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user1646075
12:00 AM
Eek. Those rightføld patterns are indeed from zsh. Powerful stuff.
 
user1646075
@Ell easily solved with chocolate.
 
What's another word for init?
 
user1646075
start? prepare?
 
Cook, bake, assemble, setup
 
12:04 AM
what
 
innit
 
innit bruvvas
 
Ell
initialize
 
whyamionnsfw4chans
 
/s/nsfw//
 
user1646075
12:05 AM
@Puppy yes, redundant.
 
user1646075
even my grandmother has probably heard of 4chan now
 
not all 4chan "channels" are nsfw
 
yes, but they are all worthless
 
Ell
^
 
user1646075
on the assumption that they have no trolls rampaging through at the time
 
12:06 AM
@AlexM. Some people are just total idiots
 
Ell
They aren't all worthless
 
@AlexM. Fuck copyright industry
Also I just woke up and I feel much more alive than yesterday
 
copyright is nice
 
I. Hate. My. Memory.
 
@aclarke yep, I've been at Microsoft and NVIDIA.. none of them use UML :|
 
Ell
12:08 AM
@R.MartinhoFernandes why?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Buy more
 
I impulse clicked myself into an overnight bushwalking trip that's rated hard
 
Why would MS or NVIDIA use UML
 
@CatPlusPlus What do you mean?
 
Half of UML including class diagrams is useless anyway
 
12:09 AM
I hate bushwalking in the heat with backpack on
 
What is useless about UML?
It shows a visual diagram of what is going on.
 
user1646075
@MarcoA. that might explain a lot. I prefer good old-fashioned ER for databases, but fucked if I'll be drawing them!
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey see Bartek's comments ever so slightly up-page
 
Classes are too low-level, there's no reason to go diagram first on that
High-level overview maybe
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty i hate bushwalking in the heat with my clothes on. But that's just me.
 
12:10 AM
But that's not how UML is used
 
@CatPlusPlus Why not?
It's easy to see the relationship between each class and what are their interface and so on.
 
UML isn't exactly on the "you-must-know" list, nor it is asked during interviews (usually). Managers and seasoned engineers usually prefer to draw boxes on a whiteboard. No need to standardize that process. If something needs additional clarification some code is written. This is my experience but someone else might have a different one.
 
They try to draw every single thing down to variables and that's dumb as fuck and only creates inflexible overengineered solutions (because you can't change the diagram! So it has to be ~~~~extensible~~~~)
 
@Jefffrey If you want to see their interface, read the header file.
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey you don't have to be totally precise. Some of the detail is hurr-durr and just gets in the way.
 
12:11 AM
the more I used diagramming software the more I felt like switching to pen and paper
 
@Jefffrey Except that's not useful until classes actually exist
 
You could argue that if you need to use UML for that, maybe you design is fucked up in the first place. But I can't see anything inherently wrong with a bunch of diagrams.
@CatPlusPlus It's good for planning.
 
I'll get a graphics tablet this month, maybe it will be easier for me to drop my ideas on "paper" with it too
 
user1646075
I think it's good to know just to be able to splat diagrams on a whiteboard
 
I'm reluctant to fill my room with paper
 
12:12 AM
@Puppy Right. Who needs a diagram that actually fits on one screen instead of reading 20+ header files.
 
Organic designs tend to be the least overengineered
Because you don't try to come up with everything at once
Which is what UML encourages
And for high-level overview that works okay
 
Not necessarily.
 
But implementation details? Nope
 
@Jefffrey It won't fit on one screen. Unless you have a super simple interface, in which case you certainly won't need 20+ header files to determine the interface from code.
 
@AlexM. you should get an ipad just to do some UML
 
12:14 AM
@MarcoA. having to use wizards to fit in some standard was what I disliked about software
 
user1646075
@MarcoA. hiss - get an android.
 
I just want to be able to draw something
 
Also with diagram-first you have to go through the fucking diagram to change implementation details
 
anything
 
Which is just retarded
 
12:14 AM
@Puppy Are you seriously arguing that UML and header files have the same density of informations on a screen?
 
If you want diagram overview of classes, then generate it from actual code
 
Ok, diagram first is bad. But that's not an argument against diagrams.
 
no, I'm saying that header files aren't sparse enough to justify duplicating all the information contained within them.
 
It's an argument against methodology that UML encourages
 
UML can also be used to describe your class space.
 
12:15 AM
and if you're going to duplicate the information in them, you should do it into a useful format, like real documentation.
instead of a diagram that just shows what's in the header.
it's the same problem as Doxygen and crap like that.
 
user1646075
Formal UML for expensive-as-all-hell formal software engineering processes
 
@Puppy (Not all languages have header files)
 
no, they have way more dense data formats that are way easier to use.
 
@aclarke Which result in crappy-as-all-hell designs
 
user1646075
12:16 AM
@CatPlusPlus yeah, even for NASA...
 
But hey at least you have 100000 pages of documentation nobody will ever care about and will become outdated in 3 months anyway
 
lol
 
~agile~
 
people should stop trying to skimp on documentation and just put in some effort to document their systems properly.
 
@Puppy puppy I think you haven't worked in a huge company
 
user1646075
12:17 AM
@Puppy It's all way too complicated. Can't win either way.
 
those guys have manager-imposed deadlines which are on the borderline of madness
 
@Puppy so that it will "become outdated in 3 months anyway"?
 
@Jefffrey At least for the intervening 3 months, you actually have something of value.
 
user1646075
@Jefffrey Well, that's the official full-time diagrammers job, innit()?
 
UML-based documentation tends to do
 
12:18 AM
(also, Cat said the 3 month thing, not me)
 
@MarcoA. getting the developers used to it is harder than getting rid of the deadlines, imo
 
So I read this this morning. Depressing as shit, I feel like @CatPlusPlus now >.<
 
Documentation that gets created alongside the code has more chance of being up-to-date
 
take a dozen of programmers who never documented anything and tell them "ok, from now on you'll do proper documentation"
 
Hey, I don't like UML either, it's just that I see they could have some value.
 
12:19 AM
@AlexM. yes, some guys are just horrible at explaining things to others
 
@Jefffrey Not really, they can't.
 
e.g. they create 20 classes, each one with name "SimpleManager", "FeasibleManager", "CrapManager", "SystemManager", "LibraryManager" and so on
 
yes
 
It's just a format to explain interface and hierarchies and/or relationships.
 
you need experience to avoid bad design
not explanations
 
12:20 AM
You can use it also to describe database tables.
 
9 mins ago, by Cat Plus Plus
High-level overview maybe
 
@AlexM. also a good manager :D
(not a class one I mean)
 
@CatPlusPlus It's still something.
 
@Jefffrey Which is strictly inferior to actual code.
 
I did a formal database design document with diagrams and shit for a database course
 
12:20 AM
@MarcoA. only if your manager influences your design
 
The result wasn't particularly any better than just making the database on the go
 
I can't see how that happens though
 
@CatPlusPlus That's what database courses usually force you to do.
 
Except now every change had to be done in 10 places in the process
And thinking that you'll never have to update the schema is naive at best
 
@AlexM. he usually does, plus influences my time.. "better is the enemy of done".. if I had a penny for each time I was told that..
 
12:21 AM
you can't add information into a process by duplicating existing information.
 
@Jefffrey Well I said half of UML is useless, not all of it :v
 
and that's exactly what happens when the structure of UML duplicates the structure of the code.
 
@MarcoA. yes
 
There: it's useful to explain your database project schema.
 
that means you're unable to adapt to his requirements
not that he actively tries to ruin your design
 
12:22 AM
And again it's just as good to generate it from actual database
 
You describe it once, you show it to your professor and voilà. Done.
 
You gain very little by going diagram-first
 
diagram-first is terrible
 
@Jefffrey He could also just read the schema.
 
This is what UML is for
 
12:22 AM
@Puppy Not if he doesn't have time.
 
This is the ~enterprise process~ it comes attached to
 
@Jefffrey Then he also doesn't have time to glean anything of value from the diagram.
 
> Note: this function does not always set the error string, so do not depend on IMG_GetError being meaningful all the time.
lol
what is the point
 
guys, can we all just agree that properly written code is more important than properly drawn diagrams?
 
@Puppy He can go through the diagram and take random looks at the implementation of some of the main relationships.
 
12:24 AM
I don't think the diagrams vs no diagrams discussion can get anywhere close to a definitive conclusion
 
I like to have overall architecture drawn
 
which will give him fuck all in terms of useful knowledge, given the same time expended.
 
Because it's a thing that's not in any one place it can be generated from
Use-case diagrams eh maybe
 
@Puppy "which will give him fuck all" wat
 
I felt it went little silly
 
12:25 AM
documenting is good in principle, it is not always feasible in practice (or doable in a useful manner.. if you don't comment your code doxygen won't help you more than just reading the code with an IDE)
 
Flow diagrams try to be too specific
 
@AlexM. discussions that can get anywhere close to a definitive conclusion are boring
4
 
NOW USER INPUTS A USERNAME. NOW USER INPUTS A PASSWORD. NOW USER PRESSES THE BUTTON. Now you have no idea how it relates to the implementation anyway
 
@Jefffrey He won't gain anything more from glancing at the diagram and glancing at some random implementations than he would get from just reading the schema.
 
@CatPlusPlus I was expecting "PRESSES BUTAN"
 
12:26 AM
@Jefffrey They also don't exist here.
 
I don't remember what I did on Friday.
 
@Jefffrey I don't see why
 
@CatPlusPlus that reminds me of the web development university course.. good stuff. Some guys used a GET to pass around passwords plain-text in the URL, some other people had 60 MB index.html webpages due to gigantic uncompressed bmp images in the background.. not to mention the color combinations..
 
Sequence diagrams are bit more useful
 
@Jefffrey More like "all hail butan" amirite?
 
12:27 AM
when you get to a conclusion you draw a line and continue from there
 
although
 
@Puppy It depends. Our professor takes a look at the diagram, searches for 1 parent-child relationship arrow and 1 many to many arrow and just asks us how we implemented it and we show him how we did by also explaining it.
 
I might back away a bit from this discussion, since the only UML we actually did at university was pretty literally "Copy and paste the method declarations" shit.
 
It obviously not as fast as making him read all the schema including procedures and functions just to look for those two things.
 
user1646075
@CatPlusPlus thats more of a flawchart. flow diagrams should be high-level as hell
 
12:28 AM
Activity diagram I think it's actually called
 
Flaw charts.
 
you can't go higher level than mindmaps
 
@AlexM. because then it means that there's an answer/a solution to the discussion/the one true way
 
@aclarke I like a flawchart
 
I like mindmaps
 
12:29 AM
@AlexM. I like mindmelds
 
what if your mind is flawed? Is that a flawchart?
 
user1646075
@MarcoA. it's a given.
 
@MarcoA. it's a flawed mind
 
user1646075
and if it actually works first time, you'll be floored
 
@Jefffrey isn't that what we should be aiming for?
 
12:32 AM
@AlexM. nah
 
sitting on a single subject and knowingly talking about it ad infinitum won't get anyone anywhere
sure it can branch out
but it's still goal-less
 
I prey for other POVs.
They are so yummy.
 
btw people who regularly use UML are 93% more subject to demonic possession
that's a fact
 
Ell
I'm going to draw an inheritance diagram tomorrow :v
 
user1646075
12:38 AM
@Ell put me down for the mansion in the Cotswolds
 
@Borgleader So basically he goes on a wall of text to explain that security is hard?
WTF
 
Fucking dicsourse
It takes me like 15 minutes to figure out dates
Why is it using 12-hour clock
 
> If nobody posts any proposal then the game is stuck in one place, which is something I don't want to happen again.
again?
 
@Jefffrey she, and no, my takeaway from this is: it all holds together with duct tape and it wouldn't take much to fuck it all up
 
E.g. before we had proposal deadline and voting deadline
Now the game can't get stuck on an inactive player
But then again maybe it won't be a problem if there's no turn order
Dunno
2hard4me
 
12:50 AM
lol
ow cosh voted against :c
 
Good morning.
Watcha talking about?
 
Ell
I'm sleeping. Night all!
 
Sleep well.
 
I subscribed to debian-security-announce and jesus everything's broken
 
@Jefffrey There is a little more to it than that. Much of it is devoted to convincing people that security is hard (and badly done), even though they haven't (knowingly) been affected by its crappiness (at least recently).
 
12:55 AM
@MarkGarcia Nothing. Nomic.
 
@Jefffrey Oh. Is that the law-making game?
 
yeah
@MarkGarcia You should try it.
 
@Borgleader Well duh
 
@Jefffrey I don't see it in the wiki though.
 
12:58 AM
Oh thanks.
Gotta see what's in it.
Oh lol discourse.
 
user1646075
@MarkGarcia morning. Things.
 
user1646075
What's your opinion on: UML, diagramming, security, Perl, Haskell, games, gaming engines, graphic engines, noobs, old farts, trolls
 
@aclarke That's pretty much the end of the world revelation.
 
@MarkGarcia We manage to get by
It'll die soonish
 
UML: mostly not very good.
Diagramming: mostly good.
Security: mostly good.
Perl: mostly bad.
Haskell: Mostly good.
Games: mostly mediocre.
gaming engines: nearly all bad.
Graphics engines: mostly bad.
noobs: mostly bad.
old farts: mostly bad (the older, the worse).
 
1:08 AM
@CatPlusPlus what will die?
 
dicsourse
 
@CatPlusPlus Also mostly bad.
 
dem renders :3
 
Who is Aston Martin? Is he famous?
(jk)
 
user1646075
@Borgleader PHWOAARR
 
1:10 AM
@Borgleader low clearance
 
Is he farts
 
@Borgleader Dems don't approve of people have cars that nice. That's clearly a Rep render. Or maybe a lib render. Definitely not dem though.
 
user1646075
@Ell, put me down for the Aston too
 
Politics: all bad
 
@CatPlusPlus Ultimately, politics is merely people managing to get along with each other (to at least some degree).
 
No that's diplomacy
 
@JerryCoffin Or saying that they manage to get along with each other.
 
@MarkGarcia Most people do get along with each other most of the time.
 
humans are social animals, our desire to be around others surpass our individuality most of the times for most of the people
 
Common interests!
 
1:16 AM
@CatPlusPlus Diplomacy only applies in international situations (at least AFAIK).
 
They or us!
 
most humans are 'designed' to get along with everyone else in the immediate surroundings
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty like. Put me down for the dog.
 
user1646075
@chmod711telkitty sort-of. See also ape brains.
 
WTF (please read the URL first)
 
user1646075
1:27 AM
"Two incidents occurred on Goodhope Bay, and one on Funk beach." - Did they name that after the observations?
 
1:49 AM
> ValueError: year=1897 is before 1900; the datetime strftime() methods require year >= 1900
cool
Also git or SourceTree is dumb and get real slow because there's a huge directory in the working copy (which is ignored, so it should be ignored dammit)
 
2:13 AM
Idris looks weird, but interesting.
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes, but it works on Linus' machine for what Linus wants, and therefore everything else automatically sucks.
 
@Jefffrey Idris? That looks like haskell
 
ikr
 
2:35 AM
@Borgleader Similar syntax, but radically different semantics, such as using eager evaluation, and (of course) dependent types. Depending on what you're doing, these could mean the code you write is almost the same as Haskell, or radically different (especially from Haskell that generates infinite sequences lazily, and things like that).
 
3:32 AM
MT: Replace a semicolon (;) with a greek question mark (;) in your friend's C# code and watch them pull their hair out over the syntax error
 
g++ is better
says the actual error lol
 
Better than this?
main.cpp:19:6: error: expected ';' at end of declaration
    };
     ^
 
user1646075
priceless.
 
user1646075
are there any symbols that look like ( ) and =
 
Equals, probably. And it's Unicode! There's two of everything!
 
user1646075
3:39 AM
awesome! must find.
 
user1646075
⁼ 207C ₌ 208C
 
user1646075
I'm not finding a normal one.
 
user1646075
= FF1D. spoke too soon
 
== only slightly
 
user1646075
depends on font
 
user1646075
3:42 AM
oooo - 2474: ⑴
 
user1646075
so much choice
 
user1646075
( FF08 is good
 
Post that to hacker news as the new Heartbleed or something.
 
6:10 AM
poor guy
 
6:27 AM
There's a lot of discussion here about the purchase of some F-35s.
 
Just one of them is equivalent to a single year of our national budget. :(
 
80M dollar atm
400 billion is the total price of development
 
The highest priced I checked is ~$250M. Not sure if that includes maintenance and repairs.
 
wait, it's 140M according to the article I read.
80M is the future price promised by Lockheed
 
> A single Air Force F-35A costs a whopping $148 million. One Marine Corps F-35B costs an unbelievable $251 million. A lone Navy F-35C costs a mind-boggling $337 million. Average the three models together, and a “generic” F-35 costs $178 million.
@StackedCrooked The US pays for most of the bulk. Lockheed can provide lower prices to allies.
My mistake. Our country can buy two for a single year budget.
 
6:34 AM
Netherlands initially ordered 85 of them. But they dropped the order to 37 after the price increased.
That was a big order :)
 
That's a lot!
 
Military industry is crazy.
 
pentagon ordered 1700 of them
 
6:50 AM
lol
 
@MarkGarcia Interesting, but fatally flawed. A (recent) FPGA can be set up to do in-circuit re-programming, possibly as often as several times a second, with no input from the engineer at all. As such, most of the factors in that analysis have little bearing on reality.
 
> so you identified humans to be the limiting factor.
When I first read spartan device, I thought it was meant figuratively.
 
@StackedCrooked Nope--Spartan is the low-end Xilinx line (and their high-end FPGAs are "Virtex").
 
@JerryCoffin Just multiply it. ;)
I'm beginning to have interest on FPGAs.
 
user457812
I really need to stop putting services I intend to share with other people on my hooker-with-a-penis domains.
 
6:54 AM
Also perhaps worth mentioning that the analysis would be quite a bit different for some other types of FPGAs. Xilinx stores the programming in SRAM, so the FPGA proper gets reprogrammed every time you apply power. Microsemi (for one example) builds FPGAs that store the programming in Flash, so they only need reprogramming when you change the programming--but reprogramming is limited by the life of the Flash memory.
 
But the tooling is what I worry about.
 
@MarkGarcia You mean the software tools, or the hardware?
 
@JerryCoffin Software, but now that you said it, yeah hardware too (cost, availability).
 
@MarkGarcia Software is a free download from any of Xilinx, Altera, or Microsemi. Hardware obviously costs something, but a Basys 2 board (for one example) isn't terribly expensive either.
 
@JerryCoffin Hmm. That is actually reasonable enough.
The problem is that I'm sure not one retailer sells that here. And ordering in the US through a third-party courier costs a lot, and ships a month.
Also the stuff I'm connecting it to.
Welp still interested, but I'm giving it time.
 
7:04 AM
@Jefffrey ikr
 
Oh it has VGA.
"8 bit". Not sure if my monitor can support that. :P
 
@MarkGarcia It's analog output, so any monitor with a VGA input should be fine.
8-bit just signifies the number of different levels of analog output the DAC can produce. At a guess, that's really 8 bits per channel, which is what you normally see on VGA anyway.
 
@JerryCoffin lol right
Oops. Have to go somewhere. Bye all.
 
@MarkGarcia Later.
 
7:24 AM
node.js is in wheezy-backports but npm isn't
Makes sense
> ERROR: The certificate of `www.npmjs.org' is not trusted.
cool
 
@CatPlusPlus Well, would you trust anybody who pushed JS (or any URL with "JS" in it)? If so, what's wrong with you? :-)
 
lol node js
This thing is less useful than Idris
 

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