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Xeo
5:00 PM
@Mysticial Obviously the bottleneck is UB. Pairing new with free :P
 
@Jefffrey done
 
Thanks
 
@BartekBanachewicz the autosaves sure, but when you manually save you name it (or use same as last time)
 
No rules then?
 
user1804599
Don't save.
 
5:00 PM
Don't shave.
 
Ell
Is it bad to give out my IP here?
 
hmm... drop box was handy as I had that symlinked (I was playing over two machines)
 
I wonder if I should order the ubuntu phone this month
if I like it a lot I can sell my htc to get the investment back or more
 
@thecoshman you can symlink gdrive as well
 
¬_¬ I said 'around 7gmt' for a reason
@BartekBanachewicz yeah, but I have to set that up :P
 
5:02 PM
lol "set up"
 
@Xeo Looks like I'm going to need to do some sort of a "small string" optimization for this. Clearly this isn't gonna work. :)
 
user1804599
> Shocking ‘Game Of Thrones’ Finale Concludes With Arrest Of 5 Million Viewers For Piracy
 
it's literally installing one app.
 
Fuck that, use the web interface
 
Ell
@rightfold really?
does anyone want to play now?
 
5:02 PM
I have been meaning to get a hingy for pulling grive to a local folder...
 
Ell
I can host
 
user1804599
 
Ok, where do I connect
 
> theonion.com
 
@Ell yes, but I have dinner to sort out, that's why I said 7 ¬_¬
 
5:03 PM
@Ell I'm in
 
Ell
@thecoshman can we start without you? :P
 
Shit, I have to order pizza
 
of course you can vOv
how are resources shared in multiplayer then? kinda like MC I presume...
 
Ell
^this is my ip
password is my first name then second name :P
you know what
it probably doesn't even matter if I post my IP
 
> It either never existed or has already been viewed.
 
5:06 PM
@Ell o_0 it shows nothing...
 
Ell
there we go :P
oh wait I might have to port forward
someone attempt it anyway?
 
almost certainly :P
 
> Couldn't establish network comunication with server
 
@Ell why don't you use keybase :P
 
Ell
idk what keybase is :L
 
5:08 PM
@Ell ... what's the second?
 
Ell
@thecoshman it's okay nvm, ip is in imgur link above
potts
 
@Mysticial What is this from? and what profiler is that
 
Ordered pizza :3
 
@Ell oh year
 
@Borgleader Intel's profiler
 
5:09 PM
sort out that forwarding would you!
 
I wonder if I'm supposed to play with you right now
 
@Borgleader I'm building a library around my Pi program's internals.
Internally, the objects are bare-metal with no RAII. So I built a wrapper class with proper RAII so it's easy to use. And that was the result.
 
@BartekBanachewicz I just want to sort out getting connected, I'll join later
also, what you using for voice?
 
Ell
okay
try now?
 
all peers left :\
can't connect :\
 
Ell
5:11 PM
it's uploading to someone vOv
 
default port?
 
@Mysticial Neat, I'll give it a whirl when its ready :)
 
@Borgleader Don't hold your breath.
 
Ell
@thecoshman yeah
 
5:12 PM
The way it's going, it's totally not gonna work out.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial I don't quite get how the RAII wrapper kills your performance so hard.
 
@Xeo Because C++'s 0 overhead promise is a lie har har har har har
 
Xeo
I think he's just doing something wrong. :P
 
Ell
Maybe compiler isn't optimizing enough?
 
@thecoshman they're afraid of talking
maybe C++ is just shit
 
5:14 PM
@Xeo The object is a large number object. Every time you create one, it does a memory allocation - regardless of how small the number is.
 
@BartekBanachewicz ffs ¬_¬
maybe a 'voice chat only' game should be held :P
@Ell downloooooding
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Okay. So how is it fast without the wrapper?
 
Ell
I could talk
 
Ell
but my headset has a buzzy noise
 
5:15 PM
StackOverflow featured the 170+ score question on facebook (haskell, no answers)
 
what's talk key?
 
The lua console key
 
> OMG ... I've been a professional developer for 18 years, and I don't even understand the question!
 
Look it up in "Controls"
 
... that's not perma death is it?
 
Ell
5:16 PM
Okay well @thecoshman is playing FFA apparently.
 
vOv nah, just the one :P
 
Ell
@thecoshman it's perma lose your inventory :(
 
had to test
 
Ell
 
oh.. I dropped :\
 
5:17 PM
@Xeo The only implementation I have without the wrapper is y-cruncher itself which takes 1.166 seconds. The test implementation using the wrapper class needs 12 seconds. Granted it's not an entirely fair comparision.
 
oh no
 
maybe we could write a mod that tracks people online
could be useful
 
Xeo
@Mysticial What exactly does the wrapper do?
 
ruin performance
 
Xeo
lol
 
5:18 PM
@Ell Nobody signed those rules
:c
 
@Xeo The wrapper takes ownership of the pointer to the memory where the number resides. The bare metal object doesn't own the memory - so there's no allocations at all.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Okay, so who ownes the memory in the bare-metal version?
(also, maybe you need some move-semantic action going on to transfer ownership?)
 
@BartekBanachewicz @Ell so skype later when we want to play?
 
Ell
@thecoshman let's try not shooting me this time eh? :P
 
@Xeo Global scope. y-cruncher allocates one massive chunk of memory at the beginning and reuses it for everything. The bare metal object merely point to parts of it.
 
Xeo
5:20 PM
@Mysticial kay. why not reuse that design?
 
hmm, where's everyone?
 
@Xeo The bare metal object is very hard to use and error-prone. Not suitable as a library.
 
Ell
@milleniumbug I think we are on different versions o.O
try disconnecting and reconnecting?
it did something dodgy and coshman dropped
 
@Ell mine is 0.11.22 (build 14011)
 
Xeo
provide allocator support, so you could inject a pool allocator, or an allocator that uses part of a large chunk
 
5:21 PM
@Ell I quit, I was only on to test connection
 
Ell
@milleniumbug sorry, I meant different games
I am on with jeffrey currently
 
ok, reconnecting
 
Ell
oh he just left
I had to reload from the version we had like 3 minutes ago
 
oh you were there?
 
Ell
so apologies for lost progress
@Jefffrey yah
 
5:22 PM
Ow
 
@Xeo That's for later. I'm gonna see if I can get something even remotely performant out-of-the-box.
 
currently I'm figuring out the structure of the factory
 
Xeo
@Mysticial But you do have move-semantics going?
 
@Xeo Yes.
 
@milleniumbug terrible :P
 
Xeo
5:22 PM
@Mysticial k
 
I vote for adding the rule "don't fuck up trains if you don't know what you're doing" to the list
 
Ell
+1
 
That's included in #3 no?
 
Ell
this map takes ages to upload
 
So, do you agree by the rules? @Ell @BartekBanachewicz
 
5:25 PM
@Xeo The test code right now is to compute e to 10 million digits without the base conversion. The test code with the RAII objects needs about 50 million allocations. y-cruncher's implementation needs less than 10. Probably none on the critical path.
 
Ell
@Jefffrey mostly
 
@Jefffrey mm kinda
 
Ell
the host isn't necessarily the person last online
 
I agree with the rules
 
Ell
he is responsible for getting most recent save
but not doing the last one
 
5:26 PM
@Ell that's the point of #2
> retrieve the most recent save
 
Ell
> remember to replace it with the new one when everything has ended
 
it doesn't say "his most recent save"
it says "most recent save"
 
wtf can't see anything
 
Ell
right.
That isn't my point
 
Xeo
@Mysticial oh wow.
 
Ell
5:26 PM
my point is, what if the host goes to bed while other people continue playing?
 
How do you think it should be reworded to?
 
Ell
@milleniumbug yeah appears to have crashed for me
 
Xeo
@Mysticial sounds like you could use a pool to get that down a looot
 
wait who's hosting
 
ell
 
5:27 PM
@Xeo Yeah. I'm pretty sure a "small number optimization" will eliminate at least 90% of the allocations.
 
oh, it's p2p
 
Xeo
that too
 
@Ell must clearly pass over responsibility to someone else
 
Ell
yeah it's p2p
I think it crashed >.<
I will quit and try again
 
@ell how shitty is your computer?
 
Ell
5:28 PM
okay try again
meh, not shitty
 
@Ell But you connect to a specific host though
Which is the host for that match
No?
 
Ell
@Jefffrey yeah but once you are connected to the game, the host isn't required any more
 
@Jefffrey that's only to get into the 'swarm'
 
Ell
once you guys have connected, I can leave and you can continue to play
 
@Ell so what?
 
5:29 PM
Nice
 
Ell
that's what happened with bartek and you and I the other day
 
AFAIK I could also be open, then, if me an ell are connected to same game, you could use either our ips to join the game
 
Well, someone has to have the responsibility to put the new most recent world back
 
it only matters when starting
 
Ell
@BartekBanachewicz it matters when ending
 
5:29 PM
no.
 
Ell
the last player online (not necessarily the host) has to upload the recent save
 
@BartekBanachewicz for putting the game back for someone else to start next time
it's like a library :P
 
I assumed autosave/autoupload vOv
 
So how would you word it?
 
@BartekBanachewicz but that could result in nearly 15 minutes of game play being lost, and some people might want to turn that off
 
5:30 PM
@Xeo The bare metal design in y-cruncher was originally to get around the old thread-unsafe memory allocators. Even when thread-safe allocators became common, I kept that design anyway for other reasons. Now it's clear that the benefits are even more far reaching, lol.
 
@Jefffrey someone must be clearly designated as the person to stay on last and take the 'final' game state.
 
Xeo
@Mysticial mh
yeah, not fucking with the free list is huge with many allocations, I guess
 
ok, I don't get it
 
@thecoshman I guess we could pass the responsibility by asking
Like the responsibility is of the one who starts, which can pass it to someone else if needed
 
> Uploading map (0 B, 0B/s)
 
Ell
5:32 PM
2a. Host retreives most recent version of the save. b. last player online must reupload most recent save at the end of the session
 
@Ell So that we avoid people suddenly exiting the game and leaving some poor bastard behind
 
Ell
@milleniumbug jefffrey is probably joining
I'm uploading the map to him
 
I am
30s
 
ah, that's "stop the world" action
they should improve these messages
 
Ell
I agree
 
5:34 PM
That autosave seems quick ell
Is it set to 2 minutes?
 
@Ell c. if you are not willing/able to upload the save, you must leave when the person who is responsible for it wants to leave
 
@Xeo Even in tests with a small number of allocations, the performance overhead is still around 50%. The reason is the page-commit.
 
Ell
@Jefffrey oh balls
I left it on the default :S
 
It's going to cause massive lag
 
First access to a page of memory will page-fault. The OS zeros it before it gives it back to the program.
 
5:35 PM
@Ell hece multiple people has 'gateways' would be good :\
 
Xeo
@Mysticial I see
 
@Xeo That problem is basically impossible to get around without pooling memory.
 
@milleniumbug
 
Xeo
@Mysticial Yeah, I can see that
 
Clearly you need to target TempleOS instead
 
5:36 PM
On disk, you can get around the zeroing with elevation. But in memory you can't at all without modifying the kernel.
 
It has no memory protection whatsoever :v
 
@ell are you down again?
oh no...
 
Ell
@thecoshman it's not me vOv
 
it's just a bit crap
 
Ell
you dropped
and @Jefffrey apparently
 
5:40 PM
everyone dropped for me
including "uknown username"
which I guess is cosh?
 
do I have to manually set my name?>
 
user1804599
@Mysticial make it a kernel module!
 
Should I reconnect?
 
@thecoshman It's in the settings, under "Others"
@Ell You might as well change the autosave period
While we are all out
 
Ell
thecoshman is back vOv
and milleniumbug
 
5:42 PM
nvm then
 
Ell
though
it appears to have crashed possibly again
@thecoshman was dropped again
@Jefffrey was dropped
and now it's uploading agian
 
to me
eta 2m
 
woop woop. got all my guild signatures, luckily some guy had 2 accounts
 
Ell
does anyone have a VPS?
we could run factorio in server mode and not bother with any of the stuff
 
There's server mode?
 
Ell
5:44 PM
it wouldn't need good internet because the server just needs to save every 15 minute
 
fyi, boilers it's best to have two lines of 5 engines and 7 boilers with a shared pump
 
Ell
@Jefffrey kinda
 
I have one, but I don't think Factorio can run headless
 
Ell
it can
actually
only in 0.12.0 and it's experimental so
 
@Ell I do, but would have to wait for me to sort it out
 
Ell
5:44 PM
until then
 
Oh, it's not our ver
So whatever
 
We could also buy a linode server and pay like 3$ a month each
 
hahahaha the wall of encore deals
 
user1804599
not worth it
 
user1804599
you'll stop playing after like three days
 
Ell
5:46 PM
^
 
@Jefffrey Or 3$ total if you don't run it 24/7 like scrubs
 
I'll sort out my forwarding... hopefully I can host it more stably than ell
 
No, really, get an instance
 
effort
 
@Mysticial template the allocator.
 
5:48 PM
¬_¬ that said, my router config page seems to have died on me
 
You can use Google Compute Engine's free trial.
 
@TBohne Custom allocator support is coming much later.
 
@Mysticial Sorry, I just followed the chain farther back. I got it
 
jefff and coshman dropped
 
I'm hoping to get something that can reach at least half the performance of y-cruncher out-of-the-box without the user needing to do anything fancy. Longshot though...
 
5:50 PM
That's what I saw before quitting
 
How does it work? Does everyone need to forward ports?
 
Yes, probably
 
@Mysticial I had a similar issue and made a C++ allocator where the caller manually allocates a buffer (stack or heap, whichever), and then uses allocators that draw from that pool single pass with no deallocation. For my node-based stuff that's create-then-read-only, it's awesome. Also, basically allows me to make bigger SSO buffers for strings.
 
@milleniumbug no
 
v0v It always worked fine with ell and bartek
 
Ell
5:52 PM
@Jefffrey hmm
 
@Katt I asked corefx to merge units :)
 
Ell
Also I just realised a problem with my oil setup :S
 
user1804599
I could create a thread and a timer for each NPC.
 
user1804599
Or one global timer.
 
btw if you're dropping then you have to increase latency
 
user1804599
 
If it's lower than slowest player then you'll desync
 
@Ell cough
 
Ell
Currently it tries to create as much petrolium as possible
 
@CatPlusPlus ah interesting
I've always kept it on 99ms
 
Ell
so you can only get light oil & heavy oil if you have somewhere to put the petrolium which would be produced alongside with that stuff
 
5:59 PM
Wonderful world of P2P lockstep
 
I think I found one (big) problem. The wrapper object was incorrectly calculating the size of the allocations. It was overshooting by quite a bit.
Let's see if this makes it any better.
 
Also buy Sniper Elite 3 so we can play sniper wars
 
@Ell What's the status?
 
Ell
which means creating lubricant & flamethrower fuel will be harder than other stuff
 

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