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11:00 PM
I'd rather use bash than php
 
Anyway, I really hope you both finish your degrees in the near future!
 
Exams are in September, and I expect to show up this time :)
 
@ManofOneWay Not gonna happen
 
@DeadMG How many jobs have you applied for now?
 
strictly, one, but I have two more lined up when I write up the cover letters
writing stuff that isn't technical isn't really my strong point
 
11:02 PM
@sehe Well, the idea would be a file system that let you define a file as containing a record structure, and (for example) do searches for specific records based on the values in the fields. Just for example, this would make the job they're dealing with fairly trivial -- define a field "language version" (or whatever) and have two records for std::string, with with version = 3 and the other with version = 11. Putting it in the FS makes it easy to add things like cache hinting as well.
 
I've updated my CV if you want to have a look
 
naw, I'm good
 
^^^ E.g., pre-read/cache only XXX, because that's the only parts I'll used.
 
@JerryCoffin Are you describing WinFS? Or document databases (NoSQL )?
 
@sehe Well, there have been various attempts, mostly misguided and messy. WinFS is impossible to describe for the same reason it failed: nobody was sure what it was, should be or accomplish (or more accurately, everybody was sure, but they all disagreed and changed their minds almost weekly).
 
11:04 PM
@JerryCoffin I'm all for nextgen FS-es like that, but I can't see fundamental OS facilities like loading/launching to be based on that. The dependency would be, impure to me intuitively. And the storage space for stuff like WinSxS would balloon from 20Gb (on bare Win7-64 install!) to ... double that?
@ManofOneWay Schrödingers cat called. He mandates you revert the CV because he doesn't 'want to have a look'.
 
Xeo
> This is the fallacy of PHP, too many people are productive in PHP
 
People, don't quote things from nowhere without links. Only I am allowed to do that.
 
Xeo
Can't you guess were that came from?
 
Ell
I like the idea of what @jerrycoffin is describing a lot. you could store encoding in meta data
 
2
A: Non-static Data Member Initializers / Calling constructors of std::vector

refpIs there any hack I could use? If your only goal is to not having to "explicitly" specify the type twice you could use decltype to provide some aid in your quest: class Obj { std::vector<int> v1 = decltype(v1) (2,3); }; Also remember that typedef/using is a great way of not having to ...

 
11:08 PM
Ok, finish Size matters, part II, or more Unicode madness?
 
what do you guys think of this revised answer, does it contain anything wrong/misleading?
 
@sehe A narrow-minded viewpoint. Outside of Unix-like systems (and in this respect, that includes Windows) such things have been around nearly forever. I'm not sure why storage space would necessarily increase at all. It might in a few cases (fairly typical when you replace special- with general-purpose facilities) but I wouldn't expect 2:1, at least in any typical case.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What's size matters part 1?
 
(apparently the previous version didn't satisfy that many people.. except OP and me)
 
@DeadMG A blog post I posted last week.
 
11:09 PM
linky?
 
oh that stuff
 
People were discussing penises when Feeds dropped that here.
 
user1174868
Sorry I forgot who linked me to pascal's trinagle yesterday, I don't understand how it works. It works on rows and columns and one of the conditions is if the row is equal to the column then the output is 1 but that doesn't seem true
 
@CatPlusPlus oooh, you left us :(
 
11:10 PM
That discussion was a trainwreck going nowhere anyway.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What's the use of std::pair if you can use std::tuple with 2 values?
 
guys.. I'm trying to satisfy @litb here, I need your assistance!
 
@ManofOneWay None.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes why does it exist?
 
Historical reasons.
 
11:11 PM
ah
 
It existed before std::tuple was possible.
 
@JerryCoffin Are you ignoring the idea of kernel depending on non-standard FS-specific extensions? You're right that I'm guessing about storage bloat. But, considering the inordinate amount of storage currently in WinSxS I'm not entirely out of whack suggesting that more engineering might lead to more resource usage.
 
@CatPlusPlus A cat fight
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Unercode mawdness
 
 
11:12 PM
My main point is: good OS-es are simple.
 
@ManofOneWay If the facilities for standard tuples had existed at the time, std::pair would never have been invented.
 
@JerryCoffin Well, I'll just kick back and see what the gods come up with. At least I gave it my predictions.
 
@ManofOneWay @RMartinhoFernandes well.. std::tuple doesn't have .first, .second...
 
@DeadMG Ok. Will do :)
@refp It has get<0> and get<1>...
 
@NikiC BTW, I've opened that "good parts" PDF and Chrome shows several blank pages. So that's fitting and hilarious, too.
 
11:12 PM
Which, btw, also work on pairs and arrays.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I'm just pointing out the differences
 
@CatPlusPlus I knew that you'd like it :D
 
I never said that you couldn't get the first and second value out of a std::tuple
 
@sehe The point is that they wouldn't be non-standard -- you'd standardize them.
 
aaargh
why am I at home?
horrible cup and string internets
 
11:13 PM
@DeadMG Free food
 
Dead needs his pirated TV.... /shakes
 
But really, arguments like "they write code for implementation so they must be LANGUAGE EXPERTS" only tell me that I would have to explain everything, and I'm not in a mood for lecturing.
 
@sehe Yeah, we'll see what happens. Based on experience, probably not much. Virtually nothing currently has (for example) nearly as nice an FS as VMS had 30+ years ago.
 
@JerryCoffin Yeah. Insert mandatory XKCD link.
 
Also funny that nobody did respond to how long they're using PHP.
 
11:15 PM
@JerryCoffin True that. OpenVMS FTW
 
user1174868
I don't understand how you find the column in a triangle
 
Screw that.
Let's do something fun.
 
Ell
vmsfs?
 
@Jordan Oh hi. Nice evening to you too
@Jordan I've a terrible itch in my left nostril
 
@CatPlusPlus Just so you know, I don't think your argumentation was particularly convincing either ;) But that's to be expected :)
 
11:15 PM
in PHP, 2 mins ago, by rlemon
I don't like the C++ room. those guys are strange.
Compliments!
 
Ell
someone please link Wikipedia because it takes ages to search my phone :L
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Success!
 
@NikiC Which one? I can try to clarify.
Just, you know, without "BUT YOU'RE CLEARLY INEXPERIENCED" crap.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes I thought this was no C++ room? :D
 
@JerryCoffin Allthough it is entirely possible that some OS will trigger a revolution. I just don't see Microsoft pulling it off, since they're internally dampening all their potential revolutions by their everlasting fetish with backwards compatibility. They might one day follow one vision for the future, and succeed :)
 
11:17 PM
@CatPlusPlus Nearly all (all?) arguments in the blog post ;) But I doubt that further discussing them will convince either side ;)
 
@CatPlusPlus To which you kept responding, which is likely the unconvincing part :)
 
Also tell them that I used ASP.NET a tiny leetle bit, and are not equating security with language, but rather make fun of badly written software used as an example of PHP success.
 
@sehe I think they're wasting all their revolution potential on pseudo-revolutions like Metro.
 
Metro sucks
 
user1174868
@sehe It is your ego trying to get out
 
11:18 PM
@NikiC Well, we can try, if you promise no handwaving.
 
@sehe Balmer has made such a mess of MS that I'm a little surprised they can still manage to tie their collective shoes.
 
What's this shoe-tying you're talking about?
 
in PHP, 33 secs ago, by Levi Morrison
^ Does he not realize that some of the greatest programmers who've been around for years use interpreted languages?
Oh gods.
 
I haven't tied my shoes in years.
 
@CatPlusPlus Do you want to discuss this here or somewhere else?
 
11:19 PM
@NikiC We can make a separate room, to keep HOMES clean.
 
PHP bashing is often on-topic here, but yeah, it's probably better to do so outside.
 
But really, do I really have to explain what a strong type system means.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Okay, "zip up after urinating", if you prefer.
 
Ell
does anyone know why sqlite has dynamic typing?
 
11:20 PM
Wut.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes @ManofOneWay ideone.com/rVBPP
 
@CatPlusPlus Though arguing isn't fun if no-one is listening :P
 
meh.. what happened to my fixed font
hold up
 
@refp ideone.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm about to.. or well, I'm finished
 
user1174868
11:21 PM
Do you count columns from the left or the right? I am not sure what kind of program wizardry this is
 
ideone.com/rVBPP std::pair vs std::tuple, try doing the equivalent to this with a std::tuple!
 
user1174868
actually I am just going to send this guy an angry email for putting a bad example on the internet
 
Ell
sqlite has "dynamic typing" you can insert an arbitrary length string into a float field of a table
 
wow, that Levi Morrison guy
 
@DeadMG See what I mean? :(
 
11:23 PM
what the fuck?
 
@refp You can take the address of std::get<0> and std::get<1>, you know.
 
user1174868
is there no way to send PMs on this website?
 
opsie, brainfart when writing that snippet though.. Pair::first_type, should be an assert with is_same (Pair::first_type, Pair::second_type)::value
 
Every discussion is automatically a train wreck.
 
@CatPlusPlus Okay, I'll just go from top to bottom
 
11:24 PM
Oooh, war.
 
"the evolution is lead by people who have no bloody idea what they’re doing" reference required
 
but
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Actually, Metro smells like it could be an exception to the rule. All this shit with Vista's AUC and application isolation/virtualization was still trying to hold everything together and 'fake' compatibility with Win95, essentially. It looks like they shed that pipe dream with Metro
 
nobody can out argue The Puppy™.
 
"The biggest problem of PHP white knights is that they have no idea what happens outside of PHP" reference required
 
11:25 PM
and I'll be damned if I let some PHP goon defeat my track record
 
@NikiC Inferred from the post.
 
I've got a reputation to uphold as being invincible
 
@CatPlusPlus I actually gave the disclaimer before you went all 'ye gods' on me.
 
"Oh, right, but you finally got development server. In PHP 5.4. About 20 years after the rest of the world." What other languages have a built-in development server?
 
@Jordan Unlikely. It's usually pretty happy in there :)
 
11:25 PM
@NikiC Languages don't have built-in development servers.
Languages don't have any servers.
 
@CatPlusPlus What do you mean by "About 20 years after the rest of the world." then?
 
@NikiC No reference required -- it's a definition: a PHP white knight is one who has no clue about what else happens.
 
Comedic exaggeration.
 
user1174868
pascals triangle is a bad recursion example too
 
I've yet to see a web development stack that wouldn't have a dev server.
Python, Ruby, Java, Haskell, Factor, whatever.
Pick anything web-related in those, dev server.
 
11:27 PM
@CatPlusPlus The point here is that the web server is part of the language runtime, not an external component ;)
 
Hell, Zope had one, in 1998 or so. I don't remember dates.
@NikiC I haven't seen dev servers in PHP ecosystem before that.
 
I mean, sure you can use pretty all langauges with Apache/nginx/lighty ^^
 
user1174868
ah fuck, scheme starts counting at zero?
 
@CatPlusPlus Huh? PHP nearly always runs behind a server. Or do I misunderstand you?
 
@Jordan FWIW I missed your first post and I thought the second message was a really awkward report to enter a room with. (Which is what prompted my own awkward nasal irritation report)
 
11:28 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes it's "slightly" more tedious to write though..
 
@NikiC I'm not talking about setting up Apache to develop.
 
@refp How so?
 
@CatPlusPlus What are you talking about then?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes try it.
 
Gimme a moment, and I'll do it.
 
user1174868
11:28 PM
@Sehe oh sorry, I never leave here I thought you were trying to talk shit to me
 
damn
 
user1174868
I always assume everyone here is trying to talk shit to me because I am so bad at programming
 
Development servers. With debuggers, automatic reloading and all that other development goodies that you don't want on production.
But see what I mean about being holed up in PHP world?
 
@Jordan Never assume. I know you're here a lot. I don't dislike your presence.
 
Ahh, I think now I get what you're talking about ^^
 
11:29 PM
I had to retreat from my PHP argument after the opponent stopped participating (due to his crushing defeat) and a traitorous impalement by the sword of my ally, the robot.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Hmm, how so?
 
4
Q: When to use "::" and when to use "."

JordanApologies for a question that I assume is extremely basic. I am having trouble finding out online the difference between the operator :: and . in C++ I have a few years experience with C# and Java, and am familiar with the concept of using . operator for member access. Could anyone explain whe...

^ found duplicate, voted to close
 
@Jordan On that note, did you ever look at my scriblings in scheme/racket I made especially for you the other day? You were gone without a trace, as far as I could tell
 
As for that jab at people not knowing what they're doing, it's slightly exaggerated and mostly based on PHP history.
 
user1174868
@sehe Was it the solution to the problem?
 
11:30 PM
@CatPlusPlus In that case, PHP has had a decent debugger (xdebug) for a very long time. There is also the zend debugger which is tighly integrated with the zend server stack ;)
 
Like that overflow bug. Or \ as namespace separator after IMPORTANT IRC MEETING.
 
user1174868
@sehe I had about 30 tabs open and my computer crashed and I lost them
 
Or register_globals.
 
@Xeo As with any other function.
But :S it's overloaded.
Fuckles.
 
Xeo
@RMartinhoFernandes Yeah nevermind, needs casting
 
11:30 PM
Or lack of bytecode cache in reference implementation.
Or php.ini.
 
Xeo
Now only complaining about ranged-for
@refp ^
 
These are all just terrible decisions, design or otherwise.
 
@Jordan Yeah, on second instance. Why? I address my responses to you. I explained the purpose too. Did you not notice?
 
@NikiC Yeah, xdebug. I remember always having problems with xdebug. :.
But for an example of really good dev server see Werkzeug.
 
@CatPlusPlus Okay, now that the development server part is clarified, let's move on to the next point. "And, coincidentally, three products with an amazing security track record." => This is kindof ironic coming from a C++ dev ^^
 
11:32 PM
@Jordan Perhaps stop hammering to many nails into reproductive organs :)
 
@NikiC That sounds ad hominem-ish.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes It's not meant like that
 
@NikiC Again, it's just making fun of products picked as an example of GREAT PHP ACHIEVEMENTS.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes No "ish" about it.
@NikiC In fact, Science™ determined that C++ is the most secure language.
 
@Jordan Hint, you can find your replies here
 
11:33 PM
@DeadMG Oh, they did?
 
C++ is not involved in the argument, because the post is not related in any way to c++.
 
yep
 
@Xeo write a version that doesn't require the author to specify exactly what tuple we are working with (in std::get as well as your function pointer), I didn't say it was impossible.. just that it requires more thinking when working with tuples than with std::pairs
 
user1174868
@sehe I found it, I am going to wait before I look at it actually, I have one last idea that i want to see if it will work
 
@refp All member pointers suck anyway.
 
11:33 PM
@NikiC But really, look at Werkzeug. It's awesome.
 
Xeo
@refp Blame overloading.
 
Well, Werkzeug's debugger.
 
@DeadMG Would be even more secure if only no-one used it
 
@CatPlusPlus My point was just that there is lots of software in different languages that had lots of security issues. That's not an argument against the language, but again the software
 
lol
 
11:34 PM
Also, PHP error model is another terrible design decision.
@NikiC Yes. I already said that.
 
@NikiC That's not true at all. Language and library design decisions encourage errors.
 
I never said I'm making fun of just the language.
 
@CatPlusPlus I must have missed it
@DeadMG In that case though C++ encourages a lot more errors than PHP does ;)
 
@CatPlusPlus Absolutely.
 
I'm making fun of language, reference implementation and that blog post in general.
 
11:34 PM
for example, C's, ahem, "resource handling and error handling model"
@NikiC WTF are you smoking? C++ code is more secure than PHP code.
 
@NikiC C++ has a lot of terrible design mistakes, too. Like inheriting after C.
@DeadMG Depends on a developer. Don't derail.
 
@DeadMG That's arguable
 
Or I'll be mad. :<
 
@CatPlusPlus Ok. Let's call it officially two conversations: security of C++, and security of PHP.
@NikiC Science said it, bitch. :P
 
@Jordan Ok, just know you can replace my pow with the builtin expt as the robot pointed out:
23 hours ago, by R. Martinho Fernandes
@sehe Erm there's expt.
 
11:36 PM
Fine. hmpf
 
Did I mention I didn't ever really use scheme/lisp before?
 
Security of PHP is laughable at best
 
@DeadMG Link?
 
@refp Meh, that's a contrived case anyway.
 
if you want to see how NOT to do it, just sniff out PHP sources
 
11:36 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes it's a case.
 
Tuples are better. Shut up.
 
I want to see that pink fluffy unicorn that tag line makes reference to!
 
Cicada, Rennes, France
12.7k 1 18 42
 
@RMartinhoFernandes apparently "not" in this case..
 
What part of "Shut up." didn't you understand?
 
11:38 PM
Lol.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Larger is better. I already grew a pair, so tuples are better
 
@NikiC Actually kinda difficult. Most of the time you just get back garbage
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I think the "up" part :P
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I dun get it.
 
@refp Basically, it means "I have no counter-arguments and I don't want to vocally admit you're right even though I already admitted it in my head, so I'm going to act like a child."
 
11:40 PM
nigh all
 
user1174868
@sehe thanks I got it now, I just looked at your solution. That was really simple actually
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I know, and since I'm a troll I'll make you suffer
 
in PHP, 8 mins ago, by rlemon
why not just combine the two languages into PHP++ then we can all agree on something.
 
Ell
lol
 
That thought gives me shudders
 
11:42 PM
@Jordan yeah, after you (try to) understand it, try to rewrite it with different names and without looking at the solution. Actually, writing the pow function as well is helpful, since it exercises the same recursion trick.
 
> The most disastrous thing about programming — to pick one of the 10 most disastrous things about programming — there's a very popular movement based on pattern languages. When Christopher Alexander first did that in architecture, he was looking at 2,000 years of ways that humans have made themselves comfortable. So there was actually something to it, because he was dealing with a genome that hasn't changed that much. I think he got a few hundred valuable patterns out of it.
> But the bug in trying to do that in computing is the assumption that we know anything at all about programming. So extracting patterns from today's programming practices ennobles them in a way they don't deserve. It actually gives them more cachet.
 
Also, I forgot what was causing that bug I left in the code when I went to sleep last night. I remember it took me an hour to debug. WHYYYYY
 
@Jordan now if that worked, (or if it turned out difficult the first time), try again the next day, but this time, without looking at the solution in the mean time. You'll learn how to make all the mental clicks necessary to put the puzzle back together for yourself
 
user1174868
@sehe thanks, that is probably what I will be doing for the rest of the night
 
11:43 PM
Cheers
 
user1174868
compiler errors are like getting told you don't get to have christmas this year
 
But now it's no longer less than three.
Previously, it was only two.
 
Yay, my first ever tweet:
@LukeMaciak Time you waste wasted is not really enjoyed
ah man. Pro tip: when sleepy, see your bedlinnen. (Explanation: that was a lame joke...?)
Speaking of which
 
Ell
11:52 PM
goodnight
 
user1174868
I really do not understand this code actually, how can you print an n value if it hasn't been assigned a value yet?
 
@Jordan It's called a formal parameter. It is a placeholder for an 'unknown' value that will be 'passed' when the function gets applied
 
user1174868
so how can a conditional be ran with a formal parameter?
 
(define (fun1 a) a) ; formal parameter
(fun1 3) ; pass 3 for the formal parameter a
@Jordan It isn't. It is in the function body, and it refers to formal parameter a (which by then is a normal variable)
 
D has a feature in which you can return a type you only define inside the function itself. I want that.
 
user1174868
11:56 PM
(define (do-find a b n)
(if (> (expt b n) a) n
(do-find a b (+ 1 n))))
(do-find a b 0))
 
user1174868
So that conditional can never be true on the first run through? I dont get it
 
(define (fun a b c) BODY) -- the body part can use a b c as-if they are 'actual values' (they'll be substituted when the function is applied)
Really going to bed now,
Bye
 
user1174868
oh
 
user1174868
good night
 
:)
 
11:58 PM
@sehe Have fun.
 

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