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7:00 PM
@JerryCoffin Oh well, we know what part we disagree on. :)
@rubenvb Why naïve? Isn't that what patent trolling is all about: patenting things you shouldn't, because you won't be making it? Or did I misunderstand that?
 
@Drise It's seemed to me that (at least since Woz departed) Apple's mode of operation has been: "That's ours -- we stole it first!"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes With that definition, Apple is not a patent troll.
 
Oh, I don't know about that.
 
"I will spend my last dying breath if I need to, and I will spend every penny of Apple's $40 billion in the bank, to right this wrong," Jobs told his biographer. "I'm going to destroy Android, because it's a stolen product. I'm willing to go thermonuclear war on this."
 
And frankly, when applying for a patent you often don't know if it's going to be worth making. It is often a just-in-case kind of thing.
And nothing's wrong with that kind of patent.
 
7:03 PM
And yes, we all know Apple is evil and shit. No need to reiterate that.
 
@Drise Fortunately Jobs died before he launched the missiles.
 
An scientist inventor needs to be able to patent his invention before he publishes it in a scientific journal, where every company can learn his idea and "steal" it.
Not that multimedia multinationals are scientist inventors.
 
@Drise Some poeple have so much nerdraeg it's not even funny.
 
@SamDeHaan Apparently, Jobs had a lot of it. 40$ billion to be exact.
“Our lawsuit is saying, ‘Google, you f___ing ripped off the iPhone, wholesale ripped us off.’ Grand theft,” Jobs told Isaacson in the book. “Make no mistake. They want to kill the iPhone. We won’t let them.”

He would not be swayed, not even by settlements. “It wasn’t a matter of money,” Isaacson explained. “He said: ‘You can’t pay me off, I’m here to destroy you.’”
 
@rubenvb Not in the US they don't -- you can apply for a patent up to a year after you invent (and you can publish in the meantime without losing any rights).
 
7:08 PM
@JerryCoffin huh. That sounds dangerous.
 
@Drise It wasn't nerdrage. It was that Jobs was an arrogant ass -- which is exactly the reason he's dead to day (the cancer he has was entirely treatable when discovered -- but being an arrogant ass, he decided he'd be able to win against it without treatment, at least until it was way too late).
 
@JerryCoffin Wait, really? Dumbass.
 
Say the patent application is rejected for some crappy reason. You'd have to reapply and lose the advantage.
@JerryCoffin Source?
 
@rubenvb Lots of them, but here's one:
 
7:12 PM
Steven Paul "Steve" Jobs (; February 24, 1955 – October 5, 2011) was an American businessman, designer and inventor. He is best known as the co-founder, chairman, and chief executive officer of Apple Inc. Through Apple, he was widely recognized as a charismatic pioneer of the personal computer revolution and for his influential career in the computer and consumer electronics fields. Jobs also co-founded and served as chief executive of Pixar Animation Studios; he became a member of the board of directors of The Walt Disney Company in 2006, when Disney acquired Pixar. In the late ...
I wish that oneboxing would jump to the section...
 
OK, official biography book thing accepted. I first saw "theblaze.com" and wikipedia and I thought: not accepted.
 
@rubenvb It's pretty typical that a patent application will be rejected on the first try. You don't lose anything from it. In fact, the normal cycle is that the first two rejections aren't considered final. Even the third isn't necessarily final, but before that it almost certainly isn't.
 
@JerryCoffin but how the hell can the powers that be know the initial patent application has anything to do with whatever it is you published? Seems like a patent could be changed a lot between first submission and acceptance.
 
@DeadMG Do you have a SO Careers account?
 
Ell
hi guys
3d modeling is impossible!
 
7:20 PM
@Ell The dozens of artists who work in the same building as me disagree.
 
Ell
@EtiennedeMartel well they would, wouldn't they :L
 
@rubenvb They do a search for "related art" when you submit a patent application. You're also required to tell the patent office of any related art of which you're aware. Even of the patent office doesn't find it, when you take somebody to court, they might -- and if they show you intentionally withheld it from the patent office, that can render the patent unenforceable.
 
Writing PHP is impossible, too, and yet.
 
And yet it allows creating pretty solid websites like Facebook.
 
@CatPlusPlus Writing PHP is easy. Writing decent PHP is a whole different story. On the other hand, parsing PERL is undecidable..
@StackedCrooked One solid pile of, well, you know..
 
7:23 PM
And LISP is unreadable. Those ALL CAPS languages.
 
@JerryCoffin hmmm. Sounds expensive for no reason. But who am I to judge. Thanks for the intel ;-)
 
@JerryCoffin I don't like Facebook either. But from a technical point of view, the web frontend does work well.
 
@StackedCrooked I'll take your word for that.
 
@StackedCrooked The web front end maybe, but have you seen the mobile app front end?
It's slower than the slowest fucking snail in sirup, and never clears its cache even when you hit reload.
 
@StackedCrooked the webfrontend works well? the backend definitely, but the frontend is bugged as hell
 
7:24 PM
@RadekSlupik No. But, is it bad due to PHP?
 
@StackedCrooked No, due to the morons who wrote it.
 
@bamboon I guess we have different experiences then.
 
"C++98, C++03 or C++11"? I always thought there was only C++ and C++11 only lol — Futago-za Ryuu 30 mins ago
"lol"
 
@bamboon I guess we have different experiences then.
@StackedCrooked I guess we have the same experiences then.
 
PHP can be reasonably fast if the correct modules are loaded into the web server...
 
7:26 PM
@StackedCrooked probably, I actually only use the mail system and chat
 
@RadekSlupik Indeed, since I have not experienced mobile Facebook.
 
Does PHP still require recompilation if you want to add an extension?
 
Ell
I think I'm going to attempt to write a game for ouyu now it has £3 mil pledged
 
@RadekSlupik No, you can write it as a shared library.
I actually once wrote an PHP extension. Shame on me :p
 
I actually once wrote PHP code. Shame on me :p
 
Ell
7:27 PM
I can't do php :L
 
.* > PHP
@Ell Keep it that way.
 
You people are just snobs. PHP isn't that bad. :-)
 
@JimNorton flagged
 
@RadekSlupik For what? Telling the truth?
 
@JimNorton for saying that PHP isn't that bad, whether that's the truth or not. :P
 
7:29 PM
It is that bad.
For all values of bad.
 
xD
PHP is badder than Python.
 
Steve jobs day? Are you serious?
 
lolwut
 
I could live with jobs day. But Steve Jobs day?
 
For what PHP was created for, it does a good job.
 
7:30 PM
It's either a normal day, or Radek Slupik day.
Nothing else.
 
It's a shit language written and maintained by a bunch of idiots, who know nothing about language design, language implementation or C in general.
 
@JimNorton No, it sucks in doing its job.
 
<? echo ":("; ?>
 
PHP sucks in what it was made for.
 
guys
 
7:31 PM
php.ini? seriously? I cannot even develop on multiple web apps at the same time?
 
PHP is a claw hammer with two claws apparently.
 
PHP Has no Purpose.
 
@Cicada Aye!
 
> lol
 
@RadekSlupik What.
 
7:31 PM
@CatPlusPlus Well, maybe for one app I want a different configuration than for another one.
 
@RadekSlupik Link?
 
You can.
 
You don't write separate php.ini for different apps.
 
That's the problem.
 
@RadekSlupik That can be done.
 
7:32 PM
If you don't even know PHP, shut up, you're not allowed to participate in bashing it.
2
 
It's not a problem - you can reconfigure every PHP.ini variable anywhere.
 
I only wrote a PHP extension for memcached (in C++) and some unit tests in PHP.
 
In fact, if you don't, your app is broken.
 
@Cicada That's correct.
 
You have to normalise settings all the time, that's how retarded php.ini is.
 
7:33 PM
PHP: Putrid Hellish Pain
 
PHP has poop?
 
And of course, dl() is deprecated, and entire compiled module system is idiotic.
 
I know PHP. I've seen the funny bug reports. That's more than enough experience.
 
PHP: Pure Hatred Magnet.
 
It's like they're morons who know nothing about what they're doing.
 
7:34 PM
@StackedCrooked Clever.
 
Oh wait, they are.
 
PHP: A Language That Sucks
 
@CatPlusPlus Well of course, because only people in this room should be allowed to create stuff because you guys are the best...
 
PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor
The name says it all!
 
@JimNorton What?
 
7:35 PM
@RadekSlupik No it actually started out meaning "Phil's Home Page"
 
We guys are pretty osom indeed
 
I didn't say "PHP team is stupid, because they don't hang around in this chat room".
Stop inferring things I never said, because that's stupid.
 
That would be valid though.
 
@CatPlusPlus No but, I've been here long enough to hear you people call everything and everybody stupid...
 
I'm stupid.
 
7:36 PM
@JimNorton And how is that not correct?
 
Just admit it... you all are snobs... in the kindest sense of the word, of course.
 
Jim, we call each other stupid on occasion, so what's your point?
 
"What's your point, stupid?"
 
No, you're again inferring weird things that has never been said or implied.
 
@CatPlusPlus Stop inferring things I never said, because that's PHP. <- FTFY
 
7:37 PM
> implying
 
@JimNorton It comes with the package you know.
 
Ok, so don't admit it then. :-)
Be proud of your snobishness ..
 
If you want to white knight PHP, give some counterarguments based on facts.
 
> implying they exist
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't particularly want to white knight PHP, but it isn't as bad as you think.
 
7:39 PM
I know PHP for about 7 years.
I've written thousands of SLOC.
 
> Left margins are cool
 
> implying you can do them
 
I deployed and ran semi-large apps.
Yes, it's as bad as I think.
 
Instead of asking me to prove it's decent, how about you prove to me with facts that it does its job terribly..
 
7:40 PM
rofl
omg rofl
 
> implying roflomg
 
[10] guy you fool
 
Gaaah.
Fine, I'll play.
 
@JimNorton What is its job?
 
php.ini
 
7:41 PM
to suck
 
@publ1c_stat1c Who the fuck are you?
@TonyTheLion Ah, then it does it very well.
 
Fixing overflow bugs with if (expr > INT_MAX) do something.
 
indeed :)
 
> implying indeed
 
@cat give him that link that was given to me a few days ago.
 
7:41 PM
@EtiennedeMartel It's primary job is to be a server side language for writing web apps etc..
 
And it sucks terribly at it.
 
> implying it's a language
 
at this is does well enough
 
> implying lol
 
it has quite a few security holes, PHP does
 
7:42 PM
@EtiennedeMartel publ1c_stat1c
 
Did you ever deployed a PHP application that was used by more than one user?
 
> implying PHP is not a security hole on its own
 
@JimNorton As I've said before, Java completely crushes PHP when it comes to building Web apps.
 
and the one's whom are supposed to fix those holes, have done a terrible job, not only once
 
@Cicada Would you please stop that fucking 4chan quoting thing.
Thanks.
 
7:42 PM
> implying this is 4chan quoting
 
oh god why?
 
> implying god exists
 
lol
 
NO. SHUT THE FUCK UP!
 
@EtiennedeMartel I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together.
 
7:43 PM
dafuq?
that's not even an English sentence
 
Prove god doesn't or does exist? Is it possible?
 
1 min ago, by Cat Plus Plus
Did you ever deployed a PHP application that was used by more than one user?
 
> implying the proof is interesting
 
Have you ever....
 
Deploy, there should be.
Oh shut up.
 
7:44 PM
lol
 
@JimNorton I don't care. I don't need to prove it doesn't exist.
Why would I care proving that 1 != 2
 
@JimNorton I'd say the claim is that god exists, so that's who the burden is on
 
hate php. annoying to work with
 
> work
> php
pick one
 
People Hate PHP
 
7:44 PM
I ran semi-large vBulletin installation for about 2 or 3 years. PHP implementation is absolute fucking shit.
 
@Cicada I pick neither.
 
And the language is not any better, either.
The mess in stdlib screams "we're incompetent".
 
Dude. Where's the epic PHP rant of the other day? It's very accurate
 
My rant or fractal one?
 
Fractal
 
7:45 PM
Ok my job here is done. I knew saying anything good about PHP would rile up the room.m.
 
@publ1c_stat1c Keep doing that and I'll counter troll you to death.
 
Ah there
 
scala anyone?
 
Fuck you Cat.
 
7:46 PM
Please do.
 
salad anyone?
 
Wanted to mess with it just didn't have time
 
scala looks OK
 
@JimNorton Right, run away, because there's no way to defend PHP.
 
7:46 PM
@Cicada there there. I see you have fucks to give. No use just giving them away, or you'll be back to "see this? that's how many fucks I have to give!" in no time.
 
@CatPlusPlus I'm not running away pussy.
 
What.
 
@JimNorton so you trolled us?
 
I'm still waiting on a counterargument.
 
> implying
 
7:47 PM
@TonyTheLion Some what..
 
@TonyTheLion The room trolled him IMO.
 
If not, I'm putting you on plonkfile.
 
What?
 
Or I might just anyway.
 
It's been a while since I've seen Cat actually being pissed.
 
7:48 PM
lolz
 
PHP is a codeword to make him pissed.
 
I don't give a shit what you do Cat... you aren't that fucking special that I'm worried about what you think.
 
White knighting PHP like a moron.
 
PHP is pissed on.
 
lol
@EtiennedeMartel pretty easy to piss off the Cat: just start with premature optimization.
 
7:49 PM
The "it's good enough for its job" argument is so stupid, I don't even.
 
php was cool at web dev initial boom, but now it just sucks
 
someone actually managed to piss of the Cat, jeez.
 
Your sysop hates you for writing PHP.
 
@CatPlusPlus At some point, "good enough" is actually "good enough". Not saying or implying it can't or shouldn't be improved.
 
Because this shit is not worth the effort it requires to actually run it.
 
7:50 PM
@CatPlusPlus Hey man, i could totally hammer in nails with this double claw hammer, bro.
 
It's not even about the language.
 
@JimNorton At some point, "good enough" is actually "more work than its worth" (we can use quotes too!)
 
It's about implementation written by complete idiots.
 
The inventor of PHP is a self-confessed dillitante in language design
 
And how fucking dare anybody say, "It seems to work well enough". Nothing is perfect... get over it.
 
7:51 PM
You know how FastCGI implementation in PHP works?
 
Problem with thinking that PHP is "good enough" is that it makes you settle for crap.
 
It spawns several processes which then in turn do the whole "start app from scratch on every request" thing.
 
You can get better languages or frameworks.
 
PHP was cool for flashing web counters and stuff, but just got out of hand. Now we've got this quasi-object oriented thing nobody really knows how to use with literally crap-tons of baggage from previous versions, all of which makes the language error-prone and damn near unusable
 
This is so laughable.
 
7:51 PM
@EtiennedeMartel No, sometimes you don't have a choice...
 
You can use better tools.
 
@JimNorton Read: me.veekun.com/blog/2012/04/09/php-a-fractal-of-bad-design : The Fucking Manual
 
@JimNorton Rarely. And if you don't, it's probably your fault anyway for painting yourself in a corner (or being hired by someone who did).
 
@RadekSlupik The implementation isn't the problem, the spec is the problem.
 
7:52 PM
JK, but seriously.
 
Guys, you are trying to make him back off instead of providing solid argumentation. This does not lead to new insights for both parties.
 
I like any language that's consistent, has a readable syntax and doesn't enforce me anything.
 
@RadekSlupik haha. Good joke.
 
You can't discuss anything with PHP users, because they take it personal when you insult their BELOVED LANGUAGE FOR LIFE.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I've never written any PHP code for a job... My point is that PHP serves a purpose, and it doesn't have to be perfect to be useful.
 
7:53 PM
Goddammit, I'm turning into @thecoshman.
 
Same as with you and Haskell. :P
 
@CatPlusPlus I know a guy who acts like that... with C++.
@JimNorton Nothing is perfect. But PHP is subpar.
 
@RadekSlupik Prove it.
@EtiennedeMartel Who? Me? You've got to be kidding.
 
It's crappier at its job than, say, Ruby or Python.
 
So Cat, for the hell of it, how does your php framework stack look like?
 
7:54 PM
@CatPlusPlus No, not you.
He sometimes come on here. Goes by the name @Drahakar.
 
or whoever that was
 
I've recently come to know that I'm the only one here that loves C++.
 
I just sick and fucking tired of coming into this room and hearing you snobs complain about EVERYTHING.. this sucks, that sucks.....
 
Or even likes it.
 
@StackedCrooked I guess we've never gone on a date or anything, but C++ is pretty nice I guess
 
7:55 PM
PHP frameworks were always so hilarious.
 
@StackedCrooked I like it too. Not particularly love it, but it gives me freedom. I like that.
 
@JimNorton On MY Internet? Never.
 
They didn't actually improve anything, and only added more overhead per request.
 
true.. its all workarounds instead of actual implementations
 
7:56 PM
@JimNorton Also, why do you keep coming in here to read what us snobs have to say?
 
@JimNorton Jesus, Jim, then go...?
 
Haha, he still goes with that "you're all snobs" argument?
 
Honestly, though, there is a sizeable margin between "complaining" and "criticizing".
 
Because I enjoy the people in this room... but the snobbyness is getting old now..
 
@Collin He's forced to, just like he's forced to use PHP.
 
7:57 PM
@StackedCrooked I like it. It's not horrible to code with. It's mostly reliable too.
 
C++ is okay, but tools are terrible.
Well, it's mostly okay.
 
@JimNorton we're C++ programmers, what else do you expect? :P
 
@CatPlusPlus C++ makes it hard to have good tools.
 
@CatPlusPlus I need to beat make with a stick
 
Yeah.
 
7:58 PM
@JimNorton Look, we're the kind of people who will bash stuff we like, because we know it's not perfect, but we wish it was.
 
> we wish it was
srsly?
 
The horribleness of making project work is what turns me away from C++ mostly.
 
You wish PHP was perfect?
 
> bash stuff we like
 
7:58 PM
Oh right.
 
C++ is too powerful for you
 
I don't recall saying that I like PHP.
PHP might be the exception.
 
@EtiennedeMartel Say it. SAY IT
 
You know what, it's not even about PHP.
 
I used to like PHP... back when it was the only thing I knew.
 
7:59 PM
It's about PHP users.
 
@EtiennedeMartel I understand that... But I really don't often hear of the good things about anything here.
 
@JimNorton What? Have you heard me talking about C#? Or Cat talking about Haskell?
 
To paraphrase Yahtzee: good things don't have as much comedy value as bad things.
 
I said "often".
 

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