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2:00 PM
still, might be a helpful idea albeit one that is probably a last resort kind of thing /cc @moravec here's the article majantali.net/2016/10/how-breakpoints-are-set
 
or by layering your own transparent window overtop to intercept the clicks and delay the propagation
 
that's an idea, if it's acceptable to do it like that
if the other app is very simple you can also just write your own proxy UI
so you don't deal with overlaid UIs
and windows
 
Ell
*Main Data.Set> tru
λt. λf. t
*Main Data.Set> fls
λt. λf. f
yay
 
keep the other app running in the background and your UI in sync with its UI
haha I like that @ratchetfreak
I'll def remember this trick
@Ven see
me trying to help him resulted in multiple helpings
 
user1804599
@Ell elaborate
 
Ell
2:04 PM
@rightfold I'm just started writing an untyped lambda calculus thing in haskell
I just wrote the printing algebra for it
that is all :P
but I'm about to do evaluation/reduction
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
it's somewhat disheartening that dead links and old things are so everywhere on haskell wikis and stuff
half of the links on the page about units of measure in haskell are dead
you get these often
 
Ven
@BogdanAlexandru yay
 
Ell
ah wait
I think what I want to do isn't possible
or maybe it is. I need to read some more
 
2:17 PM
@rightfold he's having a rightfold moment about how you can express true and false as functions
 
Ell
@Griwes nah
I had that ages ago
 
I notice the lounge has stopped pointing vampires to the question room?
 
Ell
I'm just showing my progress :P
@sehe he was rather quick at ignoring the "No you can't post question in here"...
 
Who? We're likely not talking about the same persons
 
Ell
@sehe Oh I was talking about moravec
 
2:20 PM
I was too, actually. Oh well.
Do we move him still?
 
Ell
I'm not sure, it looks like he's gone already
 
y'all too stiff
I learned a bunch of stuff because of him coming here
 
Ven
@rightfold do you know the expect language?
@sehe alexm started to help him, so I stopped.
 
user1804599
@Ven no
 
Ven
not like I can move messages anyway
 
user1804599
2:24 PM
@Ven what is this?
 
Ven
@rightfold apparently it's not actually a full-blown lang, just a tcl ext
 
user1804599
link
 
Ven
Expect, an extension to the Tcl scripting language written by Don Libes, is a program to automate interactions with programs that expose a text terminal interface. Expect was originally written in 1990 for Unix systems, but is now also available for Microsoft Windows and other systems. It is used to automate control of interactive applications such as telnet, ftp, passwd, fsck, rlogin, tip, ssh, and others. Expect uses pseudo terminals (Unix) or emulates a console (Windows), starts the target program, and then communicates with it, just as a human would, via the terminal or console interface. Tk...
 
user1804599
lol Tcl
 
Ven
% set cmd {puts "hey"}
puts "hey"
% set func if
if
% $func {true} $cmd
hey
TCL is :')
 
Ell
2:32 PM
It would be nice to be able to do this in a language:
substitute :: String -> Term a -> Term a -> Term a
substitute x s x = s
to indicate that the 1st and 3rd parameter are equal
 
Ven
you... can do that in some
 
Ell
which?
 
Ven
Idris, Agda
 
what would that help with?
 
Ven
proving stuff
 
2:41 PM
meh, glorious Coq masterrace
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
seriously google
 
user1804599
@Ell In Erlang, you can do that: substitute(X, S, X) = S;, also in logic languages such as Mercury
 
user1804599
@Ven He means pattern matching, not types.
 
Ell
yeah pattern matching
I guess in idris they are the same though right
 
Ven
2:43 PM
aah ok
 
@rightfold I'm sure it also applies some history into results
 
user1804599
You have to handle the other case anyway :p
 
there has to be a reason for showing me LaTeX first
 
Ven
case (x, 1, `x`) =>
 
when I search for "latex"
 
Ven
2:44 PM
that works in scala, IIRC.
the equivalent in Elixir should work asw ell
@BogdanAlexandru
 
Ell
@Ven I see what you did there
 
Nice People Really Do Have More Fun
Selfish nastiness is all the rage, but research shows that pleasant behavior leads to more success and happiness in life. http://www.wsj.com/articles/nice-people-really-do-have-more-fun-1476916829
 
@Griwes Yes. Like that exactly.
 
@caps I prefer not to try to imagine the hellish wording that'd require.
I think it's currently specified with generic lambdas, which makes it trivial to specify.
 
@Griwes I prefer not to ever think about how the standard is actually written.
 
2:49 PM
:D
 
Ven
@BogdanAlexandru lol i'm supposed to register
 
oh god
bad link sorry
actually it's the right link, weird
gimme a sec it works w/o registering for me
 
Ven
maybe you have a referrer
and that's why it works
 
nope
so the paywalled link was posted on HN
but if you googled for the title
the first result would be that page and you'd be able to see it
 
Ven
REFERRERS!!!!1
 
2:53 PM
@Ven see? google.ro/…
 
Ell
man
 
user1804599
hi
 
user1804599
I want to make a video game
 
Ell
I'm confused about how much stuff an "algebra" can do in an f-algebra
as in, how much "power" this: type FAlgebra f a = Functor f => f a -> a has
 
Ven
@BogdanAlexandru yup works for me as well
 
2:54 PM
Have you all seen this yet? arstechnica.com/security/2016/10/…
 
websites are so complicated
with all their sign up stuff
 
It's a security vulnerability in the linux kernel. 9 years old.
 
@thecoshman I'm not any more, but back when I did mostly patent stuff, well...telecom is full of patents, so to speak, so I did a fair amount there.
 
@StackedCrooked this could be very relevant to Coliru
 
Ven
> In my view, the fact that niceness beats physical beauty is evidence of the existence of God.
WTF are you linking to us
 
3:00 PM
is that in the article?
 
Ven
yes
 
I can't open it anymore
I don't remember that phrase
 
Ven
lol
 
you sure it wasn't a comment?
 
Ven
yes
 
3:02 PM
that's weird
eh
the mention of studies and results are still there, just ignore that phrase
 
Ven
:P
 
of course
 
can you paste the fragment?
I don't remember the author speaking about themselves at all
 
He already did. LERN2SRCH
 
Ven
> The results were clear and conclusive. When their looks were equivalent, “Nice Todd” outperformed Neutral Mike. “Jerk Todd” lost 85% of the time to Mike even when Todd was better looking. In my view, the fact that niceness beats physical beauty is evidence of the existence of God.
 
3:03 PM
I sure glanced over that
hahaha
 
It could be an 'obvious' tongue-in-cheek remark. Though that would be a silly move in a paper
 
it seems so random compared to the rest of the article
 
@sehe it's not a paper, it's an article mentioning studies and (implicitly) papers
written by a journalist
 
> the mention of studies and results are still there, just ignore that phrase
I was sort of inferring scientific pretense from that
 
3:04 PM
who seems to have decided to drop a personal belief in it
 
That's what I meant. Strange (dumb?) choice
 
nah mentioning as in "these scientists found this: ..." not in a citation kind of way
 
@JerryCoffin it's thrilling isn't it ¬_¬
 
Ell
@rightfold does that functional programming chat exist still?
 
you mean chatroom here?
or the big FP slack?
 
Ell
3:09 PM
I meant here
but you did just remind me of the slack
 
@thecoshman I'm not sure "thrilling" is the word I'd use, but it is pretty interesting.
 
yea the FP slack is the biggest chat I ever saw for FP
 
Ell
I'll go there
 
it's also frequented by people who do things in FP from what I saw
i.e. FP OS contributors and book authors
so the knowledge pool > 9000
 
Ven
yes it's pretty nice
 
user1804599
3:14 PM
@Ell yes
 
user1804599
fpchat.com
 
Ell
I'm there now :3
thanks
 
@JerryCoffin The main thing I learned from working in telecoms, it's a fucking miracle any of this shit actually works :S
 
Ven
The main thing I learned from programming is that this ^ is true of any computer program.
 
@thecoshman When I compare telecom to web dev (for one obvious example) it's no surprise to me that telecom actually does work, and web dev (mostly) limps along kinda, sorta half working, but never really works, and frequently doesn't work at all.
 
3:32 PM
@JerryCoffin tbf the web dev doesn't notice much of that because the hard problems were largely solved for them
 
@Mgetz The hard problems were already solved, and they still manage to much things up with vast dreams, but half-vast solutions to the easy problems they still face.
 
@JerryCoffin scaling is a hard problem when you want to have state
 
@Mgetz it's only hard when the state needs to be consistent
 
@Ven I'm honestly pretty impressed with the code base I'm working on right now. It has been around for a while, but the core authors and architects are pretty good and it shows up in the code.
 
@ratchetfreak True. The funny thing is we've known this for a long time, all the high scalability patterns were largely invented for the US Military back in the '60s
 
3:40 PM
@Mgetz It can be (but isn't necessarily). The problem right now is that we don't want to admit the state is necessary, so instead of designing something that provides state and still scales to at least some degree, we basically agree that state is bad, provide solutions that might scale, but don't really solve the problems, and leave solving the real problems to individual web devs, most of whom are poorly qualified for the task, and don't have time for that even if they were.
 
@JerryCoffin I know what you mean
 
@SectoKia I didn't say it's wrong. Just multiplication by 27 might be faster than multiplication by 26. Look at the dissassembly and you'll see — Lưu Vĩnh Phúc 5 hours ago
^^ I fail to see the bit-hack or lea-hack that would make that true.
 
Ven
lea, elle est pas terroriste, elle est pas anti-terroriste
 
oooh... There's a lea-hack to do 27.
x = x + 2*x;
x = x + 8*x;
 
That's likely something compilers know
 
3:52 PM
An integer multiply is 3 cycles. lea can multiply by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9 in 1 cycle.
So anything that can factor into two integers in the set (2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 9) can be done as two leas.
There's more flexibility than that. You can get multiplication by 13 with something like this:
a = x + 8*x
b = a + 4*x
 
user1804599
4:17 PM
Only in NL: Amsterdam pops up drug testing facilities to test your illegal MDMA for quality.
 
user1804599
To reduce the amount of fatalities at festivals.
 
Ell
and increase the consumption of MDMA
 
user1804599
Well, people take MDMA anyway, no matter whether it's prohibited, so it's better for them to take less toxic pills.
 
And what will be result of those test - list of a "trusted" drugdealers?
 
user1804599
Good pill or bad pill
 
4:29 PM
AFAIK MDMA is fairly safe. It's not really that addictive, if at all, and if you keep hydrated, the risks of complications is low
 
This year in our school we have enough girls. So what my colleagues did is they drafted a collection of pictures from them from facebook or whatever and asked the males to rate them in order to elect miss school.
 
I mostly find it funny how most drugs sound bad, then you compare them to alcohol, and you are just left confused to fuck why one is banned and the other is fine
 
Without their permission.
 
Oh that's dank
I take it you mean uni school right?
 
yes
 
4:31 PM
yeah, not very cool
 
Ell
@Shoe that seems not good
but if they're on facebook and you're all friends on facebook
 
And then went ahead and published the results in every possible official group (of which we have many) there's of our course.
 
user1804599
@thecoshman it's about pills that were made by badlets and contain toxic substances
 
@Ell You don't have to be friends to pick the profile picture out.
 
Ell
that makes it more acceptable, not less
I wouldn't participate in it, but if you put a picture on the internet in a public way like facebook profile pictures
 
4:33 PM
How the pictures were taken is not really the issue here
 
Ell
then you are letting people see the photos
you have already given permission no?
 
@Ell Strictly speaking, you're not wrong, but there are social and moral conventions at play.
 
Yes, it's probably legally alright to distribute their photos; but as I said, that's not the issue here
It's diminishing towards those that weren't rated very high. And generally speaking putting up a beauty contest without the participants knowing and then going ahead and posting the results is not very nice
 
user1804599
Shall I write a roguelike or a type checker?
 
4:39 PM
@rightfold Go for the game.
 
Go sucks
 
user1804599
Roguelike it is.
 
@Shoe ohboy
 
@Abyx A terrible name for a fairly terrible language.
 
other new languages aren't much better
did you see that guard keyword in Swift?
 
4:49 PM
@Shoe Exactly. It is not something you could sue over or put someone in jail for, but it is pretty douchey.
And actually, with good enough lawyers you might be able to find grounds to sue somewhere.
 
Emotional harm or something.
 
guard let a = f() else { throw Error; } instead of if let a = f() { use(a); } else { throw Error; } or so they say
 
@caps Actually, I'd guess that the use of the photos really is copyright infringement.
 
@JerryCoffin Good point
 
4:58 PM
@Abyx Open to argument, IMO. Compare Go to Rust, for example. Go is basically on the order of Oberon with C-like syntax and an integrated derivative of Protocol buffers, but missing a lot of extremely useful things (e.g., generics in any form) that are thoroughly tested, the design trade-offs well known, and so on. In short, it's missing well-known things we already know it should have.
Rust, by contrast, not only already includes most things it obviously needs, but is really pushing into new territory, trying to accomplish things no other language has ever really attempted. I'm not ready to drop everything else yet, but at least it's avoiding most obvious mistakes, and trying to push beyond that into doing something new and useful.
In short, Go makes obvious mistakes, and provides nothing really new. Some of the others avoid those mistakes and at least try to provide something new and interesting.
 
Rust might end up like D. Great language (on paper) which is not used by anyone.
rofl
nice try
 
@Abyx ...except that it's already being used a little, and even if it fails as a production language (certainly a possibility) we'll have learned something from it that's likely to improve future languages (and even current ones--there are already people thinking about how much of that protection can be added to C++ without massive breakage). The only thing to learn from Go is: "don't do that again."
 
@JerryCoffin I have no idea why anyone is interested in Go. I knew people at my last job that were excited about it, but I can't understand why. What's the point? What is even supposed to be the featureset that makes it special?
@JerryCoffin *without ?
 
@caps goroutines
 
@caps In a name, Google is what makes it interesting. Seriously, without that, nobody would think of Go as being any more exciting than watching paint dry.
@caps Yeah, thanks.
 
5:20 PM
as far as Rust vs D is concerned
I'd say that Rust is D's main enemy
Mozilla is taking care to push Rust around
D doesn't get that
 
user1804599
D is a mess.
 
if Mozilla's new web engine becomes successful (it's written in Rust)
we'll see Rust on every device
 
user1804599
lol Servo
 
I'm having a terrible issue where a preloaded .so static constructors run in an incorrect order and crash the process :w
 
I don't know either rust nor D but I'm not sure what D's distinguishable features are
with Rust it's easy because it gets hyped a lot: memory safety
 
Ell
5:22 PM
@rightfold it's cool
 
so it feels like Rust solves bigger problems than D does
but I'm ignorant of both so probably wrong :P
 
@BogdanAlexandru That's one of D's problems. Nearly the only way to even describe it is in contrast to C++, and even that's mostly in ways that only a small percentage of C++ programmers can easily understand, not to mention really caring all that much about.
 
@BogdanAlexandru I don't think it is all that badly wrong, really. D is largely C++ with some annoyances removed (but quite a few others added).
 
> Verify Java Version
Check to ensure that you have the recommended version of Java installed for your operating system.
Verifying your Java version will only work in Desktop mode on Windows 8 and Windows 8.1. See the Java on Windows 8 FAQ for more detailed information.
does anyone do this after updating?
I never do this
 
5:31 PM
This talk is a little disappointing to someone who's already written a lot of STL-style algorithms.
But it seems like a good introduction to people who are new to the idea.
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
lol cookie clicker
 
Sadly the 2nd law of thermodynamics is bound to render this useless.
 
> ethanol
> fuel
lol
YOU CAN MAKE VODKA OUT OF AIR
 
5:56 PM
Ugh. I knew the Spanish NB would issue some retarded comments, but JFC, "resolution: remove inline variables from C++17". FUCK YOU.
I deeply hate that idiot who's the head of the Spanish NB.
Also kek they want structured binding's syntax to be changed back to {}.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes If you view it as a way of producing energy, you're clearly right. If you view it as a way of storing energy, however, it could have substantial value. One of the big problems with both wind and solar farms is sporadic production. An efficient way of storing that energy could make them much more viable.
 
AND NB FOR INCLUDING CONCEPTS IN 17.
 
@Borgleader Here's a new one:
-11
Q: Does anyone have a set of input for me to test my solution?

NateI'm currently learning c# from this book Titled "intro to programming with C#" which can be found at http://www.introprogramming.info/english-intro-csharp-book/. Anyways im currently solving this tutorial question and I was wondering if anyone out there has done this particular Question yet from...

 
JFC this is so retarded that the Spanish NB's head should be fired.
 
@Griwes inline variables?
 
6:00 PM
@Puppy inline variables.
Like inline functions, but variables.
 
@Griwes NB?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So the ability to have multiple definitions as long as they are identical?
 
Yes.
@caps National body.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes You can do that?
Not that I've ever tried.
 
@Mysticial In c++17 you can
4
 
6:01 PM
I've always used the static wrapper function work-around.
 
It's actually an ability that compilers have had for ages, but now it's been given direct syntax.
 
They really should stop calling it inline.
 
@JerryCoffin Also, theoretically a way to consume carbon dioxide and reduce the quantities of it in the environment.
 
It's totally contrary to the spirit of the word "inline'.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes In particular, C has had "tentative definitions" forever.
 
6:04 PM
@caps By producing tons of ethanol waste?
 
you bois
haven't felt this good in ages
everything is going awesome in my life
 
Because if you burn it back, you're putting it back out.
 
chemistry?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Because humanity never can think of anything to do with ethanol ;p
 
@Puppy well, it can be used again as a bio fuel instead of drinking it
 
6:05 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Sure--but you can reduce other ways already being used to produce it that also produce substantially more waste (assuming it's efficient enough that it really does produce less waste--but we don't yet know that, of course).
 
@JerryCoffin Do they really produce a lot of waste?
Reducng oil and grain usage is good, but AFAIK the production doesn't give out a lot of waste.
Quick googling says that ethylene hydration has no waste products. Fermentation produces CO2.
So it just boils down to how much electricity they need.
 
6:23 PM
Going from low-concentration ethanol in water to high-concentration ethanol takes almost as much energy as you get from burning the resulting ethanol, last I checked. And sun+CO2->low concentration ethanol consists of planting sugar beets, harvesting, fermenting in water already.
 
Right. If you turn around and use the ethanol for combustion you haven't got anywhere (although you are theoretically less reliant on fossil fuels) but the real win from where I sit is that it's a way to reduce CO2 levels more or less "for free"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes The usual method of producing ethanol is fractional distillation. So you basically grind the grain and let water sit in the crushed grain to leach out the starch and sugar it. Let that ferment (initially heating it to ~45C to help the fermentation start, then cooling it to maintain 45C as the fermentation releases heat). Boil it. Cool a surface for the steam to condense on. Boil and condense again (usually 2 or 3 times for Whisky, at least 3 and sometimes up to 5 for Vodka).
So, you basically get grinding, and repeated heating and cooling consuming energy--and quite a bit of CO2 being released during fermentation.
 
@Mysticial Is it not... in line with your own definition?
8
 
@Mysticial >Using the described in this chapter methodology of solving programming problems
I hope that's not how the sentence is in the book...
 
The idea of operator. scares me.
 
6:36 PM
@jaggedSpire At least the girls have a sense of humor and are about to elect a Mister Computer Science as well.
 
@GManNickG I can't exactly blame you, but I can also seem the attraction of "smart reference" types.
 
Go girls I guess
 
user1804599
@GManNickG The idea of adding any new features to C++ scares every competent person
 
@fredoverflow lol
 
6:45 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes When we'll invent nuclear fusion this won't be an issue. Then again fuel in general won't be either.
 
Nuclear fusion has been "invented" a long time ago (hydrogen bomb).
 
user1804599
Discovered.
 
Proven to be plausible
 
7:07 PM
Yo guys, is there an equivalent of template<std::size_t N> in Rust? How do you call these things?
Numeric templates?
 
@Shoe No
It's planned, though
 
Is there a case where passing a lvalue to a constructor will select the one that takes a rvalue reference?
 

Rust

In Rust we trust! Rust is a systems programming language focus...
 
@набиячлэвэли What's the name of the feature?
 
@Shoe Follow a couple messages from here
 
7:11 PM
That's a link to the chat. Did you mean to link to the transcript by any chance?
 
@Shoe Fixed, I fucked up copypaste
 
Ven
Rip github
 
> We are investigating DNS resolution issues for GitHub.com.
 
in Rust, Oct 17 at 22:40, by набиячлэвэли
dependent typing sounds like FP cancer to me :v
lol?
 
in Rust, Oct 17 at 22:47, by набиячлэвэли
@LukasKalbertodt I've only ever heard about it when rightfold or Bartek were boasting about how good it is
 
7:20 PM
@Borgleader
as Basil Fawlty said (roughly): std::sort works. You don't. — Jean-François Fabre 10 hours ago
 
user1804599
Cool, Minecraft got/gets official mod tools.
 
user1804599
Announced.
 
user1804599
Dependent types allow you to reject fewer correct programs.
 
@Borgleader This is why we need #include <chucknorris>:
 
user1804599
While rejecting at least as many incorrect programs.
 
7:22 PM
-9
Q: decrypt a sting with key value

Prashant Bhopte#include <map> #include <set> #include <list> #include <cmath> #include <ctime> #include <deque> #include <queue> #include <stack> #include <string> #include <bitset> #include <cstdio> #include <limits> #include <vector> #include <climits> #include <cstring> #include <cstdlib> #include <fstream> ...

 
user1804599
those includes lol
 
user1804599
downvoted into oblivion
 
wow that list of includes
needs <functional> though
 
Ell
So terrible
 
7:26 PM
Why doesn't this collapse more.
 
It wasn't big enough
 
@Borgleader Question and title of the day:
-12
Q: C++ HELP GETTING STARTED

April Marie JohnsonWrite a C++ program that keeps track of an array of Person objects and handles basic commands. The Person object contains the following fields: •FirstName { string } •LastName { string } INSERT - inserts a Person into the array based on user input, sorts the array by last name, and prints out all...

8/10:
+ All caps title.
+ Copy-paste homework.
+ Very uniform wall of text.
+ Random capitalized words.
- Not enough spelled words.
- Lack of "urgant" or "plz".
- Lack of comments by OP invoking Godwin's Law.
 
user1804599
+ Facebook login.
 
@Mysticial only just now noticed 'sting'
 
7:40 PM
@Mysticial and - no screenshot
 
user1804599
> fire can not burn without the permission of allah
 
user1804599
this is gold
 
@LucDanton there are many more ways for a post to be bad than good
 
Are these bots or actual people?
 
I can't find the c++ chat room for help and questions. Link anybody?
 
user1804599
7:41 PM
> knife can not cut without the permission of allah
 
user1804599
this one is funny because it's true
 
user1804599
a knife is able to not cut without the permission of allah
 

C++ Questions and Answers

Solve problems and approach solutions. Just ask and lurkers wi...
5
 
Thank you
 
it's on the starboard, obviously
Uh. That's gone. :)
 
7:41 PM
@sehe monkeys typewriter, Shakespeare.
 
@Mysticial Jeeeeeeeeeeeeez, its terrible question o'clock apparently
 
It's always TQ o'clock
 
What time is FQDN o'clock?
 
@Borgleader All that bullshit about low-quality questions taking over SO making it undesirable to use? LIES! Low-quality questions have value - lots of it. In the form of entertainment in the Lounge.
 
@CaptainGiraffe That's TQ in a different timezone
 

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