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7:00 PM
I'd call it "three arrows about to smash into you".
 
@sehe hai
 
@Hoxieboy ahoy
 
@Luc thinking about it, I think it's a good idea to not derive the common return automatically.
 
What's your take on member vs non-member? apply(f, variant) vs variant.apply(f);.
 
7:02 PM
variant<A, A> has more information than A.
@LucDanton I prefer non-member.
 
How does variant<A, A> work?
It's either A or... A?
 
@CatPlusPlus Yes! :-)
 
variant<A, A> is akin to tuple<bool, A> (A + A = 2 * A).
 
Right now mine can't as I don't have a constructor that specifies which member to activate. That's easy to implement though.
 
7:03 PM
That's funny, I started mimicking Boost.Variant but I'm getting further away from it.
 
@sehe its kinda weird not being able to talk and yet "talk"
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How so?
 
@KerrekSB They're isomorphic. There's a 1-to-1 mapping between variant<A, A> and tuple<bool, A> (just make the bool be the answer to "is this the first slot?").
 
@Hoxieboy huh? I'm able to talk. Still with that swollen vulva?
 
What.
 
7:04 PM
@MooingDuck I knew there was some correlation between google chrome and annoying things :)
 
@Hoxieboy the "pester ball"?
 
@sehe yes, it disabled my vocal cords :(
@MooingDuck yup lol
 
@Hoxieboy aw, that's pretty bad
 
Swollen what?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes uvula
 
7:05 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes in-joke
lol
 
@RMartinhoFernandes How can you tell which slot is occupied?
 
@LucDanton wtf? lol
 
because smileys are just...
too damn small
 
7:06 PM
@KerrekSB My interface has variant.which() already.
 
@KerrekSB There's a which() member function. I'm not sure if boost has a way to create one with the value on the second slot, but it has a way to tell them apart :).
 
@LucDanton I never noticed... are those giraffes in the background? (someday I will learn to spell giraffe without google)
 
@MooingDuck Of course. What else
 
The only thing allowing variant<T, T> that could be problematic is that get<T>(v) would of course be ambiguous. I do have get<N>(v) in the interface, and apply would still work.
 
@MooingDuck Try remembering uvula
 
7:07 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes So it's more like a tuple<A, bool>(A(), false)?
 
@KerrekSB Yes!
 
@sehe
(O) (O)
  ()
-------
 \   /
  ---
big enough?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Isomorphic to a bool with value false. That's also a useful thing.
I'm sure someone finds a TMP use for that.
 
@MooingDuck It certainly appears so!
 
:( another SSD failure :(
 
7:08 PM
@sehe that reminds me, I had a debate a few years ago with a Christian biology professor. Her stance was "if evolution is real, why is there no fossil evidence of short necked giraffes? Obviously, God created them!"
 
@Hoxieboy I fear you can do better. But I'm confident the bin is bigger
@MooingDuck makes sense
 
listens to "I'm sexy and I know it" in the background
 
@KerrekSB Variants are sums, and tuples are products. variant<A,A> is A+A, and tuple<bool, A> is 2*A (bool is type 2 because it has two values). A+A = 2*A, so variant<A,A> is isomorphic with tuple<bool,A>. I had one semester with a class full of this shit. Since you're math inclined, you'll probably appreciate the beauty in this.
 
The okapi (), Okapia johnstoni, is a giraffid artiodactyl mammal native to the Ituri Rainforest, located in the northeast of the Democratic Republic of the Congo, in Central Africa. Although the okapi bears striped markings reminiscent of zebras, it is most closely related to the giraffe. The animal was brought to prominent European attention by speculation on its existence found in popular press reports covering Henry Morton Stanley's journeys in 1887. Remains of a carcass were later sent to London by the English adventurer and colonial administrator Harry Johnston and became a media e...
 
@BenVoigt Ooh I have good luck with those
 
7:09 PM
Look! Short necked giraffes! (Stupid Christians....)
 
@MooingDuck Oh I love Okapi's
@MooingDuck Yeah, but how do you explain the absense of fossils, huh?! Those cute animals aren't stoney enough for evolutionists
 
@sehe The point is there are fossils.
 
@MooingDuck damn
 
Someone reverse fossilised them into giraffes.
 
@sehe Well on this one desktop I've had a Vertex LE go south (recognized for about 5 minutes after powerup, then freezes) and today a C300 decided it wasn't going to be recognized by the BIOS.
 
7:11 PM
@Hoxieboy affirmation really helps self esteem. keep up the good work
 
While the OCZ seems to be freezing because of its self-check, Crucial thinks leaving their drive plugged into power (not data) will help it fix itself. Seems worth a try.
 
fossils are like a lego-set without instructions "oh yeah sure, here are the pieces, now we just need to fit them together and make people think that's how things are supposed to go."
 
@MooingDuck Huh, I am not too sure I understand the evolutionary relevance of stupid christians in relation to shortneckedness
 
Short necks make you more resilient to beheadings, right?
2
 
@BenVoigt strange solution. Can you get hdparm to sata-secure erase it?
 
7:12 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes XD
 
@RMartinhoFernandes On the contrary, long necks facilitate more beheadings per specimen
 
@sehe: Perhaps that stupid people calling themselves Christians used to lengthen the necks of scientists who discoved things they found "inconvenient"?
 
@sehe A lot of zealots (Christians in my case) constantly use arguments they heard that validates their beliefs, even when they are nonsensical and wrong, without doing even a basic google search to validate
 
@MooingDuck: There's a lot of uninformed zealotry on both sides.
 
@sehe For multiple beheadings you need multiple heads. Cutting the same neck twice doesn't count as two beheadings. One head separate from its body = one beheading.
 
7:14 PM
@sehe I think it depends on how big the teeth or claws are on the predators :3
 
@BenVoigt I don't disagree. It's just Christians in my case. There's a lot of stupid atheists too
Christians tend to just be louder in their stupidity, due to attempting to bring others into the fold, where athiests tend to simply defend.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I think its possible to behead multiple times, so long as you make the incisions at the same time
 
@MooingDuck Oh a basic google search can prove any point.
2
 
user406009
I have a really random question. Say I manually load a function that returns an object from a shared library. Are the methods of that object automatically loaded too, or do I have to load them manually?
 
@sehe I'd rather not lose the data. And hdparm can't erase a drive it can't enumerate. I think that may be the final option for the OCZ drive though, in order to erase whatever corrupted metadata (if secure erase does in fact reset metadata).
 
7:15 PM
I knew somemone was going to make that point. To bad giraffe evolved into singleton-heads.
As if we needed more proof that singletons are useless
 
@BenVoigt usb to IDE cable?
and then chkdsk (on windows)?
 
@Hoxieboy Tried that, the C300 doesn't enumerate through a USB-SATA bridge either. And tried both SATA controllers on my motherboard as well.
 
@EthanSteinberg You load a library, not functions
 
:(
 
@EthanSteinberg and yes, you can normally (under ABI) rely on the vtable to work for that object
@BenVoigt I'd seriiously consider placing it in another machine to rule out controller/mobo issues
 
7:17 PM
@sehe: The USB-SATA bridge was attempted on my laptop.
 
@BenVoigt does it make any noises at all that sound wrong?
 
@BenVoigt ok, fair enough I guess.
 
And the motherboard SATA controller is happily recognizing two rotating disks and two optical disks
 
@Hoxieboy All noise from an SSD is wrong.
 
^^
 
7:18 PM
@Hoxieboy google SSD?
 
@sehe my computers SSD makes noises all the time :) I think it depends on the manufacturer
 
@Hoxieboy You mean, how much hot air they sell you?
 
@Hoxieboy Unless you mean that your SSD feeds audio data to your sound card, something's fishy
 
@sehe, acer aspire 3000 hot air? maybe
 
SSDs don't make noises. Period. Power supplies, mobo sysfans, they might increase noise, but not the actuall SSD
 
7:20 PM
@sehe it makes 5 clicking noises at start up (and yes, they are not from my disk drive) and then runs quiet
 
@sehe: I've heard solid state electronics make noise before.... but not an SSD.
 
@Hoxieboy Oh those fans, indeed blow a lot of hot air. Seriously, without the fans, all will be silent and the SSDs don't dissipate enough energy to generate a lot of heat
@Hoxieboy I'm gonna believe you. Because it is simpler
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes yes, I know, but is this how Boost::variant actually behaves?
 
@BenVoigt That's a thought.
 
@sehe :P maybe the thing is messed up beyond all belief and still works, but I've defragged multiple times before and it ran fine?
 
7:21 PM
Speaking of "without the fans" -- this cooler is great: thermalright.com/products/index.php?act=data&id=95
 
@KerrekSB Well, I don't think it allows construction in the second slot.
 
@Hoxieboy Defrag on an SSD is useless too :)
 
^^
 
@sehe wait what? I Need to learn more about SSD
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Right
 
7:21 PM
@KerrekSB But Luc's should. :P
 
worse than useless actually. Just wears out the flash with extra write cycles, and probably reduces the number of spare sectors, causing slowdown (mass write does that to an SSD)
 
@sehe I'm talking about a sata hard drive?
 
@BenVoigt I think I have one of those.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes What about <A, B, A>?
 
@MooingDuck You need to buy one. Then enjoy the silence + speed
@Hoxieboy Great. Makes for a good conversation. I was talking about bunnies with hard hats
 
7:22 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes It's time that C++15 get a new header <danton>. Everything in it would require at least five levels of template instantiation.
 
@sehe I'm cheap, I'll stick with theory
 
@MooingDuck No you won't :)
 
@sehe I'm not computer slang savy, SSD = ?
 
A solid-state drive (SSD), sometimes called a solid-state disk or electronic disk, is a data storage device that uses solid-state memory to store persistent data with the intention of providing access in the same manner of a traditional block I/O hard disk drive. SSDs are distinguished from traditional magnetic disks such as hard disk drives (HDDs) or floppy disk, which are electromechanical devices containing spinning disks and movable read/write heads. In contrast, SSDs use microchips that retain data in non-volatile memory chips and contain no moving parts. , most SSDs use NAND-ba...
 
5 mins ago, by sehe
@Hoxieboy google SSD?
 
7:24 PM
From the talk here, it means Super Silent Drive.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Not working on it right now but there needs to be a way to construct variant<int, int, std::pair<int, int>>
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Super Silly Dorks
 
@KerrekSB Again, it "works", but you can't make a variant with an A in the third slot.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes I see.
 
There's no constructor that allows it: it goes by type.
 
7:25 PM
ok, the drive firmware has been left to its own devices for 30 minutes, time to power cycle it, according to the Crucial tech support
 
I wonder why they don't have a TMP thingy to uniquify the parameter list.
 
cya soon
oh wait, this old windows install is still doing updates
 
@Luc are you reimplementing recursive variants? Or is that too much?
 
@BenVoigt always nice
 
@sehe oh, I misunderstood this as SSD's don't have fragmented files. I figured it out. It is fragmented, but that doesn't hinder anything. In fact, defragmenting hinders the drive. Bizzare.
 
7:27 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes Not planned right now.
I think would still stick to Boost.Variant for that. My original impetus was that Boost.Variant is not move-aware.
 
@sehe you should have seen when I was attempting multi-processing in a python program, things got silly :D
 
@MooingDuck right on
@Hoxieboy more sillyness is good
 
@LucDanton Exactly what I imagined :) I thought of doing it because of that before, but the variants I'm using are recursive, and that sure sounds painful :(
 
@sehe I also think that the clicking might be my cpu -.-
 
@CatPlusPlus Can I write the succession game on the wiki?
 
7:30 PM
@Hoxieboy -.-
 
^lol
 
You don't have to ask me for permission to write on the wiki. Just keep it legal and stuff.
 
laptops only have SSDs then?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Right now I'm imagining that the implementation concept isn't hard (use a recursive_variant tag that 'decays' to std::unique_ptr<variant> as a member), but I think the devil is in the detail.
 
@Hoxieboy no, but some do. My laptop has a standard disk
 
7:31 PM
@Hoxieboy No.
SSDs are still expensive.
 
HDDs are pretty big though, unless they've been minimized?
 
@Hoxieboy SSDs are generally about 20x more expensive per byte
 
@CatPlusPlus almost bought 120GB for 108 EUR today
@Hoxieboy -.-
 
@Hoxieboy Laptop HDDs are smaller than "regular" HDDs.
 
@CatPlusPlus patriotmemory.com/products/… <-- this one. Decided I didn't really need it, though
 
You guys are talking to a kid who has a dell optiplex and an acer aspire 3000 that can barely support 2d, gimme a break lol
 
Which is true: I own 4 SSDs and about 10TB in other disks
 
@Hoxieboy Laptop HDDs are usually like the third from right (2.5 inches) and the "regular" ones are fourth from the right (3.5 inches)
 
@Hoxieboy SSDs work magic there. It makes the system more snappier as frequently the CPU isn't the bottleneck for responsiveness
 
7:35 PM
@sehe holy... I have a single 200GB drive and that's it. Well, and a 80GB drive for backups
 
@MooingDuck 20 gb hd :D
 
I have 500 usable GB and about 2TB of broken drives.
 
@Hoxieboy you only have 20GB? That's not even enough for World of Warcraft anymore...
 
@MooingDuck Mmm. I work on my workstation which is 2x30GB SSD. I have a backup machine with 8TB (contains family backups as well) - way overdimensioned
 
I carry a HD breaking aura or something.
 
7:36 PM
@MooingDuck yes.
 
THe rest is in laptop etc
 
@Hoxieboy wow
 
I have a lot of broken HDDs at home.
 
@MooingDuck Oh and an external enclosure to hold my Windows VM safely quarantained
 
@MooingDuck no pity-parties lol
 
7:37 PM
Smallest are 1GB.
 
@CatPlusPlus My wife does a pretty good imitation of a broken record. Does that count?
 
it takes at least 12 hours for a virus scan to complete a full scan on my computer
 
On 20GB?
 
@sehe And you hope she's not reading this, right?
 
(^^ disclaimer - not all the time, of course)
 
7:38 PM
@CatPlusPlus yes
 
@RMartinhoFernandes (^^^)
 
Bad news: your drive is dying, or will be dying in near future.
 
Good news: you got advance warning.
 
@CatPlusPlus I think its simply because it has 446 mb of ram, and most of the hd is full
 
@RMartinhoFernandes risk everything for the joke :)
 
7:38 PM
and one cpu :P
 
Not really.
But still, 20GB drive is what, 10 years old?
It will die soon.
That's not even "if", it's "when".
 
@CatPlusPlus its never been used lol, the BIOS locked the computer till I cracked it
 
@CatPlusPlus Who are you kidding, everyone knows hard drives can't possibly last a decade.
 
Well, if it were sitting on a shelf, it might still work after a decade.
 
in fact, thats the reason why the darn thing's been given to me :)
lemme check the space of C:/, brb
 
7:42 PM
@KerrekSB There! I hacked it: ideone.com/EZrGy
 
It's amazing that after all these years, hard drive technology is still around the failure rate of printers.
 
Refactoring: Lets assume I have a function that, first allocates some memory and then in the end it deletes the previously allocated memory. For performance reasons it starts with uninitialised memory. Would you use use a previously declared vector or would you roll your own vector class that can handle uninitialised values?
 
vector::reserve
 
how would you get the total space of a drive using the command prompt? lol my questions I swear
 
7:43 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes mine do - not in heavy use though
 
@MooingDuck That's not that good. The buffer returned is not guaranteed to have as much space as you asked for.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes right, nevermind me. I didn't think through his problem.
 
Performance reasons suck.
 
@Hoxieboy What command prompt? Windows?
 
:)
 
7:44 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes yes
 
@mantler I doubt initializing the vector is a performance bottleneck. Make it static and initialize as normal.
 
augh keyboard !@CatPlusPlus lemme see if there is a parameter for dir
 
The only issue I have with vector is that my work mate always uses his own home grown vector class because his can start with size x of unitialised values.
 
Just dir.
It prints free space in the footer.
 
7:46 PM
I need total space though
free + used?
XD
 
Just look in the Explorer, geez.
 
@MooingDuck I know. But his arguments are that why should we have to initialize the whole vector to 0 if we are changeing it stright away.
 
You'd know by now.
 
std::vector<int> v; v.reserve(10000); Follow up with push_back or back_inserter or something.
 
@CatPlusPlus just wondering for the command line, 27.9 gb total
 
7:47 PM
@mantler Slap him for introducing bugs into the codebase.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes Yes! But the he studders and says that he wants to random access the whole thing of unitialized values!
 
You can't access uninitialised values.
 
@mantler because it's faster and safer?
 
They don't exist.
 
:)
 
7:48 PM
Safer?
Why would anyone want to use uninitialised values?
 
from Windows command line, chkdsk, and from linux, df -h
 
It is not safe at all.
 
No kidding.
 
Writing a Russian roulette crash simulator?
 
He just argues with performance for a silly corner case!
 
7:49 PM
Slap him harder.
He's a silly corner case.
 
Lol!
 
@mantler if it's static, it only gets initialized once anyway, and it takes like no time at all.
 
Yes. That is another good point.
 
If it's a smallish vector of PODs, allocating memory is way more expensive than initialising it, anyway.
 
What is the O notation for new/delete?
 
7:51 PM
Not defined.
 
Ok.
 
It involves a roundtrip to OS.
 
@mantler actually, RMartinhoFernandes is right, why do you want them uninitialized? They're useless, so just initialize them to whatever the first time. A custom iterator is what you want
 
@sehe ding
 
7:52 PM
@CatPlusPlus Not with any sane memory manager.
 
If uninitialised values were a good idea, we'd have null on pretty much every modern programming language. Oh... Shit, my argument is blown by bad design decisions in modern programming languages.
 
@CatPlusPlus I don't think so for most cases
 
@Hoxieboy bored?
 
@sehe yes :s
 
@MooingDuck the argument is that he wants random access for the whole uninitialized array.
 
7:53 PM
@BenVoigt Well, ok, not always.
 
@mantler he is wrong.
 
Yes.
 
@mantler Tell him that's a bug.
 
@sehe I've become so bored, that I'm searching wikipedia for random topics, and reading about those topics, or learning russian, does that sound like a good plight?
 
@Hoxieboy I can recommend a few porn sites
 
7:53 PM
@mantler So, he wants an array with holes?
 
@mantler A custom iterator can do anything he's going to use that hypothetical uninitialized array for anyway, and do it as fast, and safer. Do that
 
@sehe, no energy, rofl.
 
@Hoxieboy stumbleupon.com
 
I am trying to persuade him to start using vector. There are ** all over the place in the implementation of the vector class. makes me uncertain.
 
@MooingDuck tropes, reddit, stackoverflow
 
7:54 PM
Oh, he's a two-star programmer.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes of vector?
@mantler Trust the vector. The guys who made it were smart
 
Yes I do.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes gah, you almost got me. I clicked it and everything.
 
lol, I didn't even disguise it.
 
sbi
7:55 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes A TVTropes link! Let's flag it!
 
@sehe "Мне нужен подгузник!" Yes! I understand you need a diaper, but why?
 
@Hoxieboy Are you sure you want to know why?
 
@RMartinhoFernandes knowledge is power
 
@Hoxieboy Ignorance is strength.
 
@Hoxieboy -.-
 
7:57 PM
Why make a The Matrix reference when you can make a 1984 reference?
 
Helicopter is bananas.
 
@RMartinhoFernandes because the matrix is cooler :D
 
But The Matrix references are overused.
 
@CatPlusPlus Helicopter s are bananas
 
@Hoxieboy No.
 
7:59 PM
@RMartinhoFernandes what about Monty Python (I totally typed Monanas :/)
 
sbi
@Hoxieboy In my book, that's a strong argument against something.
 
Monanas are good.
 
@CatPlusPlus one helicopter could not possibly be multiple bananas?
 
@Hoxieboy Ye of little faith.
 
@sbi Why are you talking about C++?
 

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