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Xeo
12:00 PM
> UnrealBuildTool: [7/173]
it's that time again...
 
shit there's too many polar bears
 
Xeo
@Ell Travel-to-past-and-stop-yourself-from-drinking-so-much-pasta
 
hm ok this thing works
I'm writing shitty code but whatever works
god it's so hard to force myself to that
I like momentarily think "wait this could be done differently"
 
@BartekBanachewicz Real code is ugly. It's time to end those irrealistic standards! :p
 
it's only ugly until I refactor
hmm what if I could normalize the texcoords automatically somehow
it could prove useful later anyway
 
12:04 PM
@BartekBanachewicz inb4 'it's stopped working!'
 
@MartinJames it compiles, so it works
 
@Daniel Please do not have any assumptions in mind,I know my answer is wrong for almost all architectures,BUT instead of blaming question for not providing architecture details everyone is blaming the answer here.I have already provided the simplest solution to question in my first comment to question itself. — Vagish 59 secs ago
rotflol
 
@milleniumbug lol, still rumblin on. That timing question is taking too much time.
 
Ell
I wish that pasta existed
 
Xeo
 
12:14 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes What about it?
 
Xeo
@Jefffrey It also doesn't take any input!
 
fromVertArrayIntoGlobal :: [Float] -> Action ()
fromVertArrayIntoGlobal xs = do
    m <- gets globalMesh
    m' <- fromVertArrayInto xs m
    modify $ \x -> x { globalMesh = m' }
hmpfh this is a little ugly abomination
 
user1804599
Does OData support dry run?
 
Xeo
m <- fromVertArrayInto xs =<< gets globalMesh or something similar?
 
user1804599
E.g. POST with immediate rollback.
 
12:16 PM
@Xeo It also doesn't return any value.
 
this is pretty much the result of dropping Lenses
 
Xeo
@Jefffrey It is a value. Same with getChar.
 
@Xeo the mere existence of this function is bad
 
@Xeo That value is deterministic anyway
 
it should just use a Lens
 
Xeo
12:17 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Why doesn't it?
 
@Xeo because @Jefffrey convinced me that I weren't using it enough to justify such a huge dependency
 
Ell
> When a Silicon Valley founder sends a woman reporter a gift basket with a dildo and K-Y jelly then doesn’t understand why it might be offensive
 
lol
 
it's a really simple thing, arguably
but I don't see a cleaner way to do it
I need to mutate the global cache
 
Xeo
@Jefffrey and getChar isn't?
 
12:19 PM
there's no use in wrapping it in nice words
 
Xeo
Same input, same output.
 
@Xeo Yes, I know what you mean.
And you know what I mean.
 
Actually I still don't get your gripe @Jefff
I was thinking about what you said
 
getChar >> (putStr . someFunc)
do you know what Char value will be passed to someFunc?
even knowing the full context of the program
 
And I've realized that there's no real difference between a graphics library with an IO-backed context for the draw callback and a library that produces a pure list of operations to be processed later in the IO backed context
If you'd show me the difference you perceive, I'd be very happy
 
12:23 PM
avoids monad stacks, keeps IO isolated, is more transparent (the pure part is totally transparent)
 
@Jefffrey both keep IO isolated.
And I haven't said anything about monad stacks. Both approaches can have monad stacks. They are absolutely irrelevant here.
 
I did
no they are not
 
um, they really are.
 
in your approach you use monad stacks to hide IO to the user
 
I don't have to.
I can just IORef shit I need.
 
12:24 PM
wut
 
I suppose it's a better solution because it's not using monad stacks right
 
what are you on about
IORef is irrelevant
 
STRef then
TVar
 
irrelevant
 
@Jefffrey I need state for the library. Either I use monad stacks of XRef
 
12:26 PM
you know the game is insane when someone makes an apache from scratch
 
@BartekBanachewicz and with a pure approach you don't need either
 
@Jefffrey how do you cache?
inb4 you don't.
 
you do
 
but that's a secret
 
12:27 PM
wait what
You have to use some mechanism for the state at some point - agreed?
 
no?
 
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
@Jefffrey how do you cache?
 
cache what
resources used?
VBOs?
 
@Jefffrey yes, you typically cache resources
@Jefffrey for example.
 
you can allow loading them at the beginning and then at every IO draw call, everything new is cached the moment you are allowed to use IO in that frame
 
12:29 PM
@Jefffrey how is the VBO id stored?
 
it's 1) irrelevant 2) extremely possible
@BartekBanachewicz in some internal data structure used only in the IO execution
 
2 mins ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
You have to use some mechanism for the state at some point - agreed?
 
state != data
 
someone hold me
 
state used in haskell context is State and derived to me
 
12:31 PM
Someone find a holding cell for Bartek
 
lol
 
@Jefffrey no, when I say state, I mean "an information the program is able to read and change during its execution"
When I mean State monad, I either write State or State
 
ok
are you nit picking on this because you don't have any other arguments or...?
 
@Jefffrey I'm not nitpicking; I'm just trying to show you that your panic escape from anything that has "state" in its name is futile and silly.
 
how so?
not everything is a monad
not everything needs State
 
12:34 PM
Because if you use OGL, you have to cache VBOs and textures, and if you have to cache you need state, and if you need state it doesn't really matter if it's a TVar or StateT
 
in fact plenty of languages do just fine without both
 
@Jefffrey examples?
 
@BartekBanachewicz it's a simple variable
I don't need either
 
@Jefffrey That's ReaderT TVar IO - I use that in potato
lol
 
imagine a run function that generates the initial state and calls itself recursively with the new state at every frame
there's no statet or tvar
 
12:35 PM
@Jefffrey you know that's precisely what State does right?
it's the same thing
 
@BartekBanachewicz that's nowhere near precisely what State does
 
except State actually is sane to use and composes nicely
 
State keeps state and may return something else
 
@Jefffrey have you looked at the implementation?
 
it returns a pair in its implementation
 
12:36 PM
have you looked at the state function?
 
there's no pair whatsoever here
and the new state is passed as an argument, not returned
 
@Jefffrey that's because your second type parameter is ()
If you consider only State a () then of course you can ignore the () value
 
why would I need to use state for this shit
why on earth
 
1 min ago, by Bartek Banachewicz
except State actually is sane to use and composes nicely
 
lol
 
12:37 PM
@Jefffrey because it's easier, lol?
 
not for me
lol
 
just because you haven't used it enough, I suppose
Hey, wanna see a pure example?
 
I don't care
 
I used a nice hoisting from StateT -> State instead of exposing modify recently
It was so much nicer
 
I'm sure
 
12:38 PM
@Jefffrey most importantly because of state trivial ability to lift functions a->a to State
 
You know it's time to abandon the discussion when someone claims that simple recursion is somewhat harder than using State
 
have a monadic computation? Here, here's a monad. Have a regular function? compose with state and you're done
 
and composes "less nicely"
 
@Jefffrey but it does, lol.
and you don't even allow me to demonstrate it
 
sure bartek
 
12:39 PM
okey, if you choose to be a closeminded ass then so be it
 
oh please, demonstrate
 
there's a difference between lack of understanding and ignorance
@Jefffrey join me
welp, can you, actually?
 
lol
yes, with random generators state is better
no shit
 
@Jefffrey wait, it's actually easier than recursion?
woah
 
yes, because you need to carry the state of the new generator?
duh
 
12:44 PM
9 mins ago, by Jefffrey
imagine a run function that generates the initial state and calls itself recursively with the new state at every frame
how's that different?
 
see the code editor
coderpad is beautiful btw
better than the editor we have at instaedu /cc @ScottW
 
@Jefffrey It's just like getChar, except no IO, and it gets all its properties from pure semantics and preserves them.
 
we don't even have a REPL
 
The only significant difference is that in getChar the implementation has the outside world grafted onto it on the other side.
 
probably the most important feature ever when teaching
 
12:49 PM
@Jefffrey imho you should back up a bit, slow down and understand the whole thing from ground up again, with practical usage.
it really works. And it really works really well in practical, real life scenarios.
 
yes, bartek, I just had a realization of what the difference between you and me is
 
But it doesn't have to. A program with getChar can be reasoned about just fine with an implementation that grafts a list on the other side instead of the outside world.
 
Ell
I cant tell if I'm hungry or about to chunder
 
you start with the idea of using lenses and state everywhere
i start with simple and use lenses and state only if absolutely necessary
 
what's "start with"?
I haven't used Lens when I was a beginner
 
12:50 PM
Whether there is an outside world there doesn't make the program any easier or harder to reason about.
 
"you start a project"
 
well, if I know I'm going to have nested data structures, using lens is kinda a no-brainer
 
@ScottW ?
A read–eval–print loop (REPL), also known as an interactive toplevel or language shell, is a simple, interactive computer programming environment that takes single user inputs (i.e. single expressions), evaluates them, and returns the result to the user; a program written in a REPL environment is executed piecewise. The term is most usually used to refer to programming interfaces similar to the classic Lisp machine interactive environment. Common examples include command line shells and similar environments for programming languages. == Overview == In a REPL, the user enters one or more expressions...
;)
 
@Jefffrey Also my functions that don't need state, don't use state. When I find that state is a good solution to a problem, I use State.
 
it's not 8am. liar
 
12:53 PM
Lens is really different because it could be a part of the language for all I care, it's so generic and useful
 
Ell
@LightnessRacesinOrbit yes it is
 
Ell
Please, if you're going to talk about non-us times, I'd like a disclaimer at the start of the message
Non us things trigger me
 
@Jefffrey it's simple only at the very beginning, but it's much harder to refactor or change later. If you're fluent with monads, writing out the monadic solution is as fast, and when you need to do anything more complicated it works because the operation gets formalized as a monad.
 
@Ell THE MOON
@Ell GOOD GOVERNANCE
 
Ell
12:55 PM
Ahhhh
 
@Ell TRUE FREEDOM
 
Just like making your structures functors helps others (because they can just fmap), making your computations monads does (becauase they can just >>=)
 
Ell
Muh freedum
 
@ScottW I've just read one of your comments on FB
I guess
but I use my facebook account only to connect with other uni students
lol
I prolly have 4 friends right now, and those are the ones I did the perl project with
 
user1804599
1:00 PM
My book has arrived!
 
that scared me
 
@Jefffrey also, I was wondering about your approach when it comes to graphics libraries. So, what you propose is GameState -> [DrawCommand] draw callback, that then gets executed in [DrawCommand] -> IO ()?
 
user1804599
> Perl programmers solve problems and get things done.
 
@BartekBanachewicz GameState -> Element and then Element -> IO ()
 
0
A: What am I photographing INSIDE my camera?

Lightness Races in Orbit The image was taken with the lens cap on What is the partial circle apparent in the bulk of the frame? It's the lens cap.

 
1:02 PM
@Jefffrey So the IO part is completely unstructured? it takes some input and then everything happens in IO?
 
yes
 
user1804599
@Jefffrey such composable wow many function much type equivalence
 
look at helm
 
and you're criticizing my design because... I separate IO more?
blink blink
 
user1804599
About that Java interop.
 
user1804599
1:03 PM
One major problem is that it allows access to resources such as the filesystem from anywhere.
 
user1804599
Instead of only from main.
 
user1804599
Also I had this wonderful idea.
 
@Jefffrey That arrowized-FRP engine? I thought you liked simple solutions
 
that API is one of the most beautiful Haskell APIs I've seen in a while
 
uhm, VC++ compiles this: auto l = std::lock_guard<std::mutex>{_mutex};. Dafuq is going on?
 
1:07 PM
I would basically redo the same, just with opengl, because their cairo implementation keeps segfaulting on me
 
user1804599
The most beautiful Haskell API I've ever seen was (&) :: a -> (a -> b) -> b.
 
user1804599
Fuck ($).
 
user1804599
@AndyProwl I always use decltype(_mutex).
 
auto m = std::mutex{} compiles too. Seems like VC++ doesn't care about the presence of a copy or move constructor as long as it can do copy elision
 
user1804599
And even then I find the duplication unacceptable.
 
1:08 PM
@райтфолд That's not what concerns me
 
VC++ doesn't care about anything, really.
 
The thing is not movable, it should not compile
 
user1804599
C++ desperately needs finally, scope or a mechanism for creating unnamed variables and inferring template class parameters. RAII-based scope guards are way too complicated and cumbersome at the moment.
 
I don't have problems with those
I do have problems when illegal code gets compiled, though
Now who knows if it's doing what I expect
 
@Jefffrey lol, so instead of using StateT IO, they use IO and pass the new state explicitely every time
 
1:10 PM
@BartekBanachewicz I have no idea what they do
 
@Jefffrey I've just read their code.
 
they probably use some monad stack too for Helm
or whatever their main monad is called
 
they don't. They pass that explicitely.
 
good
 
1:11 PM
point is that I never use that, so...
 
Boilerplate
 
@CatPlusPlus butt it simple
 
lol
 
"to protect you from the headache of game development provided"... by introducing headache of FRP
 
1:12 PM
never used anywhere
 
@райтфолд I think the duplication is easily removed with a small function template, if unique_lock is good enough
 
not even if you split signals explicitly
 
user1804599
 
user1804599
dat third comment troll lol
 
@Jefffrey from what I see Cairo's api is mostly stateless, so it's not really doing anything remarkable WRT State. With OpenGL it's much more shittier
 
user1804599
1:13 PM
@Jefffrey ewww
 
user1804599
importing everything from a module
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok
 
@Jefffrey meh, with Lenses and MonadState it's much clearer, especially if you stop writing such trivial samples
 
that will be the challenge I guess
 
step :: (Int, Int) -> State S
step (dx, dy) = do
    mx += 10 * realToFrac dx
    my += 10 * realToFrac dy
DANGER This example uses Lens and State. Be very careful when looking. Otherwise consider using two times longer boilerplate solution that's "simple"
 
1:15 PM
ooook
now you are being silly
see you guys later
 
@Jefffrey lol
yeah, better to pretend you're not writing imperative code with mutable state and live in a dream world
4
but I'm just passing data to functions! lmao
 
Irony poisoning :v
 
my imperative code with mutable state in Haskell it's still imperative and mutates state
 
I have boring things to do
Entertain me
 
trying to prove it doesn't is fucking silly
@CatPlusPlus I thought jefff did already
 
1:17 PM
No, that's boring
 
Wells are kinda boring too
 
Ell
I ate toast
 
Conbreadulation
 
Ell
That made me lol
 
1:21 PM
I've realized that the argument of a -> a vs State a is pretty much the same as new/delete vs std::vector
 
Not really
Explicit/implicit threading is not about correctness
 
neither is MMM vs std::vector about correctness, no?
 
Sure it is
new/delete is not exception safe
 
well my point is that people stick to the most primitive solutions and are afraid to go further
@CatPlusPlus bah well ok
 
Also it requires planning for all exits to not leak
 
1:23 PM
maybe that was a bad example
 
woops window fail
 
but in general until you get really fluent with the more complicated solution, you might often be reluctant to use it and consider it overcomplicated
I had this before with monads, of course. (and a lot of things in C++)
I suppose Jeff might be having the same.
 
user1804599
@csaintamant @nixcraft @bcantrill so ... the first step to nirvana is getting clients to use terminals instead of GUIs?
 
user1804599
If only. Shitty clients.
 
@BartekBanachewicz o_0 "the more complicated solution" is more complicated by definition, understanding it does not change the fact it is more complicated.
 
1:28 PM
@thecoshman yes. and? How does that conflict with what I wrote?
 
@BartekBanachewicz what fool takes a more complicated solution?
^ without a clear reason
 
More complicated does not mean less efficient
 
It's not more complicated
So the premise is wrong
 
fyi, that's as far back as I bother reading
so context I do not have
 
@thecoshman like, a more complicated problem?
maybe "complicated" was a wrong word, I should've used "complex"
 
1:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz if it's a 'more' complicated problem, then it is not the same problem so of course different problems require different solutions.
@BartekBanachewicz same effect really.
 
unless both solutions are trying to solve the same problem, comparing them is meaningless
 
whatever, you're blabbering nonsense
either read the discussion or I'm not going to bother to reply
 
@BartekBanachewicz yes, what is wrong with using a 'primitive' solution if it still solves the problem and is easier to understand?
 
@thecoshman harder to refactor and boilerplate, in this case
 
1:32 PM
Argh fucking keepalive
 
@CatPlusPlus I try, but it seems so futile
 
I lost connection to SSH while provisioning was underway
And now root has no password and other stuff hasn't been set up yet
 
@BartekBanachewicz I find it hard to see how the complexity of the solution affect that.
 
And I have no idea what's up
 
@thecoshman then read the discussion
 
1:34 PM
If anything, I'd find it easier to refactor something if the solution was easier, and really, it's the problem complexity that matters more
@CatPlusPlus start over vOv
 
VMware Tools should be able to reset root password
 
@BartekBanachewicz well I tried... but I going backwards, it quickly wanders of the complexity of solutions. The thing I responded to first was you seeming to say that people shouldn't worry about complex solutions as they can understand them eventually... which is true, but you should favour a solution that is easier to understand.
 
So maybe I won't have to
 
@CatPlusPlus sounds not good to me...
 
Otherwise it's setting up 25 servers again because there's no working API client aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanywhere
@thecoshman What does?
 
1:37 PM
@CatPlusPlus the hyper visor being able to just reset the root password
 
If rootfs is not encrypted then anything can do anything with the image
 
you want isolation both ways really.
@CatPlusPlus true...
huh... lost track of some mildly important documentation...
found it :D
everyone back to work
 
@thecoshman why?
I'm not going to use only primitive solutions just because they are easier to understand
shit I should change the renderer to batching now though
 
user1804599
I need a private PyPI repository.
 
Welp I broke SSH config
 
user1804599
 
@BartekBanachewicz ok, first, let's agree not to take any of this 'to the extreme' as that always makes things look bad, and of course, have some salt to hand. What you said sounded like you favour complex solutions for the sake of being complex. I am not saying stick to crude old fashioned ways of writing code for the sake of it, but you should favour solutions that are easy for others to pick up and work with. Of course, if you are writing code just for your self or tutorials or what ever, then sure.
 
@thecoshman for experienced others or for inexperienced others
 
@BartekBanachewicz :P
I don't think experience has much to do with it
 
'experienced' could mean "used raw pointers for years, why bother with smart pointers crap?"
I think you mean 'level of knowledge'
Either way, I'd aim for the middle ground.
 
1:56 PM
@thecoshman lol
that might mean "I'd not aim at all" because it will always be middle ground
 
@thecoshman For some data structures I implemented I use raw pointers, should I be burnt alive?
 
Debian stable strikes back
 
no, not aiming would be writing code just for you.
 
OpenSSH was too old and that's why my config failed
Ugh
 
@Rerito no, maybe, perhaps, depends.
@CatPlusPlus oh, fyi debian is code for 'shit was new ten years ago'
 

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