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Xeo
7:00 PM
@Jefffrey Why?
@DeadMG Of course it's annoying when something is better :P
 
@Xeo To keep it... why not?
 
no, it's annoying when they won't shut up about it :P
 
user1804599
Woo. Found out a way to do extension methods.
 
I'm bored
Also out of food, so time for pizza I guess
 
Xeo
Hm, I wonder if I should really got for a 750W PSU. With the current wattage estimate, even if I were to add a second graphics card, I'd still have 15W leeway with a 550W PSU
 
7:05 PM
you wanna be careful about how many amps are on what rails
 
Xeo
I guess
 
or maybe it's volts.
I don't quite remember, but I know that wattage alone isn't that great an indicator, you need the right PSU configuration too
 
@Xeo I too think your PSU choice was a bit too much
 
Xeo
bleh, setting up a PC build is annoying
 
for my i5 2400 and a GTX 460 back in the day I went with a 500W PSU and still had plenty of stuff to throw at it before reaching the limit
 
Xeo
7:07 PM
Well, pcpartpicker estimates the current wattage requirement at 365. Add 170 for another graphics card to that and you're at 535
not that I'm really planning on adding another one
@DeadMG I wonder if the pcpartpicker compatibility thing pays attention to that
I hope so
 
I wouldn't hope anything, I'd check.
 
Voltages are standard
If it's ATX and not some no-name cheap shit, it'll be fine
 
people recommend PSUs with internals made by Seasonic
 
I have OCZ now, had Tagan earlier, both good
 
I think mine is an Antec High Current Gamer
 
7:11 PM
Also 550 will be fine for one card, I'd probably go with something stronger for two cards
 
I'm looking to change it too, for a year and a half I was able to hear clicking sounds coming from it
I stopped hearing them in the last year
 
Hello, the company I work in will pay for some engineers to attend c++ conventions for training. What should I choose, cppcon or c++ and beyond ?
 
pay me to go instead
 
@DeadMG I think you need no further training :P
 
7:16 PM
@NikosAthanasiou Why not both?
 
Xeo
@NikosAthanasiou cppcon
 
@NikosAthanasiou Prove it.
 
@NikosAthanasiou Pretty convincing.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Too much money ?
 
7:20 PM
@NikosAthanasiou There's nothing complex on that page.
 
don't be so modest now
 
Yes but that was 2 years ago, I suppose upwill from there
 
well it's undeniable that I'm a genius
but it's also undeniable that I should really start looking for employment soon
 
@DeadMG Easy there
hahaha
 
7:21 PM
easy cowboy
 
what, afraid I'm gonna take your job?
 
are you going to live in italy?
 
no
 
then no
 
in Greece
?
 
7:22 PM
nope
 
Come man , be more flexible in relocation :P
rellocation
 
reallocation
 
there are plenty of fishes in the sea
 
looks like I gotta start a bounty on my code review question
 
@Borgleader hahaha
 
7:24 PM
Good morning... The sad thing is that I just woke up thinking about my programming problems and I thought about them in my sleep
I need a tylenol
 
usually I only remember dreams when I remember dreaming about crippling stomach pain
 
@Xeo I believe you're aware of the confereces (I remember a correction you made on Alexandrescu's variadic templates talk)
 
then I wake up and I'm like, "Gosh, I'm precognitive!".
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Both get about the same
 
:/ you have stomach problems?
 
7:25 PM
not so much now though
 
Xeo
@NikosAthanasiou I've never been to any C++ conference :(
 
I've been to a Committee meeting, kekeke
 
Xeo
you also lived basically right next to where it happened
so fuck you
 
hmm
 
Interesting (ab)use of std::accumulate :) I, however, strongly disagree with the points made in the "ranty" part of your introduction. The reason that C++ does not have these extensions is not single, and it's not just "people don't like you". In fact, it is for the reasons I describe in my answer: the committee, fortunately, does realize that there will be an unending parade of slight algorithm variations and combinations that will come in handy sometimes. — sehe 1 min ago
 
7:26 PM
it wasn't right next to where it happened.
 
E.g. your WG21 N3795 completely misses the point that a transformation could be required. What you'd end up with would be an enormous "soup" of near-identical, badly-named algorithms (partition_transform_if, partition_transformed_copy_if, partition_copy_if_with_transform, three_way_partition, three_way_partition_transform_if etc. etc.). The real solution simply involves making algorithms properly composable: make the list of algorithms smaller and more generically applicable. Don't just bolt-on more crutches. — sehe 18 secs ago
 
I had to fork out a couple hundred quid for the hotel
 
I too think that cppcon is better, but it's in another continent so I'd have to persuate my manager for the expenses (c++ and beyond is in Germany this year)
 
but it wasn't that far
I didn't have substantial travel expenses, only hotel
and Committee meetings are free to attend
 
accomodation is travel expenses, too, in my book
 
7:27 PM
@DeadMG Do you have a photo with Bjarne?
 
fair nuff
@NikosAthanasiou Nope.
I actually kept a lot to myself, I'm not that kind of guy to walk up to a stranger and introduce myself
 
Come programmers are really social hahahaha
 
on the plus side
I got to tell the dynarray paper guy that he was insane in person
 
nvm i get it
missing comma
 
and I met STL
he's a great guy
 
7:29 PM
@Borgleader or s/C/S/
 
Yes, he's really cool , he answered an email where I asked him to answer a SO question (let me see if I can find it)
 
I just wrote something cool, but part of it is giving me a headache. I wrote a mark and sweep garbage collector in portable c++.. I think it would take multiple comments to describe
Since C++ has limitations it's not as unrestricted as C#'s - the basic restriction being that objects belong to a thread, each thread has its own garbage collector, and references ACROSS threads have to fall back on atomically handled reference counts like shared_ptr and boost's intrusive_ptr so cycles that involve ownership by more than one thread won't be collected. Also in the current version, weak pointers are only available in the owning thread.
What's bothering me is that multithreaded access to a pointer is hard, because there's always a possibility of a race condition where the underlying object is deleted just as you load the value - and before incrementing a ref count
 
I'm thinking of doing something really cheezy like putting a pause between destroying an object and freeing the memory
 
er
how is that cheezy?
 
7:33 PM
well if its a pause to eat cheese, its cheezy
 
because it doesn't 100% make sure that the object won't be deleted out from under you, it just makes it 99.99% sure
 
@DeadMG Simple: it doesn't really work dependably.
 
or something
 
@Xeo I too think that cppcon is better, but it's in another continent so I'd have to persuate my manager for the expenses (c++ and beyond is in Germany this year)
 
put a store -100000 to the refcount at the beginning of Destroy() then if your inc refcount gets you a negative number you know to reload
 
7:35 PM
@Xeo Quick question (since I found you here) could you take a look at this stackoverflow.com/q/23573697/2567683 ?
 
@JoshS From the opposing view, it pretty much guarantees you'll eventually try to use an object after it's been deleted, but makes it sufficiently rare that debugging the problem turns into just about the worst nightmare humanly possible.
 
Xeo
@NikosAthanasiou Sorry, busy
 
Also that would get in the way with the fact that my system allows objects to be resurrected from inside Destroy
 
@Xeo ok no prob
 
Hmm.
> cannot execute binary file
 
7:37 PM
Jerry it's more rare than you think - objects don't auto-destruct on refcount being 0, they destroy on garbage collection in their owning thread
 
but if I got to the exact folder and run ./cabal, everything works fine
 
the likelyhood that you start to load a value, it changes from under you, a whole gc runs then you come back and continue the load is very low
But I suppose it's not 0
 
Xeo
@CatPlusPlus Even with two GTX760s and CPU overclocked to 4GHz it recommends 512 only, so yeah, guess I'll go for a 550 PSU
 
@JoshS Yes, I know how a tracing garbage collector works.
 
@JerryCoffin well it just seems like a much more likely problem with shared_ptr that deletes immediately so I thought you might have been confused by all that ref counting
Is there a solution with shared_ptr, something horrible like only reading them with std::atomic_load and only storing with std::atomic_store
Or does that not even work
 
Xeo
7:43 PM
Okay, 2 GTX760, 1 i5-4670K @ 4GHz, 4x 8GB DDR, 3 fans in the case (I forgot those before), 1 SSD and it still shows under 550W
 
@Xeo Its cheaper to buy 2 GTX760s then getting one more powerful card?
 
I should really get a new income stream to complement my salary
 
Xeo
That was just the hypothetical maximum, for the Wattage tool
@Borgleader Also, probably. 2x MSI GTX760 OC 2GB is 470eur.
 
@Borgleader especially true for the highest end cards
 
"get a new income stream" what do you have in mind... I need more monies too, and I'm just programming for a hobby
 
7:45 PM
@JoshS By far the cleanest is to just have a cross-thread collector.
 
you can get two high end nvidias for half the price of the TITAN, reaching the same performance in the end
 
@AlexM. Me too ;)
 
well considering my contract doesn't allow me to make games for profit on my own, I guess I can't do that
not a huge loss tbh
 
Make apps :P
 
perhaps I can go with some outsourcing stuff
 
7:46 PM
@DeadMG I can so imagine you doing that
 
@Borgleader that's one thing I could do, yes
 
@JerryCoffin I've spent a LOT of time thinking about it and trying different designs - I can't really come up with a nice portable C++ design for that. Asking a bunch of threads to sync so you have a safe point to collect would be horrible.. and trying to write a collector that runs in parallel and doesn't mind that it can't stop the threads, read the registers, read compiler temps is horrible too.
And destructors become really hard if objects aren't owned by a thread that will run them
 
Yes C++ is p horrible
 
@JoshS Yes, concurrent collection is hard, but it's entirely possible.
 
Gosh. I forgot about Vlad. I suppose:
@VladfromMoscow I think you're still missing the point. Did you read the question here? It's already an example of YetAnotherUsefulCombination. Other libraries have gotten this right: list comprehensions in Python, Haskell, Boo, ... In CLR languages, LINQ to objects solves this problem elegantly. My point is, the committee is not eager to add more "incidental" algorithms, as there is no end to this source and it will just bloat the library to the point where no-one knows what algorithms expect what arguments. (This is already the case to some extent. ... (continued) — sehe 40 secs ago
 
7:50 PM
I had a design, but I was worried about transition between phases... if you use the OS to stop all threads even long enough to make sure that memory is in consistent state it's easier
 
user2260218
Hey all.
 
Bohem has the advantage of not being portable - and I had bad experience using it
 
user2260218
Can anyone answer a caching question?
 
@JoshS yup.
 
I was getting crashes in the c++ test, and the maintainer said that he could reproduce and make other crashes but didn't know the answer
I could mess with the build so it wasn't crashing but that's not the same as having it be bug free
 
7:53 PM
@JoshS Yes--concurrent collection nearly requires either read barriers or writer barriers to be efficient. It is possible to implement those with typical paging hardware, but access to that isn't entirely portable, and the result isn't terribly efficient.
 
@Anthony You're welcome to
 
@Anthony Give it your best shot.
 
I was happy that this design doesn't require barriers
 
@JoshS Boehm?
 
yeah
 
user1804599
7:54 PM
How is not being portable an advantage?
 
they can call OS routines
 
@rightfold Gives them access to features he can't use.
 
no one is forcing me to write this in the way I did, I just thought the design was a good fit for C++
 
@JoshS Right--I suppose to be technically correct I should have said "that don't fit the specified constraints" instead of "he can't use", but I normally treat those as essentially synonymous.
 
so it turns out that perusing data structures in more than one thread in C++ requires the PROGRAM LOGIC to be adapted to make it safe - you can't just assume that reading a pointer is safe
You need to know the object can't be deleted or have a mutex or something ... god
 
user1804599
7:59 PM
Make everything immutable problem solved.
 
@JoshS Nope. If you wanted that, goto Java;
 
user1804599
And use queues for communication.
 
@rightfold Yup--solves the problem by ensuring the code has such narrow scope nobody will ever use it.
@rightfold Immutable queues?
 
user406009
Everything that you pass through the queue should be immutable or copied.
 
user406009
(Or moved I guess)
 
8:01 PM
@JerryCoffin yeah for some reason computer science professors love those answers
It seems like CS is now mathematics instead of being engineering
 
user1804599
Use a language that has actual high-level concurrency features.
 
@JoshS CS (as such) always really was.
 
Ha ha engineering good joke
 
@rightfold Erlang (for one obvious example) certainly has its good points, but that does very little (if any) to help the terabytes of existing C++ code.
 
Nothing can help the terabytes of existing C++ code other than a revolver with one bullet
 
8:03 PM
@JoshS It has never been engineering.
 
user1804599
Indeed. That’s why the C in C++ is for “cancer.”
 
user406009
@JoshS I am reading some source code from my university's CS department right now. I really just wish there was more engineering in it.
 
the problem with professors being mathematicians is that the goals and skills aren't the same. Engineers want flexible easy to use tools and mathematicians want to be able to write proofs.
 
CS is a math branch
 
They should write a proof that C++ is shit. Oh wait..
 
8:07 PM
C++. QED.
 
I've been trying to figure out if the stuff they write papers on in CS departments these days have anything that would be really useful
 
@JoshS Wait-free queues.
 
For instance are "constraint handling rules" actually useful?
 
P = NP
 
user1804599
Queues are solved problem.
 
8:08 PM
@DeadMG yea that's useful, I don't like waiting in a queue.
 
@rightfold Not wait-free ones.
 
is wait-free the same as lock free?
 
well, they're solved a lot better in the last year or so, but that's mostly because of recent advances in ... CS.
@JoshS It's lock-free's bigger, better brother.
 
I actually wrote one of those last time I had a real programming job
 
hmmmm
 
8:08 PM
lock-free guarantees that at least one thread will always be making progress
 
It was broken
 
wait-free guarantees that all threads will be making progress
 
I took a paper on one, found a bug in the published algorithm, improved it and put it in our product
10 years later I found a potential bug in my version too
lock free programming is harrrd
 
well imagine how hard a wait-free queue is then
 
user1804599
That’s why you have other people do it for you.
 
8:11 PM
absolutely
 
programming is hard
 
user1804599
my penis is hard
 
with that, I'm going to go make breakfast
 
@rightfold I once thought of a small business built around that concept. At restaurants where people have to wait in line to get in, pay a homeless person to stay in line for you, and call you when "you" are close to the front of the line. Line avoidance and social consciousness combined!
 
what timezone are you in, Australia?
 
8:14 PM
@rightfold somewhat related dunno if NSFW
 
@JerryCoffin hahhaha
 
@JoshS I like my waffles with strawberries on top.
 
some people prepare breakfast in the evening
 
@JerryCoffin sounds good
 
I could solve my original problem with a level of indirection and keeping headers in "typesafe memory" ... I'd rather not
 
user1804599
8:14 PM
@JohanLarsson xD
 
typesafe memory is where you never really delete anything - though you can reuse it
but only for the same type
 
here's a rare horsed spie.
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson If something posted here is NSFW, maybe you should be working instead of chatting.
 
user406009
So, like a pool?
 
I'm in california but I was up late
 
8:15 PM
@TonyTheLion Imagine that: a Belgian thinking waffles sound good. :-)
 
@JerryCoffin :)
 
@rightfold I never chat at work
 
@JerryCoffin hou je wafel
 
@JoshS What part (if you don't mind my asking)?
 
@StackedCrooked if something is posted here that isn't NSFW then I'm going to breakfast
 
8:16 PM
FUCK YOU VISUAL STUDIO
 
san francisco
 
I DO NOT COPY THE UNIQUE POINTER
 
oops just moved
oakland
 
@DeadMG that's what they all say
 
8:17 PM
@StackedCrooked Didn't I just say I did?
 
hello
 
sigh, I just had a root canal and I'm pretty sure I need another : <
 
@JerryCoffin Google translates it incorrectly
 
front tooth though
 
It's an expression meaning "shut up".
 
8:18 PM
not "I want waffles?"
 
@StackedCrooked Hmm...okay. The little bit of Dutch/Flemish I can manage is very literal, I'm afraid.
 
what language
 
@JerryCoffin Literal translation would be "Hold your waffle."
Btw, I didn't mean that. It was just a joke :)
 
Maybe I'll make pancakes.. but the only thing I have to put on it is sugar or maybe cream cheese
 
@StackedCrooked It's all right--even if you meant it, I'd feel quite free to ignore it! :-)
 
8:20 PM
frozen peaches
 
@JoshS Hmm...breakfast in SF at Mommas...
 
@rightfold kust mijn kloten
 
so a stroopwafel?
 
user1804599
@StackedCrooked bah nee
 
@DeadMG I've never heard his voice before.
 
user1804599
8:23 PM
Ik kus geen behaarde ballen.
 
what, Rowan Atkinson?
he's fantastic.
 
He is.
 
@DeadMG Many people know that Belgium has a Flemish and French-speaking part. But we also have a German-speaking part.
 
@DeadMG pure genius, even without words
 
8:29 PM
Those poor people are always forgotten.
@Jefffrey you gotta be kidding
 
@bamboon The humour is pretty basic but his delivery is what makes it.
 
@StackedCrooked I've always watched Mr. Bean. But he never talks in there.
 
oh wait, if you've only seen Mr Bean then it makes sense
 
user1804599
The only thing he says are “Bean” and “Hello.”
 
user1804599
That episode in which he tries to use a phone that’s for sale.
 
user1804599
8:31 PM
So hilarious.
 
@DeadMG Haha yeah, but also in Mr. Bean and such
 
user1804599
@JohanLarsson XD
 
@DeadMG his ability to keep a straight face is inhuman
 
3
 
user406009
8:39 PM
That was his best work ^
 
@DeadMG wow
 
tellin ya, the guy's pretty fuckin' funny
dayum
Daisy snoring like a vaccuum cleaner.
 
lol
 
8:57 PM
@StackedCrooked nou nou
@DeadMG ROGER THAT!
 
@DeadMG yeah, it's funny. at least the last line is.
 
sbi
@R.MartinhoFernandes No you didn't. Again, I deliberately said nothing about it and all you had to say was that we both talked about it and you were interested. They would have been perfectly fine with that explanation.
 

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