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12:00 PM
@MartinJames That's what I've been doing until now :)
 
@StackedCrooked Meh - carry on doing it until either it doesn't work correctly or you have delivered your app.
 
@Borgleader I probably won't be able to dilute the content as much though :(
 
Poco::Timer uses WaitForSingleObject.
And pthread_cond_timedwait for posix.
 
user784668
@StackedCrooked which, under the hood, uses the same timer as Sleep
 
I guess.
 
12:05 PM
I have treated this task quite comprehensively in an existing answer stackoverflow.com/questions/8358975/… - Will read your question now, though to see if there's anything in particular I can explain — sehe 57 secs ago
^ I already wrote that overlong answer, it seems
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit: I disagree that it is a de-reference. It is an alternative name (just like a reference variable). — Loki Astari 14 secs ago
Help! Loki doesn't know what dereferencing means.
 
Nothing.
It means nothing.
 
It's indirection in the standard
 
The standard uses "indirection" everywhere now.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes It's synagogue to derederence
 
12:07 PM
@sehe Indripidubly.
 
@StackedCrooked chrono library (C++11)? ... never used it myself though.
 
i should have answered instead of just commenting... if im ever to reach 10k rep
 
15
Q: Put something in the chat mod flag dialog to prevent incorrect flagging

GordonPlease put something into the mod flag dialog that explains or leads to an explanation of what kind of messages need moderator attention. I know there is a tooltip already but apparently a lot of people don't read it or understand what serious moderation issues are. My impression is that 8 out 1...

 
> eg, it pazzle me: [...] // some fileds...
some people need to learn to type
 
@Borgleader Oh, you mean Coshman :)
 
12:11 PM
@MartinJames ಠ_ಠ
 
user784668
This sounds like a feature that might improve chat, so best close the question as off topic. — thecoshman 1 min ago
 
user784668
 
:D
I please to aim
 
@Borgleader It's in reverse. The more rep you get, the more inclined you get to 'slam' a comment on it
 
@sehe seems I'm precocious in that regard
 
12:16 PM
Oh - how the f*** did I get a bronze badge for 'Java'? Shome mishtake shurely?
 
user784668
@MartinJames Yes, Shirley.
 
@Fanael Don't call me Shirley! :)
 
Xeo
Oh boy, today's what-if.xkcd
 
@Xeo oh, must read :D
 
precocious
I like it
 
12:20 PM
I have a stupid/lazy question. Is there an easy way to get valgrind to return not zero if it detected leaks and 0 if it found nothing suspicious ?
 
@MartinJames Shirley!
 
@MartinJames it's your own fault
 
@Xeo lol, the minecraft pick :P
 
@sehe I'll have to look back over my history. Maybe I answered java questions late at night while drunk.
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum --error-exitcode=<number> [default: 0] (that's overly lazy. man valgrind, /exit<Enter>
@MartinJames Which also explains about the non-negative rep gained
 
12:24 PM
@sehe Hehe LOL!
 
@sehe ty, just what I needed.
 
@sehe Help vampires and the feeding thereof.
 
how do I become one of you guys?
 
user784668
@Crowz sell your soul
 
a sacrifice or two will do the trick
 
Xeo
12:29 PM
Hm... is there a function in Haskell that yields Just a if a predicate fits, and Nothing otherwise?
 
start with your soul, and then try your firstborn if that's not enough
 
user784668
 
Xeo
hm
 
Oh... pilchards. I gotta go deal with my own barking dog. BFN.
 
@Xeo I wrote a postfix ? that yields (a -> Bool) -> a -> Either a a.
 
user784668
12:33 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes show
 
@Fanael I don't have a soul silly
 
user784668
@R.MartinhoFernandes Do you really need inl and inr?
 
@Fanael I used this for class and that matched our proof notation much closer.
 
I am proud of myself. :) I have figured out how to get CA certificates from Windows' certificate store: certmgr /add /c /all /s root /7 windows-certs.cer followed by openssl pkcs7 -inform DER -in windows-certs.cer -out windows-certs.pem -print_certs -text for conversion to PEM.
 
12:41 PM
@DeadMG I know. However, it was a 3 second sacrifice. Your comment cost me more energy.
 
also a "matrix" or a "double array" is an abstraction for the user, there is no such thing in memory or in C as a "double array", everything in memory is just in 1 dimension. — user2485710 2 mins ago
Is that actually true?
 
No.
No in C++.
 
I don't think so.
 
In C++, memory is an archipelago of memory location clusters.
 
Isn't it like one array of pointers to a bunch of other arrays?
 
12:48 PM
This guy is talking about C.
 
Ask H2CO3 then ;)
 
@TonyTheLion Question is tagged C++.
 
oh
> archipelago
I cannot find a definition that fits your use
 
@TonyTheLion A group of islands?
 
12:50 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit: int& y = *x is covered by 8.5.3 References paragraph 5. <quote>then the reference is bound directly to the initializer expression lvalue in the first case, and the reference is bound to the lvalue result of the conversion in the second case</quote> This is not a de-reference it is a binding of a reference. Which strengths my argument that * is not a de-reference but returns a reference. Ie it does not return the value it returns a reference to the value. To get the value you must de-reference the reference. — Loki Astari 29 mins ago
ITT "de-reference the reference"
 
What?
 
@DeadMG Seriously? I asked a one line question, I didn't ask for code or anything. Plus, I said I was being stupid/lazy. You know that time of the day when your code breaks and you have no idea why? I was there.. it's not like I'm some random guy who went to the chat for the first time or anything. </rant> wait, that wasn't funny at all :(( here
 
This guy can't be serious?
 
How can someone with so much C++ experience be so completely ignorant about the fundamental basics of pointers and references?
 
I don't know.
 
12:53 PM
@TonyTheLion in Polish it's simply "archipelag"
 
Loki is generally a smart dude, but I avoid discussing the standard with him because I know he has some "interesting" interpretations of it.
6
 
user784668
@LightnessRacesinOrbit he's faking the experience perhaps?
 
@Fanael No, he's not.
 
Xeo
It is true that *ptr is not a dereference, according to standard.
 
@Fanael He has a gold C++ badge!
 
12:53 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Loki as in the norse god?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit He may just have misunderstood it all his life. No one ever tried to correct him on it, and now he probably refuses to see that he's wrong.
 
@Xeo Firstly, I think the comment thread has gone way beyond that initial point. But, secondly, I still don't think that it says that at all.
 
@jalf As in the guy that has references and pointers all confused.
 
@jalf The dude quoted above. Used to go by "Martin".
 
@BenjaminGruenbaum You missed the part where I simply don't care.
 
user784668
12:55 PM
@Xeo sure, *ptr is as much of a dereference as x / y or int main() {} are
 
The standard does not use the word "dereference" anymore.
 
No, *ptr is dereferencing of the pointer ptr. "Dereference" means "unpointer this".
 
user784668
@LightnessRacesinOrbit no, *ptr is indirection, not derederence
 
The problem is that the definition of unary * doesn't say "dereference" normatively, and therefore all the other utterances of the word are strictly undefined
 
12:56 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Because the standard does not use the word "dereference" anymore.
It was purged.
 
@DeadMG I wouldn't have it any other way
 
@Fanael No, indirection is what you have between a pointer and a pointee.
 
Xeo
(FWIW, the word "dereference", imo, made little sense when it's not even about C++ references. I like "indirection" better.)
 
This "indirection operator" dereferences a pointer (or undoes the indirection)
 
user784668
@LightnessRacesinOrbit 5.3.1/1: "The unary * operator performs indirection"
 
12:57 PM
> Do not use any predefined predicates.
ffs Haskell has no predicates. lern 2 translate prolog problems
 
@Fanael Thanks for repeating that quote. Now would you care to join us in discussing it?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit The standard uses "perform indirection", "apply indirection", etc. Never "dereference".
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Correct.
@R.MartinhoFernandes No it says "dereference" in several places. Do a Ctrl+F. Unfortunately, it doesn't define it; we are left to use common sense and a wider understanding that dereferencing something is following a path of indirection from a pointer to its pointee.
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz odd, even?
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Not anymore. It was purged because it was used inconsistently.
 
12:58 PM
@Xeo well, it seems I have to write that one from scratch
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I don't cite drafts; the question discusses the language standard.
 
Language lawyering with that word just doesn't work. There is a reason it was purged.
 
Xeo
That was just on your point of "Haskell has no predicates"
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I can accept that.
 
12:59 PM
@Xeo alright, you win
 
Regardless, you can't disagree surely that this guy is full of shit and I need help in making him realise that it's not just me being silly:
> Which strengths my argument that * is not a de-reference but returns a reference. Ie it does not return the value it returns a reference to the value.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes, I agree that he is confused. I am trying to get you out of the fruitless discussion, though, because it revolves around a term that isn't properly defined/used in the standard.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes nods
For the record, the standard has never explicitly defined "dereference" (instead relying on a wider understanding of the term, as in to follow a path of indirection from pointer to pointee), though it is normatively mentioned in the definition for unary *. In the most recent C++14 draft, all utterances of "dereference" are removed, because there was this standard bug in that no text was sufficiently clear for me to prove to you how horribly wrong you are. — Lightness Races in Orbit 9 secs ago
non-normatively* dammit
 
ITT Lightness coming out of orbit to nuke a Netizen's misunderstandings
 
1:02 PM
@ShuklaSannidhya I could say I like that code, but I'd be telling fibs.
 
I think catch(...) is useless
prove me wrong?
 
@ShuklaSannidhya lisp is ok, but it's much less readable and writeable than Haskell IMHO
 
I think it hides bugs and that if your program is going to fail, it should just fail hard
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit To be clear, I don't cite newer drafts either (unless relevant, of course).
 
Xeo
@TonyTheLion Destructors, maybe?
 
1:03 PM
and not go into some silly catch handler that can't really do anything anyway, besides printing meaningless messages
 
I use N3337 which is the one with the editorial changes.
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion catch(...) to clean up stuff (think implementation of std::whatever_container) and rethrow?
 
@TonyTheLion void foo() { if (rand() % 2) throw 3; } void bar() { if (rand() % 3) throw "hello world!"; } try { foo(); bar(); } catch (...) { std::cout << "failed; don't care why\n"; }
 
@TonyTheLion so is bad code, but both happen to exist
 
@TonyTheLion You can use it in main to handle all errors.
 
1:04 PM
@TonyTheLion It's like a faux "base class" for primitives, in that it provides — quite literally — catch-all semantics when you're not constrained to a particular inheritance tree for exception types.
 
You can use it elsewhere to do something and rethrow.
 
Public crypto question: As a client to a SSL secured server (HTTPS or anything else), if I have a certificate for authentication then I must also have a private key as well. Is this right? Is there no configuration/situation where there is a client certificate but no private key?
 
@Fanael but you don't know what caused the problem inside that catch(...) in the first place
 
1:04 PM
@TonyTheLion There's std::current_exception() now.
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Oh, no.
WTF did I say.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit Yeah, brainfart. Forget it.
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion but why would std::whatever_container want to know?
 
@TonyTheLion and never log that this previously unseen error occurred?
 
@Fanael no, you'd want to know once inside a catch(...)
 
1:06 PM
@TonyTheLion You know something did, and control flow will leave the current function.
 
@thecoshman If your program crashes, isn't that a log in itself?
 
Just do what you gotta do.
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion that's my point: std::whatever_container does use catch(...) internally
 
catch (...)
{
// write error message
	std::cout << "Error: Unknown exception.\n\n";
this however is useless
and is what I'm having to deal with now :/
 
@TonyTheLion boost::diagnostic_information(boost::current_exception()) can work wonders.
 
1:07 PM
+1 ^
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes TIL
 
@TonyTheLion No, it's not useless. If some library function threw an int, and you didn't realise it, then you have a catch block at work rather than ugly unhandled exceptions forefully terminating your code
catch (...) is a worst-case, last-ditch, last-resort catch mechanism to prevent unhanded exceptions from fucking you over when you made a mistake in your exception handling code.
 
@TonyTheLion catch(...) is mostly useful when you need to do some manual cleanup, but don't actually want to handle the error.
it's completely necessary in, for example, the implementation of std::vector.
 
meh
I suppose if you're all saying I'm wrong, then I must be wrong.
 
actually catching the error inside a catch(...) is indeed of highly dubious usefulness
 
1:10 PM
I also tend to use it around some library function that I think might throw some exceptions, but when the function call is not totally necessary and I don't really give a fuck if it fails
 
<insert quote about driving in the wrong direction>
 
user784668
@TonyTheLion you're Tony The Wrong.
2
 
saves me caring about which exception type to catch when I'm not going to be doing anything fun with it anyway
 
@DeadMG yea, that's my point though, it doesn't provide useful debugging info.
which is really what I need
 
right, but that's different to being useless.
it has uses other than providing useful debugging information.
 
it would be impossible to implement the copy constructor, for example, of std::vector, without catch(...).
 
And there we have the crux of it.
 
@DeadMG wait wut?
 
by far errors of "can't deduce a for shit" are the hardest to solve
 
Apparently my experience with didn't teach me the right things then.
 
1:13 PM
ugh, Loki has been looking for UB by grepping the standard for "undefined behaviour"
lol
 
@TonyTheLion The spec of std::vector's copy constructor requires that it passes on any user-thrown exceptions from T's copy constructor. But it also has to do manual cleanup, since it's implementing the RAII object. So pretty much the only possible implementation is try { copy_array_contents(); } catch(...) { cleanup(); throw; }.
 
@LightnessRacesinOrbit that isn't that stupid as it seems :)
 
@DeadMG heh, interesting.
 
I guess that you possibly could design an RAII object that would function in this scenario without catch(...), but that's really just moving the burden from library implementer to compiler implementer, and there are other similar cases where refactoring it out is plain not very effective/useful.
 
*Main> split ['a'..'k'] 3
("abc","defghijk")
:3
 
1:15 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Yes, it is.
 
I've only used head and tail from builtins, and fuck I am not reimplementing those
 
so for almost all users then yes, catch(...) is of limited usefulness.
but it has a few very core, very necessary uses.
 
balls
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz They're easy anyways.
 
@thecoshman balls are not a use for catch(...)
 
1:16 PM
@LightnessRacesinOrbit: I quote the standard above: Section 5.3.1.1 Unary operator '*': The important part is the result is an lvalue **referring** to the object or function. The result of the * operator is an alias. — Loki Astari 1 hour ago
that means you get a reference, obviously.
 
@Xeo (h:_) and (_:t)? :P
i think LYAH had implementations of those
 
just doe gone deleted work. Note to self, make sure pushes work :(
 
whatever, I am doing exercises, not reimplementing wheels
 
Xeo
@BartekBanachewicz Ya
 
anyway I think I did that split from a wrong side, because I had to use ++
if I went from right side, I could append with : to the right part
hm, the solutions on H99 use recursion, and I've used a helper
 
1:21 PM
@wilx you don't need a private key per se as a client.
 
I need more patience.
Can I buy some?
 
Sorry, I'm using mine
 
@jalf Right. But if you have a client certificate, there is always a private key along with it, right?
 
@wilx ah yeah. Without that, the certificate is meaningless
 
1:23 PM
Ok.
 
Thank's for the clarification.
 
0
A: Boost Spirit grammar eol

seheFrom the comment // use only > for backtracking I get the impression that you're understanding this wrong. > will actually prevent backtracking past that point, because it mandates the next token. I've mocked up the presumed missing header: // #include "txt.hpp" // minimal mockup namespace...

@Borgleader you count the lines. Did I succeed?
 
@TonyTheLion Yes, but the purchase takes a long time.
 
Damn :/
 
1:25 PM
you can try to pray to the Goddess of hacking and good coding though
 
@sehe How long did it take you write that?
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz what about the places where the standard uses, say, "…, the behavior is undefined"?
 
Impatient people annoy me.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes I hope I haven't annoyed you too much then.
 
@Fanael eh
 
1:25 PM
@TonyTheLion You do the maths. I am at home and entertaining the kids too. Made them lemonade and sat outside in the sun for a while :0
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes you find yourself annoying?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes can I group stuff on :Gblame like Github does?
 
@TonyTheLion You're not impatient
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 I'm too patient for my own good.
 
Access to array elements is defined in terms of pointer maths. You already quoted 5.2.1 in your answer which states this. — Lightness Races in Orbit 7 mins ago
sigh I give up
 
1:26 PM
@sehe I would like to do that too - sounds like fun. No kids, no lemonade and no sun is a problem.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Hey, you switched jobs. And it hasn't even been 16 years, like me :)
 
@sehe How do you know that? I hope you're not judging that from an internet chat. :/
 
these repetitions could really simply disappear.
 
@TonyTheLion I am. Obviously
 
1:27 PM
Damn you
 
@TonyTheLion This was the start
I have treated this task quite comprehensively in an existing answer stackoverflow.com/questions/8358975/… - Will read your question now, though to see if there's anything in particular I can explain — sehe 1 hour ago
 
@BartekBanachewicz Dunno. Can you show me how GitHub does it?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes thanks for the confession, you see, patience is not a virtual sometimes
 
@BartekBanachewicz It's basically the output of git blame syntax highlighted. That output was more intended for machines, I think
 
Yeah, sometimes it's real.
 
1:28 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes open any file on GH and click blame. (top right, on the gray titlebar)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes :)
 
Deranged penguins (also a great accent)
 
@sehe well it's a plugin for humans IIRC :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz I don't think so.
 
crap.
I'd create a fork if I knew VimL
 
1:31 PM
So I started this blog thing. We'll see how it goes.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Don't. Really.
File an issue.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes hm, yeah! he should do shit for me! :)
 
@BartekBanachewicz That is what he recommends.
 
@EtiennedeMartel If its going to be about ponies, I'm not reading it.
 
Speaking of blogs, the robot's blog is starting to get dusty :P
 
1:32 PM
@TonyTheLion It's going to be about anything, including ponies.
I've got a bunch of subjects in the pipeline.
 
Inb4 Ponies, Friendship and Magic
 
There are so many newb moderators around these days ...
either that or I didn't pay enough attention before
 
> Beyond that, don't be shy about asking before patching. What takes you hours might take me minutes simply because I have both domain knowledge and a perverse knowledge of Vim script so vast that many would consider it a symptom of mental illness. On the flip side, some ideas I'll reject no matter how good the implementation is. "Send a patch" is an edge case answer in my book.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I support gay marriage!
 
@Telkitty猫咪咪 Good for you.
 
user784668
1:35 PM
@Telkitty猫咪咪 care level = 0
 
@EtiennedeMartel Whatcha using?
(Found a bug already)
 
I google 'std::function heroics' and I find one of my answers :( Anyone knows where the original quote regarding optimization/inlining I'm thinking of is from?
 
some template off the web probably
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes me too
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes alright then
 
1:38 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Same thing as you.
Still learning about it. Hence the bugs.
 
oho, right, I should install jekyll
 
@EtiennedeMartel Ok. Use absolute links (from root /) unless you really want relative ones.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Alright.
 
Clicking "about" in the first post doesn't lead to /about, but to firstpost/about
 
Xeo
So, I just tried the Oculus Rift
 
1:40 PM
@Xeo oooh.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Fixed.
 
@Xeo How was it? :O
 
I knew what you meant the instant you said about it.
Anyway. I gotta go to work.
Thanks for the feedback.
 
can't take criticism :p
 
shush
 
Ell
1:44 PM
I think I might install 4.3
 
Xeo
@Borgleader Cool.
Very cool.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I give it two posts till you get bored :P
 
@Ell I have just installed gem. My system is infected.
 
1:48 PM
@Ell 4.3 what?
 
user784668
Hi, cat.
 
Ell
Android :3
 
I already have it
 
Ell
@bartek harhar you gave in to temptation ;)
 
ffs I've typed gem install jekyll and it took it LITERALLY 40 seconds to output it won't work
I knew ruby is a slow piece of crap, but I didn't expect that much really
@Ell I just need jekyll, fuck ruby
 
Ell
1:51 PM
I've tried to install it 3 times but I'll have to flash it manually
You think the 40 seconds is due to ruby and not network io? :P
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes long winded... but interesting
 
@Ell I'd expect that
 
Ell
You'd expect it was ruby o.O
?
 
yeah
oh amazing it crashed again
for fucks sake
jekyll devs Y U ruby. YYYYYYYY
 
user784668
fuck Ruby
 
Ell
1:55 PM
Why did it crash? O.o
 
fuck it forever
useless crap
 
Ell
Man. Is it just me who's had flawless experiences with ruby?
 
@Ell because it's bugged somewhere?
 
user784668
@Ell because Ruby's most important feature is crashing
 
@Ell from what I read on the interwebz, yeah.
 
1:56 PM
@thecoshman I think it's all bollocks, but I like the fact that someone took the effort to craft such theory.
 
pretty much everyone else diss it for something
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Interesting indeed.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz everyone disses the language they're using, all languages suck
 
Specifically, the parts about coming before Melkor are fishy.
 
Ell
@bartek maybe if you weren't so intent on hating ruby you'd have a more pleasant experience with it :3
 
1:58 PM
@Fanael Yeah, but it crashes slowly compared to other languages.
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz what's worse: D3D or Ruby?
 
@Ell what? How does my intent to anything change the fact the damn package installer crashes?
@Fanael I am not hating Dx anymore
 
user784668
@BartekBanachewicz you're not Bartek then
 
Is the output of objdump appropriate (e.g. grokkable enough) to substantiate claims of improved code?
00000000004005e0 <main>:
  4005e0:       b8 78 00 00 00          mov    $0x78,%eax
  4005e5:       c3                      retq
  4005e6:       66 90                   xchg   %ax,%ax
^ is this understandable? I don't typically hack at that level
 

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