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12:00 PM
lol, C++ lambdas beautiful.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Everything but. Even std::bind is prettier IMO.
 
Even Java's lambdas will be prettier.
 
We had a C++ course at work. When I discussed lambda with the lecturer he mentioned that he finds that they don't encourage code reuse (compared to functors).
It's not really something I'm concerned about, but perhaps a valid point.
 
Writing functors breaks the flow.
You can always refactor lambdas into a functor, if they repeat.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes What the fuck are you smoking and why isn’t it a capital offense to possess it?
 
12:06 PM
Java have polymorphic lambdas, C++ doesn't. QED.
 
C++’s lambdas are ugly by necessity. Java’s lambdas are ugly just because.
@StackedCrooked Although there’s a point there, conventional expressions also don’t encourage reuse. So what? If an expression / lambda gets reasonably complex, refactor it out (and maybe reuse it). Otherwise, don’t
 
@StackedCrooked No it isn't.
suggesting that you can't re-use a lambda is just as bad as suggesting you can't re-use a continue statement.
I mean, technically valid, but it's quite irrelevant- they're not designed to be used in contexts where re-use is desirable.
 
@DeadMG Well, a lambda is always vastly more complex than a continue statement, simply syntactically
 
@DeadMG Oh, but... You can!
      goto do_continue;

      /* ... */
      goto do_continue;

      do_continue:
           continue;
 
syntax is irrelevant.
 
12:12 PM
@DeadMG Well, that is of course total bullshit
 
@DeadMG So, program lisp already!
 
@sehe Thanks, but I've got semantics in C++ I want to keep.
@KonradRudolph Then exactly what meaning does syntax have on whether or not you can re-use a lambda?
 
@DeadMG Not on reusability maybe, but syntax plays a role when considering whether to use a lambda at all.
 
Or C++.
 
@KonradRudolph You're right. It has nothing to do with, y'know, needing a function object that uses local variables, or anything like that.
 
12:16 PM
@DeadMG Those are also considerations. Don’t try to distort my argument.
 
uh, the only consideration.
 
@DeadMG For you.
 
if you need such a thing, then you need it, regardless of what syntactic form it takes.
and if you don't, then you don't, also irrelevant of it's syntactic form.
 
@DeadMG And that, as I said before, is b*s
 
@DeadMG You never need C++ lambdas, because they are by definition syntactic sugar.
 
12:17 PM
@KonradRudolph You present no arguments for that.
 
I do
 
@CatPlusPlus dynamic languages anyone?
 
I disagree.
there might be more than one way to express what a lambda means, but the difference yields real positive benefits
 
What about them?
 
suck a duck
 
12:18 PM
@DeadMG Because I find your position utterly uninteresting and not worth debating, and I have other use of my time
 
ah
well that's OK, I enjoy winning, even if it is by default.
 
@CatPlusPlus can't you create types at runtime in some more dynamic languages?
 
Yes, what does it have to do with Hell++?
 
Well, in Hell++ you could do a dismemberment.
obviously
 
Bah, I passed arguments in the wrong order. Stupid Strings.
 
12:28 PM
lol
 
Why am I getting HTTP code 202 from that stupid server.
 
because it's stupid.
 
And why does this crap code mark it as NOT_ALLOWED.
 
What language has the prettiest lambda's? Without failing to provide features that is? C#?
 
12:31 PM
@rubenvb Haskell.
And "lambdas" for crying out loud.
 
@CatPlusPlus everything in Haskell is a lambda.
 
Not really, no.
 
Defenetly not rubenvb. It might look like it but it sure isn't.
 
kk
Haskell is a big unknown for me.
 
meh other languages, I am stuck with Java :(
 
12:34 PM
I started a tutorial once but never finished.
 
@CatPlusPlus Seriously? I find their syntax a bit convoluted. C# has the syntactically “prettiest” lambdas IMHO.
 
What's convoluted about their syntax?
 
=> : no clutter
 
There was actually a bit of an argument about it rubenvb. I think it was on the haskell café mailing list a while back.
 
@thecoshman You code only at work?
 
12:35 PM
The Haskell lambdas have a disoriented backslash standing in the middle of the landscape, wondering how it got there
(and yes, I get that it’s a stylised lambda)
 
@CatPlusPlus recently yeah, I've been really distracted by other things at home
 
Sucks to be you.
@KonradRudolph One-character introducer is a clutter?
 
that and I am kind of having some sort of stand off with code
 
@CatPlusPlus Let me answer by showing you a single character: ;
hell, yes
 
(\ x -> x + y) is pretty close to (λ x . x + y) ..
And I wholly prefer the arrow over the dot...
 
12:37 PM
Semicolon as a statement ender is not the same as introducer for lambdas.
 
And you can use a lambda instaid of a backslash if you prefer...
 
In fact, it's not remotely related.
 
@HaskellElephant Pretty close, yes. Not necessarily a good thing though. As you said yourself, the original notation is not ideal
@CatPlusPlus I agree, that was just to answer your specific question
 
how do you even type a lambda, I don't want to use a greek keyboard layout
 
@melak47 some ALT+numbers shortcut :P
 
12:39 PM
Create your own.
λλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλλ
 
@KonradRudolph , well the haskell lambda notation really fits in with the rest of the syntax...
 
or ctrl-alt-L
 
@CatPlusPlus But I agree that a statement introducer is actually a nice feature. So I take my criticism back. I’d prefer a keyword (or I’ll just use λ) but what the heck
Incidentally, why is there a Unicode letter called “lambda”?
 
Graah, stupid switch-case pass-through. Whoever invented that was a moron and everyone who followed are a moron, too.
@KonradRudolph Because it's a Greek letter?
 
@CatPlusPlus No, that’s “lamda” not “lambda”
 
12:41 PM
The link is to "latin small letter lambda with stroke" ...
 
Okay, my question should have been the other way round:
 
@KonradRudolph the greek letter is "lambda"
 
why is the Unicode letter called “lamda”, not “lambda”?
 
12:42 PM
because unicode descriptions of characters suck
 
And no, it’s not a typo on the website
 
> Lambda (uppercase Λ, lowercase λ; Greek: Λάμβδα or Λάμδα, lamda or lamtha)
 
The capital Unicode char is "lambda"
It's a fucking typo in the Unicode standard.
 
It's transliteration.
 
oh wait
there's two description strings
well, the "old name" has the proper spelling.
wtf...
 
12:45 PM
@rubenvb Hmm, not in the OS X character finder (but that’s of course not canonical, just weird that they changed the description strings)
 
I find it odd they would remove removed the "b" from the name...
 
Well, according to Wikipedia, the confusion goes back to the Greek spelling (Λάμβδα or Λάμδα) and (I infer) is probably due to confusion about the proper pronunciation as well
 
another ancient Greek mystery it seems.
A reason why we should just write λ and not say "lambda"
 
If only stupid chat didn't steal AltGr+K, where I keep my lambda.
 
lol
and tex would be no help either
 
12:53 PM
@CatPlusPlus It does? That’s pretty evil, why would it capture AltGr? (not on Windows)
 
\lambda
@CatPlusPlus does it capture ctrl+alt+k?
 
AltGr is Ctrl+Alt.
 
@CatPlusPlus ah, I never knew
Still, why does the chat capture Alt?
 
Why? Fuck knows.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think it can be seen as a different event though...
 
12:55 PM
@KonradRudolph Shortcut for indenting entire message.
 
it indents by four spaces here on altgr-k
 
@CatPlusPlus Hmm. I thought that shortcuts’d only use the command key (ctrl)
okay, I’ve been off Windows for too long
 
@thecoshman You have to go down to raw input, and browsers don't do that because why would they.
 
@CatPlusPlus I have no idea :S
 
I don't know what it binds, but Windows implements AltGr as Ctrl+Alt, and you cannot bind one but not the other
 
12:56 PM
okay, that makes sense
pity though
maybe ask Benni or Mark to check for Alt explicitly in the chat code?
sounds like a good feature request
 
is that possible?
 
Or get rid of the stupid shortcut, because I'm pretty sure nobody actually needs it anyway.
Also or ignored. That's how feature requests end.
 
¬_¬ I don't poor quality for streaming a talk... but could at least keep consistent so I can get used to it
 
grr, SO has made their bot tests more often
 
Does anyone know how i can disable the "Error List" from popping up when my build finishes with errors ?
 
1:04 PM
sucks
 
Don't make errors.
 
@helmus because there is only one IDE
 
@helmus Write a script that closes it every time it pops up :P
 
it's supper irritating, the relevant errors are displayed in my output list, the one in the error list are completely useless !
right before my build finishes i'm reading my output window and then 2 seconds later the Error List takes focus
 
@thecoshman I don't think he registered this as sarcasm.
 
1:07 PM
Gosh, corporate reality sucks -.-
 
i'm not proficient with sarcasm
 
Did they take your red stapler?
 
> some sort of object instance manager singleton class
le ewww
 
@DeadMG why? the concept itself seems fine
 
It certainly doesn't on my WinXP box
It's just like normal alt, except for composition with numpad
 
1:08 PM
it's an "object instance manager singleton"
I think the "ewww"'s cause is self-evident
 
any particular problems with that?
 
Managers and singletons.
 
#1: it's a singleton
#2: it's a manager
 
Weren't singleton made to create managers?
 
They make 20 times as much as you
 
1:09 PM
@sehe What layout do you use?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Singletons weren't made for anything.
 
@CatPlusPlus EN/US I suppose. Lemme check
 
Software, not hardware.
 
and they certainly don't serve any useful purpose
 
@SamDeHaan well fuck, I better go film an advert in every language and broadcast it 24/7 so that world can know how I was actually being sarcastic
 
1:10 PM
@CatPlusPlus yup^
 
@thecoshman That seems like the appropriate response, get to work.
 
K, can you please switch response style to "informative" and tell me Why are object entity managers implemented as singletons bad?
 
Or should I post it as a question?
 
@BartekBanachewicz On [P.SE]
 
1:11 PM
> The right Alt key is usually an equivalent of the AltGr key, as both of them share the same scancode and are indistinguishable from software. However, on some keyboards it may not be the case, or (most often on laptop keyboards) the right Alt key may be missing altogether. To allow the specific functionality of AltGr when typing non-English text on such keyboards, Windows began to allow it to be emulated by pressing the Alt key together with the Control key:
 
@sehe [P.SE] = ?
 
@BartekBanachewicz I have. Because they're Singletons, and because they're managers.
 
@BartekBanachewicz "Manager" implies lack of clear responsibility design, "singleton" implies global state, tight coupling, dependency hiding and potential problems with concurrent access.
 
My results came.
 
1:12 PM
TMI.
 
I can't believe I got an A* in math and physics. I was expecting to fail those
 
Now you can find your way home.
 
yeah. :D
 
Ok, I will read about this. Concurrency issues with singletons seem fair, still, I'm not convinced by lack of clear responsibility design
 
@CatPlusPlus Huhu.
 
1:15 PM
What does manager do?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Singletons fuck up your testability.
 
@ApprenticeHacker congrats. What are you studying?
 
I was studying O levels.
 
@EtiennedeMartel the question was about managers and singletons. The lack of responsibility flaw was thrown at managers
 
> If you are a ladygoon, your bra is a great place to keep a newborn kitten warm and snug. I've heard they have a better survival rate when cuddled excessively, too.
lucky kittens...
 
1:17 PM
@ApprenticeHacker So what is that... Secondary education or something? British education is confusing to me (and the rest of the world)...
 
It's been a while since I've used a singleton. Anytime I need some sort of "manager" object, I just inject it in the classes that need it.
 
@rubenvb yeah. You do two courses to graduate from highschool. First it's O levels, which I've now done. Next its A Levels. Which I will start in september
 
Two exams after high school? What a load of crap.
 
@EtiennedeMartel What do you mean by "injecting" in the class that need it (I think I really should post it as a question).
 
@ApprenticeHacker when you from? the 60's? it;s been GCSE for bloody decades
 
1:19 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Dependency injection.
 
@CatPlusPlus during high-school. Not after it.
 
Although I do it by hand, but there are frameworks that do it automatically.
 
@ApprenticeHacker Still crap.
 
@thecoshman I've told you this like 15 times before. I live in a fucking british colony, and in colonies they still stick to O' Levels.
 
Them colonists.
 
1:20 PM
> However the O-level is still used in many Commonwealth countries, such as Mauritius, Singapore and Trinidad and Tobago. Some British schools also reverted to exams based on the O-levels ~ Wikipedia
damn. I hate being 40 years behind from Britain. :'(
 
@EtiennedeMartel Just to be sure I understood it correctly : The class should be constructed with an information where to get the data needed, rather than contact singletons directly
 
Yes.
Make dependencies a part of the interface.
 
@rubenvb it's simple. We start in the school year we have our forth birthday. We do 'reception' then years one to six in primary school. Move onto secondary school, years seven to nine are just 'normal' years. Ten and eleven we do 'GCSE', our mandatory exams. You are then free if you wish. A lot of people will stay on at school and do 'A levels' as year 12 and 13. Some people go to college and do equivalent exams. Then, you can go on Uni and get your degree. There is a load of equivalent stuff
@ApprenticeHacker AFAIk this would only be the second time, at a push
 
@CatPlusPlus I wonder why the heck it weren't mentioned in any of the books I read about design patterns. Or maybe I just didn't get it? It's one sentence, after all, that sums it all up.
 
@CatPlusPlus it's two tiers. The first is mandatory, usually around ten subjects, then second is optional, usually around three r four subjects
 
1:25 PM
@BartekBanachewicz Because design pattern books tend to be written by idiots.
If you hear anyone say "design pattern", run for the hills. Or mock mercilessly, I guess.
 
Duh. Nice to know. So is the Lounge/SO the only source of viable information?
 
@BartekBanachewicz Because books about design patterns don't teach you about good design.
 
@BartekBanachewicz of course not
 
@BartekBanachewicz No, but you have to be really critical of things you read.
 
Well, design, not only patterns. I went too far. But still, the statement applies.
 
1:27 PM
@BartekBanachewicz No, but be careful about stuff writen by excitable Java programmers who think that any problem can be solved with the appropriate application of a design pattern.
 
@CatPlusPlus But how I can be critical if, for example, I am learning about singletons. How can I tell if the article/book is complete crap or not?
 
In computer programming, SOLID (Single responsibility, Open-closed, Liskov substitution, Interface segregation and Dependency inversion) is a mnemonic acronym introduced by Robert C. Martin in the early 2000s that stands for five basic principles of object-oriented programming and design. The principles when applied together intend to make it more likely that a programmer will create a system that is easy to maintain and extend over time. Overview {| class="wikitable" style="width: auto; font-size: 95%; table-layout: fixed; line-height:1.25; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;" |- ! In...
 
People who are smart enough to understand and actually use design patterns properly don't fap to the idea that they used design pattern.
@BartekBanachewicz Live and learn.
 
@EtiennedeMartel My best design book has (SR, OC, LS) I believe. So first three of them.
Gotta look at these latter 2
 
Easy way to spot a DP wannabe: they start their questions with "what design pattern should I use here".
 
1:30 PM
@BartekBanachewicz you do not need to be told that a burning coal should not picked up with your bare hand, do you?
 
Single responsibility is easy: make classes that do one thing.
 
@thecoshman Well, nope.
 
@thecoshman Who has bear hands ? :p
 
@CatPlusPlus When I wrote it has them I meant I am familiar with them.
 
@kbok shut up :(
 
1:31 PM
 
@BartekBanachewicz If it's in favour, then it's complete crap.
 
@KonradRudolph Erm, Java's lambdas won't be ugly.
 
@thecoshman I see. In Belgium there's a large difference between ASO ("general secondary education") and TSO ("technical secondary education). Both are 6-7 years though. Both can lead to higher education.
 
I feel kinda bad, because introduced the singletons to some fellow coders. I am afraid I will need to "fix" them now.
 
@BartekBanachewicz Then again, @DeadMG and @CatPlusPlus are notorious haters around here, so take what they say with a grain of salt.
2
 
1:32 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes Not? Did they change the syntax since the last time I looked?
 
I'm hardly unique in my hatred of Singletons and Maagers.
 
@EtiennedeMartel You keep using that word, I don't think it means what you think it means.
 
@CatPlusPlus "Everything sucks" is pretty much a clear sign that you might be one.
 
I think being good engineer implies being a hater. If you don't think everything sucks, you might stop verifying.
 
@kbok :'(
 
1:33 PM
@EtiennedeMartel Not everything sucks
 
@KonradRudolph It's like C#'s, except with thin arrow instead of fat arrow.
 
@BartekBanachewicz We are all somebody else's hater. I mean, most of my friends think I'm a hater because I tend to criticize what I like instead of blindly liking it like a fanatic.
 
I will be mercilessly critical about everything I use.
 
@EtiennedeMartel the dead sea does not enough have enough salt to take with their advice
 
1:34 PM
@thecoshman Come on, it's FUNNY.
 
@CatPlusPlus That's the point.
 
Because if you don't, you're not a good programmer.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Yeah, because these tools wouldn't be caught dead taking a feature from C#.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Ah. I thought there was something else in there as well. Earlier drafts of Java had that. But they probably didn’t change the invocation syntax, did they? I.e. f.()
 
@KonradRudolph They did.
 
1:34 PM
I haven't been doing this for past decade for nothing, eh!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes So what’s it now?
 
It goes through an interface.
 
… i.e.? You can’t call it with function call syntax, you need to use a method name?
 
Yes. But it's Java, what'd you expect.
 
@CatPlusPlus Verbosity?
 
1:37 PM
It's still better than C++, because it's polymorphic.
 
@CatPlusPlus To be honest, that’s a reasonable design. I’m not mad.
 
I don't see the need for singletons: I just create a single instance in main or wherever it suits me and pass that along.
not that that's any better, but hey, programwide configuration works that way
 
If you make configuration a singleton, then there's no hope for you.
 
@KonradRudolph A lambda can be "converted" to any interface with a single non-defaulted method. The code that uses the lambda is just regular code using the appropriate interfaces (they're adding Function<...> interfaces and stuff).
Only the client cares about lambdas.
 
@rubenvb It is better, because you can pass something else if you're not running it from a main (like in a unit test).
 
1:41 PM
@R.MartinhoFernandes That is quite smart!
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That's actually a fairly helpful thing to do.
 
@CatPlusPlus ¬_¬ guess what I have to put up with
 
Alright, alright, who at Oracle decided to hire competent language designers?
 
@EtiennedeMartel The oracle at Oracle oracled to hire an oracle programmer that could oracle oracles
in dutch that's actually a valid sentence
 
Gosling left for Google. :v
 
1:43 PM
@CatPlusPlus I wouldn't call him "competent". More like "full of himself".
 
@KonradRudolph I know it's incredibly surprising if you had seen the previous proposals. Those were pretty much piles of crap on top of garbage.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I didn't call him competent.
:
 
There was a time when some were considering making return non-local, i.e. return from the function where the lambda was created, instead of returning from the lambda.
If that sounds ridiculous, I have conveyed the right idea.
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes That is just awesome beyond words
 
1:45 PM
"Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo" is a grammatically valid sentence in the English language, used as an example of how homonyms and homophones can be used to create complicated linguistic constructs. It has been discussed in literature since 1972 when the sentence was used by William J. Rapaport, an associate professor at the University at Buffalo. It was posted to Linguist List by Rapaport in 1992. It was also featured in Steven Pinker's 1994 book The Language Instinct as an example of a sentence that is "seemingly nonsensical" but grammatical. The sen...
 
COMEFROM
2
 
@thecoshman lolz
 
return return expression; :P
 
return return throw
 
throw throw throw throw throw throw throw throw throw throw expression;
 
1:49 PM
on error resume next
 
@EtiennedeMartel I would say he is competent. IMO, the problems with Java stem primarily from intent, not incompetence. Sun was large enough at the time, they wanted to create a language that "equalized" productivity to the point that whoever had the most programmers would win. The result was Java.
 
@DeadMG Ah, good times.
@CatPlusPlus Gosh, stop it.
I think I can say that On Error Resume Next is the worst language construct abomination ever.
Please, don't prove me wrong.
 
I don't know, pass-through in switch comes pretty close.
Also C is basically that.
 
what does On Error Resume Next actually do?
 
And C++ if you turn exceptions off.
@DeadMG It catches the error, ignores it and then moves on to the next instruction!
 
1:52 PM
@DeadMG Within the function, ignores all errors.
 
ah
 
It's a global switch for the entire scope or something like that.
 
so basically a try { ... } catch(...) {}
 
@DeadMG On each line.
 
On every expression.
 
1:52 PM
lolwot
for every statement?
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes Let me advise that you never read anything about PL/I.
 
hey, let's use null pointers when allocation fails!
 
ermahgerd
 
@JerryCoffin I have managed to steer clear of that so far. Thanks for the warning.
> It has been used by various academic, commercial and industrial organizations since it was introduced in the 1960s, and continues to be actively used as of 2011.
:(
Goggles time.
1
Q: Confusing pointer

tuğrul büyükışıkWhen i use the spiral rule, i am confused at below line within 10 spiral steps. Is there a quicker way? const void * const ** const volatile *** const **** _foo_; compiles in VC++ 2010 Such as ptr is a pointer to a pointer to a pointer to a pointer and all of them are const void but 2 of them...

 
1:58 PM
This could be hardest of all pointers. When i learn this, other pointers shouldn confuse me — tuğrul büyükışık 3 mins ago
 
Just a friendly reminder: downvotes on questions are free (i.e. you don’t lose reputation). So use them
there are so many crap questions out there
 
derp.
 
@KonradRudolph huh? wow. Didn't know that XD
 
(hehe, perfect timing; that was actually not meant for the question posted just above, but it fits it perfectly)
 
@R.MartinhoFernandes an eyesore, woah that's fugly
 

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