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user406009
7:00 PM
To be fair, surveys do seem to indicate that a very sizable number of people from the Middle East support Sharia law.
 
@Puppy voile not viol
 
@Puppy Roughly, "The Islamist totalitarism will take power in our country if we lose the war against it. If we lose, the veil will be forced on each woman, charia will replace our Constitution, and barbarity will install itself."
 
@Lalaland The question is whether they genuinely understand the alternatives
 
She's the leader of a major right-wing nationalist party in France, for the record.
 
user1804599
Partial classes are topkek.
 
user406009
7:01 PM
@Puppy Which is a good point.
 
She's not a "nobody". She represents the views of a sizeable part of the French population.
 
user406009
Democracy has sorta been a failure in Iraq.
 
@EtiennedeMartel more like she makes it
 
well
 
user406009
Democracy only works well when you can prevent the tyranny of the majority.
 
7:02 PM
if we allowed Islamic State to take over our countries, I'm not sure I disagree that the outcome would be highly undesirable and probably involve to at least some extend all of those aspects.
 
And the rest of the family is even worse...
 
user406009
> “A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.”
 
@ScarletAmaranth VC is very very very old
 
@Mr.kbok it's ancient tech
 
user406009
@Puppy Islamic State != Sharia Law
 
7:02 PM
very ancient.
 
user1804599
@Puppy I'd rather kill myself than live in such a place.
 
user406009
There are some similarities, but they are not exactly the same.
 
@Lalaland Really? I'm pretty sure that they enforce Sharia pretty hardcore.
 
> Initial release February 1993; 22 years ago
@ScarletAmaranth (from wikipedia)
 
@Puppy And that's why there's so many refugees running away from there.
 
7:03 PM
@Mr.kbok yey; it's as old as I am!
 
I cannot say that I blame them.
 
@Lalaland um, yes? That's kinda the point
 
if I was living under Islamic State or Assad, I'd book it for just about anywhere I could get to.
 
user406009
@Puppy This is the reason we should support refugees.
 
user406009
The refugees are fleeing because they hate the people in Syria.
 
user406009
7:04 PM
We don't need to worry about them joining ISIS.
 
@Lalaland also because war
 
user1804599
If I could be arsed, I'd support only refugees who behave themselves.
 
Also the refugees are actively harming ISIS by fleeing, since that means they no longer have to pay their taxes there.
 
user1804599
And, of course, if there is evidence that they are actually refugees, which as far as I am aware, is often not there.
 
user406009
@EtiennedeMartel Yep. A country is only as strong as its people.
 
user406009
7:06 PM
If we let the people leave, the country loses power.
 
@Elyse You're not aware of a lot of things then.
 
@Lalaland inb4 iron curtain
 
user406009
@Mr.kbok Well, Russia (and previously the Soviet Union) do become weaker when more countries are welcomed into the EU and Nato.
 
user1804599
EU must die.
 
I feel like rightfold gets all their political opinions from tabloids.
 
7:09 PM
@Elyse elyxit (looming threat of)
 
@EtiennedeMartel Yeah, right :D
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok :D
 
@Mr.kbok The compiler itself is actually much older than that. Visual C++ 1.0 used version 8.0 of the compiler. The compiler isn't quite as old as that might imply though: MS C 1 and 2 were actually the Lattice C compiler with Microsoft packaging. MS C 3 was the start of what led to the current MS compiler. It was publicly released around 1984 or 1985 if memory serves.
 
I'd be an anarchist if people (including me) could behave themselves.
But the world isn't an utopia so I'm not an anarchist.
 
user1804599
@Mr.kbok In fact, I have considered moving to the US&A if this shithole keeps existing.
 
7:10 PM
@Elyse And get shot by an angry white man with a gun?
 
user1804599
I believe Oregon and Washington have the least morons religious people.
 
Especially if you're trans, you won't stand a chance in the US.
 
user406009
@Elyse In particular, what don't you like about the EU that you think the US does correctly?
 
user559633
Yes, being shot by an angry white man with a gun is a fair representation of everyone's experience in the USA.
 
@Elyse Oh, there's a huge amount of hipsters there. You'd fit right in.
 
user406009
7:11 PM
The US is much more religious than most of the countries in the EU.
 
user559633
In fact, you're not allowed to drive until you've been in at least 3 mass shootings.
 
@tristan It does happen much more often there than anywhere else in the world.
 
user559633
~~*the flame that burns twice as bright...*~~
 
user1804599
@Lalaland More democracy.
 
I find it funny how you're all generalizing countries out right
 
user1804599
7:13 PM
Actual army. NL's doesn't even have tanks.
 
The US is pretty diverse and very different based on what part of it you live in
 
user406009
@Elyse You will find that individuals states in the US have a lot less power than the countries in the EU.
 
user406009
If anything, you as an individual or as a community have less of a voice.
 
Freedom Units!!!
 
@Elyse That's not a good thing
 
7:14 PM
@JerryCoffin Where was that Lattice compiler from then?
 
user1804599
@Puppy Eh, no, wat.
 
@Elyse lolwat
 
@Elyse The US have a borked electoral system.
 
user1804599
You need sufficient resources to be able to protect yourself from foreign threats.
 
@EtiennedeMartel So does pretty much all of Europe.
@Elyse Tanks won't help with that anymore.
 
7:15 PM
@Puppy I'm just saying the US isn't better than EU.
 
fair enough.
 
@Elyse You got a great navy, which is a pretty important deal considering you're literally living under the sea.
 
@EtiennedeMartel lol
 
I don't think that the US system is especially more fucked than the EU
 
user559633
Depends where you are in the US. I love parts of the US and the EU. Oh shit, I'm doing this incorrectly by not widely generalizing
 
user406009
7:16 PM
@Puppy For some reason, it seems like we get the crazier politicians in the US.
 
to put it bluntly, that's because US voters as a whole are crazier.
 
user406009
We also seem to have a lot more pandering to religion in the US as well.
 
Or maybe because the US allows true freedom of speech
So the crazy voices aren't muted immediately
 
user1804599
I have also considered Australia but eek killer wasps.
 
user559633
Huge heterogenous population, so in order to be notable, which is needed for name recognition on a ballot, as a politician, you have to play to the extremes.
 
user406009
7:18 PM
@Elyse You could join telkitty!
 
most of Europe has perfectly good freedom of speech
 
user1804599
@Lalaland No, I'm not moving to an even shittier shithole like China.
 
we're just not stupid enough to listen to crazy people, as much.
 
user406009
@Elyse Telkitty is from Australia.
 
user406009
Cicada is the one living in China.
 
7:18 PM
There's a fundamental flaw if you can subjectively decide whether or not something is acceptable. That's not 'perfectly good' free speech
 
user1804599
I'm pretty sure Telkitty is from China.
 
user559633
Wait, doesn't the UK have nanny laws on what words you can say?
 
user406009
It can sorta be hard to tell since Australia and China are sorta in the same timezone.
 
@Elyse She lives in Australia afaik
 
@Puppy The way the electoral college works, you could become President with only 22% of the vote.
 
user1804599
7:19 PM
@Puppy Saying the king is a moron is illegal.
 
user406009
I think the EU has stronger anti-hate speech laws than the US.
 
user1804599
@TonyTheLion TIL
 
hey, there is a post on the right side of the screen saying that the Lounge<c++> is closing down. What's up with that?
 
user406009
Like you can create a US Nazi Party if you wanted to.
 
@EtiennedeMartel It happens more often than anywhere else, but you're still considerably more likely to die from being struck by lightning than caught in the famous mass shootings (average deaths by lighting: 49/year, average deaths in mass shootings: 17.6/year).
 
7:19 PM
@EtiennedeMartel You can do the same here.
 
user406009
But you can't do that in Germany.
 
@bitcode Can't you tell its not here anymore?
 
And corporations can give as much money as they want to politicians.
 
Didn't Germany just recently allow reprinting of mein kampf after a lot of back and forth
 
user559633
@EtiennedeMartel Not openly -- we like to pretend
 
7:20 PM
yesterday, by Ven
Welcome to Lounge<C++>. Sadly, we're closing down soon, but you can still read The Rules and have fun with us while it lasts!
 
@Prismatic I read that too, but its an annotated version
 
user1804599
When I become old hot I want to be a programmer porn star!
 
@Elyse I think that if you were to be prosecuted for that, the European courts would smack the Netherlands. It's probably only still law because nobody got around to getting rid of it.
 
@bitcode Yes, we aren't here anymore, are we?
 
user1804599
With Clojure you can be both!
 
7:21 PM
@tristan No, really.
 
@Mr.kbok It was from a company named Lattice that sold development tools.
 
user1804599
@Puppy There was, in fact, someone almost prosecuted for it recently.
 
@Elyse So... You don't want to be come a porn star?
 
user559633
@EtiennedeMartel If we didn't like to pretend, we wouldn't have limits.
 
@tristan The limits were removed a while back.
 
7:21 PM
@TonyTheLion maybe the "soon" has not happened yet, in which case I was wondering, is it ever gonna happen? I'm confused.
 
@Elyse Don't think that the European courts can intervene if you're "almost" prosecuted.
 
user1804599
@набиячлэвэлиь I am not sure. Photoshoots might be more fun than programming if the salaries are reasonable.
 
Corporations are people, and donating money to politicians is akin to voicing your opinion, so restricting spending is against the first amendment.
 
user559633
@EtiennedeMartel In 12 states. And not the very good ones.
 
user559633
States rights, don't tread on me, etc
 
user406009
7:22 PM
There are legitimate free speech dilemmas with "preventing corporate spending on politicians".
 
@Elyse It was a joke on you not being able to become hot :G
 
user406009
You can't stop it without also preventing some "legitimate" free speech.
 
user1804599
lol rightfold not hot
 
user1804599
funny joke
 
@bitcode I doubt its going to happen, that message was written in the midst of a Lounge drama. Its therefore a bit dramatic.
 
7:22 PM
I completely don't have a problem with banning all corporate donations to politicians.
 
Because I'm good at ~~~logic~~~~
 
the only circumstance in which it's acceptable is when the amount is so small that it's an irrelevant effect.
 
user406009
@Puppy How do you differentiate between corporate advertising and someone creating a political sign in their backyard?
 
I'm completely fine with politicians that are not morons
 
user559633
@Puppy So I'm a CEO. You put that law in place, but I decide that I still want to contribute. What's to prevent me from just raising my pay by the the amount I want to give, then donating to a campaign as an individual?
 
7:23 PM
@LucDanton It's not done, but I don't know what's the status, the upstream nethack-tas-tools repo was on Gitorious and all of that has been unavailable for months now
 
@TonyTheLion Oh, I get it now. That ven guy is a random guy. I'm new here and I thought he as a mod or something, you know?
 
@Elyse ? super Shape is such a silly syntax :)
 
user1804599
In NL politicians get money from government.
 
@Lalaland One is done by a company and the other is done by a person.
@tristan Shareholders.
 
@EtiennedeMartel nonsense!
 
7:24 PM
also I would absolutely ban large-scale personal contributions.
 
user1804599
My favourite politician however refuses to accept that money, as he is against subsidies in general. :)
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Yeah, but it works I guess.
 
user559633
If you don't think that the shareholders at a corporation aren't involved in giving money to political campaigns, I don't even know where to start
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow I don't really like ? anyway. You can't say e.g. Map<?, ?> where both ?s must be the same type.
 
they totally are, but if you raise your own pay arbitrarily, who's to say you're actually gonna spend it how they asked for?
it's your pay.
 
7:25 PM
static <T> void whatever(Map<T, T> voila);
 
user1804599
In Scala you can: Map[T, T] forSome { type T }.
 
user406009
@Puppy Really? The company can just distribute those profits to the shareholders who then use that for political speech.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow not a variable.
 
also, as I said, I would make large-scale personal contributions illegal anyway.
 
@Elyse How is that better?
 
user1804599
7:26 PM
dunno XD
 
user406009
@Puppy What's the difference between a personal contribution and free speech?
 
user1804599
Can you do static <T, U super T> void whatever(Map<T, U> voila);?
 
@Lalaland Large sums of money.
or to put it another way
when you do free speech, that is your right to speak - it's got nothing to do with whether or not other people have to listen.
 
user559633
Why shouldn't I be able to spend my money to express my thoughts/beliefs?
 
7:27 PM
when you donate money to a campaign, that's completely not the case- it massively and unconditionally changes the outcome.
@tristan Because it's fucking stupid.
 
user1804599
So is cutting your wrist.
 
the whole point of a democratic system is lost.
 
If you ban large scale contributions doesnt that mean that politicians who have access to the most personal wealth get the loudest voice?
 
it becomes a purely financial system.
 
user559633
Oh, okay then, argument over!
 
user1804599
7:27 PM
There is no reason to prohibit everything that is fucking stupid.
 
@Prismatic Nope, their own wealth qualifies as a donation too.
 
People will just independently promote campaigns then
 
let them
 
user559633
Okay, so then is there also a limit on how often you can speak, how many flyers you can print, how many states you can visit?
 
if you want to promote a campaign spending your own personal time, that's fine.
 
7:28 PM
@Elyse Not sure, but you can definitely do static <T> void whatever(Map<T, ? super T> voila);
275
Q: Java Generics: What is PECS?

peakitI came across PECS (short for Producer extends and Consumer super) while reading up on generics. Can someone explain to me how to use PECS to resolve confusion between extends and super?

 
@tristan Nope, because none of those things are mass scale in the same way.
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow I want U to be the return type.
 
if you print flyers, people will bin them.
 
user559633
Because unless you can spend a year campaigning and flying/driving around, you're not going to be able to compete.
 
if you speak, people have to choose to attend.
they don't get your shit rammed down their throat without choice.
 
user1804599
7:29 PM
@fredoverflow Just like producer covariant and consumer contravariant.
 
and it's the whole goddamn point of democracy that everybody gets a vote.
 
user559633
I don't want to live in this society you're creating in which there are seemingly arbitrary determinations on what's "stupid" and able to be controlled by the government
 
@Puppy What form of advertising do you not have the choice to ignore
 
user559633
Everybody does get a vote (unless they're a child/felon)
 
but if you allow large personal, and especially corporate, donations, then you are completely violating the point.
because people don't get to vote, money gets to vote.
 
user406009
7:29 PM
Let's bring up a practical example.
 
@Puppy What the hell does this even mean
 
user406009
Pretend that I hate dark chocolate.
 
user406009
I write an essay describing how it is the devil.
 
user559633
Dark chocolate is stupid. You can't have it.
 
user406009
Can I use money to advertise that essay?
 
7:30 PM
@tristan On a global scale, you can alias « arbitrary determinations » and « values ». That's more or less what drives the laws.
 
user1804599
@Prismatic Propaganda changes people's opinions. Money funds propaganda.
 
user406009
Can I buy TV spots to repeat it to other people?
 
@Prismatic It means that if you buy enough adverts, you can win regardless of whether or not you're better, simply because the other guy didn't get heard.
 
@Elyse You are free to ignore propaganda
 
user1804599
No, you're not.
 
user1804599
7:30 PM
It's subconscious.
 
user406009
Can I buy signs and postcards for my movement?
 
@Lalaland Only up to a certain limit.
 
user559633
Let's say that it's art. I run an art gallery now. What art am I allowed to show?
 
only if you're not over the limit.
 
user559633
This is totalitarian as fuck
 
7:31 PM
@tristan Doesn't matter because first people have to show up.
 
user1804599
@tristan Anything you like IYAM.
 
user406009
What if I use personal connections to advertise my speech?
 
user406009
I am buds with a TV producer.
 
@Puppy Who decides whats better? Maybe I legit want to vote for the candidate who has the nicest campaign ads. Isn't that my right as a voter?
 
user559633
But my art gallery has a lot of windows and is on a busy street corner.
 
7:31 PM
@sehe heard good things about this for parsing in C#
 
user406009
And he can sneak my speech in.
 
@Prismatic No.
 
@Elyse Return types should never be bounded in Java, IIRC.
 
user559633
Do I have to make sure that my art is not visible from a distance?
 
@tristan That's gonna mean shit in a national election.
 
user1804599
7:31 PM
I want a painting of Hitler fist fucking Stalin.
 
Hola
 
user559633
Let's say I have 200 art galleries.
 
ok
 
user559633
Same thing applies?
 
let's say that you have a national chain of art galleries.
 
user1804599
7:32 PM
Holy shit that's a lot of art galleries.
 
@Puppy lol, okay so now we've jumped to some draconian society where I can't vote based on what I want, I have to vote based on what someone else tells me. Sounds awesome
 
then absolutely it fucking does apply.
 
What's with the notice saying that Lounge C++ closing soon?
 
@Moshe Ignore it, its just drama
 
ok cool
 
user559633
7:33 PM
Okay, so what amount of art am I allowed to show, what viewing distances and angles am I allowed, and who makes that determination?
 
user559633
What's that threshold of "big art"
 
well, ultimately, I would be happy to leave any individual case down to the courts to decide, as that is their function.
 
Xeo
@AndyProwl Currently sitting at home. Prolly not going out far today, maybe visiting a friend.
 
user1804599
The Dutch state broadcaster is one big propaganda machine.
 
however I would not permit political advertising to be openly visible.
 
7:34 PM
@MadaraUchiha It wasn't Nooble
 
user559633
What about religious advertising?
 
@Elyse Most broadcasters have a political leaning, especially news networks
 
@Prismatic There's nothing "sudden" about it. The government risks your life all the time in various pursuits for the national benefit. This is nothing different.
 
user559633
Or is it some statistical measure of what is and isn't considered aligned with political leanings?
 
@tristan Banned.
 
7:34 PM
@CatPlusPlus I was actually only replaying what I understood from fragments of context, so I apologize if it wasn't accurate.
 
user1804599
@Prismatic And that's fine. Except when they're funded from tax money.
 
user1804599
Then it's totally unfair and outright dangerous.
 
@Elyse This compiles:
static <U, T extends U> U whatever(Map<T, U> voila, T key)
{
    return voila.get(key);
}
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Nice. :)
 
@Elyse Agreed
 
7:35 PM
@Elyse I think that it's not fine, regardless of their funding.
I would ban all broadcasters from having political bias.
 
Too hard.
 
(By the time I was awake, both of them were suspended)
 
@Puppy You are fundamentally opposed to free speech
 
user406009
@Puppy They used to have rules like that in the US I believe.
 
@Puppy But.. but... how would they get paid if you do that?
 
7:36 PM
@Prismatic I'm not opposed to it in the slightest. It's a vital and necessary part of society.
but what I don't think is that it's an unconditional win.
 
you can't just "Free Speech" every problem away.
 
user559633
Yeah, this is a pretty scary system in which people can't gather for spiritual beliefs or use their wealth to express themselves.
 
many things are much worse than the minor loss of free speech associated with them.
 
Ok so this year's t-shirt has modules on it
 
7:36 PM
> Java generics haven't been fully supported in Scala until now. They're not in the newest official release, but you can already use them checking out them from the SVN or downloading a nightly build. To get Java generic interoperatibility working, Scala has gotten a new feature, existential types.
interesting
 
That's a commitment
 
like yelling "Fire" in a theatre, which is already illegal in the US.
 
Even when the theatre is burning?
 
Everyideal you've been discussing is against free speech. In a sense I agree that its not some magic panacea. Its more the mark of an ideal society
 
user559633
Especially when the theatre is burning.
 
7:37 PM
@fredoverflow Was about to ask that :D
 
Puppyland is not a very nice place to live
 
@Prismatic That's because we've pretty much been focusing on how free speech has gone too far in many places.
 
user559633
Yeah it's really scary actually.
 
How do you fire theatre personal? Are you allowed to say "You're fired" inside a theatre?
 
@AndyProwl what shirt?
 
user559633
7:38 PM
He's making this crazy micromanaging totalitarian system in the name of free speech.
 
But you certainly dont sound like you're 'for' it when you say you want to control what content is shown through broadcasting or how much funds politicians can use to advertise themselves
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow I like that you cannot call List#map from Java.
 
@AndyProwl To selling you non-existent features :v
 
@melak47 meeting c++
 
user1804599
Java can resolve the method just fine, but cannot type check any call to it.
 
7:38 PM
@Puppy According to your ideal, any reporter being accused of political biased is to be silenced or censored.
 
@Prismatic Happens all the time. You want contributions from drug lords? Or Cuba?
 
@Cat It can't be non-existent now that it's on a t-shirt!
 
or how would you like to reveal a shitload of classified documents?
 
That... kind of goes again free speech..
 
@Puppy snort
 
7:39 PM
@tristan And this always unravels and is abused. Even though freedom of speech sucks when its used to spread hate, its better than the alternative of 'subjective' freedom of speech being used to silence
 
I don't see Snowden rushing back to the US with Free Speech as his defence.
 
So what you're saying is, there would be no such thing as a broadcaster anymore.
 
@Elyse How often does one need to call Scala code from Java? Callbacks in libraries I guess?
 
user1804599
@fredoverflow Perhaps. Dunno.
 
@MadaraUchiha Well, arguably, that's a judge's decision, but if they actually displayed that bias in their reporting, then yes.
 
7:39 PM
@Puppy bud thats a completely different issue
 
user1804599
There's little reason to use Java when you have Scala. :P
 
Because not having a bias is 100% impossible.
 
@Prismatic It's the exact same issue.
you want money from Cuba? tough shit.
 
user559633
@Prismatic Entirely agreed.
 
@Puppy Then it's not free speech, and in fact, it's quite the opposite of what the media's original purpose was.
 
7:39 PM
there's no difference between saying you can't have money from Cuba and you can't have money from Warren Buffet.
 
Before it was all corporate and greedy, the point of the media is to inform the people
 
@MadaraUchiha Which is every reporter, everywhere.
 
23
Q: What is and when to use Scala's forSome keyword?

pathikritWhat is the difference between List[T] forSome {type T} and List[T forSome {type T}]? How do I read them in "English"? How should I grok the forSome keyword? What are some practical uses of forSome? What are some useful practical and more complex than simple T forSome {type T} usages?

I still don't get it. I guess I'm too stupid to grasp existential types.
 
they're the exact same obvious principle, which is that there are limits on how beneficial it is and there's lots of ways in which it can massively detract from society which need to be accounted for.
 
If you want a better informed society then the way to go is to allow more opposing views not less
 
7:40 PM
I agree.
 
Hunting for bias is silly because it's ultimately subjective as fuck
 
The point is to reduce the power the government has over the people by introducing the transparency which is brought by the media.
So the media is supposed to be biased against any current government
 
yeah, except the media are not transparent at all.
 
@Puppy Right
1 min ago, by Madara Uchiha
Before it was all corporate and greedy, the point of the media is to inform the people
 
and when they're not transparent, the people are heavily biased because they literally don't hear from the other side.
 
user559633
7:41 PM
Are you just mixing up media and reporters?
 
@Puppy political campaign funding isn't just bags of money changing hands is it? There's a paper trail, the money has to be legitimate. You can't have a few million thrown in from some random drug lord
 
Like many other things, media was corrupted by money.
 
Don't they have to set up non-profit orgs and the like
 
user559633
Because I assure you that wish fulfillment garbage like hunger games is not meant to "inform the people"
 
@Prismatic It's legit
 
7:41 PM
@Prismatic Then we completely agree. I've simply defined "legitimate" to include "not horrifically biasing the electoral system in favour of the richest at the expense of everybody else"
 
user559633
devil is in the details
 
@Puppy It is 100% the individual's responsibility to be informed
 
user559633
who decides bias
 
If you call a "donation" from an oil giant for 300 million dollars "legit"
 
@Xeo I think I'm staying at the hotel. I don't feel particularly good
 
7:42 PM
@Prismatic Really? Why don't you take a few weeks off work then and go spend some time watching the Senate do their business?
and then do that all the time.
and then also visit every state, watch every electoral campaign
 
@Puppy Oh, it doesn't take a few weeks.
 
@Puppy There are actually great tools to be well read on the political process if you want
I was thinking more like, get your news from more than just CNN or Fox
 
That ^
 
that is not enough.
 
@Puppy It's a lot better than most
Here in Israel, we have an entire group of people who exclusively vote based on what the Rabbi says
 
7:44 PM
you're basically saying "I apologize for Fox being shit; nobody should watch it and watching it is incredibly detrimental to our entire society. But, let's just keep airing it so that people who don't know better suffer all the effects."
 
Except thats not what Im saying at all
 
Just get your news from Reddit like everyone else.
 
that's exactly what you just said.
 
@Puppy Because of freedom of speech, you can't just stop them from saying what they want.
 
user559633
@rlemon pff reddit is biased due to contributions from big fedora
 
7:44 PM
The only thing you can do is teach people not to listen.
 
Im saying, watch some Fox but remember it'll have a bit of a slant. Watch CNN, but remember the same thing. Then check out some Al-Jazeera and BBC to round out your diet
 
@Puppy Idiotism is not yet a crime.
 
well
if Puppy wrote the law, he sure as hell could stop them from saying what they want.
 
@tristan filter comments by most controversial and the news outlets are more lifelike
 
user559633
if the internet of late has taught me one thing, it's not on me to not take offense, it's on you to self-censor
 
7:45 PM
You can't force someone to shut up because you disagree with them, because you think they're biased, or because you think they're stupid.
 
There is no such thing as a source of news that has no bias. There is always going to be a bias even down to the personal reporting level
 
@Prismatic What would be better is if they just weren't slanted in the first place.
 
Oh it's Thursday
 
42 secs ago, by Puppy
if Puppy wrote the law, he sure as hell could stop them from saying what they want.
 
@Puppy Did you know that mods can plonk and unplonk people for you?
 
7:46 PM
no.
 
@MadaraUchiha If it was, half the lounge would be in jail ;)
 
How would you feel if I plonked people on your behalf?
 
(myself included)
 
seriously tho, when I do watch news streams, my first course of action is to source everything they are claiming. I don't trust anyone anymore
 
When it comes to neutral information, I think that AFP does a good job.
 
user559633
7:46 PM
plonk like the shitty wine?
 
@tristan plonk as in ignore
 
@Prismatic Bias is like leukemia; just because you can't prevent it entirely doesn't mean you shouldn't eradicate it from existence whenever you can. And sue people who try to spread it.
@MadaraUchiha If you plonked certain people on my behalf I would certainly not object. But then I plonked them anyway, so there's not really much action required.
 
user559633
wait, why aren't people allowed to be biased?
 
However legitimate it may be, however shitty or biased the users I'm blocking out for you. Would you still say you approve of me making that call for you?
 
user559633
^
 
7:47 PM
if you were to meet the appropriate standards, then yes, I'd be totally fine with that.
 
user559633
define appropriate
 
@Puppy Define appropriate standards.
 
in fact, it happens all the time when users get banned.
 
user406009
@tristan It's not that people aren't allowed to be biased, it's that we don't allow public communication to be biased.
 
user406009
@tristan See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine (/cc @MadaraUchiha)
 
7:48 PM
#define standards
 
user559633
Oh, lol, yeah, and then that law got clawed back because lol
 
@MadaraUchiha Well, let's say that you hold a public hearing in a court, where everything is recorded for the leisurely viewing of everybody who wants to, and you also have several layers of bosses above you that I can appeal to if I so choose. And then I also directly get a vote in choosing them.
 
@Lalaland You theoretically don't allow
 
in fact
 
I've seen CNN and Fox, you definitely allow for biased public discussion :P
 
7:49 PM
people get censored all the time, both on SO and in real life.
 
user406009
@MadaraUchiha That's because the policy got taken down.
 
user406009
For better or for worse.
 
user406009
People of course disagree.
 
users get banned, and you can be arrested for various communications, like inciting terrorism, criminal conspiracy, or child pornography.
 
@Lalaland Aha
 
7:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus yep, was pancakes today, the only sure way to know what day it is.
 
in all of these cases, the national benefit is far more important than any free speech.
 
ok so for those attending Meeting C++, this map makes it clear where we're supposed to go.
 
user406009
@MadaraUchiha But I still think it's a valuable practical example for how you can achieve @Puppy's goals.
 
the only difference between us is that I can see that allowing people and companies to spend massive sums of money on political campaigns is far worse than any terrorist.
 
user406009
And by some respects, the Fairness Doctrine was successful.
 
7:50 PM
I think it would be a lot wiser to invest a lot in education.
 
@AndyProwl A whole room for loungers at Meeting C++? I hope they have 12 mods on hand.
 
Have people be able to tell the bullshit from the facts
Have people be able to gather the information they need to make an informed decision.
 
@Nick Eh, haven't seen any blue people around!
 
user406009
@MadaraUchiha That's almost impossible.
 
Because even if public discussion will be completely and totally impartial (yeah right)
 
7:51 PM
@MadaraUchiha With the internet people have (near) instantaneous access to the largest collection of information ever in the history of mankind
 
user559633
education comes with a bias, especially with the recent wave of rewriting history and being extra careful not to "trigger" people
 
@MadaraUchiha we don't need no.. education... dum dum dummm. we don't need no.. thought control!
 
user406009
See for instance: Religion.
 
what more could you possibly ask for
 
Most people get the vast majority of information from social media.
@Prismatic Right, and how do people use that amazing piece of technology?
Some of them have intelligent discussions like this one
 
7:52 PM
child porn
 
user406009
@MadaraUchiha To troll other people and watch cat videos.
 
Others vote for Donald Trump.
 
user559633
And Trump is less of a corporate candidate than Clinton
 
inb4 the internet is for porn
 
he's not a corporate candidate, he's a corporation.
 
7:53 PM
@Puppy He's a failed corporation
 
user559633
no u
 
user406009
Trump is a clown. But he says what the people want to hear.
 
I don't really know anything about Clinton's corporate ties, so I can't really comment.
 
user559633
she's pretty terrible. read about her history as a lawyer. people should be reeling back
 
@tristan But 9/11 and feminism.
 
user406009
7:54 PM
Usually the people arguing for Clinton want her because she is competent.
 
user559633
competent can be worse than "idiot muppet"
 
What if people could vote on issues instead of politicians
 
user559633
what if the matrix was about pizza
 
user406009
@tristan True.
 
@Prismatic God no
The whole problem with democracy is that stupid people's vote count the same as smart people's
And empirically, stupid people have more kids than smart people
Have you seen Idiocracy?
 
user559633
7:55 PM
but also tend not to vote unless they're also old
 
Lol, smart people.
So objective.
 
user406009
@MadaraUchiha Well, a lot people in this chat don't want to have children. Ever.
 
user559633
@Lalaland doesn't mean we don't have them anyway ;__;
 
If you vote for politicians, at least there's the chance that he's at least somewhat smart in prioritizing the importance
But the general public votes on whatever's on social media today
You remember the ALS ice bucket challenge?
 
yeah
 
7:57 PM
Imagine that, not medicine, just ALS, getting a significant portion of the US budget, because it was popular.
 
user559633
wait, that money went to ALS?
 
More important apparently, than the more boring subjects, like education, housing, defense.
 
yeah fair enough
 
@tristan From the Ice Bucket thing?
 
user559633
seems like a bad idea to give a lot of money to a disease. it's probably going to just spend it on drugs
 
user559633
7:59 PM
yeah, i thought the money raised went to research and not to the disease itself
 
user406009
I really just want to the US to reduce our military spending.
 
user559633
hahah classy elyse
 
okay so democracy sucks
 
People are completely biased into prioritizing the real issues wrongly
 
user406009
Let's spend more on research.
 
7:59 PM
bring on the robotic overlords
 

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