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2:00 PM
Nobody will ever see modules in C++
 
@chmod711telkitty Forever is not enough.
 
@chmod711telkitty Your chickens are racists!
Literally!
 
user406009
Wait, didn't clang have experimental module support?
 
Also, back pain. Probably from stress.
 
@wilx Maybe try working it out?
 
2:07 PM
@Lalaland years ago. not maintained, IIRC
@chmod711telkitty you taught them well
 
Ell
Hi
 
@Ell Hello.
 
Greetings
 
h-ell-o
 
H-ell no!
 
2:10 PM
H-ell oh
 
Ell-mo
 
Ell-moo
 
Ell-mom
 
Lell.
 
> TIL that the first person to jump off the Brooklyn Bridge was a professional high diver who "wanted to demonstrate that people did not die by simply falling through the air". He proved himself correct by falling 135 feet safely through the air, only dying when he hit the water.
 
2:14 PM
fuck sake, working in jabber script is a joke. Having to look up shit like "how to treat a number as a number" "how the fuck does JS do boolean logic". I can't trust anything to be right
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ "He was the brother of women's rights activist[...]". Say no more! (mygonistic comment of the day)
 
@CatPlusPlus thanks for the invite!
 
@thecoshman Welcome to dynamic programming. Having fun yet?
 
and fuck me if I can understand JS use of semi-colon
 
@Rerito lel; females master race
 
2:17 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it's not just the dynamic nonsense, the language it self is just almost as inconsistent as PHP
 
user406009
This (dorey.github.io/JavaScript-Equality-Table) gets annoying real fast.
 
How to semicolon in JS: always, because the JS ASI is shit
 
I've always wondered with what logic "" is false but "a" is true.
 
@nabijaczleweli ASI?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ typing
 
2:20 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Empty/non-empty
 
@thecoshman Age/sex/income
 
@CatPlusPlus So, an empty container should be false? Why?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ using "dynamic programming" to mean "dynamic typing" is an insult to dynamic programming
 
Like with any other sequence/container
 
@thecoshman Automatic Semicolon Insertion
 
2:21 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Because if you want bool coercion it's the only one that makes sense for containers
 
Everything that is not null and false (and maybe undefined) should yield true.
 
> sense
 
That's the only thing that makes sense
And rubby pulls this off perfectly
 
@nabijaczleweli write your program in a single line :D
 
user406009
Having both null and undefined is also stupid.
 
2:22 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ laffo
Don't allow non-booleans in boolean context
 
If I'm not mistaken, in Python empty containers yield false when evaluated as booleans
 
Can't with dynamic typing
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ sorry mate but the empty set yields false...and it's not null.
 
null coercing to false is not any more sensible than empty container coercing to false
 
Which is quite logical in a mathematical pov
 
2:23 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ no, not really
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Typing discipline has nothing to do with that
 
@Rerito and logic in computer science is all mathematical
 
You can have no bool coercion and dynamic typing at the same time without problem
 
Throw an exception on non-boolean value in an if statement, duh
 
Yes, by writing a perfect program
Good luck with that
 
2:24 PM
No
By defining the language that way
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, yes it is because null never compares equal to anything, so in the null == true if evaluation it returns false
 
user406009
Null coercion to false is fine.
 
or something
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Nothing in that sentence is true
 
null compares equal to something?
 
2:24 PM
@Lalaland Let's start with "null is not fine" :v
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Yes, null
 
null == null is never true in any sensible language
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ sigh
 
user406009
No.
 
It's not NaN
 
2:25 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ laffo
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
in SQL maybe (null==null) is NULL
 
user406009
Why do people keep on wanting to break the reflexive property?
 
Ell
Null == bill should be true
 
user406009
a == a.
 
user406009
2:25 PM
All the time.
 
Not all the time, no
 
kill == bull
 
SQL is the only sensible language
 
plz come back when not drunk
 
NaN is crap anyway
 
2:26 PM
null == null yields false in SQL
 
@Lalaland I can't see incoming packets on either Chrome or FF. Am I supposed to get one per message?
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ I liked your Ruby joke better
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Lounge<C++>
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ No, it yields null
 
> sensible language
 
2:26 PM
 
@DonLarynx I'm surprised you'd notice
 
@CatPlusPlus Point is it doesn't yield true
 
So what
 
So it's good
 
It doesn't yield false either, so it's still not relevant to bool coercion discussion
 
2:27 PM
@Nooble what am i looking at here?
 
user406009
@Nooble I thought we went through this. First you got to find the websocket connnection. You can use the "Other" filter in FF or the "WS" filter in chrome.
 
a browser with network view of debug panel
 
whatever nerds
@unordered_meow Is your contribution to the discussion going to be "laffo" all the time?
 
user406009
But FF does not support websocket inspection, so you cannot look at the packets even if you find the websocket.
 
@Lalaland Yes I can see one and only one.
 
2:27 PM
I can take care of that soon if that's the case
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ laffo
 
user406009
In chrome, there is a tab called "Frames" IIRC.
 
(sorry, couldn't resist)
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ what else would be appropriate?
 
2:28 PM
rofl
 
At least be creative
 
You were doing that part
I was amused. I almost smiled twice
 
I'm an artist
 
Ah now I can see it.
 
@Ell kill == bill
 
2:29 PM
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ slow == poke
 
zing
 
mdr
 
enkuler de rire
 
@CatPlusPlus True, but you cannot prevent bool coercion
 
2:31 PM
Uhh
Sure you can
 
You can only act after the fact (e.g. throwing an exception)
 
How do you prevent bool coercion with dynamic typing?
 
It's the same thing as with "whatever" + 42.42, it's just a type error
By not implementing it?
These things don't just happen on their own
 
Yes, throwing an exception/error is acting after the fact
 
2:33 PM
After what fact
 
Prevention is something different
 
There's no fact
 
@CatPlusPlus That you have a non boolean being evaluated as boolean
 
There was no operation done
The operation literally does not exist
 
Nobody cares if there was an operation or not
 
2:33 PM
It is not being evaluated as boolean
What
the fuck
are you talking about
 
It's trying to be evaluated as a boolean
 
And that is not possible because nobody implemented it
 
If you have if (x) ..., you cannot prevent a non-boolean value to become x
 
Ell
What is the difference between a 'coercion' and an implicit conversion?
 
Xeo
2:34 PM
Ohboyohboy, Early Access start on Monday. Tis gonna be fun.
 
Same thing
 
You can only error out when x is a non-boolean
 
And you can only error out when you try to add a string and an integer
Clearly that means they're both being coerced to something
 
On the other hand with strong static typing I can have if (x) and be sure that x will always be a boolean value
@CatPlusPlus Never said so
 
"Become"
What the fuck
 
2:35 PM
I said that you can only error out (act after the fact that something is going to happen)
In that sense yes you are preventing the coercion from actually happening, but you are also stopping the program due to that
 
What's funny?
 
And here's piling of arbitrary nonsense on top of the stupid earlier assertions starts
 
user406009
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ's basically saying that you can have strong typing without static typing.
 
user406009
Which is a valid argument.
 
user406009
2:37 PM
Python actually takes that approach.
 
lol
Shocking
Also fucking throttle
 
lolokcat
You know a discussion has ended when more than 80% of the answers from one side are "lol" and "what"
 
lol discussion
 
lol
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ it was ended when you forget what you were arguing (types of mixed logical expressions)
 
2:40 PM
lmao
 
In which you can't prevent things that are literally impossible because that means runtime errors (which btw are nowhere near 'stopping the program')
 
the "lols" are reactions to changing goalposts
 
Good it's related to bool coercion at all!
And not what happens in every fucking operation that dynamic typing system does
 
> 1. SECURITY FIX: When constructing paths of objects being archived, a buffer
could overflow by one byte upon encountering 1024, 2048, 4096, etc. byte
paths. Theoretically this could be exploited by an unprivileged user whose
files are being archived; I do not believe it is exploitable in practice,
but I am offering a $1000 bounty for the first person who can prove me wrong:
http://www.daemonology.net/blog/2015-08-21-tarsnap-1000-exploit-bounty.html
Tarsnap showing how it's done
 
2:44 PM
first you claimed the only sensible thing is to have false and null to be false and everything else true in languages typing
 
Anyone typically write unit tests?
 
then I suggested
22 mins ago, by unordered_meow
Don't allow non-booleans in boolean context
 
Special-cased bool coercion is better than general bool coercion because
 
and then it went downhill
 
SQL does it (except it doesn't)
 
user406009
2:47 PM
@KalaJ When appropriate for complicated pure (no side effects) functions.
 
oh what do you mean by no side effect functions?
 
@unordered_meow well, if you disregard the whole preamble
 
user406009
Think of like a sort function.
 
user406009
Or a clustering algorithm.
 
If a function f(x) expects a value of such-and-a-such type, then having if(x) refuse a non-boolean is pretty much the same thing
 
2:48 PM
So basically you never wrote a unit test for which a function will return 0; or exit() out of a condition because that's a side effect?
 
user406009
exit() is usually not a good option.
 
user406009
Throwing an exception is better in many cases.
 
it's a type error
sure it's a runtime error, but so what
 
@KalaJ no one ever wrote a unit test for a function that will exit() out of a condition. Because that's not possible
 
user406009
Runtime errors are fine for making a language type safe.
 
2:50 PM
Cough
 
invalid input to your program also results in a runtime error
 
They're the fine for not making the language type safe
3
 
yay runtime errors everywhere
 
user406009
You and I clearly have different definitions of type safety.
 
Nope
type safety in a language, which is what you said, specifically
 
2:51 PM
@sehe nice
 
Fuck I've got the flu
 
should be on twitter
 
It's not making the "language type safe". It might be making the "runtime type safe".
@Mr.kbok NAH. It's only nice as a riposte/echo and I don't think that'd fit. Also, <yawn/> another DT/ST war
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ which is fine in systems that'll rather fail than do the unreasonable thing
 
@Lalaland see here
 
2:53 PM
Flagger is lame AF
 
@sehe I thought flames were the only thing twitter was good at
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ You misspelled "flag" there
 
So, it's better to write a stub that would throw divide by zero exception than exit() out of the condition?
 
@Mr.kbok Possibly. Doesn't mean I have to use twitter for wihat it is good at
 
so that I can assert it will throw that exception
 
2:54 PM
@KalaJ It's better to have a statically checked precondition that an integer passed to that function cannot be 0 :P
 
user406009
And also the fact that sometimes you want to recover from the divide by zero.
 
Did you really ask that? Socrates wants to have a word with you.
You're doing it wrong
 
you can't statically check program input
 
like here's one of my questions on unit testing: stackoverflow.com/questions/32131027/…
 
you need a time machine for that
 
2:55 PM
@KalaJ hehe. you have a collection of them?
 
yes :(
actually what I really have is a function called Terminate() instead of exit() that runs an infinite loop, that will throw a timeout error...?
 
@KalaJ are you seriously exit()ing in your embedded code
 
@KalaJ That answer is a bit confused. But you already answered your own question. So, go in peace, and sin no more
 
The embedded code has a terminate() (Instead of exit in that code) that will run an infinite loop
 
user406009
@KalaJ If you don't like exceptions hyc.io/boost/expected-proposal.pdf is a good alternative.
 
2:56 PM
@unordered_meow Theoretically you could
Well
 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ laffo
 
Not statically, but you could have the user only be able to enter a specific type of input
 
just not sure what to stub for terminate()????
 
user406009
Having a Result<Value, ErrorCode> class has been used to high success in both Rust and Haskell without needing exceptions.
 
and how test the conditions afterward
 
2:57 PM
2 mins ago, by unordered_meow
you can't statically check program input
 
without the program stopping at that condition
 
> statically
 
@KalaJ throw, or just have it assert(false) using your UT framework
 
throw for example divide by zero?
 
@unordered_meow laffo
 
2:58 PM
@Lalaland Erm, Haskell exceptions are pretty much a must-have.
 
@Lalaland He's doing embedded. FP/Maybe/Either monads are way out of his league now
@KalaJ this is getting a bit meta
 
Okay I edited my post to see what I'm really dealing with right now
I was initially thinking to stub terminate with exit(0) though but that's a bad idea?
1
Q: Testing conditions that exit the test

Kala JI have to test several routines/functions that have several if statements that leads to a terminate() or exit() statement that stops the test execution. I was wondering what's the best/correct approach in testing functions like this? For example, if I had something like the following: void ...

 
@ʎǝɹɟɟɟǝſ Well, you can't. If you have auto a = read<int>(std::cin);, then if I type asiofhadsiop you have a runtime error
 
Xeo
@unordered_meow Do I?
Who says read doesn't return optional<T>? :P
 
@Xeo I do :P
 
Ell
3:08 PM
@unordered_meow you don't have a runtime error
You have a blocking call which waits until an Int comes along :P
 
user406009
@Xeo No error codes for optional<T>. That why you need something like hyc.io/boost/expected-proposal.pdf
 
Xeo
That wasn't the question
 
Ell
I disnt know Haskell had exceptions
 
@Lalaland In most cases optional will do.
 
user406009
3:12 PM
I am just saying that optional<T> is less powerful than either exceptions or exit() as the following two allow useful error messages.
 
@Ell There’s two kinds, even! Synchronous and asynchronous.
 
Hey @AlexM. your city did a cool thing
Too bad you won't see this lel
 
Well, I’m really repeating myself here.
 
@Lalaland It's irrelevant.
Also it is also more powerful :P
You can't use exceptions to pass in... wait for it... optional arguments.
 
user406009
Lol.
 
3:15 PM
This day was way too long.
 
I like hyc.io as a domain name
 
Ell
I'm gonna research hasekll exceptiks
2
 
user406009
@Griwes Puppy (I think) actually had a trick for using exceptions as an alternative for passing in callback functions.
 
user406009
Supposedly it was useful for binding variables to C callbacks.
 
@Mgetz lol. I wonder how big is the carrot they show to the coders. :D
 
3:31 PM
@sehe Donald Trump is America's message to the world: "See? We could be really crazy if we wanted to be. Current foreign policy is us being nice!"
 
Also, the most important news of today: I had to loosen my belt by one notch.
@Jeremy Donal Trump is like our president Miloš Zeman. Total nutjob.
 
user406009
He just demanded $10 million for appearing in the next debate.
 
user406009
Looks like I need to add another line to:
 
@nabijaczleweli .io domains cost like $30.
 
user406009
3:34 PM
 
@wilx His daughter is quite easy on the eyes, though.
...though I'm not sure why her picture is linked in his Wikipedia page.
 
@Jeremy Marion le pen is hotter
 
@Nooble I know, I was just pointing that out from a link someone posted
 
@nabijaczleweli Nick.io
 
Because "hyc" means sth in polish
 
3:52 PM
@Mr.kbok People have to have principles, though.
 
Hm.
Is there any way to make this work?
Seems like I can't access the privates of another instance if their template parameters differ.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Of course not. They're different classes.
 
Yeah, it makes sense when you see it that way, but it's not really intuitive.
 
user1804599
> rm.exe has stopped working
 
user1804599
4:03 PM
> tr.exe has stopped working
 
user1804599
> cat.exe has stopped working
 
nvm he edited
 
@EtiennedeMartel friend?
 
I don't see a way of saying "all versions of me are my friends" without getting an error.
 
Can you template friend-decls?
 
4:06 PM
@EtiennedeMartel i is always int?
 
@EtiennedeMartel template<typename> friend class C;? (link)
disclaimer I'm not really sure I'd do this
 
It's always a pain to get the template friend syntax right.
 
user1804599
It's always a pain to write C++ code.
 
@AndyProwl Cool.
 
yes that's the answer
 
4:10 PM
@AndyProwl It’s how you implement e.g. the conversion from optional<int> to optional<long>.
 
syntax is a pain
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Huh?
 
@LucDanton is it done that way for max efficiency?
 
@Xeo Substitute the member function with a special member!
@AndyProwl I wouldn’t know.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Everything you need from optional is public though...
 
4:13 PM
I don't understand why is that necessary either
 
> .XXX as low as $84.89/year
Expensive
 
@Xeo I check preconditions in the public stuff, I do raw calls when implementing other stuff.
 
Xeo
@LucDanton Ah, I see.
 
user1804599
@Lalaland you can't make a language type safe until you define at what level of type safety something is type safe.
 
user1804599
4:14 PM
Type safety is a scale, not a Boolean.
 
Or I should say, those other things did their own check already.
 
4:28 PM
they'll never be as good as us
 
The poll is finished! Here is the summary of the results, and here are the actual responses.
 
whew, I replied just in time
 
Cool let's settle the date now
 
I forgot to submit :(
 
You're banished
 
4:38 PM
The world is out of control. Is seems that my highest-scoring answer is on a tag for a language I have never used, (a cross-platform. GC, JIT high level language).
 
@ʞɔᴉN I reopened it -_-
Please make it quick.
 
The world is out of control. Everyone's doing javascript
 
JavaScript is the programmer equivalent of metastases
 
Mwahahaha I know that was you @Mr.kbok.
 
[9:38:46 AM] Skorezore: NICK
[9:38:49 AM] Skorezore: VOTE FOR ONE WEEK
nooble is trying to influence my decision
 
4:39 PM
What... No.
Those clearly weren't from me.
 
@Nooble Are you using that secret superpower chrome extension
 
@Mr.kbok Yeah.
Doesn't work on firefox for me.
 
That's cheating
 
Oh :(
 
You're banished too
 
4:40 PM
@ʞɔᴉN Actually even then...
It's still a 6 vs 6
 
i submitted
 
How should I view the votes?
 
subjectively
 
Should I just pick the ones with the highest percentage or try to strike a balance?
 
Dunno why would you even collect negative votes
 
4:43 PM
@CatPlusPlus Negative?
I'm not sure what that means.
 
@Nooble Look at the data then decide arbitrarily what you like best
 
@Mr.kbok Lol.
Well, I think it's settled. 2 weeks and 3-5 hours.
 
cool
 
3 - 5 = 2 hours right.
Since a lot of people voted for 6 to 11, I'll interpret 3 to 5 as 5.
 
4:50 PM
Let's make a marmalade twitter account
wait I have a better idea
let's get shitfaced in the swimming pool
see you guys
 
The Second Great Lounge Game Marmalade starts in two weeks! That's the 4th of September, from 1700 to 2200 UTC.
@Mr.kbok But there's already a marmalade room.
 
user1804599
ok
 
user1804599
no need to shout
 
@elyse What did you say?! I can't hear you!
 
user1804599
THAT YOU MUST SHUT UP
 
4:54 PM
It's a Friday??
 
@slaphappy No, it's Wednesday.
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion Please help me; I need a budget.
 
My calendar says it's a friday
 
@elyse what
 
user1804599
 
4:57 PM
I figured.
Had to see how poor I still am
 

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