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8:00 PM
@Ell I would argue that nobody's hiding anything. Java's . now just does the same thing -> would do with pointers in C.
 
there's absolutely no reason to try to make C++'s . work like Java's . since they are different things and C++ already possesses the exactly equivalent ->.
and trying to pretend that . and -> are the same thing is just crazy.
 
user1804599
In Go . does both and it works very well.
 
user1804599
Nice.
 
> Go
> works very well
that doesn't compute
 
@рытфолд Brussels? Isn't that in Belgium?
 
8:09 PM
don't remember where fightrold lives but it's somewhere aroudn there I think
 
I asked for a card game about exploding help vampires.
 
user1804599
@EtiennedeMartel Yes.
 
user1804599
It's nearby, unlike Los Angeles.
 
@рытфолд Well, I'm closer to LA than Brussels, I think.
 
user1804599
Yeah, but I don't care about you going to FOSDEM.
 
8:11 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Try to avoid both.
 
You could argue that LA is also in Belgium.
 
user1804599
lol my friend met stallman at fosdem
 
did he punch him in the face?
if not that's a tremendous waste
 
Ell
why would you punch him in the face?
 
GPL
 
Ell
8:19 PM
Would you punch bill gates in the face? :P
 
In case anyone gets misled, week return in June LAX<>BRU in June is about £583.80.
 
user1804599
Emacs is good though.
 
nah
bill gates only asks for my money
and even then not often.
 
Ell
Stallman doesn't ask for money
stallman doesn't ask for anything
 
no, he wants something much more valuable
ALL MY FUCKING CODE
 
Ell
8:20 PM
if you want the same use case as windows for example
 
I just figured out that lambdas are not closures, yet they are often mistaken as the same
 
Ell
@Puppy if you're a developer using a gpl library maybe
 
also
I got Windows for free.
and VS for free.
and I'mma get Windows 10 for free.
so, y'know
 
Ell
a user of a gpl software gets more freedom than a user of a windows software
 
the freedom to give up all his own code
 
8:20 PM
@Puppy MSDN AA?
 
Ell
what code?
I don't have to give up code to use gcc
I don't have to give up code to use emacs
I don't have to give up code to use linux
etc. etc.
 
that's true
 
Ell
Just like you don't for windows, visual studio, etc.
 
but you also gain nothing from their GPL'ed nature really
 
Ell
if want to modify linux, I have to give up code
if I want to modify windows... I can't
@Puppy that's fine, if you don't think it's worth it just don't use gpl
but you don't need to hate it on it like it's evil
 
8:22 PM
oh I really do.
 
Ell
it's less "evil" than any windows programme, or typical similar licenses
 
"Just don't use GPL" sounds like fine advice
the problem is that everyfucker on Earth has to make their own code GPL just because they depend on GPL'd code.
so if you're not into GPL, then you're fucked.
 
user1804599
Good Public License
 
Ell
@Puppy But they evidently are?
 
there's nothing "free" about GPL.
 
Ell
8:23 PM
if they're not into gpl, they won't use gpl libraries
 
that assumes that they have much of a choice in the matter.
 
Ell
Who doesn't have the choice?
 
see, everything is so simple when you make games with unity
you only use what you wrote or what is in the asset store
 
Apple literally wrote Clang just because GCC was GPL.
 
no licensing crap
 
8:24 PM
@Ell People needing specialized libraries, whose authors were braindead and published their code as GPL.
 
Ell
@Puppy I hope you realised they did that by choice?
 
lol
 
Ell
@Griwes they aren't forced to use the library
 
@Ell LOL.
 
no, they did it because they didn't want to deal with GPL by using GCC.
 
Ell
8:25 PM
@Puppy right
they don't like the gpl, they don't have to use it
 
@Ell Yeah, sure. Just rewrite a thing you don't know the internals of.
Great plan!
 
and therefore they had no choice but to expend vast sums of money on Clang.
 
Jesus.
 
@Ell You don't have to use it, you just have to pay incredibly large sums of money to completely replace it.
 
Ell
@Puppy if they had no choice, then they would have used the gpl code
 
8:26 PM
You are a living proof that most advocates of GPL are braindead.
@Ell :/
I give up.
 
Ell
If you can't afford the cost of something, jsut don't buy it
how about that?
is that so insane?
 
yes, it is.
it is insane.
 
@Ell But GPL is supposed to be "free"!
 
at least Microsoft owe you support for your money
 
Too bad stallman doesn't understand that "free (like a beer)" is the only relevant meaning of the word that exists (in relation to software, that is) :/
 
8:28 PM
let me put it this way
imagine if food was a million pounds a day.
if you can't afford it, don't buy it, right? you have a free choice here.
 
Ell
right
 
no, wrong.
the people charging a million pounds a day should be lynched.
 
Ell
I just get the food from somewhere else
forage for it myself vOv buy it off a different competitor
 
there are no competitors.
 
@Puppy I don't think Ell understands what we are talking about.
 
8:29 PM
and also I highly doubt that you have sufficient skill to simply forage food for youreslf.
 
My grammar skills are non-existent today.
 
you have no idea what around you is actually edible, you have no skills, and no tools.
 
Ell
I grow my own vegetables :P
 
that is not going to feed you during the winter.
 
Ell
brussel sprouts practically require frost
 
8:31 PM
@Ell Please stop being an egoistic moron :/
 
permissive is less evil than gpl is less evil than proprietary
 
good luck surviving for several months on nothing but a few sprouts
 
Ell
@Griwes I will
 
@Pris Proprietary is way less evil than GPL.
 
Ell
@Puppy I seriously don't understand how you can think this
If you want them for the same thing, they are equivalent
if you just want to use some software, gpl vs proprietary doesn't matter
And because that's all you can do with (most) proprietary software, they will always be the same when you compare them to each other
 
8:32 PM
well that's not quite true
if you buy VS and then you complain on VS, Microsoft at least take the effort of WONTFIXing it
 
Ell
you can't alter windows because it's against the license, you can't alter linux because the cost is too high
 
I very much prefer "non-free" (aka blobs) libraries over GPL libraries.
 
Ell
is the latter more evil than the first?
 
with LLVM they just say "Patches welcome"
 
Because, you know, I'm never going to touch GPL in my life.
 
8:33 PM
and I didn't even have to pay with all my own code to use that shit
 
Ell
@Griwes Libraries, I understand are different
 
That would make my software NOT free.
Repeat after me: software licensed under GPL is NOT free.
 
@Puppy I think we had this conversation before and I disagree. I don't think either of us will change our minds. :p
 
Ell
gpl requires you to make your changes available right?
 
at least we can agree that permissive is the the best
 
8:34 PM
and also any code you write that links to it
 
Ell
In VS, you can't make a change. In gpl you can make a change at the price of making that change public
in both cases you can ask someone else for a fix
 
@Ell Well, actually, I can write a VS extension and it's completely free- really free, not GPL-style "We claim it's free but really we ask the highest possible price"
in fact I have such an extension although it's probably long broken by now
 
Ell
Okay, you can write an extension
 
user1804599
hair extension
 
Ell
it's not the same thing as altering vs itsself though is it?
 
8:37 PM
How much is this true?
My point is C++ syntax doesn't guarantee things about values of variables, such guarantees inherently deal with the language's semantics. — Alexei Averchenko 18 mins ago
 
@Ell No, not really.
 
Ell
My point is, that from an end user perspective, GPL is equivalent or more free than "proprietary"
I understand that libraries are different
 
yes, and that's the main thing that I'm talking about.
 
-33
Q: Why all the StackExchange sites when everyone just asks on StackOverflow anyway?

Neil LunnTo me this just doesn't make sense or really in the inverse it does make sense but it just doesn't seem to be adhered to in any way. The objective here seems to be to spawn off another StackExchange site in order to keep the "domain" topics "on-topic" for a particular subject. I think this is ri...

Why all the StackExchange sites chatrooms when everyone just asks on StackOverflow in Lounge<C++> anyway?
 
from an end user perspective GPL is fine, except that the developers are all starving because they have no income and they have no time to work on the project because they have to work as bus drivers to feed themselves
 
8:41 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ IMHO he is right, syntax has nothing to do here.
 
My answer was BTW:
@AlexeiAverchenko "Do you understand the difference between syntax and semantics?" Usually, yes I do. Maybe it's just not clear for me what's making the difference with your samples? "but in principle nothing is stopping GC from preempting the program and then walking its stack changing pointer values," I've got serious doubts about this (and even, if it's worth it). Usually address values obtained at compile time could be assumed not to change at run time. Did I miss something actually (by means of c++ standard guarantees)? — πάντα ῥεῖ 5 mins ago
 
Ell
@Puppy Most GPL developers just work in their free time
 
personally I prefer the idea of getting paid for my development time
 
Ell
most of them do that too
like I said, free time
it's not free time if you're getting paid :P
 
well, that's the whole point.
my time isn't free
and nor should it be
 
Ell
8:44 PM
Nobody's time is free
 
@πάνταῥεῖ For example, syntax doesn't prevent you from writing this = nullptr;, but it definitely prevents you from writing this = $@42123#$@;.
 
Ell
these people do it because they want to
 
what do you guys think in general about the enforceability of the gpl
 
Ell
it's enforceable
 
it seems like only large companies actual have the legal means to take action though
 
8:45 PM
I'd prefer it if they did it because they had an obligation to fix their bugs and they actually had time in which to do it
 
Ell
the FSF has funds to deal with people breaking it
 
user1804599
I love Perl.
 
the FSF helps out pretty much no one though; take a look at the GPL violations mailing list some time
what do you all think about software patents
 
Ell
Not sure yet
I disagree with them instinctively
 
I agree with the core motive behind them (that inventors should get paid for their work)
I disagree with the system they've turned into
I'm not sure what alternatives there are if we don't simply publicly fund invention.
 
Ell
8:50 PM
haha
 
'alternatives'
how about simply not disclosing source
 
not sure if superior
 
Ell
@Pris this is my thinking
 
i think p much every software patent ive read is only there to extort other people who end up doing something similar, and prevent others from competing with you
 
Ell
I do think patents generally are anti competitive
 
user1804599
8:54 PM
Patents are good.
 
@рытфолд because?
 
user1804599
dunno
 
user1804599
I wish I had some.
 
@Ell "I do think patents generally are anti competitive" I disagree. Patents have just to be done right and worth it. It's more of the competence of the various patent offices to do this job right (and not just feed the patent trolls)
 
user1804599
Hmm.
 
user1804599
8:59 PM
Joy is a programming language that supports only point-free style.
 
user1804599
You can't name parameters.
 
fuck
only fixed 9 tests.
 
@рытфолд So, it's pointless then?
 
This whole room of people is one Excel spreadsheet. Imagine all the middle-class unemployment Excel created http://t.co/3tbWwv5zBh
Not sure what to think. Wouldn't be the first time historical misinformation was popularized on twitter/tumbler/whatnot
 
user1804599
In Perl 6:
 
user1804599
9:06 PM
my &mean = { .elems R/ [+] .values };
say mean (1, 3, 5, 7);
 
user1804599
wow
   much tacit
 so point-free
 
@sehe That said, I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.
 
Now. That's constrained C++ programming youtube.com/…
 
256 flash and 16 RAM?
That's a lot of flashes and rams.
 
Bytes.
 
user1804599
9:11 PM
16B RAM :(
 
I think that's ultra cool. A lot cooler than Perl6
 
user1804599
dat dutch accent
 
Tenenkrommend
 
lolwut 16B RAM? Even Atari 2600 had more.
 
Duh. Atari cost more than $0.28 and was a bit bigger
 
9:13 PM
@milleniumbug KB? 16 bytes is too poor :P
 
Ell
@sehe seriously?
 
user1804599
maaaaacro
 
Ell
bytes? o.O
I'll google it
 
@Ell do I look like I'm joking?
 
Ell
@sehe it just seems so unbelievable :p
 
9:17 PM
I think it's nice to remember what you actually can do with little means
 
@Ell How many bytes do you think you need to control a toaster?
 
Ell
depends, what's the clock speed? :p
 
Ell
if it's 1/60Hz then maybe 3 :P
1 even
 
@MartinJames zero. Make that analogous
 
9:20 PM
holy fuck I never appreciated how difficult it would be to debug my new design.
 
Ell
what is your new design?
 
user1804599
@Puppy maybe it's a sign that your new design is terrible
 
it's a tree of functions that are lazily evaluated
the problem seems to be that I have employed new lazy nodes fucking everywhere and it's impossible to tell what the fuck is going on.
 
user1804599
Does Boost.Lexical_Cast support Roman numerals?
 
@Puppy hehehe. luckily you made everything immutable and referential transparent, so you just ask Bartek and he'll untangle it in jiffy
 
Ell
9:26 PM
no eyed dear
 
Yes. It doesn't (what would be the type)?
No. It does. If you use a UDT for roman numerals that is streamable.
 
@sehe A le jiffy.
 
user1804599
@sehe who needs types
 
what's clear is that I've seriously overused my old friend, CreateResultExpression.
 
@рытфолд the compiler does; as well as lexical_cast which is a function template (parameterized by... a type!)
 
user1804599
9:28 PM
boost::lexical_cast<int>(string, {boost::lexical_cast_format::roman_numerals})
 
@рытфолд is that a feature of the library? I've clearly remembered that Boost Lexical Cast, at /all/ times, preserves the behaviour of input/output streaming
 
user1804599
No.
 
Then why ask
 
user1804599
4fun
 
I'll laugh. Done.
 
user1804599
9:30 PM
I am suddenly reminded.
 
Good. It's not October yet though.
 
user1804599
lol
 
user1804599
When I was still in college.
 
user1804599
I walked on the train station.
 
user1804599
And some lady wanted to ask me something and I just said "no, go away" :P
 
9:31 PM
Thinking of Krupuk girl
 
user1804599
I was heavily confused that day.
 
@рытфолд what
 
Ell
@sehe dark :P
 
How so :)
 
user1804599
@sehe you must like this song: youtube.com/watch?v=Lrwc4YEYwl0
 
9:33 PM
lol
 
@рытфолд That's just terrible stuff (dunno if @sehe likes it or not) :-P ...
 
oh, he knows
 
@sehe I'm still a lame typer, forgive please!
 
user1804599
@sehe Ahem.
 
ding ding ding
 
@sehe I hope that's not the visualisation of your major perception of mine ;-). I'm loads more funny if called upon it.
 
ITT pantherey doesn't memes
 
@sehe No, I'm an old fart. I dunno well about known memes around. Seriously.
 
Me niether. I was rescholed in 2 years of lounge
 
9:43 PM
@sehe I'm a toddler at chat, forgive me :-P ...
 
 
user1804599
The US is an odd place - I've gone to college where students seem to show up to class in pajamas. That said, it would likely be frowned upon, and in all likelihood, the hotel staff might eventually tell you to put your clothes on. So to answer your question, most likely not, though nothing may come of it. — Melllvar yesterday
 
user1804599
What's odd about that? I did that too.
 
user1804599
Ugh stupid onebox fail.
 
user1804599
Pyjama master race.
 
9:50 PM
Though in some colleges you need to keep them pyjamas on (NSFW) dumpert.nl/mediabase/6637772/1b67601e/…
 
user1804599
I go to work in my pyjamas almost every day.
 
user1804599
They're so nice and soft.
 
user1804599
And warm.
 
user1804599
I do have a sweater over them though otherwise it just looks retarded.
 
user1804599
@sehe sehe de vieze oude man
 
9:52 PM
It was you who linked dumpert :) Also... you wear your pyjamas under your clothes. 'Nuff said
 
user1804599
dumpert is great.
 
user1804599
I never laugh as much as when I visit it.
 
@thecoshman No, why?
Hi.
I'm dying.
 
Ell
@R.MartinhoFernandes Don't do that, silly
 
I spent the whole day trying to sleep with a really bad cold. Fever, cold sweats, muscle pain, and dry coughs.
 

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