
 
@sehe I can write a new entry, and share it too, so I can get a new link
so, both
tried doing nslookup and it timed out
 
@sehe Looks like one of the script refs is broken, that's all
 
user1804599
@sehe Jij ook!
 
10:08 PM
NorCal weather is dank rn
 
user1804599
@Mysticial with zero parts of my body 😜
 
@gowrath It did rain here yesterday/last night, but it's clear and 72 with a light breeze now...
 
@rightfold Nu al
Don't fall asleep now
that would be a waste of time
 
did you cache him thinking he was immutable?
 
@sehe yay now it stopped working for me too
 
10:18 PM
@JohanLarsson No. Did you catch him thinking he was immutable?
 
I tried
 
@JohanLarsson He is
 
remember to dispose him when you are done
 
@JohanLarsson Do. Or do not. There is no try.
 
wrong, there is try cache
there is also the mechanical nullcheck pattern
 
10:23 PM
@sehe he didn’t use to be though
 
try
    ...
catch
    BreakExpensiveHardware()
 
@JohanLarsson Mechanical mullcheck? Is that when you strain spices and stuff out of the hot cider?
 
@LucDanton that's deep
 
@JohanLarsson "Press to test". "Test passed. Release to detonate."
 
@sehe n+1
 
10:33 PM
But hey, I see there is a shiny new place where you can "Touch to pay Apple $326.20"! So there's that @mattiasgeniar @MasteringVim
 
I thought it’s usually the other way around
 
So, all concurrency problems can be solve by deep copies. I dare you to prove me wrong.
 
@Mikhail Just borrow immutable refs :v
 
@Mikhail my copy constructor is not thread-safe, what do I do?
 
> collection was modified
 
10:37 PM
@LucDanton You borrow the object immutably
 
duh
 
that’s not type-safe
 
Oh wait, this is C++ where everything is real but also everything is permitted.
 
real?
Are you talking about lazy evaluation?
 
It's always been a problem of multiple mutable references coexisting. But there's a more subtle reason deep copies don't always work; if control flow is manipulated by the read-only references, then it is possible for the references to not be updated in a timely manner/order and each thread to be in the wrong states at the wrong time.
 
10:40 PM
That is why you deep copy them
 
@Mikhail Good luck deep copying your entire database every read
 
Are you implying my code isn't webscale?
 
@Puppy "Merely" a performance problem, not a concurrency problem. I prefer my own version of quantum computing where I just spawn a new universe for every read though. Ensures that references of any depth are still handled transparently.
 
hmm
 
vimeo.com/108898457 Intriguing jobs
 
10:43 PM
not necessarily, since the database can be mutated by another thread whilst the copy is happening
 
@Mikhail I recently was working on a problem involving asynchronous status checking. Basically, I have multiple threads computing a recursion. And every second, a "status thread" would need to print out the progress of the recursion and what parts of it are being worked on.
 
@Mikhail Yes, but lets say that thread A enters a wait mode according to that deep copy, and thread B also does, but now you have no active threads because you didn't pass a new deep copy somewhere to tell one of them to stay awake; it turns out you are leaking state anyways because you poorly designed the behaviour of your concurrent threads
 
Well you can just have serial access to the database
 
sorry, but you already failed
 
That was a difficult one.
 
you can't have serial access to the database since serializing threads requires threading primitives, which are not deep copies and therefore you are forbidden from using them.
just serialize all the accesses already solves the problem without requiring 99 deep copies
 
So although deep, immutable copies solve many problems, you still need to ensure that your threads have a well-defined set of states that do not block eachother.
 
@Aaron3468 Yeah. I find myself staring a notebook and pencil trying to work up async designs for that kind of stuff.
 
@Aaron3468 You still need the copying. Thread start is also a synchronization point, so copy-before-start doesn't count :)
2016: People still looking at things to see whether they're bullets made of silver
 
I treat the lycanthrope threat very seriously
3
 
10:49 PM
@Mysticial Would that be an example where you can tolerate errors due to partial reads/writes?
 
@Mysticial Yep! Some strategies are very effective at canceling whole classes of bugs, but bugs that arise out of dysfunctional relationships are remarkably hard to anticipate and/or identify /cc @sehe
 
@LucDanton I only take it seriously in the case of misanthropic lycanthropes.
 
@Mikhail It depends on how you define "partial". The prototype example I was working on was the following recursion:
void func(int depth){
    if (depth == 0){
        return;
    }

    //  Run in parallel
    func(depth - 1);
    func(depth - 1);
}
If you run with a single thread, the progress can be visualized as:

00110101100

Where 0 is inside the first recursive call and 1 is inside the second.
When you run with multiple threads, the progress will look like this: (4 threads)
00100101100
    1101010
   10001011
    1010111
Each row is a thread working on its own sub-part of the recursion.
So I wanted to build something that would generate that last diagram once a second. And with minimal interference with the computation threads.
 
10:55 PM
@Mysticial I'm talking about the stuff that happens when two threads write to a double and you get crap
 
@Mikhail In this case, there are no write races.
 
there was a word for it...
 
It's a reader thread asynchronously reading a mutating tree.
@Mikhail Wait. I don't see how deep copies can solve write races to the same objects if those writes are necessary? Isn't that just a reduction of some sort?
 

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